In a recent FH magazine they showed a method of deck building using basically two ledger boards seperated by either SS washers or PT plywood cut in strips. Was to provide air gap for drying if I remember. Article said joist should never be attached to ledger board on house. Joist should be attached to rim joist that I called the second ledger board. I moved my deck off for remodeling the house and am moving sections back. By doing this, the double ledger boards work best. In future builds, I am concerned that the double ledger method is expensive and unnecessary. Your thoughts?
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I bought a house with a brand new deck on a brand new addition, and within 4 years I had to tear it all apart because it was rotting out the house. I removed both 2x12 ledgers from the house and replaced them with pressure treated. Then I put on flashing and another piece of pressure treated for the deck ledger board. That's working good for me.
I built another addition and just used pressure treated ledgers all the way around. Put a deck on that the same way. I thought about making the gap with washers or whatnot, but I've found around here a gap like that gets filled up in one spring with pollen, pollen carrying devices, and seeds of all manner of trees. Then the carpenter ants set up housekeeping in that nice wet crevice. They don't really hurt anything, but it is a little creepy.
The idea that a little stack of washers is going to help something stay dry is just wishful thinking. Now, I must note that I also build at least a 4' overhang wherever a deck meets my house. It doesn't keep it bone dry, but I think it really helps. Without the overhang, and living in a pasture instead of a forest, I might think harder about spacers. A deck will sure rot out your house. Fast, too.
"The idea that a stack of little washers is going to help something stay dry is just wishful thinking"???
Where the hell did you learn to build? Giving poor advice is one thing.........but saying an improved building method is just wishful thinking deserves a bit of attention!
BR......that advice is BS. I ain't gonna sit here and let this place become Martha Stewarts new hangout! Jeff Genius has it's limits.....but stupidity knows no bounds
I'm sorry, I was speaking specifically of my circumstances. It's wishful thinking because where I live it would get crammed full of pine straw and pollen gunk and defeat the purpose of the air space. I thought I was clear that I would consider it useful when there weren't trees directly overhead.
I still think it would be really hard to thread the washers on a lag screw. That must work best on carriage bolts. The plywood spacers seems doable.
I'm sort of flattered by the Martha Stewart comparison, even though I'm pretty sure you didn't mean it that way. She's just about my favorite billionaire.
I'll try to refrain from posting, though. You're right that I'm not an expert. I just have too much time on my hands and they type quite fast.
B
Agreed. I've used the washer method, but generally use strips of 1/2" PT plywood with the tops pointed.. I live in a somewhat damp climate and have done a lot of rot repairs where decks were built flush to a house, creating a moisture trap.
Creating the gap can be a trap for debris, but if debris is gathering there, it's probably getting between deckboards and other crevises. That's what power washers are for.
A flush ledger also creates a spot for doghair, tree needles, and other cooties to build up, but I consider it undesireable because water, with nowhere to go, can start wicking up behind the siding and putting out the welcome mat for all kinds of critters that like to eat houses.
I'll argue for washers or PT spacers, flashings, etc. any day of the week and I refuse to build a deck in my locale without employing them.
Way to go Jeff!!! I was wondering the same thing my self,,,one thing we have been using latley is a 3'' wide rubber flashing with a peal off backing,,you just stick it on and lay it in like roofing, we use this if we are going against wood, The Ledger thing alltogether I dont under stand,,the deck can be free standing, no need to go into the the house at all,I am thinking it is the way you got into building,,if you started diging footings,and framing walls,or just got into it somehow after the High Teck job just dident work out. John Hyatt deckmastersllc.com
I've been rippin decks off of houses for a little while and only found a few discrepencies from the original installation.
1.You can't canterlever a deck from interior floor joists unless they're treated
2.You can't slap a ledger over the siding
3.You can't flash over decking, you have to flash over the ledger.
Now for those of you that want a freestanding deck next to the house but not touching the house to save on flashing and lag bolts,please tell me how much cross framing and diagonal bracing you have to do to take the SWAY out of a second story deck.Talk about an eyesore.
What are we trying to accomplish with a space between the deck and the house siding?
1.wetter siding?
2.dirtier lower windows?
3.A place to lose marbles and high heels?
Cut-flash-lag-and build,what's the problem?
Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
I did not read the artical in FHB but I do know that if you gap, make sure that the gap is well over 1/4". Any gap under that distance is subject to capilary action. In other words the drop of water will not drain freely. Good luck
I'm not much of a deck builder, so call me "ledger challenged". What exactly do you mean by the "washer method" and all that?
I was under the impression that a SINGLE treated ledger was supposed to be bolted to the house. Then flashing was supposed to be applied that started up under the siding, then went over the ledger board and down to keep water from getting in there and rotting stuff.
So I don't have a clue what you guys are talking about.
Where are we going, and what am I doing in this handbasket?
Boss, imagine you did all you describe. Now, instead of simply securing the joist to the ledger board you have installed correctly, you fasten another, same size, ledger board to the first ledger board space out a 1/4 inch. The joist hangers are secured to the second ledger board. At the price of 10" good grade PT, this will add substantial cost. My question, is this method the correct method, does it pay. I think one posting talked about replacing non PT ledger with PT ledger. That's a no brainer. I am still not certain the double ledger will improve the long term performance.
So I gather the theory behind the second ledger and the gap is so moisture and debris fall through the crack instead of collecting there?
Seems like you'd also need more bolts or bigger sizes, since they're under a lot more stress.
Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time.
Thinking about it more, I know of at least two ways to install deck boards. On top of the ledger or flush with the top of the ledger so the ledger hides the end grain. A 2X4 PT nailer is nailed to the ledger 5/4 or 1 1/2 below the top of the ledger. Don't know if one method is preferable for this discussion. If the joist are 90 degrees to the ledger the joist hangers would necessitate more punctures of the ledger board with less control of the holes and butment (is that a word?) of the joist to the ledger. In the FB article the PT spacer had tarpaper (must be a regional term, haven't seen it on this site much) against the ledger mounted on the house. Other than the FH article, I haven't seen any written material using double ledgers. Don't think I will use the double ledger unless someone convinces.
It was my impression that the original poster was counting the rim joist as the first ledger, so in my half-heimer's infested mind there was only one ledger board and that was the ledger for the deck. If that's the case, it's really only a choice of construction method to attach a deck to a house in such a way that the non PT structure of the house is isolated from the elements.
One of the posts concisely described what is probably the most common way to properly attach a deck and that is with a flashing up under the siding and stepped over the ledger board. Specifically in my area, which has lots of vegetation and tons or rain and wind at times, I prefer to flash the rim joist, install spacers at the bolt locations for the ledger, then build the damned deck. To be honest, I don't know which method is best and I really don't care as long as the main structure is protected. Decks are relatively simple to build, maintain and repair. Houses are not always so.
check out this web site
http://http://www.deckbracket.com
mr.T
Do not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
Edited 6/13/2002 8:33:09 PM ET by Mr T
Edited 6/13/2002 8:40:53 PM ET by Mr T
I had a structrual engineer strongley recomend that you do not attach the leger to the house. His design showed posts and beams (and foundations) 3' from the house. The joists cantilever towards the house. No addtional load on the house and no flashing issues for a minimal cost.
I like the idea of no ledger board. Also like the looks of well designed king beams with canti'ed joist. Seems the house would lend some lateral? stiffness that would have to be designed into a dual king beam design.
hah, hah, hah...if it's a gap it'd better be a big gap...more on the nature of 1/2"...
me.. either flash it right .. or use the posts next to the house... not 3' away...the structural engineer must not have been using 60 lb/sf.. which is code design for decks....
gap 'em if you want... but it's not in my bag of tricks...anymore.. we used to use 1" galv pipe nipples for spacers .. they worked pretty good.. but flashing works betterMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hmm. The engineer designed the deck and it was permited (2x12's @ 16" o.c.). The canitlever was 1/4 of the span and the gap at the house was 3/4". Sounds good to me especialy since the deck has been in place for five years now and at the decks christing over 60 people were on it with out a bounce.
Install single ledger.
Install flashing 6-8" up wall, bent at approx. 15 degree angle over top of ledger with 1" lip down face of ledger.
Install joists 1/2" higher than ledger.
Has always worked for me.
Cliff
Pro-Bob-Dek sir,
I really like using the Maine deck brackets. You said, way back when, that your local code would not allow them. I don't understand why not. Is it a strength issue? if so you could certainly reduce the spacing of the brackets and/or beef up the ledger.
The trouble with flashing is that it is much harder to do it right. Most non-professionals(PC term for hacks) don't want to mess with the siding, or do a proper job around/under a door. this is where the problems start. In snow country I feel you can't have a big enough gap at the house/ deck. Some people don't realize that they should shovel the snow away from their house.
I'm sure you have had good success with your methods. Form the photos and advice you post I see can see you are THE man! I am just curious about your codes and such.
When I first saw those brackets I said "This guy is gonna be rich".
Now I'm wondering why they haven't caught on.
Mr TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
Those "T" brackets are pretty cool, and you might get them to pass by putting them closer together, but they look more time consuming than cutting and flashing the ledger to the house,which really is not that hard to do . Have you ever used them? How much do they cost? Can you give me the link to that sight again? Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
http://www.deckbracket.com
Do not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
Edited 6/15/2002 1:36:36 PM ET by Mr T
Hey Pro Deck, Mr. T....
I don't think you are saving a thing by using the Maine bracket device you posted. First off, you gotta remove the existing siding, which is what you would normally do anyway. Secondly, you have to bolt this bracket to the house rim joist, which is what you do with a normal ledger. Then you have to double the ledger for strength when bolting onto the bracket, cause it's acting more like a header beam than a ledger beam when it comes to stress factors.
You really gain nothing by using the Maine bracket. You have to buy these buggers, double the ledger material , and still make the same siding cut-outs and bolt-ons. The ONLY THING you don't have to do is install flashing. Flashing is easy to do, and a lot cheaper than the combined cost of the brackets and extra ledger material and extra bolts.
It's a gimmick...plain and simple.
Davo
Davo,
How do you flash under a door when attach your ledger directly to the house?
How do you do it when a customer wants a minimal or no step down from the interior floor?
Do you take the door out and detail the flashing properly to insure that snow and rain will not backup under the door?
I don't know where your from, but in snow country, decks and doors leading out to them(I've never seen a deck w/o a door to it) are probably the major cause of rotten sills and floors.
The brackets provide a good place for water to safely drain away from the building. with a bolt-on ledger to often the decking get placed too close to the building. There has to be a physical gap at the deck/house junction for proper drainage. 1" is probably a good minimum.
Even with proper flashing, you will have your siding and door trim sitting in snow ice and rain. Capillary action will wick up the water and cause all kinds of problems.
These brackets are not a perfect solution but IMO they solve a lot more problems than they create. And after all doing things right always takes a little more time and effort and expense.
Mr TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
Mr. T
You make a good point.
I always leave a minimum of 1 inch drop in height between deck and door threshold.
You do not have to remove the door to flash ( though you could if you wanted). You do however remove the threshold. Some unitsrequire you to cut the threshold out and then you replace with an aftermarket type. Many have adjustable rubber seals that can be adjusted to keep rain water out.
You could attach a simple door sweep, which will do the same thing.
The fact that my deck drops a 1 inch minimum, coupled with the facts that the deck is pitched (ever so slightly) away from the house, and I normally do flash and /or retrofit the door's threshold; water infiltration has not been a factor for me.
As for snow, if it's a heavy, wet snow, and it happens to blow into drifts, that 1 inch space away from the house that you allow for is not gonna stop snow from eventually accumulating under your doorstep. My 1 inch drop is not gonna stop the snow drifts either. But, good flashing and a good designed threshold will keep the interior floor dry.
As for trim, my 1 inch drop keeps water from puddling underneath it. Sealing the bottom edge grain also helps to keep moisture from wicking up the ends. Do I do these things I mention? You bet I do! Will it stop all aspects of Mother Nature? No, it will not. But it will help .
I don't anticipate using the Maine bracket ( or any similar type bracket) any time soon, but one never knows.
You are right when saying most decks have doors leading to them...absolutely. The other common feature that has been present in nearly every deck I have built or been associated with, was that there was nearly always a porch roof stoop or a full blown porch roof covering the door entrance. Porch coverings speaks "volumes" when it comes to protecting entryways. BTW, we too do get snow here in Pittsburgh, PA region.
Good luck on your deck projects Mr. T
Davo
Davo,
Some thing is wrong.
We had an intelligent, respectful exchange of ideas, and nobody got insulted or put down, or any of that fun stuff!!!
The Apocalypse is upon us!!!
Keep up the good work!!
Mr. T
I made up some "Be kind rewind" stickers. I put them on all the DVD's I rent.
Do not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
I wore out my last DVD player rewindin them things.Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
I like to listen to "books on tape" when traveling. Recently went to "books on CD" using a portable CD player plugged into tape player. Caught myself figuring out how to rewind the thing to start......
Davo way to go,,the first time I saw these brackets on deckweb.com, I knew they were the bigest waste of money I have seen,,with the possible execption of the goverment removal of twist lock cord ends,,,the right flashing, and basic framing, will stop the problems I have ever run into,,one thing I am using now is a flashing like ruber tape,a ruber tape, in the right place it helps,but man those maine brackets are totaly a marketed,targeted item, like those warshers are going to keep anything dry,,ghessssss John Hyatt deckmastersllc.com
I looked again at the FHB article. The article did indeed advocate two ledger boards seperated by spacers. The article used a different term for the inner PT ledger. The called it a "water table". So, from the inside you have sill joist? (or is it called the sill plate?) , plywood wall sheating, water table, spacers and ledger. Water table is flashed and siding to the flashing.