I am getting ready to replace cedar siding. I seem to remeber hearing that it is better to wrap the sheathing in felt paper. Is this so?
If I use felt , are roofing nails ok, and should I tape the seams? What about a hammer tacker fro securing the felt??
Thanks
John
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Replies
no need to tape the seams- the felt is somewhat self-sealing.
and a hammer tacker is what I use to install tar paper all the time- the staples only have to hold it in place until you get the siding on.
my experience has shown that tyvek actually promotes dry-rot in the wall sheathing and on into the wall cavity, in some areas, especially wet coastal areas. (it's not a real vapor barrier - only an air infiltration barrier. on the other hand tap paper (30 lb ) has always worked well.
Felt.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
JohnHens,
My city wants us to use Tyvek I'm building with Black walnut on the outside and it reacts like Cedar (in that the tannins in it attack the plastic in Tyvek) my solution was to use tyvek and then cover it with Felt..
I'm also annal enough that I used stainless steel staples on the Felt .
We've (I believe) established here that the "tannins attack Tyvek" story is an urban myth.--------------
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
A builder I sub from has a country club- club house, that has this problem.Excellent builder, never short cuts, anything. I don't think it is a myth.
Greg in the Suburbs of connecticut
when was that established ?
i don't remember any urban myth discussion about tanins and tyvekMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Not sure it was established, but the thread was about 3 weeks ago. For me it is still a question mark. There were some strong insinuations in a few JLC articles from some of those building science type guys, but no conclusive evidence was offered.
Matt,Here we go again with the Tyvek issue. I'll give you the link. Like I said a million times before if tyvek can't be used under cedar they would ban it everyhwere. Right?http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=63362.8Joe Carola
My 2 cents on Tyvek.I built my house in 1984 and the exterior is about 1/2 brick veneer and 1/2 white pine vertical board and batten siding. We decided to give the house a "facelift" this year along with a new roof, by installing horizontal vinyl siding on wood area. Am removing the wood siding to keep the vinyl flush with the foundation plane. The Tyvek under the wood is all to pieces.....literally......and what couldn't be torn when I put it up originally, now tears like tissue paper. I am NOT impressed with it to say the least and will be using felt paper back in it's place.The Tyvek was not exposed to the elements for very long before the orignal wood was installed. The wood has been stained 2 times since the intial stain, each time using Sherwin Williams wood preservative solid color stain. There was no water penetration damage under the siding, wood was in good shape.
I don't think so. Read Paul Fisette's article from several years back in JLC. Tannins do attack both housewraps and felt. Felt, according to Fisette, lasts longer because it's thicker.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
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None of this matters in geological time.
You can use Tyvek or Felt if you want.There's no prove but a couple pictures here and there and a couple articles here and there about tannins from cedar eating away at tyvek.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=63362.8
I can't seem to locate the pics where it was eaten away.
Is it possible bugs ate it? I didn't get to see the extent of damage purported. But I know here where I live roaches will eat the backing off fiberglass, felt, and any other thing in their path.
I'm serious. I have seen roach droppings 6" thick between studs.
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WWPD
This may be a dumb question, but what would be wrong with using rosin paper? Myy 100 year old house has it under the siding and it has held up very well. The more recent stuff out there would seem to be even better.
Old house fan,
Rosin paper is fine if kept dry during the install period and assuning that no rain eaver leaks past the siding..
Felt paper and Tyvek do two differant things. Tyvek helps to seal up a house (thats why the need to Tape seams) and Tar paper helps in shedding rain.. It's a back up if you will.
Rosin paper is fine if kept dry during the install period and assuning that no rain eaver leaks past the siding..
Felt paper and Tyvek do two differant things. Tyvek helps to seal up a house (thats why the need to Tape seams) and Tar paper helps in shedding rain.. It's a back up if you will.
I suppose that makes sense, but I have 4" beveled siding, 100 years old, and I'm sure water has gotten behind it and it's still intact. I guess it just stops the water from penetrating further and dries out after the rain is over.
I have 7/8" shiplap sheathing behind the siding so I guess it didn't really need a lot. I'm also putting foam in the walls, so I don't see a need for Tyvek. I'm thinking 15" felt might be the best solution.
Rosin paper is pretty common west of say, Omaha, in those places where it doesn't rain much. I've never seen it on old houses in NJ, PA, or CT, though. And I rather doubt that it's code approved.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Andy, I've seen rosin paper a number of times on old houses I've worked on, in the Plainfield, NJ area.
Generally, the red rosin paper is old and crumbly,, but its been in place at least 100 years.
Have personally seen tyvek eaten up by cedar siding, not a myth...http://www.shelladditions.com
Seems like an easy way to check. I will put a piece of tyvek on the back of my shed then a peice cedar over it.I will seal around the edge of
both the Tyvek and the cedar with silicone and then wait a couple months
to see what happens. I will wet the cedar down with water once in awhile
to help leach the acids out.We will wait and see.
I hope there isnt a problem with it,Cause I got alot og cedar trim over
Tyvek on my own house!
Rob Teed
Dream Builders
I've seen failed tyvek on 3 cedar homes, the last one was the newest, about 12 years old, Tyvek was crispy and fell apart like it was dried out.http://www.shelladditions.com
robteed,
Your appraoch only lacks the proper time element.. a few months won't make any real effect, several years at a minimum and a few decades is closer to see the real effects.. I mean it's not like battery acid, the tannins form a weak acid and ned a lot of soaking to have effects..
Frenchy, Tyvek is every bit as much a drainage layer as is felt. I don't think its value as an air block is that great, but it does drain water.
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Andy,
If you are a Tyvek fan, you'll probably appreciate their new product, Drainwrap, which is designed to address the drainage plane issue.
Advocate
I wouldn't say I'm a fan... But that product is intersting. I very much like the idea of capillary breaks.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
"This may be a dumb question, but what would be wrong with using rosin paper? Myy 100 year old house has it under the siding and it has held up very well. The more recent stuff out there would seem to be even better."
I have not had the same sort of luck with paper. If you test is, the stuff holds a lot of water.
I believe the paper was intended to be a wind barrier back when houses had skip sheathing and no insulation.
Felt makes for a secondary drainage plane.
For an old house in particular, I would suggest a rain screen design. This keeps any moisture migrating from behind from pushing the paint off, and prevents claps from warping.
The simplest rainscreen for clapboards can be formed by running strips of felt the length of each stud, and nailing there.
I've been trying to decide the same thing for my own house that my wife & I are building. I kept going back & forth, but I'm going to go with felt because as I've been driving around I've seen several houses in our area wrapped w/ Tyvek & within a few days it was shredded (we had some pretty bad wind & rain this past week).
However, all the houses I saw with felt (including my neighbor's who has been residing his house all summer long) were fine.
I guess it's not a big deal if your going to have it covered quick, but for any long term exposure, it seemed like the houses wrapped in felt were holding up better.
If exposed Tyvek gets shredded it's because it wasn't properly fastened down. Builders will commonly just staple it to the sheathing, and not too securely at that. In any sort of wind the staples pull out. They are more conscientious about stapling the felt because it comes in narrower pieces, it's heavier and needs more staples to just stay up, and they know it's prone to ripping.In general, if loose ends of the Tyvek are secured (when left exposed for a period of time) with a piece of lath, then it will stay on fine. Likewise if washer nails are used instead of staples. Properly taped seams are also pretty safe.--------------
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
That's true - it could be more a reflection on how it's fastened than the quality of the material.
That said, I've also heard that Tyvek is prone to UV decay (some have recommended Typar for longer exposures - like mine since it will likely be a while before I can get the siding up)
One modular home a few miles away from me had Tyvek on it but the siding wasn't put up for the whole summer & it fell apart - agian not sure if this was a fastening issue or an exposure issue. They ended up repalcing with felt - but still no siding - not sure what their waiting for - they built their detatched garage before putting the siding on - I guess he's using it for a workshop.
felt
tyke
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