It was suggested that I start a thread showing the progress on my husband and I’s major home renovation. It involves a large addition plus a major remodel of the existing house. This is our first time building anything and we decided to be our own general contractor. We are using a building consultant called UBuildit to help us avoid mistakes along the way. (Please check out the UBuildit.com website or the UBuildit post in General Discussion for specifics, I don’t want to have to go through all the questions again! )
Basically we are renovating the house from an 1100 sq. ft. 1-1/2 story bungalow to a 2700 sq. ft. Greek Revival style Farmhouse with an attached garage.
Here is a picture of our house before the project started. The addition will go on the left side and will be 2 stories. The existing house will not change structurally on the outside except that the gable/peak off the front of the roof will be removed and a shed roof will be added to make a covered front porch instead.
The whole house will be re-sided with white vinyl siding. The trim will be wood painted white.
I also attached a few pictures to show approximately what our house will look like when it’s finished. Not the color, but the style and shape of the house should be similar to these when it’s done.
I will post more progress pictures in the next post.
-Kacy
Edited 2/7/2005 11:54 am ET by kcmarie122
Replies
Here are the pictures of the excavation of the basement and the basement footings being poured.
In the footings pictures, you can see where the underpinning was occuring. Basically, they dug out under the old footing so they could pour new concrete underneath and pin it to the old footing.
I also added a few pictures to show you the "fun" experience of having a cement hauler bottom out in your front yard! Luckily we had cement hauler #2 around to pull #1 out.
The company told us they were afraid of damaging our asphalt driveway with their big trucks so they asked (two weeks beforehand) if they could use our front lawn instead. Little did we know that we would get a big thaw a day or two before they came out. Well, this was the result. Needless to say, they ended up using the driveway anyway and it was fine.
I wish they would've just come up the driveway the first time. We're going to have to get the driveway resurfaced when we're all done anyway!
Oh well, you live and learn!
-Kacy
Here are the last two photos I took. One shows the basement walls after they were poured. The second shows the basement walls with the waterproofing applied and braced so they could backfill.
Last week they did the trench footings and the cement block work for the garage and the front porch. I didn't get any pictures of that yet. We just moved out of the house and in with my in-laws this past weekend. Tomorrow the rough carpenters get started on the framing of the addition and my husband and I get started on the demo in the existing house so that should be fun! (well the framing will be fun to watch but I have the feeling the demo work is going to suck!)
Any tips on tearing out stuff would be appreciated! We are tearing out drywall walls and ceilings, plaster walls and ceilings, carpet, hardwood flooring, and linoleum (and I'm sure a lot more but that's all we can see at this point). I did read a good thread on tearing out plaster last week that I printed out for reference.
Thanks!
-Kacy
Thanks for starting this thread. It looks like a nice project. The greek revival style is a good choice. But I have a soft spot for front porches.
Have fun.
Kc
Looks like you have a good start.
I like the Greek revival look as well.
Livin with the in-laws huh! That would motivate me to work harder. :) What the hell am I saying, mine are coming to stay with us for 6 weeks.
Keep the pictures coming.
Doug
Kacy,That foundation looks about 1/32 out of square from here ..........are you sure you got a good mason....;-).Just kidding please forgive me pretty please...Seriuosly looks good so far keep posting the pictures especially the framing. Hope everything go well for you.BTW, As the GC you have to sweep the street clean of the mud. At least around here in NJ anyway.Joe Carola
Looks pretty good.
Waht about perimeter drains before backfilling it? I don't see that the existing house had any foundation drains but this is a full basement. You don't want it to become a swimming pool.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yup, the perimeter drains were all in place before backfilling. I'm not sure about the old/existing basement though. We have a sump in the old basement and we will eventually have one in the new basement as well once the plumber starts his ground plumbing. I think the plumber will end up draining the old sump to the new sump since the new basement is deeper.
Kacy,Just curious as to who set the height of your foundation and in your picture where I circled in blue is that where someone opened the house to expose the existing floor joists?Usually the GC does this and goes over it with the mason for exact height. Believe me I seen it before where there off. Your house could be 2x8's and the new addition is 2x10's or 9-1/2" I-joist or 2x12's or 11-7/8" I-joists and they have to line up at the top of the existing so therefore your foundation has to be lower.If you have a good mason and he knows exactly what the floor joist will be and knows that for example if you were using I-joists they measure 11-7/8" where 2x12's measure anywhere from 11-1/4" - 11-1/2" plus your sills if using two or one. This all has to be taken in consideration when figuring the top of your foundation. Your better off being a little low than to being to high.Were you there the day the height of the foundation was set? Joe Carola
Edited 2/7/2005 8:17 pm ET by Framer
You were right Joe, that is where we measured to set the height of the foundation. We tried to get it right on but we think it ended up being a little low so our framer will have to work with it to get the new floor level with the old.
No, we were not there when they poured the walls and but they did get it pretty darn close. We had already discussed the details so they knew what to do.
And you were also right about the different floor joists. Our existing house has 2 x 6's and our addition will have 2 x 10's. We definitely factored that into the equation. UBuildit actually was there with us and the foundation guys when we were trying to figure out the proper height of the new walls.
Good question though!
The biggest mistake we made with the foundation was we wanted windows in our new basement but our architect hadn't put them on the plans. We figured it was not worth the time and money to have them put them in and get the plans reprinted. We had mentioned to the foundation contractor that we wanted 2 windows in the basement but we never followed through with it completely.
Therefore, the foundation guys didn't block out the windows when they poured the walls (obviously, since they weren't in the plans). But that was our fault so we had to pay extra to have them cut out the window openings after the fact. Our framer will then frame in the windows. It wont look as pretty as if they were done right the first time but oh well. It was our mistake. We are trying to learn from these mistakes so we can avoid them later on in the project.
Thanks for your input though! Keep the comments coming!
-Kacy
Ok, I took some more pictures last night. These show the blockwork completed for our garage and front porch. Also some shots showing our lumber waiting to go.
Also, we started some of the interior demo last night so we have quite a mess on our hands now! Our dumpster is being delivered today so we will be able to haul all that drywall and trim out tonight. What a messy job, and it's only just begun!
-Kacy!
Demo work is fun. Swinging hammers, mauls, and using the Sawzall with 12" Ax blade like you're the Terminator.
Oh... nobody said I had to clean up the mess ;)jt8
Our lives improve only when we take chances -- and the first and most difficult risk we can take is to be honest with ourselves. -- Walter Anderson
Good thread. Keep em coming.Who Dares Wins.
Kacy,
Thanks for starting this thread. I was just looking at the UBuildit website and reading some of the recent post about them. I assume you are using the one that is located off of Van Dyke right? The owners name Moceri sounds very familiar... I bet Blue would know who it is.
Sounds like a good way to go is you want to be more hands on, of course it's not going to be for everyone, but sure is a great concept.
Thanks again for sharing all the detailed pics... I will definitely be tracking this thread.
If you don't mind saying here could you share the name of the Architect you used... if you don't want to post it could you send me a mail.
Thanks,
~Chad
Hey Chad,
No Problem, the architect we used was "The Design Group, LLC". They are located on Big Beaver Road in Troy, Michigan.
And oh yeah, I forgot to mention that Pete Moceri is the owner of the UBuildit franchise we're using. I think he's done a lot of building around this area for awhile but he just started this franchise.
-Kacy
Edited 2/8/2005 3:13 pm ET by kcmarie122
Kacy,Are you going to have a new fireplace like you show in the before and after pictures in your first post because I didn't notice a footings or any block work for the fireplace.Joe Carola
No, actually we're not going to be able to do a full masonry chimney like the one shown on the red house. It's just not in the budget! :( This fact just crushes my husband! He loves masonry chimneys! And it does look really amazing on that red house.
Instead, we are going to have a direct vent, see through fireplace in the middle of the existing house and will run the venting out the back side of the roof. We are thinking about doing a cultured stone chimney there above the roof to hide the vent pipe. But we'll have to see where the budget is when we get to that.
-Kacy
If Pete's not doing a good job, you let me know!
We love him to death up here....send my regards to he and Margie!
Edited 3/14/2005 12:52 pm ET by UBuildIt
Pete and George are doing a great job for us so far. We are really happy with how it's all working out. Now we are just excited to get further along in our project.
I will tell him you said hello!
Thanks, Kacy!
I'm re-posting this from another thread I started. It was suggested that I not start a new thread each time so I'm just adding these back to the original post.
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Hey Everyone,
I was able to scan in our floor plans and elevations the other day. The only problem is that they are a little hard to read. I made them as small as possible (for dial-up users) so it's hard to see the details. It's the best I could do.
The right elevation is the funkiest (if that's a word!) but you really can't see that side of the house very well since our neighbor's house sits a lot closer to the road on that side.
-Kacy
This is also from the other thread...
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Here are a few pictures of the framing progress! The last picture shows how we had to adjust for the foundation dimension error. Luckily our porch will cover most of it. We will have to put some flashing there to avoid getting leaks into the basement.
You can also see in that picture how they had to shim up the floor joists to get it even with the existing house.
-Kacy
hey... looks like you're good to go...
once you get your first floor deck on, what could possibly go wrong from here ?
(eternal vigilance.....)
my favorite technique is .. walk softly, speak softly... only raise your voice if they can't hear youMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Here's the latest pictures...The second floor exterior walls are up now. Today I think they will be working on the interior walls and tomorrow they are setting the trusses. I hope to maybe take the day off work tomorrow to get some pictures and video of that. It should be exciting.
It's amazing how much bigger it looks now that it's going up than what I had been envisioning from the plans!
The second two pictures show how the second story is cantilevered slightly over the garage.
Once they finish up framing the addition they will move into the existing house. They have to re-frame for all the new windows and doors, level the floors, take out a load bearing wall and put in an LVL. There's still lots more to do!
-Kacy
kc...
<<<The second two pictures show how the second story is cantilevered slightly over the garage>>>
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my definition of a slight cantilever would be about 1/3 the depth of the joist..(say 3" - 4" )
a large cantilever would be the depth of the joists ( say 10" )
your's is not slight
good progress , keep the pics commng
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 2/23/2005 1:00 pm ET by Mike Smith
I'm too lazy to go back and look at your plans.
The cantilever. All in the plan, right?
Love your housewrap. Around here, some of the architecture style is called "early Tyvek."
Ok, so it wasn't a "slight" cantilever! Wrong choice of words I guess! :)
And yes, it was all in the plans. The upstairs bedroom would have been a few feet too small for our tastes. By cantilevering it over the garage a few feet, we got the size we wanted without sacrificing garage space. That bedroom is now 13' x 11' instead of 13' x 9'.
Plus, I think it makes the side elevation look even better. I say that because in the plans we made the garage 2 ft longer than the standard 2-1/2 car garage size because we wanted an 18 ft wide garage door instead of a 16 ft. door If we would've kept the upstairs 2 ft. shorter, the garage would've looked a little wider than normal. I think it balanced it out well.
-Kacy
The carpenters got all the windows into the addition on Friday. They also started working on the trim on the front gable. It's really starting to take shape now.
This week they will be finishing up the addition and moving into the existing house. I can't wait until the new windows and doors go in the existing house too. Then the old vs. new wont be quite as obvious anymore.
Also still to be done is the shed roof off the front of the house for the covered front porch and the saddle roof in the back which connects the garage and back of the existing house.
Here's 2 of the latest pictures!
-Kacy
kc.. looking good..
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can you get some close ups of the cornice return details .. i always like to see how others handle thoseMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I noticed that cantilever too, but it seems as though it is not a loaded wall on it so probably fine. It is a decent looking place. Do you pre-wrap the Tyvek like that too? I have always wrapped after standing walls but that looks like one to take home to mama.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
paul... ahmmm.. ummmm
how to say this ?..
we don't use no stinkin tyvek..
and no.. we don't paper our walls in before we stand them.. though i guess we should.. just seems easier to do it as we install the siding..
then we can start at the bottom.. and we also get our window splines installed in the right sequence.. ah, you know all that Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, here is a method I like if the walls are housewrapped before the windows go in. It was a practice used by the framing sub on the first house I did as an owner-builder.
http://construction.tyvek.com/pdf/K02109StuccoBeforeInstall.pdf
The extra thing I had him do was to bed the top and side flanges of each window in butyl caulk. Never the bottom flange.
Maybe Kacy Marie can tell us how her guys flashed the windows on this project.
I now know why that style of foundation and framing looks similar to ours! It's in our backyard!
I remember thinking that the platform framing, and foundation looked exactly like stuff we do every day, when I saw the name Moceri and Van Dyke, I knew for sure. Moceri is a very big custom, wealthy builder around here. He owns commercial buildings, mobile home parks, apartment building and sells high end big customs.
I don't know if this particular Moceri is related, but I'd bet that there is some family connection. I'm fairly certain that Frank, my partner is "family". I think I remember him saying so..everyone of Italian heritage in Macomb is related....
Anyways, I'm surprised that you guys didn't jump up and down when you saw the windows set without that black stuff....
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
It's white, Blue. ;-)
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Nice looking house Gene.
What are you putting on the barrel ceiling over the porch?
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
There are a few photos at this site. http://www.homebydesignshowhouse.com/download/
One of them shows an indoor view of the screened porch. It's ceiling is a barrel vault, 19/6 radius, finished in e&cb 1x4, with indirect cove lighting running down each transition leg.
The roof will be done in seamed 16 oz. copper. Just over the eyebrow. The rest will be Iko 35 year asphalt archies.
So far so good.
Are those muddy footprints on the Tyvek? You got spiderman on the crew?
How are you insulating the cantilevered portion?
jt8
The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers. -- Walter Percy Chrysler
KC, I think I've framed a few houses that were drawn by The Design Group. I also do know about Moceri, but I've never framed for them. Years ago, my mother worked for a firm and did some accounting for them with regards to a mobile home park that they owned. Moceri is a trusted name.
I'm curious, what township/city are you in? It looks like Macomb county somewhere.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Hey Blue,
I didn't realize you were from around here. We actually live in Troy but the UBuildit office is in Shelby Township.
The owner's name is Pete Moceri and I'm pretty sure he's at least related to who you're thinking about. Pete was a builder for a long time and just recently decided to open a UBuildit franchise.
I'm glad to hear from others that Moceri was a trusted name. We had heard the same too when we transfer from the Troy UBuildit franchise to the Shelby Township franchise.
What is your company's name? You do framing work obviously! We are using Woodmaster's from Oxford for our framing. We're pretty happy with them so far. They have gone above and beyond for us several times.
-Kacy!
Kacy, we are Advanced Construction Concepts, LLC and yes we do framing all around the North oakland/macomb area. I did a lot of Troy framing in the Square Lake/Adams area back in the late 80'-early 90's. I haven't worked in Troy is a decade or so.
I don't know about Woodmasters, but their work looks typical from the pictures you've posted. The main thing is that you feel comfortable. That's a good thing.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Window trim went in yesterday and they are just starting to put the new windows in on the old side.
They also got started on putting up the corner boards but didn't finish yet. I think maybe it got a bit cold and windy out there yesterday.
I will work on getting more detailed shots of the cornice returns. We love how they are turning out.
-Kacy!
since that looks like #2 pine, i'm guessing it's going to have vinyl siding and your trim will be wrapped ?
i'd prefer a false sill instead of the picture frame as there is no rabbet to flash the siding
also.. it may be common practise.. but we would never trim without splines behind the trim ... including the corner boardsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You'll have to help me out. What is a rabbet? splines? I'm not familiar with those terms. Could we still add a false sill? Or is the picture frame and false sill style completely different?
And yes, we're doing vinyl siding with aluminum wrap. The only thing that wont be wrapped is the corner boards.
if you look at an old wood window.. the exterior sill will have a rabbet in the bottom ( groove) so the siding can go up into the groove.. this flashes the siding and covers the cut edge of the siding...
we commonly make our false sills out of Trex so they look like sills
your windows are picture framed.. so the trim doesn't look like a real window... a real window has a sill.. you have no sill.. the two methods of trimming are completely different
with a modern vinyl clad window.. the jambs are very narrow.. and the sill is almost non-existent.. the trim that you apply ( casings and sill ) are decorative.. but they really do affect the architectural style of the house..
i'm sure there is a detail on your plans of how the architect wanted the windows to look.. and i'll bet it ain't like that ..
as to the corner boards.. if they are not going to be wrapped, why are they unprimed and #2 pine... is that what was spec'd ?
splines.. any trim that goes on.. doesn't go on directly over the tyvek ( not in my detail book , anyways )...
the rough opening sill gets wrapped with Grace membrane
which goes over the tyvek..
there is a strip of grace overlapping the sill wrap and about 4 " - 6" wider than the decorative casing.. and there is a head spline that overlaps the nailing head flange, and the side splines.. and the tyvek gets slit and the head spline tucks under the tyvek..
then .. in your case, after the casing is wrapped, the aluminum wrap tucks under the tyvek also
your installation is not unusual.. it's just not very good.. but there may be something down the road having to do with the aluminum wrap and vinyl siding that is going to correct this...but i'd like to know what it is
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, when I think spline, I think "A thin piece of wood that fits in the mating grooves cut into two pieces of wood." Window spline in the context here seems to be something different. I followed Gene's link to the tyvek site and didn't see the term either. Can you define that term? What would a non-New Englander call it?
spline is also a little slip of felt paper or metal flashing slipped up and under.
Like splines at the butt seams in clap siding.
or ... splines running around the window for flashing.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Thanks. I've seen the felt behind a butt joint called a backer strip. The window stuff was always just flashing. Spline is a new term to me for these.
We've always called those 'slips' because whether made of 30# paper or AL, we slip them into place.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
These might help
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
blue.. glad you're enjoying the "Building with an Attitude".. i've heard him speak.. pretty sharp guyMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
paul.. went to the Ri Home Show tonite. ( RI Builders ).. guess who was wandering around ... dazed & confused as usual..
that's right..
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Guertin... and his lovely wife to make sure he got nome okMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Well, we followed up on the whole window flashing thing you guys pointed out. Apparently Blue was right and it's not exactly standard practice around here but definitely a better way of doing it. I have even taken more notice of several houses being built in our area and none of them have it either.
We also talked to UBuildit about it and they agreed that it would have been great to have had done but not completely necessary considering how we're going to do the siding with the window trim, and aluminum wrapped stuff.
That being said, they did also agree that the window flashing (like you guys were talking about) was still better a better system overall so it was up to us whether we wanted it or not. So we decided to see if the framer would at least put the tape around the outside of the windows. The framer understood why we wanted it and is going to take off all the trim and put the Flashing tape around everything after all. I know it's not the complete system (they are not taking out the windows to do the entire process) but it's better than what it was.
You guys will probably give us flack for accepting "less than the best." But we are trusting UBuildit that it is not really necessary and that the system we will have will still be a good one.
So after all that, not much has been done over the last couple of days. They got the porch on but that's about it. They've had a couple guys sick lately. It kinda sucks! Oh well!
Here's the latest picture with the porch.
Edited 3/8/2005 2:08 pm ET by kcmarie122
Here's some pictures of the cornice details I took last week!
I don't think it's quite done yet. I'll also post a picture of the house we're trying to replicate the gable trim on...it's the Clarkston picture.
I also posted a close up picture of the window trim. The architect actually had called out a 1 x 2 to go just along the bottom edge of the window, I guess to simulate a sill? What is your opinion? The 1 x 2 would go right over top of the bottom 1 x 6. Do you guys think that will help the window trim look better on the house?
Kacy
Here's a couple of posts that got started on another thread that would be good to attach to this thread. It was regarding our framer that went missing for two weeks. This wouldn't have been such a big deal but we paid them somewhat ahead of what work was done, against the advice of UBuildit and so we started to really worry.
Here's some of my discussion with Christi, a VP from UBuildit, who picked up on the thread...
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55539.35 in reply to 55539.31
Thanks Christi, They are definitely on it already. They've been trying to contact him too but haven't heard anything. I think that's in breach of some contract the owner signed with them. Now we're just waiting to see if they show up tomorrow like we were told.
Either way though, I can't imagine George or Pete recommending them to anyone else after all of this. I think my framer's burned that bridge already even if they do show up and finish the job eventually.
And by the way, we did finally hear from the owner this morning. He left us a message. He sounded a little irritated that we were so insistent on talking with him instead of being satisfied with talking to his lead carpenter. Well considering his lead carpenter has a cell phone that doesn't work, i.e. he calls us (like twice in 2 weeks), we can't call him, I don't see why he's surprised that we're ticked off. Also the fact that our house has been sitting totally stagnant for two weeks. Yup, I think we have a right to be pissed. A simple phone call 2 weeks ago telling us that for the next two weeks, we need to talk to the lead carpenter instead of him would have been sufficient. Then we could have bitched to him about why the other job was being finished before ours! Granted we still would have been annoyed that no work was getting done but at least we wouldn't have had the stress that we were getting totally screwed!
At even that is still in question...We'll see if they show up tomorrow.
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Christi's Response:
55539.36 in reply to 55539.35
Hey, Kacy,
UBuildIt consultants are not supposed to recommend that clients 'pay ahead' the trades. Of course, that means the loss of some serious performance leverage.
Did George, your consultant, tell you to do that? George has a lifetime of construction experience dealing with trades and should know better.
Please get back to me....
Christi
~Peace
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My Post Back:
55539.37 in reply to 55539.36
Actually George did caution me about it. He was immediately hesitant when I told him that the owner asked if we could pay some more money a little ahead of our agreed schedule.
But George has also been really good the whole time thus far about letting us make the final decisions. And he told us that we needed to evaluate our own comfort level with this company and if we felt comfortable, then that was our decision. He did suggest that if we decided to still give the company some money that we at least not give him as much as they originally asked for.
Well we took his advice and suggested a smaller amount to the owner but he came back with an "in between" figure that we said agreed to. This company really had been good to us up till that point and we felt like we could repay them the favor. We really had no reason to doubt them.
I guess the thing we didn't think about was that once you pay them for more than what they've done, you really do lose a lot of leverage in getting them out there. Not because their trying to screw you but because their "other job" probably isn't paying them up front (they obviously being smarter than us) so the framers want to get that job done pronto so they get more money.
The other thing that made the money even more sticky was that we also hired this same company to do our roof. Well they asked for 3K up front as a deposit to order the materials. We didn't even ask George about that one because we figured it was a no brainer. But that 3K along with the extra we gave him on the framing job adds up to a bit more than we're comfortable with now that they've been missing for two weeks.
It's sad that we are being taken advantage of because we truly are trusting people who like to return favors. We just assumed that because they were treating us so well that just because we did them a favor by giving them some advance money that they would stop treating us the same. We're still hoping they show up tomorrow but you are right in that we lost some serious performance leverage and that was a big mistake on our part.
Let's just say we learned a major lesson. It just sucks that we are going to have to be hard-as--es to all the rest of our subs down the road. No more favors....no matter how nice they are to us up front. I hate living life with the attitude that "you do what you have to do to not get screwed."
I guess the good subs wont mind waiting to get paid and then when they are completely done we can "reward" them at that time for their great work.
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Christi's Response:
55539.38 in reply to 55539.37
Oh, Kacy!
I'm sorry that you're in this spot, but I have to say I'm glad that you got good advice from George.
In our business, most of the problems we have are related to this very thing: us advising one thing and the client choosing to not take our advice.
Still, I'd heat Pete up to get him on the sub.
Thanks,
Christi
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My Response:
55539.39 in reply to 55539.38
Hey Christi,
I really don't want you to think that we are not happy with Pete and George's services. We are very happy with all they've done so far and we have no worries about it down the road either. This is an unfortunate situation that we are in but we really only have ourselves to blame for being too trusting despite George's warnings.
I just wanted to let you know that Pete and George were both aware of the situation we are in. We have been in contact with them the whole time and they have been doing everything they can to help us get this figured out. I hold them in no way responsible for our framer's poor professionalism. There's no way UBuildit could have known that this type of thing would happen.
This framer had a good reputation. I just think something's going on within their company that needs to get worked out, i.e. legal issues, workers getting let go. It doesn't seem like this is something they do a lot. I just think we got unlucky in our timing with them.
And really, it's not like the framer's already fled the country or anything. In fact the framer has contacted us and said they are coming out tomorrow to start working again. So really, all we're looking at, at the moment, is an unfortunate 2 week delay of our construction and a lack of communication between ourselves and the framer. It just got a little frustrating and I needed to vent.
I realize now that I really should keep these types of frustrations to myself, because I see how my venting can reflect negatively on UBuildit and I really did not intend to do that and do not ever want to do that. My husband and I have been extremely pleased with the level of service we have received so far from them.
Thanks for checking up on us though, but Pete and George have been awesome so far and we truly have absolutely no complaints about them. I see now how my comments about the framer maybe led some people to think I was blaming UBuildit. The only one to blame here is the framer and ourselves who went against George's advice. UBuildit has done everything they can to help us work through this situation and I know that nothing will stop up from getting our house done.
And from what I've heard from other owner-builders who have done it on their own, this type of situation is not all that unusual. No home construction is without it's glitches at one time or another. But at least we have UBuildit on our side for additional support in getting this straightened out with the sub.
Thanks again and don't worry about us! We're in good hands!
-Kacy
________________________________________________
Christi's Response:
You know what, Kacy....don't stop posting. I'm confident in UBuildIt and confident in Pete and George. If we mess up, we should have dues to pay. It it happens in public like this, then so be it.<!----><!---->
These guys all know the dangers of the construction business. Some may not understand or like assisted owner/building, but that's okay. <!---->
It is very important that you follow George's advice though. When things go South, it's usually because an client ignores our advice and that's dangerous: it can put you off schedule, affect the quality of your home or put you over budget.<!---->
You paid us, so let UBuildIt really advise you.<!---->
There's a famous story around UBuildIt about a client that got to thinking he knew everything he needed to know. You know the old adage – “you can't know what you don't know?†So, this guy decided to convert the garage into a cathedral ceiling without talking to the consultant....he just gave orders to the subs. Well, of course, neither the plans nor the budget included that, so all hell broke loose. So, these cathedral trusses show up on the site, and there’s no steel windframe or structural stuff to support turning a garage into a 2 story wall with a garage door in it. The garage door guy nearly keels over because how can he hang the door? The framer freaks because now there’s no stability in the structure or the walls and they are flopping around like a trout out of water. The client freaks because he’s over budget with all the shoring up that has to be done.<!---->
And the moral of the story is, it’s big trouble for squirrel and moose if you get off track of the system. If you go over budget because of unexpected and poorly thought-out change orders…where would the money come from if you blow through your contingency? You would find yourself in the unfortunate position of owing money to subs/vendors and not having any draw left. The bank, if they got wind of it, would put your loan in stasis (risk management) and you could end up with a lien on the house.<!---->
Now, I hate to cry wolf and scare you to death, but that’s worse case scenario.<!---->
It can be small stuff, too…..maybe your consultant has structural fill planned for the porch that wraps around the front and the concrete guy says “hell, I’d just use dirt!â€. Well gosh, that is one way to do it, but is it the best way? Do you want the cement to crack because the dirt shifted or do you want some stability? Do you realize that dirt sitting over there is allocated for elsewhere and you gotta buy more dirt?<!---->
That is all stuff you need to know, so that you can make informed decisions. That’s what UBuildIt is all about – informed decisions.<!---->
So, once again, use George…..and call me if you have any trouble. Your house is going to be beautiful and you'll be proud of it!
Thanks,
Christi
_______________________
Edited 3/17/2005 6:16 pm ET by kcmarie122
WELL?! Did they show up? Or are they giving you the, "we'll be there Monday.." line?
jt8
Opportunity doesn't knock. You knock, opportunity answers. -- American Proverb
I'm dying to hear, too.
This whole thing is a bummer with the framers.
It's a shame, because Kacy brought the framers with her, so Pete/George don't have a prior relationship or much leverage with them. Sounds like they aren't going to develop one for the future, either. :-o
I'm just hopin' it all works out, pdq.
-christi
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
Edited 3/18/2005 1:51 pm ET by UBuildIt
We don't know yet. I tried calling but couldn't get in touch with them. My husband and I are going to stop by the house on our way home from work so I guess we'll find out then.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed but not holding my breath, if you know what I mean.
-Kacy
this living vicariously is high drama......
stay tuned...
( sorry, we've all been there... waiting for some dolt to show up ... he*l.. i may have enve been the dolt on more that one occasion)Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Nope, they didn't show. Glad I didn't hold my breath! :)
We tried calling but of course we didn't reach anyone. I guess we wait until Monday and do this all over again. Should be fun...
I'm sure even the good contractors have days they don't show when they say they will. It just usually isn't preceded by two weeks of not showing up and barely any communication on top of it.
We can be patient...I guess... It's not like we have a choice, right?
Oh for the days when I looked forward to coming home to see what had been accomplished! Now I am pulling out my hair with stress while waiting to come home to see if they even showed up. :)
-Kacy
One of the rules is that as long as the money is in your pocket, the stress is in someone elses.You say you have to wait? How long? Three weeks?
Three months?
Six months? You'd better decide right now what your limit is. If somebody had my monery two weeks and no contacts, I'd consider that a breach of contract or fraud and be talking to an attorney by four weeks time. Let thenm know by certified mail if you happen to feel the same.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I agree with Piffin... how long are you willing to wait? Determine that number and stick to it. Inform the sub of this via certified mail... or better yet... by certified mail from your attorney (some people are influenced by the fancy title of "esquire").
I would say that a well placed phone call to your AGs office would help... but I spent 4 hours on the phone with the AGs office in Michigan on an issue... and STILL can't get it resolved! FWIW... if you do make that call... don't even bother with the "departments"... go directly to the Executive assistants in the executive office of the AG. That was the ONLY place I found anyone with enough gumption to actually do any work to resolve the situation. Still not resolved... but I would have saved about 3.5 hrs if I would have started there... as they were able to rattle off what I needed to do in 3 minutes.
This long with no contact is totally unacceptable and you DO have options. The question is... do you want to exercise them? You can have a new sub come in to finish the job... you can hunt down your current sub and have a heart to heart (preferably with a big dog at your side... for effect only, of course).... you can file suit... you can send a demand letter (preferably from your attorney)... you can create a voodoo doll of the guy and stick needles in it... LOTS of options.And a BTW... I know of one framer in our area who's grandma has passed away at least 6 times I am aware of. I really hate to be cynical... but that excuse is so old, that even if I had a relative pass away.. I'd never admit to it.
Edited 3/18/2005 11:29 pm ET by Rich from Columbus
I'd like to say I'm smart enough not to get into that situation... but I'm not. Typically I get mader and mader until I say enough is enough and take whatever measures are necessary. I think Piffin is on the right track. If they haven't come back within 4 weeks (maybe less), I'd get a lawyer on the case (dang blood sucking lawyers). Which then pisses me off EVEN MORE cuz the people are screwing me over so bad that now I'm gonna have to pay for a parasite lawyer. Grrrrrrr! Just wrote a $2k check to a lawyer this week. As you can tell I have a real high opinion of lawyers. :)
jt8
Opportunity doesn't knock. You knock, opportunity answers. -- American Proverb
Response to Kacy from the other thread below. We got off topic in another thread and moved it all over here. There's good stuff in http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=53790.68
You know what, Kacy....don't stop posting. I'm confident in UBuildIt and confident in Pete and George. If we mess up, we should have dues to pay. It it happens in public like this, then so be it.<!----><!---->
These guys all know the dangers of the construction business. Some may not understand or like assisted owner/building, but that's okay. <!---->
It is very important that you follow George's advice though. When things go South, it's usually because an client ignores our advice and that's dangerous: it can put you off schedule, affect the quality of your home or put you over budget.<!---->
You paid us, so let UBuildIt really advise you.<!---->
There's a famous story around UBuildIt about a client that got to thinking he knew everything he needed to know. You know the old adage – “you can't know what you don't know?†So, this guy decided to convert the garage into a cathedral ceiling without talking to the consultant....he just gave orders to the subs. Well, of course, neither the plans nor the budget included that, so all hell broke loose. So, these cathedral trusses show up on the site, and there’s no steel windframe or structural stuff to support turning a garage into a 2 story wall with a garage door in it. The garage door guy nearly keels over because how can he hang the door? The framer freaks because now there’s no stability in the structure or the walls and they are flopping around like a trout out of water. The client freaks because he’s over budget with all the shoring up that has to be done.<!---->
And the moral of the story is, it’s big trouble for squirrel and moose if you get off track of the system. If you go over budget because of unexpected and poorly thought-out change orders…where would the money come from if you blow through your contingency? You would find yourself in the unfortunate position of owing money to subs/vendors and not having any draw left. The bank, if they got wind of it, would put your loan in stasis (risk management) and you could end up with a lien on the house.<!---->
Now, I hate to cry wolf and scare you to death, but that’s worse case scenario.<!---->
It can be small stuff, too…..maybe your consultant has structural fill planned for the porch that wraps around the front and the concrete guy says “hell, I’d just use dirt!â€. Well gosh, that is one way to do it, but is it the best way? Do you want the cement to crack because the dirt shifted or do you want some stability? Do you realize that dirt sitting over there is allocated for elsewhere and you gotta buy more dirt?<!---->
That is all stuff you need to know, so that you can make informed decisions. That’s what UBuildIt is all about – informed decisions.<!---->
So, once again, use George…..and call me if you have any trouble. Your house is going to be beautiful and you'll be proud of it!
Thanks,
Christi
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
Not to alarm you, but I just went through this with an grading contractor. Didn't so much pay ahead of a contractor as front money for materials. Stopped showing up. Ducked my calls. Finally got him through his ex-wife. Admitted he used money for something else. Swore he'd repay if I gave him a few weeks to get on his feet. OK. Agreed to meet on a Fri. Oops, he was busy then, how about the next day. Then ducked calls....again. Now the lawyer has it. Starts making you suspicious of everyone...sometimes hard to find the balance between being a nice guy/gurl and being too nice for your own good. Don't just wait...gives them a head start on the getaway.
Thanks for the advice everyone. I think we'll wait to see if we hear from them on Monday. Because it's not like we have had no contact with them for two weeks.
We did get ahold of the lead carpenter twice who gave us the "we'll be there Wednesday or Thursday or Friday..." story. And we did get 1 message back from the owner also saying they would start again Friday.
Well, now that they didn't come (again) we left them new messages to call us. If we don't at least hear from them early next week or they don't show up at all next week, then we'll start looking for someone else to finish the job and pursuing legal action towards the framer, ugh.
We figured it was worth another week of waiting. But it's a good idea to send them a letter certified mail giving them an ultimatum. It's another sign to show you're serious and that you consider them on the brink of breach of contract. Then if they still don't show they can't say "we'll we were going to come back, you just didn't give us enough time!"
But yes, we definitely have decided that we will give them 1 more week. But any more than that is just ridiculous. I guess we'll decide what to do at that time.
Thanks for the support though. I have no doubt we'll get our money back if it comes to that. It will just take some time and will be a hassle so we'd like to avoid that situation if at all possible.
Thanks again!
-Kacy
Kacy,
Something is seriously wrong with this. You mentioned in the other thread that you gave the framer this extra money so you could get a 'better deal' on change orders. UBuildIt's change orders are at cost to the client - there should be no upcharge for change orders. Hence, no available discount.
Using Pete/George's subs for any future business you do on the home would be a good idea. They have control of the subs and the their subs do business the right way. There's leverage.
And, I know this is a horrible way to learn the lesson, but dang, girl.....no more paying anybody in advance, 'kay? I know George (your consultant) said not to - that's from experience, not just UBuildIt experience.
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
Hey Christi,
Just to let you know, the sub might have been brought with us to our current UBuildit office, but the sub was recommended to us by the original UBuildit office we started the process with.
The sub was an approved UBuildit vendor from that office (John), and they became approved through our current UBuildit office too (George and Pete.
We thought the sub would be trustworthy. It's still our fault we paid them more than they were due, but the sub was an approved vendor (not that they will be any more, more than likely).
I don't fault George or Pete at all because John passed along this sub to them. But you would still think that a sub that a UBuildit consultant (John) recommended would be a good one.
Kacy
Edited 3/19/2005 3:17 pm ET by kcmarie122
The catch is the office you are working with has no leverage. This guy knows he's never getting any more business. His allegiance/relationship/background is with the other office. And that guy's wife has M.S., so he closed up shop.
Pete may be able to help you fix this - may not. In any case, if you aren't able to get this guy to show up, Pete has a regular stable of subs.
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
Edited 3/19/2005 3:33 pm ET by UBuildIt
Well we talked to the framer this morning and he said they were already on site and back on our job.
Since we haven't been there, we can't verify that for sure but we're giving them the benefit of the doubt. Apparently they've got 7 guys that will be working on our job all week.
I guess we'll see how it goes from here on out. Let's just say that I will breathe a huge sigh of relief when they are done and gone.
Thanks for all your concern and support!
-Kacy
Seems to me that in addition to recommending that you not pay the full amount your framer wanted your advisor should have called the guy himself and worked it out beforehand. I just caught the tale end of this from the homeshow thread, but does Ubuildit not have any authority over the subs they supply?
I realize in some cases noone would have any leverage once the guys been paid, just seems like it would have been simple for someone who knew better to have cut this short before it happened.
Hi, Scott,
Welcome to Breaktime. It's always nice to have new members.
They have been all over this guy, as well. Unfortunately, this crew wasn't recommened by the UBuildIt office that Kacy is working with. They have never worked with them before.
Under normal circumstances, we would be dealing with subs that we regularly work with, that are reliable and reasonably priced, that do high-quality work and that want to continue to do work with us.
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
Edited 3/21/2005 11:04 am ET by UBuildIt
WELL? Now you've got me hooked on the drama! did your framers show up like they said they were? Are there seven guys getting your house back on track after the long absence?
Inquiring minds want to know!That's a tough life lesson. From the other end(contractor), I couldn't imagine asking for money as a favor if I hadn't completed the work. My contracts have the payment schedule in them (partial payment after each phase of the job is COMPLETE). There's no question as to when I get the money. When I complete the particular phase of the project, I present the HO with an invoice for the amount specified in the signed contract.I am sorry that you got burned by one of the 80 percenters.Hopefully this message finds you with framers onsite, sober and working hard to complete your house.Mac
Hey Everyone,
Well, we're started back up again. Of course things aren't moving quite as quickly as we'd hoped but at this point we're not complaining! Apparently 7 guys really only means 3 guys but whose counting! :)
The good news is that our roofers got started yesterday and should be done by early next week so we will be 90% closed up. The carpenters still have 2 more windows to put in and all our exterior doors and then we'll be 100% closed up. Just in time for spring...What timing!
Here's some of the pictures we took on site yesterday!
One of the pictures shows how our carpenters had to build out 1 section of wall of our house. The back part of the existing house was an addition that was put on in the early 80's. Well, they apparently didn't want to pull off all the old siding so they built the addition wall so that it would be flush with the existing house, siding and all. Well, we wanted to pull off all the old siding so now the main part of the existing house is sub-flush (is that a word?) to the back part by a little more than 1 1/2". They are using 2 x 4's to build out the wall so the outside edge will line up with correctly with the back wall.
Oh the joys of remodeling! It's amazing what you uncover when you start ripping stuff apart.
We're doing our best to get it all fixed though!
-Kacy
>Well, we're started back up againGood news. Hope it's smooth sailing from here.
kc
good luck. looks like you dodged a bullet. life lessons in construction. now you've got a story to tell
Right on, Kacy, I'm glad to hear you've got forward motion again! Have a great Easter and good luck with the rest of the project!Mac<!---->View Image<!---->
Your setting there - back from the raod and with those trees - will let that house end up looking like it has always been there as tho the greek was built when the trees were planted and the original hosue is the addition. Good going there.re the frameers. I would have a hard time tyrusting anyone who asked for an advance with promises attached the day before they disappearred. That was clearly premeditated fraudulent behaviour. U-buildit should be noting that in their file for future history
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
kcmarie, email me here. You are in close proximity to this years Fest. Why don't you plan on coming down and meet some of these yahoos? Or, we take a sojourn trip up your way, sat. morning. What do you say?Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Piffin,
It's not part of our program and as in this case, we would again recommend against prepayment for any reason.
This case is unusual because the framer in question does not work with the UBuildIt office in question, they came with the client. And, it seems, will never get work with us again.
I'm just glad that all is back on track.
-c
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
Edited 3/27/2005 2:46 pm ET by UBuildIt
Hey Everyone!
Thanks for your comments! We really hoped to build a house that had an "original" feel to it. We hope it still looks that way when we finish it! Luckily for us we have a few towns in our area with several original Greek Revival homes in them for inspiration!
We're glad we're back on track too so we will keep posting updates as we get them! Unfortunately not too much will change on the outside for awhile. The next few big things to be done all happen on the inside.
Also, we're planning on running our own electrical circuits in the house. So that will slow us down quite a bit but we think it will be worth it.
Thanks again guys! We'll also look into attending the Breaktime Fest. We'll have to check on the dates! But what do you guys typically do there?
-Kacy
kacy.. not much...
here have a peek..
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=46373.1Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Your camera works on the inside doesn't it?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, I guess it does! :)
But it does seem like it would be a lot less exciting until you get to the final finishing stages! Rough heating, plumbing, and electrical progress probably wont be all that fun for you guys to look at, right! But if you insist! :)
Maybe I'll be able to show you all the dumb stuff my husband and I end up doing while working on our electrical wiring! It's inevitable!
Hope you had a great Easter!
-Kacy
Seriously, that is where qwe can catch any mistakes or errors and omissions for you BEFORE they get covered up. You did want help with this, right?Besides, here is another tip - I ALWAYS shoot photos of all walls with plumbing and wiring in place before insulation and sheetrock happens. That helps later when you need to know where a stud is or where not to drill through. Mkae it part of your archives.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, that's a really good idea. We've had a few other people tell us that too and we definitely plan on doing that when we finish up our rough mechanicals.
I will also still keep posting pictures of our progress too because you're right, we can use all the help we can get and you guys have been pretty awesome so far!
-Kacy
To paraphrase Forest Gump's mother, "awesomne is as awesome does"You be awesome too
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
To paraphrase Forest Gump's mother, "awesomne is as awesome does"
You be awesome too
Well this little love fest is about to make me ill. I'm still waiting to see someone throw a chair!
jt8
Opportunity doesn't knock. You knock, opportunity answers. -- American Proverb
Well, we saw a lot more get done today! They started installing the LVL's in the existing house. We're really opening up the original floor plan and needed to take out a couple load bearing walls.
Here's a few photos of the first (and biggest) beam going up. It's 4 - 18" LVL's that span 25'. Let's just say those carpenters got a workout today. It runs parallel to the ridge and will hold up the ends of the rafters on one side of our roof.
Also, we wanted the new LVL to be flush with the ceiling so the architect "placed" the beam closer in towards the ridge so it could be set up in the ceiling. You can see how they cut the rafters to put the beam up there. They will then hanger the rafters to the beam and support the roof rafters on the top side of the LVL.
It was pretty cool to watch!
Ouch! My aching back. Good update. Thanks.
Uh - those are joists they cut.cieling joists.if they fulfill a structural function, such as acting as rafter ties, they got cut an inch too short to make a joint with the beam. Hangers will not fill that void adequately. They will probably need to add another board whatever size it takes to tighten up that void.I have done this job too.. It is not easy. We cut our slot a quarter inch over instead of their inch or two over. Then we placed the beam one slice at a time and assembled in place to assure a snug fit. We have also set a steel beam in such a slot. Used jacks to lift and set. On another one, we had working space in the attic and we cut a hole in the gable end wall large enough to deliver the beam. ( three stories up, so it was on a boom truck) We slid it in, seated the ends on their blocks and then used hanger ties to hold the joists from above without needing to slice them.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I walked around the outside of our house the other day (now that we finally got some nicer weather/less mud!) and took some pictures as I went. Here they are. I finally got to see how the other elevations were looking. I'm pretty happy with how they turned out!
Sorry for so many pics but I got some from all the way around.
Edit: Opps sorry Piffin, I meant to specify ALL but just got you instead! Thanks for your comments though. They still haven't attached the beam fully to the rafters and ceiling joists yet. It should be interesting to see how they do it. But I will keep a close eye on it. Too bad they only worked (not even) a half day yesterday and didn't show up at all today (so far).
-Kacy
Edited 4/1/2005 11:33 am ET by kcmarie122
those photo files are small enough that I have no problem openning all of them.There is a detail I would like to see in close up if you care to try another photo or two. in #1 where a corner trim comes down to meet the porch roof, and again in a latter shot where the same kind of corner trim comes down to meet the garage roof. My memory is that the framers had that corner mold on the house before the roofers started shingling, giving rise to the question, how - and how well did they flash there?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hmm, Good question Piffin! I will check that out and get a close-up to see how it was done!
Well, they attached the hangers for that beam last week. They did not fill the void like you mentioned. There is a space between the ceiling joist and the beam itself. Only the hanger is attaching them to each other so basically they are not touching each other at all. This is how they did it on both sides as well as on another LVL they put up in a different spot.
Is this something we need to ask them to fix? How would they go about doing that?
We are still having some major nightmares with the framer right now and they are royally screwing things up left and right so we need to pick our battles at this point. Is this something that really needs to be done? If we end up firing these guys before they fix this is another framer going to charge us a lot to fix it instead?
Basically could you give me some solid reasons that I can relay to the framer as to why they need to fix it. Don't get me wrong, I totally believe you, I just need good ammo to fire at the framers!
Thanks Piffin!
-Kacy (AKA: Extremely Pissed Off at our Framers)
How big of gaps are we talking? The bigger the gap, the lower the load bearing capacity.From Simpson: "Joist shall bear completely on the connector seat, and the gap between the joist end and the header shall not exceed 1/8†per ASTM test standards."
Barry E-Remodeler
Edited 4/11/2005 11:35 am ET by Barry E
I would say there is about an inch gap between the joist and the beam. And if not quite an inch then definitely more than 1/8". That is some very good ammo and right from Simpson too! Cool!
Thanks Barry!
-oops, I forgot to ask. So how would they go about fixing that?
Edited 4/11/2005 11:43 am ET by kcmarie122
Got a photo you can post?
I'll take one tonight and try and post it tomorrow...
-Kacy
Here's a picture of the beam and joists before the hangers were put in...
I'll try and measure how much space is between the joists and the beam tonight too. Pictures might not show it since it is kind of hidden by the hanger itself.
View ImageSYSOP[email protected]Have you updated your forum profile lately? Please Do!
that's a pic you've already posted, right?
when I first saw it .. I was wondering why such the big gap.
thought maybe there were gonna shift it to one side and add another "lamination" to the beam. It's way too big a gap. Joist hangers should be the "back up" ... not the primary structural element. Build tight enough not to need them ... then use them.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
kc... barry's method would work..
but i'd try something else first
View Image
it looks like you can get either 1/2" or 3/8" ply in on each side
i'd use underlayment ply , because it has no voids.. i'd use a nailing pattern that would make the ply secure and exceeding the shear load of the joists.. then i'd attach my joist hangers to the ply..
i'd also pass this by a PE..and keep his reply in my safe deposit box..
the problem is the joist hangers are designed to support the joists in a saddle configuration... by having them cut so short.. the joist only bears on the tip of the hanger... so this changes the moment-arm... the top of the hanger is unrestrained and can pull out and tip towards the joist..
since you are an engineer...you should be able to diagram these forcesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike it looks like a gap on both sides. Would it be too much work to just shift one side over and slip another 2x in?
jt8
Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself. -- Leo Tolstoy
It is probably already hooked up at both ends
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It is probably already hooked up at both ends
Sawzall couldn't correct that? (I'm asking, not being sarcastic)jt8
Things turn out best for the people who make the best of the way things turn out. -- John R. Wooden
Is this just attic space above? or living space?Depending..I would push the existing beam tight to one side of the joists and if the gap is 1" or greater slide a 2X between the beam and other set of joists, trimming off the joists as needed. make sure the new material also goes into the beam pocket.If it's living space, I might use another glulam or whatever to match existing.Course, I would never cut the pocket that wide to begin with. <g>
Barry E-Remodeler
Well, it's attic space, but it's a finished attic, meaning we store a lot of crap up there but we don't actually live up there. It's a bungalow so the attic is almost liveable.
So I'm guessing we'd want to fix it. So if you put a 2x next to the beam to fill the void, do the hangers attach directly to the 2x instead of the beam itself? What's holding the 2x to the beam? Is it just nailed in? You'll have to bear with me. I'm no carpenter. I guess I'm just trying to visualize how that would work.
Thanks for your input so far though!
-Kacy
Yes the joist hangers would attach to the new surface. The new 2X or LVL would be nailed just like the existing LVL's were nailed together. Assuming that they were. <g> I have had to bolt them together on some jobs.You definitely want to fix it. Hopefully it won't be a battle you have to pick.
Barry E-Remodeler
Yeah, let's hope they did actually nail them together!
Not to bore you with more questions...but...Does this new 2x or LVL need to be long enough to span the entire distance of the beam? I guess I just don't see how nailing a 2x to a beam would offer more structural stability to the joists hanging from it.
It seems that the idea is to attach the joists to something that is not going to sag or collapse. What keeps the 2x from "sagging" or detaching (pulling away) from the beam. (The beam itself isn't going anywhere, it spans the whole distance) Do the nails that attach the 2x to the beam really offer that much support? Basically instead of the beam supporting the hanger/joists, the nails in a 2x are supporting all the load of the joists? Am I thinking of this correctly?
Sorry, I'm an engineer and I like to understand things. I'm not doubting what you're saying at all, I'm just trying to grasp it in my mind! It just seems like if you're attaching the joists to something, you'd want it to be something very stable (like the beam) but by attaching it to some weaker member instead (a 2x nailed to a beam) it would weaken it?
Ugh, I don't get it! :) Sorry I'm such a moron! You can just ignore me now!
-Kacy
Many times a built up beam, especially standard lumber, will span a distance that is greater than the individual pieces of the beam will span. For instance you have a 24' span and the longest 2X12 you can find is 16' long. You can use 2 pieces as long as the splices don't line up in each adjoining layer and it's nailed correctly..oh and it has been engineered correctly <g> it will carry the load. Clear as mud?As I said the new piece has to set in the beam pockets on either end, same as the existing LVL's. First choice would be another LVL that spans the distance, next a 2X that spans the entire distance. If I could no longer put a single length up I would put it up with 2 lengths and make sure it was nailed to code. If I was still worried I would through bolt the new piece to the existing beam with carriage bolts. keep in mind that this is all without being there and having a feel for the situation firsthand, if I were still unsure I would call in the engineer.hope this makes sense
Barry E-Remodeler
Yes, that does make sense! Thanks so much for the clarification. We're going to talk to our UBuildit guy and our Architect about what the best thing to do would be.
You're right in that we need to get it ok-ed by the right people but your explanation was very helpful in getting me on the right track to understanding the problem and the potential fix. Now at least I can maybe talk intelligently about it to them!
Thanks so much! We'll see how it works out!
KCmarie
Doesn't the building inspector have to inspect before you 'rock it?? He is going to want a repair that either the LVL manufacturer's engineer has approved or some other P.E. has. And likely the paperwork to back it up. Around here an architect stamp wouldn't cut it. I used to work on retainer for Louisiana Pacific Engineered Wood products supplier. There are lots of standard repairs drawn up, you might want to get their advice too. I would accept Barry's repair, if the 2 x became a full ply with the LVL beam, and went all the way into the beam supports (like Mike suggests) and is well nailed with a few (not many, maybe only 2 or 3) bolts for extra measure. The other thing I like about Mike's suggestion is that by using thinner material (osb for example) you can make it tight on both sides and match the depth of the beam full length. Remember 1/4 inch gap max (why in the world would they cut out so much)
The less favourable way to fix this is to add blocks at the ends of the joists just to make everything tight. don't fall for this easy way out. you can't streatch lumber.. Barry and Mike could be on a job of mine any day.
Edited 4/11/2005 9:05 pm ET by JoanM
We are still having some major nightmares with the framer right now and they are royally screwing things up left and right so we need to pick our battles at this point
Kacy, would you mind sharing the nightmares. I want to use your story as a sales story!
I'm not sure why you are settling. Demand that EVERYTHING be fixed and get a third party inspection to document your case. Get Ubuild it over there to create a written third party documentation. Make a list of written notes and ask the building inspectors to comment, inspect it.
My memory of Troy is that they have a tough inspection department. It could have changed since I've last worked there but I kind of doubt it.
Don't settle.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
The UBuildIt office (Pete and George) has recommended that Kacy get another framer. It's my understanding that one of their primary framers is onsite as we speak to do an assessment. At the point a bid will be proffered to kacy and she can decided what to do. Because the original framers were paid out too far, there may be some money issues, but I'm sure they will figure all that out.
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
kc,
remember the anguish you had when you had fronted money to these guys and they disappeared? remember that the lesson you learned there waws to keep the mopney in your pocket until things were done and done right?Because when the money is in YOUR poscket, YOU have the leverage?DON"T YOU DARE WRITE THEM ANOTHER CHECK UNTIL EVERYTHING IS RIGHT!now then, I am going to sketch up a little diagrahm showing why you need these hangers done right. Be back soon
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Here you go.
as you study this, you will see three joists attached to a center beam. (This is with LUS hangers, except in the second drawing where I added how a regular with nail would lack any connection on the far left)See how the fasteners in the properly attached one below are driven through the joist and into the beam?
And how the fasteners entirely miss making any connection in the joist with the gapped one such as you have?Now look to the right side where i added a shim. That shim, when glued and nailed becomes part of the beam, so the whole connection has integrity. Leaving the gap allows the joists to pull further away from the beam, or the beam to potentially roll. This can lead to a number of things, the least being continual cracking of the sheet rock joints, and the worst being a downfall. Only an engineer or an architect on site with familiarity with these metal fasteners and the load p[aths of the whole structure can determine how bad this situation is or what exactly should be done now to correct it, but it is absolutely unacceptabble at this point in time. As far as I am concerned, they might just as well have not even put anything there at all.
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Don't worry Piffin! There is no way is H - E - L - L they are getting another dime of our money!
We've actually already decided to go the way of Donald Trump and say...
"You're Fired!"
He He, this is going to be so fun! I think I'm just giddy because all the stress of this situation is finally almost over!
Yup, George and Pete already had their framer out to our place today to give us their quote to finish the job. I'm so relieved. And actually I don't think we'll be all that bad off money-wise. Maybe only a couple grand (which is still more than we'd like but could've been worse) but we will more than likely go after them for it legally if we can. George is helping us out with the whole situation so we feel like we got a good handle on things now. I will definitely post more of the details later when I have more time because parts of it are actually quite humorous (now that it's almost over). I feel about a thousand pounds lighter today now that we've finally made the decision to move on!
It still amazes me how little class and integrity the owner of the framing company has had through this whole situation though. Every day that has gone by this past week I think, "I couldn't possibly think any less of this guy, but then he keeps surprising me and keeps going one step lower." It's amazing, I didn't think it was even possible!
But even though we have every right treat this guy like the total a--hole that he is, we're going to try and close out the situation with only the highest levels of class and professionalism on our end. We don't want to give him the satisfaction of bring us down to his level of immaturity. Maybe I'll post our "You're Fired" letter here when I get it all finished. (We haven't sent it to them yet, we're getting it ok-ed by George and Pete first). I want it to be perfect. It's like my final little masterpiece!
I'll keep you posted on the joist/hanger thing too and hopefully get some pictures. My battery is dead on my camera so I got to get it charged up again. But George was looking at the hangers and has an opinion that I will share later!
But once again thanks all for your help!
-Kacy
(just fixed my spelling/grammer errors. I was trying to type fast!)
Edited 4/12/2005 9:57 pm ET by kcmarie122
You are coming through absolutely giddy gurl.When you get that camera charged up, remember that flashing at the cormer trim above garage attachment - or have george look at that too.
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Well, I don't have a lot of time but I figured I'd post a few of the pics I took yesterday.
First off, I attached a few pictures of the ceiling joist hangers. I took pictures of the worst of them. More of them are better than these but I figured you'd want to see the worst ones.
Another think I notice when looking straight up from underneath the hangers is that some of the nails (the ones that cross each other) don't go into the beam at all. In Piffin's pictures it shows the nails continuing into the beam but I don't think the framer's used long enough nails considering how much of a gap is between the joist and the beam.
The only thing we're thinking is that because of the whole set-up of how that beam is, there wont be much of a lateral pull on the joists. The beam is not right where the old bearing wall used to be, it is inset towards the gable about 3 or 4 feet. I drew a rough picture ("beamlocation") and attached it to show what I mean.
So basically, the only way for the roof/joists to pull apart (laterally) is for the beam to move also, and there's no way that beam is going anywhere. Really the majority of the forces seen by the joists will be a downward force.
Those are our thoughts. What do you guys think? Obviously I'm thinking at this point though that the only way to get the absolute correct answer is to have the architect come out to the house personally and check out what they did. He's the only one who can really determine for sure what direction loads those joists will see.
But I figured you guys would still be interested to see the pics.
I have a few other pictures for the next post.
-Kacy
(I wanted to add one more picture to show their definition making the bottom of the hanger flush with the bottom of the beam. I can't add it to this one but I'll add it to my third post today)
Edited 4/14/2005 12:49 pm ET by kcmarie122
Ok so here's a few more pictures:
Flashing pics: Showing the flashing that was done around the trim boards. You can kind of tell on the front porch trim that it was pulled away somewhat to get flashing in there. Since the front trim board buts right up to the side trim board I can't tell if they flashing goes the whole way.
In the second picture though, it shows another spot where it's obvious they put flashing behind both trim boards. This section is over the garage.
I think the roofers did a pretty good job. They were a reputable company and they still haven't quite finished (they have been waiting on our ex-framers to finish up the chimney chase)
Now I'll post a few pictures of a few other things our framers did. See what you think!
Attached are two pictures of two windows that are both in our dining area that are supposed to be level with each other. Well, they are not. They are off by an inch. In the outside picture, you can see they even cut the top trim piece of one of the windows an inch narrower so that it would fit below the frieze. Hmm, you think they didn't notice that! On the inside you can see on the left window that there is a gap between the top of the window and the R.O. But even if they had mounted that window flush with the top of the R.O. it still would have been low by 1/2".
The next two pictures show how they put the window trim on the side of the house that had been built out. They built out the wall originally to level it with the back addition. But when they put the trim on, they didn't completely build it out also around the trim. Hence, where will our siding guy attach his J-Mouldings and siding?
The biggest issue we had was with their method of leveling our floors. They told us that they would fur up the floor so that it would be level with our other floors. We agree that this was a difficult task because the center part of the house (the oldest part) was not level with the back of the house to begin with. They decided to build the new addition to the same level as the back of the house and then build the floors of the oldest part of the house so that they matched up with both. Does that make sense?
Well, they decided to put 2 x 4's down on their sides on the whole floor, then shim under the 2 x 4's in spots where the old floor was sagging. Then nail and glue plywood down on top of that. By doing this they decided to leave us a 2 1/2" step from our living room to the hallway to our master bedroom. This was all supposed to be one level floor which we were going to put hardwood on. well with a 2 1/2" step that wasn't going to happen. They never even called us to tell us that they realized that their method to level the floors wasn't going to work. They switched methods mid-project because they assumed we wouldn't mind having that step. Well, we did mind. And the stupid thing is that if they just would've called us, there is a much simpler solution to leveling the floors than they had originally suggested.
Basically, our plan is this: First we have to rip out the whole subfloor. We will then sister all the joists (only 2 x 6's) (which we already planning on doing from the beginning anyway to strengthen the floor). When we go to sister the joists, we will position them in such a way so that the new subfloor will be level with the old floors. We will then put the plywood on top of the sistered joists.
Does that sound like it will work? We are having our architect look at that too and get the city's opinion (anonymously) before we go ahead with it.
-Kacy
Here's the picture of how the hanger is (not) flush with the beam...
Ok, last one for now...
Here's just a few final pictures of all the straw we lugged out of the basement last weekend. What a nasty job! I didn't get a picture of myself but here's one of my husband and my parents. I was just about as dirty as they were!
I'm sooooo glad that is over. I never want to have to do that again! Have you ever smelled straw that has been sitting in water for 2-3 months. It does not smell nice at all!
We carried it out in bucket by 5 gallon bucket...wet, soggy, mucky and stinky. At least it's behind us now!
Hope you all are having a great day!
-Kacy
sobriety is the root cause of dementia.
Wheres the pitchfork?
These city slickers shouldn't be messing with no straw!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I didn't recall reading about the straw caper in the earlier posts but I can kind of guess what happened.
Seeing the pics she just posted I feel sorry for her. Something about the pic with those 3 nails in that simpson bout makes me cry.
be saddened
sobriety is the root cause of dementia.
I don't want to have to go all the way back through to find the answer. Why was the straw in the basement?
"A problem cannot be solved by the same thinking that created it." Albert Einstein
heck.. any yankee knows that one..
to keep the frost out of the footings and cellar hole
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Oh. Good idea.
"A problem cannot be solved by the same thinking that created it." Albert Einstein
Marie,
I seee someting that concerns me more than the low hanger in that.See the Anderson twin door in the background? They did not use a level when they installed it. The door on right is hanging on the threshold isn't it? I see a gap at the top between it and the jamb. But since it looks like the right jamb is already tight to the framing, the correction will not be easy to get that door level and working properly. Can't say too much more from what little i see, but here is another hint -
Those Andersens need to have their jamb frmes assembled properly on site to avoid leaking and rot at the sill frame. There isa small tube of caulk provided that MUST be inserted in the frame joint there between thresh and leg jamb pieces. Fail to do that and you are facing a gauranteed leak onto or under your hardwood floor. See if there is any sign that they caulked it in - some ooze out or something. or see if the full tube is sitting around still, unused. The way these clowns hacked up everything else, I'll bet my breakfast they didn't bother themselves with assembling that frame properly. The hard part of taking the door out though to do it right, is that there should be a bead of caulk under the threshold to the sill or subfloor it sets on. Let's hope they neglected that too, so I it is easier to remove and reinstall.
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Those look like 8d nails in the hangers. Read the hanger itself and the Simpson literature for specifics on the type of nails they require to make the hanger effective
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Kacy,I read through the rest of the thread and can't find any more mention of a fix. Can't just let it go though...Those joists and hangers simply are not "good enough".Have a look at Piffin's drawing again, showing the shim.The joists look to be an average of about 3/4" short of the beam.Build the temp support wall under the joists again. Remove the hangers.Cut all the joists to a uniform 3/4" from the beam.Cut a strip of 3/4" plywood, (Use underlayment ply, as Mike suggests.), that is an inch to an inch and a half taller than the joists, by 8 foot long. Cut enough of These strips to go from one end of the beam completely to the other.This is Piffin's "shim". And yes, it should simply be run the length of the beam, instead of one joist at a time...Glue and screw these strips to the side of the beam. Flush with the bottom. In essence, they will become yet another lamination of the beam itself. Bringing the beam out to a snug fit with the joists.If you have a joist or two that are cut even shorter than that, it is ok to put an extra shim behind that single joist. Cut the joist so that another piece of the same plywood will make a snug fit. Make the shim at least 18" long. Center it on the joist. Glue and screw it. Just as you did with the rest.Now replace the hangers, keeping things flush with the bottom of the beam.
A person with no sense of humor about themselves, has no sense at all.
Edited 4/18/2005 9:32 pm ET by Luka
Hey Luka,
Thanks for your comments! Actually, I thought I had mentioned it but maybe not! We are definitely fixing the hangers and we will be doing exactly as you described. I totally agree that what they did was completely wrong.
Hopefully I'll be posting some more pictures soon of the new framers we got and they work they will do!
Thanks again!
-Kacy
Kacy, that corner board treatment in "flashing2" pic is wrong. The corner boards are lapped wrong and the side board is 5/8" too long. You need to cut that board up at least 1/2" to allow air to circulate under it. If you don't do that, the board will wick up water continuously and rot out prematurely.
The configuration of the corner board treatment causes a water trap. If they had lapped the boards differently, the step flashing could slide through the corner board and come out flush with the board.
I have more comments, but I don't want to hawg the show here.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I agree about keeping the cornerboards short enough to prevent wicking and rot, and lapping them the right way to drain water outbut tell us what you relly think.
Would you tape over the step flashing or fit the steps under the Tyvek?
How could they have possibly gotten those windows misaligned that bad?
Why is there some plywood wall sheathihg at one and an osb at another?
What kind of headers are those over the windows?Do you understand what the beam is doing there?Is this kind of hack work common in your part of the country?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Well to answer a few of your questions...
The reason there is plywood and OSB on the same wall is because the plywood was already there. (remember this is a remodel) The sheeting used before was a foam board which covered most of the wall. But for some reason there was a piece of plywood on one spot. They re-sheeted the rest of the walls with OSB but I guess they just left the plywood where it was.
I don't know how the heck they botched those windows so bad. But we will for sure be asking the new framer to fix it.
Yeah, you're totally right about those double doors. They are totally out of wack. But actually they're not Anderson doors. They are Timber Roots doors. We did ask them to put a silicone bead on the sill and they said they did. But since we have to re-install the door (since it's so off) we hope that they did not. I guess we'll see.
Hmm, the headers over the windows are either 2 x 8's or 2 x 10's? I can't remember. But remember that the reason the wall is built out with 2 x 4's is because there were adjoining two walls that were not flush to begin with. We are dealing with a house built in the 1920's that has been added onto two times already (not including our addition). So one of the additions was built more out so the previous owners wouldn't have to tear off all the old siding of the old house. Therefore when we ripped everything off (including all the old siding), the walls weren't flush anymore. The carpenters "built out" the outside of one of the walls (with 2 x 4's) and the inside of the wall shown with the windows. I think that's what you were seeing.
Yeah, I do understand what the beam is doing, at least the basics. The beam is holding up the roof and all the ceiling joists. But we couldn't fit the beam in where the old load bearing wall was so it is moved more towards the ridge until it would fit. I guess I didn't completely understand the question.
And by the way, we absolutely are getting all this stuff fixed (this is kinda in response to Framer's post too). We've already talked to UBuildit about the problems we've brought up here and the new framer is working out the quote now. We should know by this week sometime what it's going to cost us. My husband and I are not ones to skimp on quality when it comes to the structural elements of our house. When we find a structural issue, we get it fixed the best way we can. And we're not going to sit back and allow our windows and doors that are uneven, non-plumb, non-level stay as they are. We are definitely going to make sure that our new guys make it right, no matter what it costs. We are going to be going after our ex-framer to try and get our money back for whatever was done wrong.
We are hoping to live in this house for a really long time (30 years or more) so we are willing to spend the extra money to get things done right. Trust me, we've uncovered several surprises with this house but we've managed to get them all fixed so far! Hopefully it continues that way.
I think it's funny though, how some of you look at this situation and immediately assume all carpenters in this area are hacks! :) I'm sure there are hacks of all sorts in every part of the world! It's just unfortunate we found one of them in ours!
I'll post more later!
-Kacy
glad to have helped
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin your comments were very helpful! I couldn't tell if your post was sarcastic or not. I'm sorry if I did not sound appreciative in my last post. I definitely am! You and the guys on here have helped immensely! We have taken all your insights to UBuildit so they can help us put the fixes in action!
Although I was still wondering about the double doors. Even though they are not Anderson doors do we still need to do something besides silicone on the sill to prevent leaking?
________________________
So here' the pictures of the latest "project." First we ripped out the floors that our ex-carpenters installed. And then we ripped out the old subfloor. We are going with a complete tear out and re-do of the subfloor.
I'm almost afraid of posting these pics to find out we did something wrong! Basically our old floor was old 1 x 6 plank flooring. It was very brittle and breaking all apart. We also have only 2 x 6 floor joists in this part of the house. We plan to sister all the 2 x 6's to add strength to the floor and to even the floor out too.
When we ripped out the subfloors we also uncovered several other issues that we are glad we found. We found in one spot that part of the floor was being supported by 2 x 6's that were acting as a beam. Well the "beam" clearly needed support (other than at the ends) but we found that it was only supported in the center by a few cement blocks with no footing underneath. Well, over the years those blocks have sunk and caused the floor to sag in that location (not surprisingly). So we have to jack it up and either put a stantion pad and post down there to better support it, or we have to get the proper beam down there for the span it's covering. We still have to talk to George (UBuildit) about it on Monday. We just found it this weekend.
We also have another area of the floor that is sagging a good deal so we will have to fix that too. It's such fun finding problem after problem! :)
Hopefully there wont be too many left to find after this. Ripping up almost all the subfloor pretty much revealed everything!
Thanks for all your help!
-Kacy
Me sarcastic?To be honest, yours was one of the first ai found after being offline for a couple days here and I fel thalf asleep. I know you have a new framer and are moving foreward so I don't know if I needed to say mmore detailed stuff. Your sister idea is far better than the old sleeper thing they weere doing. The beam under them looks a little on the light side, so that might be worth checking.The double doors - I had assumed Andersen because all the new windows were Andersen, which comes knocked down for sirte assembly and the asembly caulk is often neglected. I'm not familiar with your brand. As with most things, if manuf instructions are folowed, you generally are OK.Some of muy other comments and questions were more to Blue, I like to play tug of war with him sometimes. He threw out bait by saying he would limit jhis comments but relaly had more to say, so I was pulling on him. Joe carola ( Framer) pretty well filled in the blanks if there was any doubts. Joe can frame anything for me anytimme.Keep on keeping on
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Actually Piff, I'm not taking the bait. I'm not that interested to scrutinize Kacy's frame, nor criticize the framers. She's in good hands with u build it and I'm sure they will get her up to speed. Also, I've already offered my services to her because she lives in the 'hood, but she declined. She had a window of opportunity and if she had called me when I first offered, she'd be showing pictures of the completed rough frame right now, with all the details fixed.
I just did a thousand dollars of repairs on the house the was framed next to us. That house was the one shown in the panelization thread last December. I'm actully pretty good at boogerin bad frames up to respectable levels. Kacy missed out, but at least now she sticking with "U Build It" "certified" subs. I don't measure up at this point, but I don't mind either.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Hey Blue,
I'm really am sorry about not going with you and your guys but you have to admit we've taken quite a beating from a certain UBuildit VP for using a framer not "recommended" by Pete and George in the first place.
Now, supposedly, if we keep using Pete and George's subs, they are assuring us that "all will go relatively well" from this point on! I just was getting a little frustrated with Christie's constant reminder, basically saying..."all Kacy's problems are a result of her not using UBuildit's subs."
I mean, how many times do I need to hear that to take it to heart. So from now on, I'm not offering her any more ammo. We will use Pete and George's subs and we will see if UBuildit can live up to its promises. You know? It was totally nothing personal.
I mean, imagine me calling up George and saying, "Hey George, we found ourselves a new framer! We met him on the internet and even though we've never actually met him before we still want to use him." Don't you think he would've been a little hesitant? I mean, we just got done using a UBuildit approved vendor and we got screwed. Why did we get screwed? Because our UBuildit office had only a limited relationship with this guy. Well, now if we came to him about you it seems like they would have the same concern. They only have a limited relationship with you too? They only just met you a few weeks ago.
You know I'm not comparing you and your work to our ex-framer at all because I truly believe you are a great carpenter. You have proved that several times in things that you have caught from our pictures. But at this time, due to the circumstances, we just have to go with the guys UBuildit wants us to go with.
I just felt like you were trying to get a few digs into me a little bit with your response to Piffin. Maybe I misread it and if I did, I apologize. I guess I just want you to fully understand why we didn't take you up on your offer!
Thanks again for all you help and I am really sorry if I offended you at all!
-Kacy
Here's the letter we sent to our ex-Framers yesterday. I'll post it in several posts so it doesn't get truncated:
Dear XXX: <!----><!---->
<!---->
Mike and I are writing you this letter to officially inform you that we no longer want XXXXXX to continue any further construction work on our house. <!---->
<!----> <!---->
The quality of work we have been receiving from your company for the past 5 ½ weeks has been erratic. In addition to the quality issues, the lack of communication with us from you and your employees has been unacceptable. Your decision to not return our phone calls or messages has been completely irresponsible. Also, your decision to not show up to any of our recently scheduled meetings has clearly indicated your lack of integrity as a business owner and your lack of interest in our project. We have given you many chances to prove to us that you and your company were serious about completing this job and you failed every time.<!---->
<!----> <!---->
You indicated to us in our first meeting with you in January that our job would take approximately 3 weeks to complete. You also stated that once your workers started on a job, they would not leave until the job was complete. It has now been 8 ½ weeks since your carpenters started on our house and two of the weeks we had no one working on our site at all. The past 3 ½ weeks your carpenters have shown up sporadically, oftentimes with only 2 carpenters on site at a time. They rarely work a full day and sometimes go missing from the site for hours at a time as has been witnessed by ourselves, our UBuildit consultant, our family members, and by other subcontractors working on our house. Consequently, your carpenters have accomplished very little on our site in the last 3 ½ weeks and the quality of some of the work completed is questionable. We have tried to contact you regarding this but your unwillingness to communicate with us has made it nearly impossible to get these issues resolved.<!---->
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The final straw for us was the recent problem that has come up with the leveling of our floors. My husband and I had spoken with you and your carpenters several times about the existing issue of the floors of our house not being level. You assured us every time that your carpenters could make all the floors in our house level with each other. This task was included in the first change order which was signed by both you and me. You and your carpenters told us that you would accomplish this leveling of the floors by furring up the floors of the existing house so that they matched the rear part of the house and the new addition. Never at any time did you or your carpenters indicate that this would be a problem. <!---->
<!----> <!---->
When I arrived at the house on Monday, April 4 around 4:30, the carpenters had already left and I saw that they had started work on the floors. They had begun to build up the part of the existing floor that met the floor of the rear addition. At that point, it looked like they were in the process of gradually trying to slope the floor back down so that it would eventually match up with the addition on the North side of the house. However, they had only completed about 1/3 of the floor when I saw it so there was no indication that it would not turn out as we wanted.
Continued Next Post... <!---->
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Edited 4/19/2005 10:10 am ET by kcmarie122
Mike and I returned the following day around 5:00 and saw a very different situation with respect to the floors. The floor was now almost completely done but it was done differently than the way they had started it the day before. This new way resulted in an outcome that was very different than what we had agreed on. Your carpenters clearly made a decision at some point that day to change the way they were leveling the floors. The decision they made resulted in a 2 1/2†step between the living room floor and the new addition floor. This was clearly not what we wanted nor agreed to. At no time did we ever say that it was acceptable for the floors to not be level to each other. At no time did we ever sign anything that indicated our approval of deviating from the signed change order. We had made it clear from the beginning that the end result was to have all the floors level throughout the whole house. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Your carpenter made the decision without even a phone call to us. He decided to build the floor in a manner completely inconsistent with the signed contract. The result of that decision was a loss of 2 days worth of work by your carpenters and a loss of approximately $850 of lumber materials to us. Had your carpenters called us the moment they realized that the floor was not working out the way they intended, we could have come out immediately to assess the situation and to come up with a solution that we all agreed on. This would have minimized the material loss and minimized the amount of work your carpenters spent on doing it the wrong way. However your carpenter did not call us. He took it upon himself to make the decision that it was ok to violate the agreement of the change order. <!---->
<!----> <!---->
It is clear in the fax you sent us on 4/11/05 which included a $1500 change order that you are asking us to pay for the mistake of your carpenters. We agree that removing the existing subfloor was not in the original contract or change orders, but you are not only asking us to pay for that but also for the additional time it would take to tear out the floor that your carpenters installed incorrectly. We do not feel that we should have to pay for that part of the job. In addition, we feel that we should be reimbursed for part of the materials that your carpenters ruined by continuing to work when they knew there was a problem. Had your carpenter called us right away, it would have saved us approximately 2/3 of the materials purchased for the floor. <!---->
<!----> <!---->
The result of all of these issues is that we no longer have any confidence that your company will be able to complete the items agreed to on our original contract and on the additional change orders in a timely manner and to a sufficient level of quality. That is why we have decided that we do not want your company to do any more construction work on our job.
Continued Next Post...
We also wanted to inform you that we have no intention of paying you any additional money for the job. In fact, we have included an attachment which lists all of the items not completed on the original contract and on the two change orders. As you can see, we have overpaid you $XXXX for the job. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
This amount takes into account the money we paid you for the roofing materials; the money that you would not refund to us as we asked, and as you originally agreed to do, but instead applied to the balance of the construction contract against our will. Therefore, we expect a certified check to be delivered to us within two weeks refunding the money we paid you for the work your company did not complete or completed incorrectly. If we do not receive the check in that timeframe we can assure you that we will be contacting our lawyer again to pursue further legal action.<!---->
<!----> <!---->
Additionally, if you decide not to refund our money, we want you to know that we will not only be suing you for the amount listed above, but also for the following items:<!---->
<!----> <!---->
Any additional amount charged to us by the new Framer to fix mistakes found at a later time which were a result of your carpenters’ work.<!---->
Lumber materials ruined by your carpenters.<!---->
The money we paid to rent the Porta John that was on site for your carpenters during the times when they did not show up for reasons other than the weather.<!---->
All cost sanctions and attorney fees<!---->
<!----> <!---->
To aide us in any legal proceedings we have fully logged all the days your carpenters worked and what work was done. We have taken pictures and video of all the work not completed and the work done incorrectly. We feel you would be very interested to see what we found when we ripped out the floor your carpenters put down, all of which we have on video. <!---->
<!----> <!---->
Additionally we have cell phone records showing the many calls we have made to both you and your carpenters, most of which were not returned. We also made recordings of the voicemail messages left for us by both of you during the past month making promises that were not kept. <!---->
<!----> <!---->
We truly hope that we can settle this matter without going through the legal system but we will not hesitate to do so if the matter is not resolved in the manner we have suggested in this letter. Please contact us as soon as possible to let us know how you plan to proceed.<!---->
<!----> <!---->
Sincerely,<!---->
<!----> <!---->
Kacy and Mike
________________________________________
We'll see if we hear back from him, but I doubt it...
A bit wordy, but it really explains the situation VERY well and spells out exactly what is going to happen. Good letter.
If he is smart, he will send you a refund in a hurry and cut his losses.
jt8
Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow. -- Mark Twain
Hey John and Blue,
Thanks for your comments regarding the letter. Yeah, I knew it came out a little wordy but there was a reason for explaining so much detail.
You see, when the problem with the floors first came up we called the owner of the framing company to meet with him to discuss what happened and why it happened. He said he would meet with us on site to see what was going on. Well, he never showed. Then we rescheduled the meeting 3 different times but he always canceled or just did not show...every time.
So the lead carpenter is the one who made the big mistake and we know that the owner only heard one side of the story, the carpenters story who was just trying to cover his own a-s-s. So the letter not only was to ask him to pony up the money but also to explain the actual floor situation from our perspective. Now he knows exactly why we feel we are justified in asking for that money back.
So yes, it was wordy, but we had to get our side of the story across since he never gave us a chance to tell it directly to him.
Now that we've given him the whole story, if he does not respond or does not give us our money, we will have our lawyer write him a letter. Because at that point there would really be no further explanation needed. Just a little muscle to show him we're serious about suing him, which we are!
Also, I didn't include the entire letter to avoid naming names (I don't want to be accused of slander). But at the end we mentioned that we were awaiting his response and depending on how he responded we would be cc:-ing the letter to the Michigan Department of Labor...etc. and also cc:-ing our lawyer (the actual name of the firm)
But good suggestion Blue! George from UBuildit thought of that one.
Thanks for your comments and I will post how it all goes down!
-Kacy
Edited 4/21/2005 12:41 pm ET by kcmarie122
Nice letter Kacy.
I probably would have let my attorney write it, or at least review it, but all in all, it's a tough letter to receive. Good for you!
You failed to mention one significant action. You should have explained that a letter of complaint was promptly going out to the building department and state of michigan licensing bureau if the check and release forms weren't promptly signed.
Well, folks, now you know what my competition is like in Michigan! Unfrotunatly, these contractors are also dictating the price structure in the framing industry. I'm sure they would be underbidding everything we bid by at least 25% with the builders.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
"Well, folks, now you know what my competition is like in Michigan! Unfrotunatly, these contractors are also dictating the price structure in the framing industry."
That sure sums up a lot of what's wrong in the construction industry today.
Kacy, seriously, I mean no harm to you. I fully understand your position and simply explained that to Piffin. He was baiting me into scrutinizing and critiquing your entire job and I simply don't do that. I did offer one tidbit about the step flashing corner board issue because that detail is something that many framers don't think about.
Everyone here is making a big deal about joist that might be 3/4" short of the header, but I don't have enought information to say that is wrong. They all want to automatically tell you that the hangers won't support it, but I don't agree. It is theoretically possible that those hangers will be more than adequate to support some ceiling joist with relatively little weight on it. I'm not saying that is the case, I'm just saying that it's too hard to determine by reading on the net.
I also went on to tell Piffin that you were in good hands with Ubuild it. I believe that because I met Pete and I simply believe that he will do a thorough walk through and give good advise as to what really needs to be fixed and what is simply just ugly looking carpentry that will disappear under the board.
I simply made the statement that you'd be all wrapped up and done only as a statement as to our capabilities as a crew. I had a window of opportunity to do something and I know that I can get things done. Nothing vindicitive about it, it's simply a matter of fact! In fact, I'm willing to put our crew up against any one that Ubuild it supplies and I'd go head to head against any crew that I've ever met in the state!
No harm done, no harm intended, I'm just stating the facts!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Ok Blue! That's cool. I guess I just mis-interpreted your post. I have so appreciated all your help so far and I just hated to think that you had bad feelings about it. Glad to hear that you don't! :)
-Kacy
I have seen the Michigan Dept of Labor at work. Only the situation was in reverse of yours, quality work customer refusing to pay.
My dad was ( he is gone from us now) a retired Journeyman Tool Maker from Kalamazoo. He and mom moved into my grandfathers house up near Marquette. He was able to contract the making of 2 bearings for the landing gear of an small aircraft. 2 other men had spent 2 weeks making these bearings at $1,000/ bearing. The bearings didn't work. The deal that my dad had made was like work like pay. Dad had spotted a lath against the wall and 2 hours later the aircraft was going down the runway.
When dad went to get paid the man handed him $20. Dad didn't hesitate to use the mans own telephone to call MDL and did it right in front of the mans face. They showed up 4 hours later, flying in from Lansing. Made the man pay my dad what he owed him. My dad is on record at MDL as being worth $1,000 / hour.
My point being that MDL will act on this.
I also suggest that you send letters of complaint to the Better Business Bureau and the local Chamber of Commerce of where HIS office is located.
Contact your attorney and find out what would happen if this man files bankruptcy, before the President signs the new bankruptcy bill in to law. If he refuses to pay and files bankruptcy before you can get a judgment on him, it will really muck up the works. It wouldn't be impossible to get your money, but would be that much more difficult. If I understand the new bankruptcy bill, he will not be able to do that.
Good luck in this unfortunate part of your new house.
DaneI will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
Thanks Dane!
That's a great story and good to hear from my perspective! We are at least giving him the chance to respond though before we do that. (Not that we should...) But also some good points about bankruptcy. I hope he doesn't end up doing that. Although he probably wouldn't mind doing it because he doesn't intend on keeping his framing business going anyway. That's how we found ourselves in this situation to begin with. When a guy stops caring about the reputation of his company (he's closing up shop anyway), he doesn't care what kind of work his carpenters are doing.
We'll see how it goes. We still haven't heard anything from him yet. But we will definitely be contacting our lawyer soon to see what the best way to proceed is.
Thanks again for the advice!
-Kacy
...I just was getting a little frustrated with Christie's constant reminder, basically saying..."all Kacy's problems are a result of her not using UBuildit's subs." I mean, how many times do I need to hear that to take it to heart.
Marie - I didn't take it that way at all. Basically, Christie was defending UBuildIt, not attacking you. It was your choice to go with that framer, and while UBuildIt may have preferred another sub, they didn't make waves over your choice. But when things went sour with the framer, and it was presented here in a public forum, then they felt the need to defend themselves, and their stable of "approved" subs. As I recall, Christie only brought it up as often as the issue arose, no more no less. She had it to fall back on, so she did.
I mean, we just got done using a UBuildit approved vendor and we got screwed. Why did we get screwed? Because our UBuildit office had only a limited relationship with this guy.
To me this incident only illustrates the perils of the construction process. I'm not sure the reason you got "screwed" was as simple as saying "Because our UBuildIt office had only a limited relationship with this guy." Every individual that works on your project, and every contracting entity, is likely capable of good performance, and bad performance. And while sometimes you have a sub or a tradesman who just falls down on the job no matter what you do, its the job of the construction manager to try to ensure that every tradesman, and every subcontracting entity, gives their best performance on his (her) job.
That's a tall order, and it entails foresight and planning, knowing a little (or a lot) about each trade and how it dovetails with other trades and fits into the big picture of the finished product, knowing how to read blueprints, knowing applicable building codes, knowing industry standards of acceptable and unacceptable craftsmanship, knowing how to get the information you don't know, and in my opinion, knowing a little about psychology. It also entails a lot of observation /communication / coordination on a daily basis (some call it "babysitting", and its a vital part of the construction management process). There's a lot that can go wrong on even a small project. The original skepticism about a construction consultant being compared (price-wise) to a general contractor arose from that fact.We who supervise construction projects for a living know how difficult it is to avoid / solve the type of problems that can arise in construction. We feel your frustration, and we're rooting for you. But your incident with the framer does lend itself to an appreciation for the complexity of the construction process, and a measure of respect for those who have a proven track record of quality results, does it not?
Hey Huck,
I absolutely agree with you! After starting this project I have a whole new appreciation for what it takes to coordinate a job of this magnitude. I have always respected GC's and builders for what they bring to the table. But now I also have that additional firsthand experience which has shown me exactly how difficult it is to get a big project done and done right! Let's just say that as fun as it can be sometimes, there's a far greater number of times when it's just been a big PITA.
I know I'm going to be thrilled with the final product but I don't plan on doing this again...ever! :)
Thanks for your support about the UBuildit thing too. I just felt like sometimes her defense of UBuildit came across as just another slam against us. And if it was a slam (which you don't think it was and maybe you're right) I didn't think the slam was warranted since our UBuildit office had approved this sub. We didn't twist their arm at all to use that framer.
But you're also right in that there's really no 100% guaranteed way of not getting screwed. So it's not like there's any one person or company to blame (except the a-hole framers that is). So I wont take Christi's comments as such (blame that is) nor have we ever blamed UBuildit. Like I said before it really was just bad luck!
Thanks again for your comments! :)
-Kacy
Why did we get screwed? Because our UBuildit office had only a limited relationship with this guy.
Ya got screwed beacuse U weren't there every day, and when U were ... you didn't know what to look for. Like U said .. there's alot to building a house.
and I'm not trying to beat ya up on this ... just suggesting a little more site time and paying closer attention. An experienced GC doesn't have to be on site 8 hrs a day 5 days a week ... they're experienced .... a first timer .... I'm thinking a little more than showing up after work with flashlights is to be expected if U are to be the captain of that ship.
I don't think UBuildIt's job is the handhold U the whole time ... that's what a paid GC is for.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Ya got screwed beacuse U weren't there every day, and when U were ... you didn't know what to look for. Like U said .. there's alot to building a house.
Sorry but I really don't feel that comment is 100% correct. We did not get screwed just because we weren't there everyday. We got screwed because the sub decided to screw us.
The sub decided not to show up for two weeks...is that because we weren't there everyday? Somehow I think that we could've shown up every day, all day, for those two weeks and you know what, they still wouldn't have come.
We got screwed because we (and UBuildit) had no pull with the sub. We yelled and screamed as much as we could but he didn't have to listen to us, i.e. he didn't have to show up. We also got screwed because we paid them too much up front. We have accepted full responsibility for that (many times).
Yeah, when they did finally come back on site it would've helped if we had been able to be there a little more. But we did spend several days (all day) on site with them. But a person should not have to babysit their sub 24/7.
Therefore, we will choose our subs differently now. We will choose subs that have enough pride and integrity to do a good job without being babysat. Subs that don't need a GC looking over their shoulder every 5 minutes checking their work. I don't think that's too much to ask. Especially when we're not asking for rock bottom prices.
-Kacy
Edited 4/22/2005 9:05 am ET by kcmarie122
Edited 4/22/2005 12:15 pm ET by kcmarie122
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sobriety is the root cause of dementia.
"We will choose subs that have enough pride and integrity to do a good job without being babysat. "
So ... You've learned nothing from this, have U?
Exactly what do U think the job of a full time GC is ... this is the job you've taken ... what is your role?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
I'll be back when the project's done...
kc, stay here throughout the rest of the project.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
my thoughts exactly. This thread is a classic example of how BT can help have a positive effect on the projects that folks undertake. Just like going to school, the professors can be hard on you, tearing up your term paper when they know it is not up to your ability, and there is always the class clown in the back corner of the room keeping everyone from fallling asleep, and the different factions debating the various issues out in the hall after class.The framing is mostly done, now the hard work begins...and the opportunity for screwups increases.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
true enough paul, the stage for the rest of the production is built.
I've grown fond of this young couple undertaking a pretty ambitious project. You mention the help BT can deliver, but I can't help also noticing the importance of our work that this story magnifies. I've made the association before, our remodels are much like play or a musical composition. They need direction....... a conductor. Sure, anyone can do it, some more successfully than others. But to continually produce a successful project time after time is the art. This is what I take pride in. That's glossying it up a bit, it is still just work.
And even here at BT, where we don't reap any monetary rewards......it's good to know you can still give help that means something. I'd hate for kacy to leave now and probably fade away with the tale unfinished. There's still much to be done in building this thing out. We've taken an interest in it and many want to help it come to fruition with as little goofs as possible.
But then again, this from a dumb carpenter.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I don't think you are glossying it up too much. Remodeling especially is much mopre detaile than new construction - a whole new skill set.I can imagine at least three different potential reasons why KC might feel a need to back away from BT. One is that it takes time - and witha full time job and family on top of her remo project, this forum might feel too timeconsuming. Of course we know that it is really an investment of time and not a ciost.Second is that she may feel too often that she is being picked on, but we are really here to help. We might digress and pick on each other a bit, but this has been overall a very positive thread.Third is possible input from U-buildit. I hate to have someone looking over my shoulder and second handing things, whether an uncle-in-law, an other contractor who feels slighted that he lost the job, or a buch of yahoos from some netherland on the internet. A profusion of too much info can be confusing to a novice, and U-Build could be concerned about the face it gets presented here. In spite of the excellent way Christy has handled everything to do with U-Build comments and she has earned our respect, I seem to remember that there was another U-build office than this one currently hooked to this job who originally found the hacks who framed this addition for KC. Then this different franchisee took on the job being unfamiliar with that sub and advising somewhat agaisnt him, mostly because of their own local unfamiliarity.KC is now ready to proceed more completely under the guidance of the U-Build franchise she is working with. They helped her find a replacement framer and are moving her forward. It is appropriate for her to work with confidence in them, but I could understand their potential reluctance to work under the scrutiny of this "Breaktime Advisory Board" - BAD for short, if you will.;)Nothing she has said implies any of those three reasons. I just speculate scenarios, so I'll have to throw in a pre-apology here for anyone who has just been offended.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Maybe she'll be back at the end. Let's hope her inside finish subs are better than Framer crew #1! I'll be they won't be invited to the wine-and-cheese party.
You guys attending the Breaktime fest should really make a pilgrimage up to her site when you're there. It's probably only a half hour up the road from Toledo.
Watch your step driving in Michigan. Speed limit on the fed highways is 70, with everyone doing +15 over that, and driving big rigs. It is the land of the Motor City.
Gene, an hour and a half and that's driving like the michiganders, she's up above the motor. I've been hoping to get her and the husband to come down, easier maybe than trying to get a dozen imports around all the crap laying in the road. I apologise to Kacy for not taking the time to drive up b/4 it got nasty.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Don't wai that long - but you'll dedserve braggers rights by then.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I haven`t been following the whole thread throughout your project but parts here and there. But in the old days when I subbed to GC`s or homeowners acting as a GC, I only had one GC homeowner who saved money and had a fine looking project. She was very organized and on the project every day and all day. She only left to pick up materials. I was the carpentry sub who was in effect solving the problems with the subs. A GC is needed to first anticipate problems and when the problems do occur he/she can solve them as quickly and inexpensively as possible without creating more problems down the road.
Your next house will be better.
Kacy,
I'm an owner-builder starting my second project, so I've been following your progress. One of the things I've noticed about Breaktime is the habit of saying "I told you so." They can offer a lot of great advice, but I personally would go to the "That Home Site Forums" if you want more support and encouragement and a little less "constructive criticism" (no pun intended). Our first project was through a company similar to U-Build-It. I was very organized and on the site every day. Our subs were mostly terrific with a few mediocres thrown in. At the end of six months we were two weeks from completion when we had record rainfall, so my husband decided to look in the crawlspace to see how dry it was. He looked in and saw his face reflected in 2-1/2' of water. To make a long, $20,000 story short -- we raised the house, built 3' pony walls, sunk a sump pump in the old crawl space, and filled it with gravel. We loved that house. It was like having a baby -- we suffered through carrying it, but what we got in the end was worth every pain. When we had to move 3-1/2 years later for my husband's job we sold it in two weeks for a $65,000 profit. What people in construction don't understand about O-B's is that we're doing it for the challenge and the results. It might be easier to have someone else do the job for you, but you'll never get the same satisfaction. When things go wrong with your project you have only have one alternative: solve the problem as quickly as you can and move forward. Keep the end in site, and remember that people like to criticize more than they like to offer encouragement -- especially if they feel some upstart has entered the arena.
So ... You've learned nothing from this, have U?
Exactly what do U think the job of a full time GC is ... this is the job you've taken ... what is your role?
Jeff, what's your problem? This is not constructive criticism, this is just being a prick. I'm sure we could take a poll and find full time GC's who have had the same kind of problem as KC. Being a "professional GC" might mean you have the experience to avoid some common pratfalls, but it doesn't keep you from getting screwed over by a sub.
KC and DH are working full time, doing the family thing, plus undertaking the remodel. They've acknowledged that they're not experts and have brought in folks to try and cover their shortcomings (Ubuilt & BT'ers). For God's sake, cut them some slack. They are here for ideas and support, NOT criticism. Especially criticism after the fact. jt8
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits. -- Mark Twain
This thread has been pretty amazing. Maybe I'm a "half-full" kind of girl, but I've seen lots of reasonable and caring people helping, commenting, and more than a few say "that happens to the best of us". Managing subs is part of the deal.....it just is. However, Having a sub go off on a holiday during a job, but crappy work is another deal altogether.
We don't see these kinds of problems often, because just like you guys, we work with some kick-butt subs. Construction is full of mistakes and misunderstandings and sometimes errors, but if it were easy, everyone could do it, ya know?
There's only been one or two people who have been ugly the entire time I've been posting here..............It's just humanity, man. Like I said, maybe I'm a pollyanna, but them are darn good odds.
Hopefully, the new framers will work their magic and the rest of the job will go smoothly. I'm hoping Kacy will be back and update us on her wonderful new house.
Jeff's a decent feller, too. Lippy, but decent. :)
-c
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
Yeah, we've all been burned by a sub falling down on the job. Even when you're there every day - I had one plumber on a fairly large commercial remodel who just wasn't getting his job done. Yet, every day he was there, I knew because I'd see his truck show up every morning, and stay all day. But I could never find him when I looked. Finally I watched one morning, and figured out his M.O. He'd pull in two trucks, park one on the job, the guys would jump into the other one, and head out to another job. I too was impressed by the level of genuine concern, interest and insight that was being offered to Marie, gratis. My post to Marie was just to say basically that things can go wrong every day of a construction project, the manager has to look at it from the standpoint that - OK, a million things can go wrong today, so what are the likely trouble spots this day, and what can I do to prevent/solve these inevitable problems, and what can I do to make tomorrow a little more trouble-free. Marie seemed (understandably) angry about her situation with her framer, but when you've been doing this long enough, you learn to see beyond your initial frustration and anger, and say "What can I learn from this, what could I have done to prevent or minimize or foresee this problem, what could I do differently next time." Which is what I felt Jeff was saying also - you've got to be there, or you're just inviting problems. Not meaning all day every day (which would be nice if it were possible), but meaning you have to be in touch with the pulse of the project on a daily basis, visiting the site at least once a day, better yet (for someone with a daytime job) once in the morning, and again in the afternoon. We'd all love subs that don't need babysitting, but the truth is, the project is your "child", and have you ever met a child that didn't need parenting? The challenge is to do it right and watch the baby grow into an upstanding legacy of its parent.And no, I don't see that as Monday morning quarterbacking, since she still has a large part of the project ahead of her, any lessons learned now still have plenty of opportunity to improve the final outcome.Remodeling will give you grief and gray hairs, if you decide to manage it yourself at least you can say you earned those gray hairs!
Edited 4/25/2005 1:14 pm ET by Huck
There's only been one or two people who have been ugly the entire time I've been posting here..............It's just humanity, man. Like I said, maybe I'm a pollyanna, but them are darn good odds.
...Jeff's a decent feller, too. Lippy, but decent. :)
I was surprised by Jeff's response. Usually he's one of the ones dishing out heaping helpings of good info. I initially thought he was just having a bad day, but he had a couple posts in this thread that seemed unnecessarily abrasive.<!----><!---->
I think some of the 'professional' guys don't understand how thin-skinned you become when you're doing this stuff on the side. Doesn't take much to set you off. Something that was intended as humor can be taken as criticism. But in the case of Jeff's response, I do NOT think it was an attempt at humor.<!---->
KC & DH are just rising from the low point of the process. They are at a delicate spot, and certainly don't need someone rubbing their noses in the problems. They need Ubuiltit's assistance in order to finish their project, but they don't NEED BT. So if it becomes a hassle, they can just as easily walk away from BT rather than have to deal with another hassle.<!---->
Personally I think people like KC (and Lisa?) are interesting to hear from. They give a slightly different perspective. I hate to see them walk away.<!---->
jt8
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits. -- Mark Twain
Agreed.
A person with no sense of humor about themselves, has no sense at all.
John
I disagree with you on Jeff's comments.
I think what hes saying, and I'm sure he will straiten both of us out, is that some HO wants to be a GC then except the job of the GC.
This ain't all fun and games, and its not all that easy. Theres a lot of responsibilities with the job and you better be prepared for it, if not then maybe you shouldn't be doing it.
Sometimes the best way to say that is to not sugarcoat it.
Doug
TRUE< THERE IS A MYTH OUT THERE THAT A GC makes a multitude of money without doing anything more than writing a few checks and making out a few bills. KC is simply going thru a de-mythologizing process
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin
KC is simply going thru a de-mythologizing process
Very well said!
Doug
I hope that she comes back as well. I have learned so much about using subs and other things from this thread.
I know that there will be times when I will have to hire subs.
As with any trade, blue collar or white collar, there are going to be those bad apples that leaves a nasty taste in ones mouth. Some people will stick there hand back into the barrel and get another apple knowing that that one was a small number of the total in the barrel. Others will shy away from apples for ever all because of the one bad one.
KC's thread has shown us some of the things that can go wrong on a construction sit and Mike Smith in an other thread has shown us what a good contractor has to do to fix up a bad contractors bad work.
I hope that KC shares with us what the new framer does to correct all of the problems that the old one had made.
I also pray that her experience with this one bad sub doesn't ruin her enjoyment of her new house in the future.
DaneI will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
Well, I haven't been able to read the entire thread due to time constraints, but it has certainly informed me! In spite of the fact that I KNOW how hard a GC has to work to get things done correctly, and the fact that my experience is small, I was still toying with the idea of using UBuildIt or a similar service to build our 'dream cabin' in the mountains (there is a UBuildIt representative in a nearby town in the same county). However, I think I need to go with a local GC who can do the job right - I am not able to be on site every day to make sure things go smoothly, and I think I would end up spending more rather than saving money.
Of course all of this is before we've even purchased the land - we need to look at it again before we make an offer.
You can contact me directly if you like. We're running hundreds of jobs right now and I know of 2 that have experienced problems like this. Overall, things normally go very smoothly.
What area are you in?
-c
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
I'm in Utah. We would be building in the mountains above Heber, which is about 15 min away from Park City. I had thought that something like UBuildIt would work for us so we can finance as we go, rather than a great big loan all at once. Once the structure is dried in, we'd want to take our time and do the finish jobs as we got the money for the various subs.
We've got 4 offices in Utah, one in Park City. Tom's a great guy.
The loan products available to you would be construction (up to 100%) with no payments until completion, so that would be easier than mini-loans. You would just get draws at the major stages of construction.
Lots of folks in Utah are heavily involved in the process and do some work themselves.
Anyway, if you want to talk to me or Tom, just say the word.
Our website has good info, as well.
The benefits of using us for assisted owner builder are in the access to good subs, on-site construction expertise, discounts for labor and materials, help with permitting, and financing.
-c
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
Thanks. There's a lot about home building that we enjoy, hence wanting to do some ourselves and pick and choose what to sub out. Having put an addition onto our house without benefit of a GC (too small of a job during the boom of a few years ago), I have a very real understanding of how much work it is, and how much experience is required; as well as an appreciation for how important (and valuable) relationships with good subs are. Because we are far enough away not to be able to go to our proposed site every day, I think a GC will probably be the smarter way to go. But we may change our minds and revisit the idea if our situation changes.
For God's sake, cut them some slack. They are here for ideas and support, NOT criticism. Especially criticism after the fact.
actually ... I thought they were here to learn.
Learn how not to have this happen again.
I didn't intend any humor ... I intended to be straight forward.
criticism can be constructive too.
It's not my money ... I could care less what these people do ... but I see a problem.
Not being on site enough. I know a solution ... be there more.
Plus ... when U are there ... know enough to look ahead.
Pretty simple.
Won't solve all the worlds problems ...
But it'll help.
Just telling someone "hey, that sucks" ... doesn't do anything but make them feel better.
You're just lucky my Dad doesn't know how to turn on a computer .... U think I'm bad!
He'll give U a whole new understanding of "constructive criticism"!
Yer a$$ will sting for a while ... but it'll be a lesson U don't soon forget.
I never log on to be nice ... I log on to help spread a little common sense.
Sometimes the truth hurts.
But we can all use a daily dose.
I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad ... and I can say if they follow my advice their build will get better. They are just starting ... better get a grip on this thing and fast.
"Exactly what do U think the job of a full time GC is ... this is the job you've taken ... what is your role?"
Those are very honest questions they have to ask and answer for themselves.
"KC and DH are working full time, doing the family thing, plus undertaking the remodel."
yeah ... life's tough. Figure out ways to make it easier. Or pay someone to do if for you. It ain't all hugs and kisses out there ...
Jeff
Jeff, yes sometimes the truth hurts...But you don't have to make sure that happens !While I agree with a lot of what you have said in this thread, I totally disagree with how you say it.I was going to say that you need to take a semester or two at some charm school, but I think it goes deeper than that.It was a wonder that Kacy didn't take your responses personally sooner than she did. You obviously meant them personally...You come across overall, as pissed that some upstart has taken food off your plate. It seems as if there is some underlying dread on your part that more people will try the ubuildit way, and otherwise try to be their own GC's and take business away from you. So, you have to rub Kacy's nose in any little thing you can find to do so with. Gotta prove to those HO's out there that they don't know anything, and they should hire you instead.You have been unneccessarily harsh. And your "I told you so" attitude really sucks.Hiding behind euphemisms does as much good in this case as hiding behind a twig. Everyone can see the superior attitude.Someone here has a tagline, "The truth told with bad intent, is worse than any lie you could invent". That is what I see in your posts in this thread.You take the truth, the things that I can agree with... and you use it with bad intent... For example... The fact that to do the role of GC effectively, takes a lot more than just part time work. Being on the jobsite in the late evenings, and weekends is not enough. Plus, the fact that a GC has worked with many subs before, and has some experience in weeding out the bad ones...Very simply point out the facts alone, and let them speak for themselves. It takes more than part time on the jobsite, to effectively do the job of GC. Without the experience of a local GC who has worked with the local sub-contractors out there, it is easy to end up with a bad experience with a sub-contractor.Any reasonable person is going to read that, and realize where they screwed up, and/or how it just might have been better if they HAD hired a local GC. They don't have to be hit over the head with it...Any reasonable person who is considering doing the OB thing, is also going to read that and realize that there may be more to it than they realized. It IS possible to communicate that without coming across like... "You idiot ! You can't even be there all the time, let alone tell a good sub from a bad one ! You see how you screwed up again ??!? Go back to your regular job and leave the work to those who already know how to do it !!"....The truth does not HAVE to hurt.And when the truth alone hurts, we do NOT HAVE to add to that hurt to soothe our bruised egos....Taking the offensive approach to communication puts others in exactly that stance.Your approach, instead of educating HO's to your value, simply alienates them. Makes it an us and them situation. Makes it very likely that mr and mrs HO are going to go away resentful that you think they are idiots. And determined to do it themselves anyway...Hugs and kisses...The other Jeff.
A person with no sense of humor about themselves, has no sense at all.
U read too much into things that aren't there.
I'm pretty sure I know what I meant to say. Don't care how U or anyone else feels about how I say it.
stopped reading your post after the first paragraph .. maybe that's covered in there somewhere.
This isn't the "tavern" ... this is business. It's a tough world out there ... learn from it ... learn to roll with the punches then not get hit next time or get yer financial and business a$$ kicked daily.
Simple.
Jeff
Kacy is not here to learn how to be a GC. She is here for help and advice because she got into more than she understood she was going to get into.If this were a jobsite, and she were here to learn how to be a GC, yes... I agree. You takes the punches, and you learn to roll with them. Or you quit.She is in the middle of getting a house built. She needs advice and help. She does not need a dopeslap masquerading as "telling it like it is".You are being an a$$. You are being the opposite of helpful.
A person with no sense of humor about themselves, has no sense at all.
Luka
Your missing an important part.
Kacy is not here to learn how to be a GC
She damn well better learn how because that's what she's doing.
She chose to GC the job, with that comes the responsibility of a GC.
Now you two can continue!
Doug
Doug, I am not missing the point at all.I see it differently.She is not here to learn how to be a GC. She got herself into this mess because she thought she could be a GC. She bought the myth.She needs help dealing with what she now has on her hands.She is not going to go out after this and get a GC's license. She doesn't need to learn how to be a GC, she needs to know what she needs to know right now, to fix the problems she has.---This whole thread is going to become to many people exactly what Piffin most recently described. A de-mything of the "GC myth" That a GC makes a fistful of money off of poor unsuspecting homeowners while doing little more than giving instructions, answering a phone and writing checks...There is obviously a helluva LOT more involved than just that. Experience is the least of the qualifications, yet the most obvious that an average HO does not have...It is not necessary to dopeslap Kacy, and to rub her nose in what has gone wrong. It is as obvious to her as it is, and will be to anyone who reads this thread, that she had no idea what was ahead/involved when she got into it.What IS necessary is to help Kacy to come out of this with as few lumps as possible. Is it necessary to make sure that she gets more lumps ? If anyone doesn't want to help, then they can just as well STFU. More lumps are simply not needed...-----This thread in essence, could end up doing more to dissolve that myth than anything that any of us individually or collectively could ever write to do so ourselves.But with the arrogant "see, I TOLD you", and "What an idiot, you should never have tried it, you don't know what yer doing", crap happening... It is also going to cause a lot of people to just get insulted and not pay any attention to what they could have actually learned.
A person with no sense of humor about themselves, has no sense at all.
KC's not looking to be a GC.
I think she chose to be an owner-builder, and enlisted the help of UBuildIt to do so. She brought her story and photos, and her questions, here so some of us folks could see, and maybe offer some helpful comments.
Now that this thread has taken a whole new turn, and KC ain't here no more to witness the aftermath, I suggest someone start a whole new thread.
Let's have someone here that's a full-time builder, someone who is responsible for the whole package, concept through permits, price-up and subcontracting, all the way to certificate of occupancy, bank closing, and final payment, take us through their job.
But, we gotta play by KC rules: only the mistakes get shown and discussed.
We can call it "Real GC screwups."
Naw, that's a pipe dream. Real GCs never screw up. Right? The subs are always perfect. None of the poured walls are ever on the wrong side of the line. Windows all get set perfect, 100 percent of flashing all in place. Drip edge on the right side of the shingles. And on and on.
why should i embarrass myself here any more than i do every day?
kc got smoked...too bad... luckily she had people here to point out that her dream framer was screwing up by the numbers
just because jeff used the same "in your face" language he uses with us is no reason to call him out..
it looks to me like she had a nice design.. with bad working plans.. a bad foundation... and a a bad GC /framer..
other than that .. what else is new ?
i screw up every day... and then we fix it..
i go on other contractor's jobs... they get screwed up .. the good ones fix it.. the bad ones don't..
good GC's get things fixed ... wether the sub is good .. or bad..
what's your point , gene? building things right is hard... remodeling and additions are harder...
if i was building kc's ... i'd show all the screwups.. and then i'd show all the fixes...
but i'll tell you this ... it wouldn't be as screwed up as that one was.. starting with the foundation... right on thru... those things were Building 101..
if you start at post #1.. right on thru.. you could see the job going south... then getting fixed... then going south... then not getting fixed.. it was out of control..
what does that tell you ?
that the "sub" was incompetent ?.... or that there was a failure to supervise ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
and ..
not for nuttin
.... i think kc is doing just fine.. for a first house ... for her lack of experience... and i applaude her moxie for posting everything she did.. hope she comes back and continues to participate....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
".... i think kc is doing just fine.. for a first house ... for her lack of experience... and i applaude her moxie for posting everything she did.. hope she comes back and continues to participate...."
Me Too!
I also hope she reads better than lotsa the regulars here ...
but maybe isn't as good as "reading into" what's not there.
Jeff
Everything you say is true...But...Just because Jeff used the same in your face language he uses with us is EXACTLY reason to call him out on it.He isn't talking to "us".He is talking to someone who made a mistake, got herself in over her head, and is asking for help.Like I said, everything else you say is true. Fine.So now do we knock her up the side of the head again, and tell her what an idiot she was for trying this... or do we help her ????
A person with no sense of humor about themselves, has no sense at all.
She damn well better learn how because that's what she's doing.
She chose to GC the job, with that comes the responsibility of a GC.
Doug, I might be splitting hairs here, but no... she is not learning how to be a GC, she is trying to put up an addition on her house. The difference might be subtle, but there is a difference.
Her goal is not to learn how to build houses, her goal is to put an addition on her house. And I think she is more than capable of doing the job, even if she is only there part of the time.
In this case, she ran into a bad sub. Maybe with more experience, she would have weathered the bad sub better, however even seasoned GC's run into bad subs. Some of these experienced GC's get burned a lot worse than KC did.
So coming down on her for making the same mistake that probably every GC has made is kinda silly and not a constructive tact to take.jt8
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits. -- Mark Twain
Well, you've done ME some good in this thread anyway. LOLYou got me to simplify.I could've condensed all the rest of what I posted into that one last post, instead.So sue me for being needlessly verbose. As if it isn't expected...; )
A person with no sense of humor about themselves, has no sense at all.
Jeff,What I wrote in the first reply, I almost didn't post.For the same reason I did post it.I know you. I know that you are not going to take what I said in the wrong way, and go pout in a corner, or come back here and dopeslap me.You know me. You know what my motivations are in what I write.There is, of course, always the chance that you won't understand, or that I didn't communicate properly, but that chance is slim by now.But Kacy, and many others here do not have the background to deal with what seems to be insults, but isn't. Either as a forum member, or even as a person who has been in your shoes. The way you say things counts as much as what you say. I almost didn't post, because I am concerned about how you would take it.
I did post because you don't seem the least bit concerned with how people will take what you post.That may float in your local pond, but here the wake it creates, too easily capsizes boats.What you have to say is in my book, more valuable than much of the stuff I read here at BT. We need that.But the value is lost when what you say is said in the way you choose to say it so often. ---I--- Read what you say, and absolutely see the value. The honesty. Piffin does. Doug does. Most people with any experience can see it. And the bluntness doesn't bother any of us a whit...But that's preaching to the choir. With your approach, you alienate the people you really need to be preaching to. Or at least the people who need to be listening... And what I know as bluntness, does actually come off as if you have a superior attitude. An inner fear that makes you bluster to save your ego. Etc...Just think about it.
A person with no sense of humor about themselves, has no sense at all.
U feel better about yourself?
Great.
Now go psychoanalyze someone else. I'm not buying.
My advice was on target for this thread.
Post 14 more messages to make yourself feel better, but these people are attempting to GC their own house. They'd better start acting as GC's. Be on top of everything, communicate with the subs, have a good grasp of construction and the steps involved, and try to be one step ahead of the problems.
Have a level, a laser and a tape. Know how to check for plumb/level/square. Do so before/during/after. Understand what 3-4-5 means and how to make it 6-8-10.
One simple check before the very first of the concrete was poured would have prevented that very first problem. My wife has never GC'd her own house and she knows what 3-4-5 means ...
btw ... this is kinda what I do for a living? I'm not going to step back from telling someone they'd better be educated on the subject before they attempt to do my job.
You wanna be someone's best friend over the internet ... go right ahead.
Me ... I'll stick to giving the best advice I can.
U wanna do the job right( any job) ... get yourself educated ... first.
argue that all U want.
Jeff
No psychoanalyzing needed, or done.You said you didn't read all of it. If you had, maybe you'd have been able to tell the difference between, "seems like", and is...Again, the facts you give are right on.But... You dont have to be an a$$ in the way you present that as "advice".Besides... Telling someone that they have been an idiot, pointing out exactly how, then doing it a couple more times... is not "advice". It is a dopeslap up the side of the head. She came here and asked for help. You don't have to be anybodies friend, Jeff. You don't have to help. But if someone asks for help, and all you have to offer is a dopeslap, then just keep it to yourself.As I said before... when you don't... It SEEMS like you are salving a bruised ego or something.But then... you have already said you really don't care what it seems like.......
In the great plethera of jobs you have done, how many of those people have had you back working for them after you gave them dopeslaps up the side of the head too ?Why is Kacy's need for help any more worthy of a dopeslap than a customer's need for help when they ask you to fix someone else's work ? (Maybe because she isn't paying you ?) Do you dopeslap them too, and tell them what idiots they were for not hiring you in the first place ?And if you think all this is to make myself "feel better", then maybe you need to learn a bit about psychoanalyzing...
A person with no sense of humor about themselves, has no sense at all.
give it a rest Dr Phill.
this thread is far enough off track.
your white stallion is parked out back ...
there's the sunset ...
go take a ride.
I did like the part where U said my facts were right though ...
Jeff
ROFLOLHi-yo Silver !Oh wait ! That's a different guy.
A person with no sense of humor about themselves, has no sense at all.
http://www.iq-145.com/lone%20ranger.jpgand so ends another hard day on rthe trail. be sure to sleep with your silver bullet in a safe place
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hey Everyone,
Sorry to cause a bit of a stir. I do appreciate all the comments made by all of you. I was just here to learn and to share our story. But I got to thinking that maybe I should just come back when we were done to show certain people that we could do it!
Then again, I would love to keep posting updates because I've gotten some great advice from many people. But just for the record, I also get great advice from UBuildit and other people in my life too so I might not always (said hesitantly) take the advice offered here (sorry!).
And I guess I'm just saying now that it's going to be really hard to hear any semblance of "I told you so" every time something goes wrong on our project. (Especially if you did pre-warn us about it and we did not take the advice.) But please realize that, more than likely, I will already be kicking myself for it and hopefully learning from it.
Jeff already e-mailed me a letter explaining his point and I understand where he's coming from (although not that I particularly enjoyed the way he went about saying it.) So that's fine...but just please remember that I'm not a tough, experience-hardened contractor with thick skin. I'm a 28 year old girl/women from Michigan with no construction experience, married only a year, with a full time job, and along with my husband, taking on the biggest project of my life to build the home I will live in and raise my family in for a long long time. Trust me, I'm already feeling the pressure as it is.
I want to know the truth and your honest advice but if you wouldn't mind doing it in a way that is factual and to the point and not quite so abrasive, that would make it a lot more pleasant and worthwhile to stick around! :)
Thanks again for the support of so many of you!
Ok, time to get back on track with this thread! Is there a limit on the number of posts in one thread? Here's some pictures to show how our floors turned out. The new framers really did a great job! And by the way, they finished yesterday. So let's move on to HVAC and Plumbing! Any tips on ways to ANTICIPATE and PREVENT the next problems with those guys? Besides the obvious...1) be very specific about what and where they can cut and 2) spend more time on site! :)
-Kacy
KC, good to see you back. I have no doubt that you are fully capable of managing the project. Some of the battle hardened contractors around here don't realize how useful your trials & tribulations are as lesson for us normal folks. Personally I think most of them have run into the same headaches you did, but they are just more inclined to gloss over their own faux pas (or its been so LONG ago, their memories aren't what they used to be). :)
I think both Luka and myself (and a few others) were getting annoyed at the "I told you so" attitude. If they don't have something constructive to offer, then don't waste everyone's time. And if they're trying to get a lesson across, then they need to put it across in a palatable fashion.
And don't worry about not taking someone's advice. You're the 'man' on the scene and the one who has to make the decisions. Hindsite is always 20/20, and armchair quarterbacks are always going to have the 'correct' answer. We're living in the real world, and in the real world people make mistakes and don't have all the answers. That's the way it goes. You just make do the best you can.
Is flushfloor2 pic showing the old & new? I know your evil-framer wasn't capable of leveling them up, but everything in those pics looks good now. The new framer must be on the ball.
And no, there isn't any limit on the numbers of posts per thread. The "what tool did you buy today" thread is an example. I think it is up in the thousands.jt8
Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits. -- Mark Twain
Thanks John,
That was a very nice post and my feelings exactly! Thanks for the encouragement! And yes, our new framer's did a great job. Yup, that picture shows the new floors and how it matches up with the old floor in the bottom left of the pictures. Most of the floor is dead on. There's only about a 1 ft. section that has about a 1/4" difference between the height of the floors. That's because the old floors were slightly off level.
But thanks again! I will be getting some more pics tonight. All the interior walls are now up and the stairs are built.
-Kacy!
kacy, get all your subs to map out their runs. In a remodel (or new const for that matter) sometimes each trades easy way crosses, which leaves the odd man out and potentially a costly change. Usually the electrician is last on the rough in as his material snakes around easier. Have the plumber figure his drain runs so you can change any framing before anyone starts. Tub and toilet locations sometimes can't move over just a bit. If you have to cut and head off any joist, it's easier before they get started and have run anything. Try to have your larger furnishings figured out so that heat duct or air return doesn't get put where you want to place (the only place for it) things.
Right on the door openings the hinge side, easier on the electrician. Check walls for plumb at each door and adjust if necessary.
Install any blocking for towel bars, tp holders, cabinet mounting, curtain rods, anything that'll be easier to mount with solid backing.
Take pictures of all the rough before insulation/drywall. Make sure you know what those pictures are of with signs or reference points. It's good to go in order, room by room. When you catalogue the pics, group them by room and list in order as you pan around.
Place a time capsule in the wall with family pics, the days paper, a buck, anything us remodelers will think is cool when we tear it apart later.
Place enough trash cans around so they keep the site clean.
There's many more that are second nature to the job, I'm sure several will get posted.
And good to see your face back here..........speaking of which, we know your folks and that husband but I don't believe we've had the pleasure of seeing the author.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Calvin took you into the world of "all that stuff you have to do before you cover it up with sheetrock," and I second everything he said.
Be concerned, that as owner-builder, that you have a framer working that may be used to working with GCs, and not so many O-Bs. The difference is that while a GC typically has the wherewithal (people, tools) to pop in all that blocking and backing, soffits and extra studs, and all the other little woodie things that ought to be spiked into place before the rockers come, most O-Bs don't.
So, have a conversation with your framer, about this "framing" stuff that most framers don't consider "framing." If you own all the tools, nails, and whatever, plus have the time available and know-how, to measure, cut, and install all that necessary wood, maybe he'll do some or all of it for you (he's much more efficient than you,) but if you don't have all this gear and the time, you'll need him. Walk the job and with a crayon, mark out all the stuff he needs to do for you before he drags up.
I'm thinking most everything you'll attach rock to is on 16" centers, but up on your second floor, in your new addition, you have trusses, likely on 24" centers. You are either going to "strap" this ceiling (1x3 furring on 16" centers) or RC-channel it, or not do anything, but use sheetrock made for spanning 24" centers at ceilings. We can't get that type of rock here, but you may be able to get it where you are. Talk to your drywall sub about this. Mine does his own RC furring before rocking the ceilings . . . yours may not.
Speaking of rock, now is the time to start thinking about it, and how to get it all in the building. Where I live, sheetrock is sold by lumberyards, and they only deliver it. They don't distribute it and "stack" it where needed inside. Rock hauling and stacking is done by the GCs . . . and it is tough work. But where you are, you may have sheetrock jobbers for whom this is a part of their everyday service. Get to know all about this stuff. Everything matters, like how many stair turns you have, how big your upstairs windows are where the truck might be able to reach inside with the boom, etc.
Make sure your electrician knows your trim schemes, when he is running around popping in boxes for switches and receptacles. Wide casings, if you have any, mean he has to move his boxes over further. Ask him about quality control, like what he uses to locate his recep boxes above the floor. It is best if he is using a story pole, rather than a tape measure. My guy uses a laser, and a special plumb-up laser to locate all the overhead fixture boxes and cans. I give him the drawings, he lays it out on the floor, and the laser transfers the dots up.
I could go on, but it is time for coffee, in the kitchen.
kc...
on sheetrock delivery..
we try to design a window on the 2d floor that has access for a boomtruck..
with both sash out.. it should have an opening of 54"..
we will leave windows out .. and even cut down rough frame sills to make sure we can get rock delivered to the 2d floorMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
One thing I like to do is to have the plumber walk me around and show me how he thinks the routings should go for the supply lines (hot and cold water), the drains, and the vents. I take the opportunity then, to discuss preferred ways to cut through any required joists, rafters, or beams. It should go without saying, but I always remind them that any cut, no matter how minor, up in the roof truss bays, must be gone over with me first.
I cannot give you the link here, but somewhere you can get info if you search for it, on max hole sizing through structural members. That means joists, rafters, headers, beams, and even studs. You will want to make sure these guys with their Milwaukee hole hawgs know the rules, that you know the rules, that they know that you know the rules, and that you will be holding them accountable
http://www.codecheck.com/pg03_04building.html#fb8notching
Great info Gene!
We will definitely plan on doing that! Lucky for us, George (from UBuildit) will be there too. But I will definitely look at the link for the notches and bores specs that Bill posted and any other additional info I can find. I will try and do my homework better this time.
Thanks!
-Kacy
KC,
Thanks so much for coming back! It's nice to see the problems being fixed and work progressing again.
Keep up with the pictures - this is fascinating to me.
Thanks aimless! And you should definitely check out UBuildit. It really is a great resource for those brave enough to go it without a GC. But it's still no cake walk. Definitely know what you're getting into if you do decide to be an owner-builder!
I'm glad you enjoy the updates!
-Kacy!
KC ... glad to see you're back.
JohnT8 ... stop reading what's not there.
Jeff
JohnT8 ... stop reading what's not there.
No shid!
Marie - what I recommend, in your situation, is to get a grasp of each sub's scope of work and plan of attack for your project. Have your blueprints in front of you, and ask whatever questions you need to ask until you have a basic understanding of what they're doing and why. Most tradespeople like to talk about their work, and show off what they know (BT is a good example!), so don't be shy about asking. Spend as much time as you can poring over the prints, even if you don't fully understand them, remembering that everything on there means something, and is there for a reason. For example, ask your HVAC man where he's going to put the thermostat (and why there?), where he's going to put his return air, his registers, ducts (and again, why there?) As work progresses, study everything they've done carefully, not with a critical eye, but with a curious one. Let them see that you've taken an interest in their work. And always ask them what you need to tell any related trades to keep things flowing smoothly. You don't have to be their friend, but you want to create the impression that you're a team mate, or team captain, and everything that happens on your site is important to you. Also, respect them. Make sure there are clean bathroom facilities, trash receptacles, etc. Those are just some thought off the top of my head, where I used to keep my hair.
Staying close with the checklists will help, Kacy. Have your prep work done prior to each trade and make sure you've completed each thing on the checklist.
What you don't want is to let a trade show up without having done the stuff that needs to be done. The idea is to avoid making decisions on the site......having the decisions, research, knowledge and supplies ready for each trade saves mistakes and misunderstandings.
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
As those pictures show, You are becoming more 'pro' than some of the 'pros' who have posted on this forum! you are setting the goal, making the decisions, and getting your ship into port regardless of a slight headwind, doing whatever it takes to get there. Max number of posts?
I think there are a couple with two or three thousand posts in them, so there is rom in your barrel for a few more gallons yet.
The reason I said this thread has the potential of becoming one of BTs classics, is how thoroughly it is covering all the potential pitfalls of a project like this. That makes it a great learning read for hundreds of other people reading this who may never register, logon and post. You may never meet them, but your trials and tribulations, along with your transparancy ( meant in the best of ways) is sure to help others as much as it is helping you.You are also a very mature, well-balanced lady shown by the way you write and have grown as you are going through this process. Remodeling can be one of the harder challanges a married couple can undergo. I have een the stress it can place on a marriage. So I'm glad you are back in on this, partly so we can take time for a group hug for you, and partly so I can remind you to take some time aside from the remo process to do something special with hubby.
'breaktime' has a lot of meanings. A break puts everyting into perspective.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Wow Piffin, that was really nice. Thank you! A little encouragement was much needed today as we have spent the last 3 nights at the house working our butts off getting it cleaned up. Which means I'm exhausted and a little burnt out on the house at the moment!
And you're right, my husband and I could use a little more quality time together. Somehow carrying lumber to the dumpster just doesn't cut it! :)
Thanks again and I have more pictures to post but I'm so tired and my internet is a little slow tonight. I'll put them up tomorrow!
-Kacy
Ok, here's a ton of pictures. The first several just show the new interior framing of the existing house. You can see in the living room and family room that we will have a double sided fireplace. It's a prefab woodburning unit that we will put a gas log in.
The kitchen and dining room are the one part of the house that did not get changed much (no new floors in this part).
You can check out the floor plan to understand where everything is with respect to the other if the pictures are confusing.
Whoops, sorry I put the powder room picture in twice. (ok, I figured out how to delete it!)
The ceiling leveling pictures show how the framers leveled the ceilings. In the first picture you can see they sistered 2 x 4's to the original 2 x 6 ceiling joists.
In the second picture, they just ripped 2 x 4's at an angle to compensate for the angle in the ceiling joists. You can see how "off" our old ceilings were.
The new floors underneath picture shows the structure underneath our new floors. That stantion is located underneath the big 18" LVL to support it. Between the stantion post and the LVL is 4 - 2x6's nailed together.
The last picture shows our french double doors that were fixed. They were out of level before.
Hmmm, I think that's all for now! :)
-Kacy
Edited 4/28/2005 11:11 am ET by kcmarie122
Edited 4/28/2005 11:12 am ET by kcmarie122
Well, let's keep the momentum going now! Looking fine.hey - You've got greeen grass already!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Nice to see ya again Kacy. I have been mostly on the side observing and learning.
Now I have something that I hope will be useful.
Your blueprints show you where everything is suppose to go. But we all know that it doesn't always go the way. Because of that you need to be doing what is called "red lining" your prints. At least one copy of them anyway. Red lining is showing the changes that were made on site that actually took place.
For example: Some one in an earlier post suggested putting in blocking where ever you might want a towel rack or tp holder. You may also want to put in the blocking for hand rails in the bathroom, but don't want the hand rails installed. Even if you never have a need for them someone else in the future might. If these blocks are red lined in the blue prints, there location will be known without having to tear out half of a wall to put them in, just to find out that they are already there.
It is even more imperative that the subs that you will be getting from here on should do this.
There should be a set of prints in the package for each sub. Have the sub red line there set of prints.
When your project is completed store your red lined prints in a safe place like a bank safety box or a fire proof safe at home.
Would you please show us how the new framer got those two windows up stairs evened up with each other.
DaneI will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
Wow, that is a really good idea Dane! I was planning on taking pictures of all the rough plumbing, HVAC, and electrical (before insulation and drywall) but having a set of plans on top of it is a great idea. We will definitely get each sub a new set of plans so they can mark it up. Then, of course, we should go over it with them to make sure they captured everything.
I'll try and get pictures of those windows soon! But they got them pretty level. They ended up lowering the one that was too high.
Thanks again for the great idea!
-Kacy
everything looks nice and clean inside.
keep on top of the subs to keep it that way.
U provide the dumpster ... U compact the dumpster ...
They clean up after themselves and actually carry their debris out to the dumpster ....
and make sure they know ... all the way to the dumpster ... and ... up and in the dumpster!
each trade working around and coming after will greatly appreciate it.
don't pencil it in ... PEN it into each contract.
If U don't have them ... go to HD or Lowes ... get a roughneck garbage can for pretty much every room. Let them all know .. they are there for a reason ... and they are not to be left sitting full at the end of the day ... ever.
Not everyone realizes it ... but a clean jobsite will save U money and will make for a better end result. You're still gonna have to go thru and make weekend cleans ...
But insist everyone cleans up after themselves.
a compacted dumpster ... clean site ... good access and parking.
all make for happier subs.
maybe donuts on Fri morning ...
Jeff
<<<< If U don't have them ... go to HD or Lowes ... get a roughneck garbage can for pretty much every room. Let them all know .. they are there for a reason ... and they are not to be left sitting full at the end of the day ... ever.>>>
we've bought about 50 trash cans over the years...
the 40 gal. Roughneck is the best thing since sliced bread.. and buy the snap-on covers too.. it means the trash stays in the can all the way to the dump instead of leaving a trail the cops will pull you over forMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I've become a big fan of the smaller .. 20 gal, I think?
same shape ... same handles.
fits way better thru hallways and doorways.
Plus .... I've found we load it just about the same. The big ones U could never "top off" with heavy stuff or you'd kill yourself or need two guys to drag it to the dumpster.
The smaller ones ... U can fill alomst to the top ... still manage it ... and it's a more compact bundle to hold ... easier to lift/hold the same weight.
Give them a shot ...
Plus ... a stack fits better into the van on the last trip home.
Still have a coupla the big brothers around ... better for daily trash ... lunch and pop cans. Too many trash cans is never a problem.
Jeff
Here's the latest...
We've been extremely busy so I haven't had much chance to get on BT. We passed our rough Heating and Cooling inspection and our rough plumbing inspection. We finally got the chimney chase framed in so we could have the fireplace installed.
Yeah...progress!
We are currently working on the rough electrical. We already installed all the boxes and started pulling wire last weekend. We're doing ok so far but since we're pretty green when it comes to electrical it's a little slow going. We have a friend of the family who owns his own electrical contracting company who's coaching us through it. He has been coming out every few days to check our work.
Here are the latest pictures!
Edited 5/24/2005 1:53 pm ET by kcmarie122
Edited 5/24/2005 1:53 pm ET by kcmarie122
Just FYI, We are planning on doing cultured stone around the chimney (on the outside), probably a fieldstone look. I'll get some pictures of the fireplace installed. I think it's really going to be a great feature to the house!
The master shower has 2 shower heads (1 fixed, 1 adjustable) and three body sprays. We went all out for the shower since we didn't put a fancy whirlpool bathtub in the master bathroom.
The laundry chute is in the upstairs hallway and drops right into the laundry room. Our heating and cooling guy is going to make the liner for the chute itself. We're still trying to figure out what type of door to put on and how big. Our finish carpenter will trim it out!
We still have to finish up a few framing things that are "punch out" type items. Firestops around the tubs, hurricane clips on the trusses, etc. Other than that, we're moving along just fine!
Hope you all are doing well! -Kacy
Kacy,
Thanks for the updated pics. It's good to see that you are back on track and things are moving along!
Way to go girl!I've been missing you. I look forward to postings on your project like as though you were a kid sister.You didn't have to sweep, mop, anmd vacumn just for us though!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Whew...it's been awhile but we are just about done with the rough electrical on our house. And no, we're not quite that slow (we started the last week in May) but we took a week or two to also finish up some punch out items that our original framer never finished. The electrical was a lot of work, especially for first-timers, but it was very rewarding and I think we did a good job.
So we're thinking we should be ready for our rough electrical inspection by Wednesday! After we get that green approval sticker we'll already be set for our rough framing inspection. We have a really tough city so we know we wont pass that the first time. We're just hoping whatever the inspector finds, it's nothing major!
In the meantime, while we were working on the electrical stuff we finally got our concrete flatwork done! It was exciting to see more progress since we feel like we've been at a standstill for a few weeks while we've been working on the electrical!
After the inspections it's on to Insulation and Drywall...I can't wait. Our Siding Installer will be starting in a few weeks too! Hopefully we start seeing some faster progress now!
Here's some pics...
Hope you all are doing well!
-Kacy
Edited 6/20/2005 2:58 pm ET by kcmarie122
Looks good.
I'm a fan of concrete; solid, uniform, and easy to clean. Concrete sure beats muddy straw ;)
Good luck with the BI's.jt8
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty. -- Sir Winston Churchill
ThanksIt'll start getting fun again soon, wehn the rock goes up and it becomes rooms instead of sticksKeep smiling
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
We passed our rough electrical inspection today! Woo hoo!
Tomorrow is the rough framing inspection! It'd be nice to pass it the first time around but I'm thinking that's not going to happen! Too many oddities about our house considering it's a remodel and all.
Keep your fingers crossed for us! I'd definitely love to get going with the rest of the house.
As for now, the siding should be going up next week. If we pass the rough framing inspection this week we'll start insulating next week too! Then on to drywall which will really be fun to see go up!
Hope you are all doing well!
-Kacy
Great news, hope the framing insp. goes as well! Glad to hear you're out of the woods with that bad framing experience, and back on track. Sheetrock - yeah, that's when it finally starts looking like a house! Once this project is finished, I hope you post a list of what you'd do differently next time, for the benefit of all of us.
Thanks Huck!
And yes, I'm sure we'll have a loooong list of things we'd do differently! I should start keeping track!
Kacy
Good Luck with the inspection.
And take lots of pics now, so you don't have to remember where that wiring went... or where you put in that extra blocking, etc. :)
Once the drywall goes up, you can see the end of the tunnel.jt8
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty. -- Sir Winston Churchill
Thanks John! And yup, we intend to take lots of pictures and measurements of all the mechanicals once we finish up the cable and phone wiring...that's the last thing left to do before insulation and drywall!
But thanks for the suggestion! Sometimes those great tips are easy to forget when you're just so excited to move on to the next step!
-Kacy
Once the drywall goes up, you can see the end of the tunnel.
U can see it ... but ya gotta remember you're still only about halfway there.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Once the drywall goes up, you can see the end of the tunnel.
U can see it ... but ya gotta remember you're still only about halfway there.
Depends on the rooms. For a LR or BR, drywall is more than halfway. For a K or BA... probably halfway.
jt8
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty. -- Sir Winston Churchill
Well, we passed our Rough Framing Inspection and we got our insulation blown in yesterday! The siding guys have been hard at work the past few days and have several windows wrapped with aluminum and gotten a large portion of the gable front completed! It is so exciting to see so much progress!
Drywall will be delivered next Tuesday and will start to be hung soon thereafter! More pics to come!
And yes, I definitely see the light at the end of the tunnel, not because I think we're almost done (there's still a lot to be done) but just because for so long I felt like little or no progress was being made. So now I feel like we're back on track and full steam ahead and it feels great! We're hoping we'll be done no later than October-ish and that's still 3-4 months away so we know we still have our work cut our for us!
And I must admit that after seeing all that insulation go in we're just praying now that all our electrical circuits are right! We double checked everything but if we missed something, there's no getting to them now, at least not without a big mess! :)
Hope you all are doing well! :)
-Kacy
Congrats on passing the inspection.
Can we expect your presence in Ohio the 2nd wknd in August? You'll need a day off about that time.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Well, the front of the house is pretty much done as far as the siding goes. We finally got our columns installed too. They are permacast columns (and are fiberglass).
We still have to paint them. Any suggestions on how to get a good finish. We bought Sherwin Williams bonding primer and their exterior latex superpaint. Should we brush it or roll it?
The drywall was delivered this week but they wont start hanging it until Monday.
Another quick question...when our framers were up on our roof building the chimney chase, they got stuff all over the shingles (sawdust and dirt I think). When the cultured stone contractor quoted our job he said our shingles were stained. We had noticed that the dirt-like marks on the roof hadn't washed off with several rainstorms. Is there any way to clean it up? You can kinda see what I'm talking about in the porch picture.
Thanks for any help you could offer!
By the way, we're still not sure if we'll be making it to the Fest. I guess it depends on what's going on with the house. We just spent two weeks straight at the house (every day) even though we were supposed to be on vacation (it's GM's 2 week shutdown so we had both weeks off of work). Hopefully we'll be able to make it though. It sounds like it's going to be a lot of fun. I love the t-shirt design!
-Kacy!
I would sand, putty, and caulk where necessary, then brush the columns. Don't apply the paint too thick - mulitple coats applied thin is better than trying to get it in one thick coat. Clean the brush periodically, in mid-job if necessary, to keep the paint from gooping up on the brush as you work. I would use a high-quality brush, like a Purdy, about a 2 & 1/2" angled sash.As for the roof - what are your shingles made of? My first reaction is that it will become less noticeable over time. But if its a real eyesore, then maybe some remedial work is in order. Not sure I have the answers on that one, but would need to know what kind of shingles.By the way - looks good!-----
edited to add:r.e. the columns - I usually start at the top and work down, that way I"m not dripping on my freshly painted work. Plus, you can lean your ladder against the column if you need to, to do the top. And (I guess this is obvious, but...) if you're working out of a five-gallon bucket, be sure to get a smaller can or pail to carry up the ladder with you.And don't take any shortcuts on the caulking - be meticulous. Keep a damp rag or sponge handy to follow up the finger work as needed, and really work it into any cracks or crevices. Sealing the joints on exterior trim is real important for protection from the weather, and from infestation. Just make sure not to caulk any areas that would trap moisture IN rather than keep it OUT.
Edited 7/17/2005 3:40 pm ET by Huck
I love that gable end detailing!painting columns - they look square, so you could use a roller to apply and follow immediately, brushing out to smooth.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Kacy,Can you get some close up shots of the window trim and columns?Joe Carola
kc, the house is coming around. Way to stick it out and carry us with it. You are one tough woman, your husband is a lucky guy.
You just make sure you take a day off in August. Those of us here are hoping like mad to meet you. We'll expect nothing less than a visit.
thanks.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Thanks for the suggestions guys!
And Calvin, yes, we will definitely try to take a day off to come to the fest! We promise!
As for close-up pics, I only have 1 of the window trim right now. But it's hard to see the detail since everything is white. I'll take some more of the columns soon. I think we'll try and get them painted soon. If it just wasn't so darn hot!
Speaking of hot...we spent several hours the past couple days screwing down our subfloor. I don't think I've ever sweat so much in my life! Yuck! But we're hoping our efforts will ensure a non squeaky floor down the road!
Thanks for your comments and suggestions!
-Kacy
Edited 7/15/2005 11:37 pm ET by kcmarie122
Hi Kacy,
I haven't been here in a few months so you can't imagine how surprised I was to see you here. I am happy to see you are using all of the resources available. I would also like every one to know that it does look as good as the photos. I stopped by a few weeks ago, during rough electrical, and walked through. Very impressive for a first time homeowner remodel.
Keep up the good work
Robin Ballew
wow .. looks great.
curb appeal-Plus!
I love the big-fat trim ...
also like the double pitched roof over the farmers porch.
like any great addition/remodeling work ...
I bet it looks like it's always been there.
glad to see U didn't skimp on the exterior trim work ...
very nice scale/proportions ....
I just hate it when ya can't "find" the trim on a nice house ...
too little trim makes the new ones stand out like a sore thumb.
yours looks ... very solid ... healthy!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Do I have the correct two pictures?! If so, I can only say, "WOW!" That is an incredible improvement! And like someone else mentioned, it looks natural, not Frankenstein'ed on.
And it looks like a warm, comfortable home, not a cold McMansion. My hat is off to whomever designed it.
Just fantastic, KC. And once the drywall goes up, it will start to REALLY look nearly done inside too. jt8
The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers.-- Walter Percy Chrysler
Thanks everyone!
And thanks John for that cool picture thing! How do you do that? I should send you bigger images so they wont be so grainy!
As for who designed the house...well, it was a joint effort between my husband and I and our architect. We had the initial general idea but the architect put in on paper and really made it work!
And the architect just posted above, Robin! He worked with us for several months nailing the design down and we are loving how it's turning out!
Hey Robin, it's so funny that you are on here too! I heard about this forum from a friend who built his own house a few years ago! It really has been fun and a lot of help to boot! I'm glad you liked what you saw when you stopped by. You should stop by and see it now. The siding and the columns turned out really well. It's amazing how much it pulls it all together. Now if we just had green grass all over, it would look a lot better! :) Too bad landscaping is going to have to wait until next spring!
Thanks again for everyone for your encouraging comments! It helps to hear them after all the work we've been putting into it. It gives us a little boost that makes it that much easier to keep on going!!
-Kacy
And thanks John for that cool picture thing! How do you do that? I should send you bigger images so they wont be so grainy!
Program is called 'Flash'. Company is Macromedia. Most web-based animation is either Flash or Java.
They do look blurry in the animation, but I don't know how much of that is due to Flash and how much due to the source pics. Post the originals and I'll try it with them instead.
On Mike Smith's 'face lift' thread I did a couple similar and they didn't seem to get as blurry.
jt8
The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers.-- Walter Percy Chrysler
Edited 7/18/2005 5:38 pm ET by JohnT8
Now if we just had green grass all over, it would look a lot better
You don't have to mow dirt :)
But in the interests of visual tranquility; the new homestead in earl Fall:
View Image
We will want more pics when the drywall goes up. Are you sub'ing it out or doing it yourself?
jt8
The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers.-- Walter Percy Chrysler
Edited 7/18/2005 5:41 pm ET by JohnT8
Edited 7/18/2005 5:42 pm ET by JohnT8
Well, the drywall's hung. They started mudding today! Yeah, it finally feels like a house! What a difference drywall makes!
Cultured stone is going on the chimney soon too, possibly this week.
Siding will be finished this week! (they took a week off to work on another job but don't worry we haven't paid them a dime yet so we know they're coming back! We learned our lesson the first time. They completed way to much work already to walk off with no money!)
Happy Day to all of you!
(no laughing allowed at me or my goofy husband!) :)
-Kacy
"(no laughing allowed at me or my goofy husband!) :)"Ok, I will laugh at your husband and goofy you.Looks like it is coming along. Don't forget some pictures of the siding and chimmey when they are done.
Did you check out all the wire drops and outlets/switches to make sure they didn't cover any? Might be time to do a quick look see.
And you two are coming aug 12 or 13?
Good job Kacy!Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Wow, dh is already taking pics of you in the br!? ;)
Ain't drywall great! I find painting to be visually satisfying part of the project too, but drywall really has a nice "wow" effect.
Looks fantastic. What is your target finish date?
jt8
The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers.-- Walter Percy Chrysler
WOW! Everything is turning out very nicely. Congrats to you on a beautiful home.
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
Kc
It looks good. I'm sure that your getting excited as each day passes.
But, you call the husband goofy and we cant make fun of him! What kind of double standard is this?
Doug
Ok, ok, I guess what I should have said was don't laugh at me! You can laugh at my husband all you want! He is kinda goofy, but that's what I like about him!
Good point Cal about making sure they didn't cover any electrical boxes. We did find one mistake already though. We are going to have an outlet in the mantel on each side of the fireplace. Well, the two outlets are in the same circuit and then continue on to the family room outlets. We told them where to cut the hole to let the wire hang out since there's no box yet (it will go directly into the mantel). Well when we got home, there was drywall all around the fireplace and only 1 wire sticking out of each side. We were thinking "what they heck did they do with the other wire?"
We used a voltmeter to figure out which wire was missing and already got it fixed with only minor damage!
But I didn't even think about if they covered up a box entirely! We will go through our final electrical diagram to make sure they're all accounted for! Thanks Cal!
I think we will be finished up and ready to move in by the end of October, and I absolutely cannot wait! Hopefully we don't have any major slowdowns between now and then!
And you're right, now that the drywall is up I'm even more excited to see it painted! But I must not get ahead of myself! More pics to come as we make progress!
Have a great evening!
"But I didn't even think about if they covered up a box entirely!"
there's always one covered ...
tradition or something ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Can I just say...You guys are awesome!
So I went around and checked out out all the electrical boxes and sure enough, they covered one up! Just one though thank goodness!
Amazing how right you were! :) (said in only the nicest of ways!)
Hopefully it will be relatively easy to find since we have pictures of where it was!
Thanks again Cal for the excellent HO Builder advice! That was something most HO's probably wouldn't think to check!
The chimney stone went up yesterday so I'll get a few pictures of it tonight. I think it turned out pretty well.
Thanks again!
-Kacy!
Are they done with the mud? (drywall)jt8
The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers.-- Walter Percy Chrysler
Nope, they said not until next week sometime. We've only got one finisher on our job. But that's ok, the faster they get done, the faster we have to start priming, sigh!
-Kacy
Nope, they said not until next week sometime. We've only got one finisher on our job. But that's ok, the faster they get done, the faster we have to start priming, sigh!
If you've got the AC turned on in those areas, you might want to cover the vents when they're sanding the mud. That stuff is REALLY fine powder that gets in everywhere and is tough to get back up. I don't like it getting into ducts. Looks like the finished floor coverings aren't in yet, so at least you won't have to worry about vacuuming the mud-dust out of the cracks between the t&G floor (or out of the carpet/etc).
I have to really work to get mud to look right, so I don't tend to look forward to doing it, but I'm much better with a paintbrush (or roller)...so I tend to enjoy the painting more (therapeutic, I can think about other things when I'm doing it).
Exceptions being: exterior painting, painting that consists of trimming 200 things per room, painting that requires a contortionist. But your setup is PEFECT! Trimwork isn't in yet, no worry about slopping it on the floor... Shoot, you could probably get the sprayer out. Have it done in no time!jt8
The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers.-- Walter Percy Chrysler
We thought about spraying it but I'm worried about our skill level with a sprayer (i.e. none) and hence our ability to avoid drips on the walls. Do you think it would be worth it. Is it difficult to get the hang of? We'd probably end up backrolling it to clean it up anyway so then what's the point of spraying to begin with. We might as well just roll it on!
Any thoughts?
If we do ending up rolling it we're going to recruit our parents and a few of our friends to help us. Hopefully it will go quickly! I just am getting worn out from all the constant work of this project so the thought of priming all that drywall makes me tired just thinking about it! :) I'll do it...but I don't have to like doing it! :)
That's why we think we're going to hire out all the finish painting! I just don't think I have it in me! :)
-Kacy!
We thought about spraying it but I'm worried about our skill level with a sprayer (i.e. none) and hence our ability to avoid drips on the walls. Do you think it would be worth it. Is it difficult to get the hang of? We'd probably end up backrolling it to clean it up anyway so then what's the point of spraying to begin with. We might as well just roll it on!
If you're more comfortable with brush/roller, then by all means go with them. IMHO a sprayer isn't rocket-science, but takes a bit more skill than brush/roller. Sprayer tends to be messier (when I'm using it). Sprayer tends to put on a thinner coat (even if it does go on faster). I'm more likely to dig the sprayer out on exterior painting of porous surfaces where it would be tedious to use a roller/brush.
Although the sprayer does give me my 'power tool' fix :) And some part of my brain tells me its the 'lazy' way to paint. Just stand there with the hose in the can waving your arm.
But new drywall is very roller/brush friendly, and it doesn't really take all that long to do a room with standard 9" rollers. Very quick since the finished floor, fixtures, trimwork isn't in.
A couple months back there was an excellent thread on painting. I'll see if I can dig it up.
If we do ending up rolling it we're going to recruit our parents and a few of our friends to help us. Hopefully it will go quickly! I just am getting worn out from all the constant work of this project so the thought of priming all that drywall makes me tired just thinking about it! :) I'll do it...but I don't have to like doing it! :)
Just a matter of keeping your different hats at the ready. Put on your GC hat to make sure the big-picture is progressing on schedule. Put on your worker-bee hat when its time to do some work. So when the worker-bee hat is on, all you think about is the current project...nothing else exists. Make it as narrowly focused as you like... only the painting of these 3 rooms is on my mind... or maybe only the painting of this one room... or maybe even just the painting the this one wall. With worker-bee hat on, don't worry about GC things. I get "project lock" if I don't compartmentalize. :)
As bizarre as it may sound, the more worn out you are while working on the house, the more 'warm & fuzzy' you'll probably feel about it when looking back on it a couple years from now (just as long as you don't drive yourselves into the ground in the process). Many pictures are in order, just so you don't forget the 'experience'.
That's why we think we're going to hire out all the finish painting! I just don't think I have it in me! :)
Actually, that is a VERY hard lesson for most people to learn: when to call a sub in. Took me 5 years or more for that particular light bulb to go off. They (I) get so focused on doing it themselves that they run themselves into the ground. Whereas if they would have brought a sub in at a few key points, they would have saved themselves SO much grief, time, money, etc.
And even if it isn't cheaper, sometimes its just better for the health of the project (and participants) to sub something out. You and dh are going to be old pros by the end of this one. I just hope you don't get infected by the renovation bug ;)
jt8
The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers.-- Walter Percy Chrysler
Here's some close up pictures of the columns. We still have yet to paint them, hence the yellow-ish look.
Also, here's the pictures of the chimney. The cultured stone is finished but we're not sure how we're supposed to finish off the top. It's still got some exposed wood around the "cap." Should we have our siding guys wrap it with Aluminum? If so, should we pick a gray color or should we stick with white to match all the other trim? The siding guys says white but I don't think I agree.
I think it should be more of a stone/gray color so it's not so obvious that it's not stone. White seems like it would stick out like a sore thumb!
Any thoughts from the experts?
-Kacy
Thanks for your input on painting John! I think we just might stick with rolling it! But you're right in that painting is pretty much labor intensive, not brain intensive. It will be nice to work on something that doesn't require figuring it out first.
With most of the other work we've been doing, i.e. the electrical, I feel like half the time we spend talking about what we're supposed to do instead of just doing it. Mostly because half the time we don't know what we're doing! :) But still, it will be nice to get to the painting because we've done it before, plenty of times, so when we show up to work we can just get going and get it done!
Yeah, I try to put on the hats at the right time but it's definitely hard. Especially since I wear a lot of them. My husband's job is a lot more demanding than mine so I end up doing a lot of the management side of things, i.e. phone calls, budget watching, bank draws, making to-do lists...etc. Whereas my husband does more of the labor side of things. Granted I'm always there to help him but let's face it, he does the hardest parts of the physical work. But I'm ok with that! :) I'll just be glad when all this is over so I can put my "wife," "sister," "daughter," "friend" and hopefully someday "mom" hats back on! You know...and get on with life!
And at this point I'm thinking there's no way we could catch the renovation bug. I think this pretty much wore us out. Besides, we built this home for the long term and we're planning on staying there forever! Our only future renovation plans that I can foresee is addition of a 3 season porch off the back of the house. But we couldn't justify the cost at this point so we put it on the "5-10 years down the road" plan! But that's enough for me!
But thanks for the encouragement! We're definitely trying to balance our sanity with our budget! We know we're not invincible so we try to sub out the things that might put us over the edge! :) Glad to hear we're at least getting that part right (at least so far!).
Hope you have a great day!
-Kacy
Edited 7/29/2005 9:42 am ET by kcmarie122
Well, they finally finished the siding on our house and we got the whole place primed in only three 4-hour days! We were only able to do it because we got a lot of help from our parents! It's amazing how much even the primer makes a difference! It's really starting to feel like a house now! Now on to the colors! At this rate we should be completely done with painting (except the touch-ups) by early next week!
Things are really starting to pick up now! All our tile is being done this week and early next week, then the hardwood flooring will be installed next Wed-Fri.
Monday August 22 the trim carpenter starts! We're thinking we should be able to move-in in early October. I am so excited but also very tired. We still have a lot of work ahead of us. (we did end up deciding to do all the painting ourselves!)
Here's a few more of the latest pictures. Notice that we finally have some of our lights working in the house! Yeah, we did something right! We also had our final grading done so we need to get going on planting some grass! But all the rest of the landscaping will have to wait for next spring! I can't wait to get rid of that barren/flat look!
By the way, my husband and I are going to come down and join the Fish Fry at the Fest on Saturday so hopefully we will be able to meet a lot of you!
Hope you all are doing well!!!!
-Kacy
I was starting to think I was the only person left on the forum outside of Ohio.
Now SEE! Isn't painting satisfying? I can spend 3 weeks working on wiring and never get the same satisfying feeling I get after a day of painting.
At the risk of repeating myself: Not only do I like the way the addition blends in, but I REALLY like that the garage is tucked in behind. I hate houses where the garage dominates the front of the house. I assume you're going to have a porch or deck on the back? Otherwise you got a doozy of a first step coming out those french doors.
Not sure I'd want the clothes washer in the middle of the kitchen, but to each their own :)
I'm also going to be heading to Cal's on Sat. I'll keep an eye out for the crazy couple from Michigan who are doing their own remodel ;) This will be my first 'fest', so no doubt it will be interesting to match up the faces with the sign-ons.
jt8
"Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree." -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Thanks John!
And yes, you were right. The painting is very satisfying (though also a bit tiring). It's instant gratification/improvement! You're right, the wiring wasn't the same. Although I'd imagine it will be satisfying when we finally have everything hooked up but that is delayed gratification so it's not nearly as fun! You just pray it will work in the end!
Yes, we are planning on having something off the back of the house. We're thinking at this point that it will be a raised concrete slab. Kinda like our front porch. We're still all about low maintenance but it's still up for debate. We're waiting to do that next spring though so we have time to figure it out!
Great to hear you'll be at the Fest! We'll probably be easy to spot! I can't wait to meet everybody!
-Kacy
Well, it was so great meeting a lot of you at the Fest last weekend! I was a little nervous to attend since I wouldn't really "know" anybody but everyone turned out to be so kind and friendly! Mike and I felt quite welcome there and we are really happy we were able to make it, even if only for a little bit!
Sorry to have missed some of you since we only came for Saturday evening. I think several of you had already left by then!
_____________
Well, despite all the fun over the weekend we are still plugging along! Our tile guy is just about done and will be finished with all the grouting of the floors this Saturday. I posted a few pics of the work in progress. We are really happy with how it came out so far!
We also finished painting the whole house! Yeah! We still have to do the trim but that has still got to be easier than 3 coats (1 primer, 2 finish) on the whole house!
The hardwood started to get installed yesterday but I don't have the pics downloaded for that yet!
I've also started a countdown as to when we'll finally move in. The goal is October 2 so as of today we have 45 days to go! Woo hoo!
Next up...Finish Trim! More pics to come!
Have a great day!
Kacy
40 days?
KC it was good to me you and dh. I was pretty sleeeepy, so hopefully I didn't blither on too much :)
Did they finish up with the floors?
Don't know what you're going to do with all your free time when you finally get the house done. =]jt8
"Someone's sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." --Warren Buffett
Hey John,
It was really great to meet you too! You always have such nice things to say and I always so appreciate the encouragement!
And yes, the floors are pretty much done (they're wrapping it up today) and the trim work is progressing steadily! I'll post some pictures next!
-Kacy
hey KC ... sorry I missed U at the Fest.
caught ya across the room/tent at one point ... thot ... good ... now I know what she looks like ... I'll track her down later ...
then ... later came ... and U kids had already left.
my loss.
Hope U had a great time.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Hey Jeff,
Sorry we missed you too! Whenever I looked over you were engrossed in a conversation and I didn't want to interrupt!
We had to leave a bit earlier than we wanted since we had a 1.5 hour drive ahead of us. But we did have a great time!
Kacy
"engrossed in a conversation"
that's a nice way of saying I never shut up! U shoulda "interrupted" ... I was either telling lies or listening to them.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Cue the music---Tell me lies, tell me lies, tell me sweet litt' lies,Have no idea who sings this but I know one thing--She sings it better than me--Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
Fleetwood Mac
Glad you pick up the music--I can hear it perfectly--just couldn't come up with the name.Still trying to get back to Iowa?Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
YES
First coat went on the floors yesterday! It was still wet when I took these pictures!
We really like it!!
And due to the floors, we are on a mandatory break from working on the house until Monday!
It's a good day today!!
Hope it's the same for all of you!
-Kacy
(By the way, we're praying for everyone down South that was hit by Katrina. Any regular BT-ers affected?)
Can you tell us the product they used to finish? The commercial guys I know use moisture-curing waterborne urethanes, which look like skim milk when they pour it on to squeegee, but cure clear and fast so that they can get two coats on the same day. Tough as nails!
Hmmm, to be honest, I don't even know. They definitely weren't able to do two coats in one day though. And after the final coat (today) they said we shouldn't walk on it too much until Monday. But I will ask and let you know!
-Kacy!
Hey Kacy!
You might be interested (or not) to know that we are considering using Ubuildit to remodel our 2 bathrooms. You see, we already had the money borrowed for the land purchase (better rate on Home Equity than undeveloped land mortgage), and we're already paying for it, sooooo - we want to remodel our bathrooms and replumb the entire house. Not a major addition like what you have done, but pretty major to us. We've met with our local guy and he seems really nice and honest. Most of his business is new construction, so he is trying to manage our expectations on a remodel. I still have to call referrals - it's so hard to just call strangers and start talking.
Keep the pictures coming - it is really looking nice with the finishes going on.
Hey Aimless,
Well that sounds great! I think remodeling your bathrooms sounds like a good project. And maybe it will be better to start out with something smaller anyway!
That's cool that you just might end up using UBuildit after all! They have really been a huge help to us and we are very glad that we decided to use them. They wont be able to help you avoid every single glitch but at least they can help you avoid most of them and can help you work through the ones you weren't able to avoid.
Definitely call the referrals though. I know it can be hard to talk to someone you've never met but it's worth it. When I've had people call me (as a reference for our UBuildit franchise) I never mind chatting with them and answering their questions the best I can. And I do try to give them completely honest answers, the good with the bad (even though there's really not much bad). But I never mind talking to people who call so you shouldn't have to feel too uncomfortable!
Good luck with that and definitely let me know what you end up doing! And if do it we will want to see pictures and all!
And thanks for your nice comments! We are really happy with how our house is turning out too! 30 Days to go!
-Kacy
new construction guy looking to remodel baths?
uhhh ....
My advice ... find a local guy that remodels baths!
kitchens and baths aren't your easiest remodel ...
and new const isn't remodeling.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Would you suggest the yellow pages? 'Cause that is the only way I can find somebody - nobody is doing remodels around here when new construction is easy and has higher margins. I have absolutely nobody that I know to ask for referrals (my friends are all too poor/cheap), and I've learned from experience that calling the names given to you by a contractor is a waste of time. I literally had a guy give me a glowing reference for a general only to find out later (after buying a spec house built by that general) that the glowing referral had water streaming down a wall with every rain. I have had really awful luck with contractors and subs. I know it is something I'm doing wrong, so I'm trying to do something different this time. But part of my problem is that my job is soooo small that I can't interest a good contractor in it - they can make lots more money for less work up the hill on a Novell exec's home.
If I thought I could get a decent general to do the work then I would go for it - I know that would be a lot less expensive and with lower stress levels. But I can't. This is the next best thing in my book. He's not looking to do the work, he is just assisting with project management on it. I did call one of his remodel customers and got, you guessed it, a glowing reference.
jeff has agood point.
Is theree a local lumberyard where you can ask the manager/owner which of his contracator customers might be a good match for you, who has done this before?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"I have had really awful luck with contractors and subs. I know it is something I'm doing wrong, so I'm trying to do something different this time."
well ... can't blame ya there. But I find it hard there are no little remodeling guys out there that can't fit ya in. Yellow pages is as big(or bigger) a crap shoot as anything else. Lumber yards are a good place to check.
Did U pick your cabinets out yet? Cab Dealers have both inhouse and sub installers ... or they sell direct to contractors that do the kitchens and baths every day.
Another lead some might not think of ... other tradesmen. If U have a good electrician/plumber/HVAC guy/painter ... they all work around other contractors and GC's who's work and personality they get to see up close and in person. There are also all the local trade organizations available to call.
Have U put out the call to members on this forum?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Hi!Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
Just one more day and the holiday weekend is over and then---well I just won't feel bad about disturbing your down time---I'm thinking conference call around lunch Tues.Just cause ----To say "Hi"Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
View Image
Always trust your cape.
http://www.hay98.com/
Edited 9/5/2005 8:56 am ET by Gunner
O.K. you win---Man thats cheatin--Forgot to charge the phone so I was major low all day--It's on the charger now--and I am bringing my back up battery--Just in case--Nah--J/KGive ya a jingle anyway---P.S. I think I have Jeff up for GuzzleFest06. Just need a date---
and a cup holder--prefearly a wire one with swivel action--Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
Cool be there or be square.
Always trust your cape.
http://www.hay98.com/
Thanks for the suggestions, from both you and Paul. I will give them a try. I do have a good HVAC guy (at least I think he is - how do you really tell?). Perhaps I can ask him for a name when he comes to service the furnace this fall. The closest lumberyard that I like is in another county, but it is only 30 miles up the road, so they might still be able to give me a name I could use.
The real irony here is that my father in law is a superintendent for commercial construction - but he can't recommend a GC (everybody he knows is strictly commercial) or even subs because his subs are almost all new construction or commercial. I'm not really interested in contracting directly with subs anyway - as a one-shot (or close to it) customer, I'm not very interesting as a customer.
" Perhaps I can ask him for a name when he comes to service the furnace this fall."
don't wait ... call him early. It's an unwritten rule in the self employeed business of remodeling ... pass the good names around early and often. Just let them all know where U got their name. Might be a case of beer on the line of a free furnace tune-up waiting for some other tradesmen. I have a close knit group of subs that work with me ... and I pass their names along at the slightest hint there might be a good lead for them to pursue. More work is (usually) gooder work.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Couple guys at least.
Jason pharez is in Mobile, AL - he has a thread here someplace reporting how it goes
Brown Bag is just east of there a bit in the FL panhandle and works out of Mobile
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The things people do to get a weekend off. Probably had them use an extra slow drying finish. ;)
What is left on the 'to do' list? Finish the trim... finish the kitchen...
And in case you've forgotten, moving day is only about a month away. :)
jt8
"Someone's sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." --Warren Buffett
Unfortunately we didn't get the weekend off after all, just Friday night! Saturday I had to paint more trim (in the garage) and Sunday we raked our front yard and seeded it. What a grueling job that was! We have clay for soil and it was hard as a rock.
Here's a few more pics. We got all our countertops in. They still have to do the backsplashes and cut the holes for the sinks.
We also got our electrical panel all wired up and lo and behold...everything works!! This, in and of itself, is a small miracle since we've never done electrical on a house before! Now if we can just pass the final electrical inspection!?!
We also ended up having to build a special cabinet for our kitchen sink (Not sure if I mentioned this before). Well, it turned out pretty cool. The sink rim was so tall that there was no way we could mount it on top of our countertops. So we had our finish carpenter build us a special cabinet for the sink only that had a shorter countertop so the sink wouldn't be up to our armpits! We are going for a farmhouse feel to the whole house so I think it works!
By the way, with all the lights working in the house, we were finally able to see what the house looks like at night, all lit up! The porch has 2 sconces on either side of the front door but we also put 4 recessed cans in the porch ceiling too. It looks really cool having the porch all lit up and Wow...we love it!
23 Days left to go!
-Kacy
Edited 9/9/2005 10:21 am ET by kcmarie
I was admiring that sink base and saved the photo to my idea file. I did my first farmhouse style kitchen sink this summer and had to figure out how to make it work too. HO selected it. She has one like yopurs in a bathroom and it works pretty good for a baby bath tub for the newborn.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
But aren't those little low side shelves, the c'tops that the sink flanges sit upon, going to be hard to clean? I would be dropping coffee grounds and banana peels down there.
use a vacumn
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yup, definitely going to be hard to clean. I told our carpenter to make sure he left us enough room on each side to be able to clean down there. Well...I guess his idea of "enough room" and my idea of "enough room" are different.
I will just have to buy those special little "mops on a stick" to wipe down next to the sink. We will more than like have one of those drain boards to overlap at least one side of the countertop to sink opening.
The things you're willing to do to get what you want...
We're just hoping it's not such a pain that we can't stand it after a few years and end up replacing it. But then again that might be just about the time we want to trade in the laminate for granite and will probably get an undermount sink anyway.
-Kacy!
Looking good. Electricity is a wonderful thing isn't it?
Always trust your cape.
http://www.hay98.com/
Yes it is!
and Thanks Gunner!
-Kacy
Well?! Still on schedule? Moving day is only a couple weeks away. You're going to have to stop working on the house to start packing stuff... unless you've got it all in a Pod and can just have them back it up to the side of the house.
Got the trim in? Got the K finished?
jt8
"Striving for excellence motivates you; striving for perfection is demoralizing." --Harriet Braiker
Hey John,
Yup, luckily we're still on schedule. We passed our final plumbing already and the final HVAC inspection is today. We hope to have our final electrical inspection early next week. Then we just do final cleaning and touch up painting until we get our final general inspection passed.
The trim is all finished and the kitchen is pretty much done except our range and microwave hood isn't installed yet. We'll do that just before we move in. Also we're waiting on a few extra door/drawer replacements for the cabinets that had some defects. But it's really looking good (well at least we think so)! I'd have taken pictures but the house is such a disaster right now. I don't want to take pictures until we've had a chance to clean up a little!
We're not too worried about packing up. Most of our stuff is stored in our original detached garage which we still have. That stuff we just have to carry back in (as well as give it a good cleaning...ugh). The only stuff we'll actually have to pack is the stuff we have at Mike's parents house which isn't too much.
Thanks for thinking of us though! I haven't had much chance to post our progress because my company has started cracking down on personal internet usage. So I need to be more careful about how often I'm online!
Hope all is well with you! Have you picked out your next project yet?
-Kacy
Well, we're less than a week from moving in! Moving day is officially this coming Sunday and I seriously can't believe it. There were many many times I thought this day would never come but here it is...right around the corner!
This week we're having the rest of our final inspections. Plumbing is already passed, mechanical we passed today, electrical we failed today and will hopefully pass by Wednesday.
One of the biggest mistakes we made with the electrical that we have to change was that we put lights in all of our closets. Now this in and of itself would not be a problem except that in our smaller closets, the lights ended up directly over the shelves below. This is apparently a big "no-no" which our electrical inspector did not catch on the rough. We figured since he didn't catch it and passed us on our rough that they couldn't force us to change it for the final....WRONG!
Yup, we have to remove all the recessed cans in those closets and either remove them completely or change them to a thin (under cabinet) florescent fixture that would mount on the wall above the door opening to the closet. What a huge pain!!
This is going to involve ripping out the cans, patching the drywall and rerouting the wire from the ceiling to the wall. The only good news in all of this is that the inspector said he would give us a temporary approval so we can still continue with our final building inspection and move in on time. We just have to fix it within the next few months. In the meantime, we just have to remove the light bulbs from the offending closets and fix a few other odds and ends. I swear I wanted to strangle the guy. WTF, how come he just couldn't have caught it on the rough inspection....? It would have saved us a ton of time and a ton of money.
But I will admit that we were partly at fault. We kind of knew we might have a problem with those lights but we thought we were in the clear because he missed it the first time. Well, it was a tough lesson to learn and now we have to pay. Oh well, I'm too geeked about moving in to let it bother me for too long! I'll be bitching about it more in a few weeks when we actually have to do it!! :)
Aside from that everything has been going great! Here's a few of the latest pictures.
I've really missed being on here and catching up on what everybody's doing but my work is being strict about personal time on the internet now so I have to wait and do it at home. I have a lot less time at home than I do at work...sadly! So sorry I'm out of the loop.
Hope everyone is doing well!
-Kacy
Lookin' Good Kacy. Thanks for posting the almost done pictures.
Good luck on move in.
You might ask the inspector about a fluorescent bulb and shower (glass enclosed) trim on the can. He might let that pass.
Look'in good kid.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Woohoo! Nearly there!
There's always something last minute crop up. That closet light thing is perfect. Even if you had to gut the closets, you could always just close the closet doors and no one is going to know. As annoying as the closet thing is, its much better to have the problem there than having the 'last minute' item turn up in a more public area.
Looks like the house just needs furniture and people.
jt8
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." -- Mark Twain
Edited 10/5/2005 9:22 am ET by JohnT8
Looking good. I agree with Cal on the shower trim in the closet thing. The main concern is combustables coming in contact with bare bulbs.
Glad to see you have the home fires burnin<G> And like gunner and cal say, the closet thing is about combustibility (your safety)...interesting your electrician didn't mention it. In NYC, ya gotta have them auto switches, too!Nice meeting you at cal's, and nice of you to take us all through your building process. When all the dust has settled, maybe you could post your end result thoughts on U Build It and the process.Thanks again, for keeping us up with you thru this, and glad you've got the go for the big CO<G> "what's in a name?" d'oh!
All the excitement of sliding into home base near the end of the ninth inning!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
There used to be a bar up by Port Clinton called Third Base.
Last stop on the way home.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
WELLLL?!
You living out of cardboard boxes in the new digs?
Have you picked out your next project yet?
Yeah. Scratched my nose at the wrong time ;)
jt8
"Real difficulties can be overcome; it is only the imaginary ones that are unconquerable. " --Theodore N. Vail
Hey John,
Well, this is our second week in the house and we are in heaven!
We absolutely love it! And actually we've got most everything unpacked already. I will probably do a little rearranging/organizing over the winter but at least there are no boxes sitting around!
We still have a list of final things to do that we're going to start next week. It's a bit of a long list but we have all winter to do it! I figure a couple of things a week wont kill us. We just needed a break these past two weeks and unpacking was a lot of work in and of itself. Thank God we don't have that much "stuff!"
So what's the new project? Big/small?
-Kacy
Good to hear you got moved in. Hope you had a party after you moved in. Does it feel like you're living in a mansion?
Your "to do" list is going to be a 'walk in the park' compared to what you've gone through. Battle hardened veterans now. You and dh have to be feeling pretty proud of what you've accomplished. Any couple that can make it through a project like that can make it through anything.
So what's the new project? Big/small?
Big for me. Won't know exactly how bad its going to be until I close (early November) and get a chance to start tearing into it. 3BR, 1.5BA, 1500+ sq ft ranch with attached 2car garage. Of the things I know about already: all the drywall, subfloor, and insulation is coming out. Both Ba's and K need replacing, re-roofed, might need to replace the furnace/AC..some of the windows....Oh, and I suspect the main beam is gonna need replacing. But the basketball hoop on the driveway looks functional.
It is the 'plain Jane' of its neighborhood, which gives me a lot of leeway to make improvements. I ended up paying a bit more than I wanted to for it (it was at an estate auction, which is why I made the comment about scratching my nose at the wrong time). But it has a lot of potential, so it should be fun. jt8
"Real difficulties can be overcome; it is only the imaginary ones that are unconquerable. " --Theodore N. Vail
Oh, I get it now. Scratching your nose...! Well good luck with that! Sounds like quite a project. Not gonna be much left after you get through gutting it! How long do you think it will take? Are you going to do all the work yourself?
As for us, our house does feel a lot more spacious than being all cramped at the in-lawes! And I love knowing I have all sorts of storage space that I'm not even using yet! But I wouldn't say it feels like a mansion. It's a lot more cozy feeling which is exactly what we wanted. With 8' ceilings everywhere it doesn't have that cavernous feeling to it.
Yeah...the "to do" list won't be so bad. It's just that it's hard to get motivated now that we're in. But we'll get there!
So when are you officially starting your project?
How long do you think it will take?
Probably 2 or 3 times longer than I think. :) Won't really know until I get in and start tearing it up. I'm sure there will be 'surprises'.
Are you going to do all the work yourself?
Not all of it. For instance, I can hang and mud drywall, but that much drywall would take me forever to do, so I'll sub that out. The "what to sub" question for me tends to remain fluid throughout the renovation. If I start getting bogged down by something, then I probably need to bring the pro's in and get it done. It can be kind of an odd dance... you do more of the work yourself to possibly save $$, but meanwhile by doing so you're taking longer to finish...during which time the interest you're paying might have paid for bringing the pro in in the first place.
As for us, our house does feel a lot more spacious than being all cramped at the in-lawes!
There's more than one type of 'cramped' while living with the outlaws..oh, I mean in-laws. ;)
And I love knowing I have all sorts of storage space that I'm not even using yet!
I think that must be a female thing. Guys are more worried about the home theater and work spaces. You DID get the home theater all setup, right?!
So when are you officially starting your project?
Probably on Veterans Day. It isn't a holiday for my engineer, so I'm trying to get him out there to inspect the place and tell me how bad the structural situation is. Also probably try to get the dumpster in either the 10th or 11th. When the dumpster arrives, the REAL fun can start! That jump in airfares back in October which kept me from vacationing in London means I'll get to spend that week working on the house.
Whenever you get settled, be sure to give us updated pics. We have the before & after of the house, but we haven't seen the house turned into a home yet.
jt8
"Real difficulties can be overcome; it is only the imaginary ones that are unconquerable. " --Theodore N. Vail
Long time no post...for me that is! After moving in I think I must've gone into home renovation coma. I couldn't bring myself to think about any house stuff for awhile. And with all the parties we've thrown the past two months, there was little time left over for Breaktime! But I've lurked a bit the past two weeks or so, catching up here and there. But I didn't see anything about your latest renovation project.
So how's it going? You must be cruising along by now! Have you uncovered any surprises yet? I'm sure you've filled a lot of dumpsters! Definitely post some pictures or if you've already got a thread going, tell me where. I'd love to see your progress.
As for us, we are just getting back to normalcy after the holidays. We still have a few parties planned the next few months but we're trying to limit it to once a month. We figured it would be more fun (and personal) to have lots of little parties with our various groups of friends and family instead of one big party with everyone invited.
It's been a blast so far. I love how easy it is for us to entertain!
I must admit we have only gotten small things done here and there on the house. But we've been getting back into it lately. I still have miles of trim to caulk, man that's a slow process! But I did manage to repaint our master bathroom in 1 afternoon (I decided I didn't like the color after all!).
Well, here's a few pictures of our "home" that were requested! Definitely fill me in on your progress and on any other major going's on on BT that I might have missed.
-Kacy
fantastic... how about some of the outside now ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks Mike!
I don't have any recent outside pics at the moment. And to be honest it doesn't look much different than the earlier pics I posted. We're doing all of our landscaping this spring so it's still bare up front.
I should have at least taken some when we had our Christmas Lights up. They looked cool...!
And since it's been so warm lately with lots of rain, all the snow has melted and it's looking pretty muddy and dreary lately. Maybe if we get a nice clean fresh snow soon I can snap a few pics!
-Kacy
Good looking KC. I see your husband has settled in quite comforably.
Next Fest on Long Island. You in?A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Nice digs KC!!!!!!
does that guy on the couch evcer get up???
;)
Mr. T.
Maybe Christmas doesn't come from a store...
Maybe Christmas means a little bit more...
Then he got the strength of ten Grinches, plus two!!!
Attagirl!Ya know we feel some ownership in your project, so it's good to see that it is being well taken care of and properly used especially re TV and sofa;)Nice to be home finallyu ain't it?Re the post move burnout - I worked fourteen hour days x seven days a week when we built ours. After moving in, I hitthe wall and it was all I could do to get in an eight hour day on the job for the next year.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks Guys!
That guy on the couch doesn't ever get off when a Michigan Football game is on...notice what's on the TV!
And yeah, we're doing pretty well at taking advantage of the TV and Sofa as often as we can!!! Hence why it took me so long to post these last few pictures.
I can see how you would hit a wall there Piffin! That's a lot of work to put into a house! We're getting going again on ours though. It helps that we have been having these parties...! It's like we want to get just a few more things done before the next party comes along! It's good motivation!
Well, we hope we made you guys proud. We're no professionals like most of you, but we feel we held our own considering our experience level.
Now would we ever do it again?...well, maybe way way way down the road. After I've had time to forget how much work it was. But the good part was it went by pretty fast now that I look back and it really was totally worth it. We love it so much and are so proud of what we accomplished. Especially the fact that we're did it together (and are still together!!:)
Thanks again for all your help! I'll still be lurking around checking out what you guys are doing!
-Kacy
Kacy, good to see your update. Thought of you and dh a month or two ago when I heard GM was laying of a couple billion employees. Hope you made it through that OK.
The house looks even better with people living in it. I'd like to borrow your maid!
dh needs a bigger tv... but he looks content camped out on the sofa with remote in hand while watching the Wolverines lose.
After moving in I think I must've gone into home renovation coma. I couldn't bring myself to think about any house stuff for awhile.
Can't IMAGINE why! ;)
But I didn't see anything about your latest renovation project. So how's it going? You must be cruising along by now! Have you uncovered any surprises yet? I'm sure you've filled a lot of dumpsters! Definitely post some pictures or if you've already got a thread going, tell me where. I'd love to see your progress.
At the moment, I don't have a dedicated thread, just scattered bits & pieces in random threads as I've asked questions. Had a couple weeks in December where progress was pretty much halted. It is sitting right around the 2 month mark now. Got 'er down to the studs. Main beam has been replaced (oh what fun). Perimeter crawlspace insulation removed. Crawlspace walls Drylok'ed and patched (where necessary). On my second dumpster (40 yarder) and have been packing it in as tight as possible to try and avoid a 3rd dumpster.
Over the past week, I've been working on disinfecting the wall studs (house had mold). When that's done, I'll go ahead and pull the ceiling down (remove all the drywall and insulation and check for structural damage in the attic area). I've been hesitant to demo the ceiling since I won't be able to keep heat in the house once its gone. But its gotta go some time.
Once attic is down, its time to pull up the subfloor. I keep telling myself at some point I'm going to stop demo'ing and start putting stuff back. Just gotta keep my head down and keep trudging forward. The new subfloor has already been delivered, so its ready to go whenever I'm ready for it. I let all these crusty oldtimers hereabouts talk me into trying Advantech.
Not too many real surprises, but a few things that could have gone "either way" ended up going towards the way I didn't want them too. For example, I was hoping the bugman was correct in saying the termites were gone...but turned out they weren't. So there's a chunk of $$. And then furnace/AC might have turned out to be OK... but wasn't. Wasn't a surprise, but would have been nice if they didn't need changing. My budgets are always modest, so I don't like to see big ticket items rolling in this early. I design a bit of surplus into my renovation guesstimate, but beyond that it just works like a collapsing bag. As more things crop up (like the furnace and bug treatment), the finished product gets less and less fancy. For instace, the utility room is now getting vinyl instead of tile. Lets hope there aren't any suprises in the attic, or the utility room might be down to Advantech for finished floor ;)
I'll have to get your attention when I start putting things back together. You can throw ideas at me for turning this bland little ranch into something with more curb appeal.
It's been a blast so far. I love how easy it is for us to entertain!
So all that work was worth it!
I must admit we have only gotten small things done here and there on the house. But we've been getting back into it lately. I still have miles of trim to caulk, man that's a slow process! But I did manage to repaint our master bathroom in 1 afternoon (I decided I didn't like the color after all!).
You've got all winter to work at it. Still planning a deck next summer? Does that mean there is a DOOZY of a first step out of those DR french doors?
Definitely fill me in on your progress and on any other major going's on on BT that I might have missed.
Don't think you've missed a whole lot, but I think they've settled on a location for the 2006 fest. Other than that, its just business as usual.jt8
"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer
Hey John,
Wow all your talk about demo work sure brings back memories. Are you doing all that by yourself or do you have friends/family to help you out. I just remember how awful it was ripping out drywall and insulation. As if that wasn't bad enough, then we had to cart it all out to the dumpster. I still remember the drywall dust and grit that coated my hair every night. It was disgusting. I could barely get a brush through it at times.
Don't worry, the putting in (instead of taking out) will come soon enough and then you'll be wishing for the days when you didn't have to be careful anymore. And I'd love to offer any input you'd like on finish ideas. I'm no pro but I do enjoy it! I'll be looking for some input on landscaping come spring.
Well, I hope you don't encounter too many more surprises or things going the "wrong way." You definitely don't want to skimp too much on the final product.
As for the double sinks, that picture was actually our upstairs bath and will hopefully someday be more functional for a couple of kids. Our master bath only has 1 sink and isn't quite done yet so I didn't include a picture. (We've still yet to get the mirrors and finish lighting installed before it's really done. I'm still trying to find just the right ones. ) We (I) decided that I didn't want to have to clean two sinks every time when we barely ever even use it at the same time. We've got a separate counter (a vanity only) that is for me to sit at and do the make-up and hair thing. So we don't fight over the sink ever. I don't think two sinks are essential but that really depends on the person/couple. I've also met people who feel like two sinks are really important in the Master Bath.
I don't think I was too convincing was I! :)
Have a great weekend!
(and by the way, my dh and I have been safe so far at GM. However we've heard there are some salaried cuts coming along soon. We're crossing our fingers and working our butts off so hopefully we'll be safe! But thanks for thinking of us! You'll definitely hear if we get laid off since there will be a nice house in Troy, Michigan up for sale! :)
(and by the way, my dh and I have been safe so far at GM. However we've heard there are some salaried cuts coming along soon. We're crossing our fingers and working our butts off so hopefully we'll be safe! But thanks for thinking of us! You'll definitely hear if we get laid off since there will be a nice house in Troy, Michigan up for sale! :)
What if I put the 'positive vibes' towards YOU getting laid off and dh getting a nice promotion? :)jt8
"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer
Now that would be awesome! :) Good thinking!
-Kacy!
Wow all your talk about demo work sure brings back memories. Are you doing all that by yourself or do you have friends/family to help you out.
Family and friends have been in and out at various points. My sister was an enthusiastic helper until she ran into poison ivy while cleaning up some brush outside (ok, well MOST of the brush turned out to be poison ivy). Mom was nearly an every day visitor...until I started uncovering termite damage, and I think it kinda freaked her out..and I only see her on-site once or twice a month for a while there. She is starting to come back now. BIL and friends have popped in to help with specific projects... such as the main beam replacement. Since I know I'm really only going to get "X" number of hours outta the friends, I try to schedule them at times when I'm not able to do something by myself.
I just remember how awful it was ripping out drywall and insulation. As if that wasn't bad enough, then we had to cart it all out to the dumpster. I still remember the drywall dust and grit that coated my hair every night. It was disgusting. I could barely get a brush through it at times.
I was all geared up when I was pulling the wall drywall. The always attractive coveralls, hat, safety glasses, gloves, and respirator. And I still showered when I got home. :) I don't mind pulling drywall, but pulling rusty old nails gets boring. I always seem to find houses that nail fanatics built. BIL and I were estimating 30-75 nails per wall stud (assuming drywall on two sides).
And I've become convinced that the house is infested with Rusty Nail Fairies. After everyone has gone home for the day, the Rusty Nail Fairies come out and pound the rusty nails back in. :)
Well, I hope you don't encounter too many more surprises or things going the "wrong way." You definitely don't want to skimp too much on the final product.
I've got a REALLY bad habit of investing too much time and $$ into things no one is going to see. Like wiring, drains, floor structure, insulation, etc. Then by the time I'm at the finishing point, I'm either out of $$ or time.
We've got a separate counter (a vanity only) that is for me to sit at and do the make-up and hair thing.
In the MBA or MBR? Hmm... that is food for thought. So would you guess that a large portion of a woman's 'sink time' doesn't actually require a sink? Just mirror, counter, lights?
Here is one of the threads where I'd pushed out a couple pics. This one doesn't even have the charm of your house's "before". Very bland. Hope there is enough budget to deal with the bland.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=67974.55
Have a great weekend!
You too.
jt8
"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer
Edited 1/26/2006 10:26 am by JohnT8
And I've become convinced that the house is infested with Rusty Nail Fairies. After everyone has gone home for the day, the Rusty Nail Fairies come out and pound the rusty nails back in. :)
We used to joke that the guy who (self-built) our house had shares in Stelco (a local steel mill) for all the nails he used, everywhere. Especially trim- he nailed the bejeeeezus out of every piece of trim in that house! It's been a pain, but in at least one case the surplus of big nails was a good thing. Some dumb@ss previous owner moved the wall dividing the old galley kitchen from the dining room- trouble was, the joists were spliced above the old location. Only two of the ten joists were still supported by the wall in its new location- the other eight were held up by hope, blocking (to the joists that were supported)- and nails. Of course it made my job of putting up a header and taking down the old wall easier- no temporary supports needed.
Salvaged all the trim out of a house a couple years ago. Nail fanatics had been there as well.
IIRC, the attached pic was a 12" piece of baseboard. 13 nails.
jt8
"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer
I know what you mean about those nails! I was the official nail puller on our project. What a pain! Oh my aching wrists! I especially loved the ones at "just such an angle" that it was damn near impossible to get the sucker out.
We had a lot of nails in the floor too since we pulled out some old hardwood. Every time I thought I'd gotten every last nail out, I would spot 2 or 3 more, then another 2 or 3, then another, until I was finally sure I had them all....Then I'd trip on one last nail while walking out of the room.
As for the vanity, yup it's in the master bath. I love it. I have a little stool and it's works out great. We put in two duplex outlets next to the mirror there for all my electric Hair care gadgets which is perfect. A girl sometimes needs more than just two outlets! And yeah, I would think the majority of mirror time is not necessarily sink time.
Cool pics too! Definitely keep them coming so we can see your progress! And I don't think it's a bad looking house at all! I love red brick houses with white and black accents! With some new thicker columns and maybe something to help the look of the porch coverings, a fresh coat of paint and a little landscaping, it should have lots of curb appeal. I wouldn't worry too much. You picked a good one!
And it's good that you've got help when you really need it too! Keep it up!
-Kacy
oh, forgot to ask...
How do you like that double sink deal in the BA?
Wouldn't be real easy to work it into my new MBA, but if its the greatest thing since sliced bread, maybe I can wrestle the plan around and get a double sink in there.
jt8
"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly, is to fill the world with fools." -- Herbert Spencer
we've been here since about 96 and still have stuff in boxes!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I still have moving boxes in my parents attic!
thinking we might not exactly "need" that stuff?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I still have moving boxes in my parents attic!
thinking we might not exactly "need" that stuff?
What'ya think they've been using for their garage sales? You don't think they've actually been selling their own stuff, do ya? Go check those boxes in the attic...they're all empty ;)
jt8
"Real difficulties can be overcome; it is only the imaginary ones that are unconquerable. " --Theodore N. Vail
"they're all empty ;)"
Good! They'll weight less when we carry them all to the next house ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
now that you are done and in, is it time for an overall review of the Ubuildit company from you and a big hearty congratulations from us and from Christyubuild?You are now aofficially a different class of citizen. Raise the flag!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks Piffin!
Yeah, we're really happy to be done and definitely feel a huge sense of accomplishment. I still can't believe that we actually did it!! I have such respect for those of you that deal with this stuff all the time! I don't think I could go through all that stress all the time for someone else's house!
And I definitely want to do a review of UBuildit. It's just been a little crazy around our house lately trying to get settled and ready for the holidays!
I'll try and do it soon though!
-Kacy
Hello Kacy, and Mike (looking over your shoulder)Come on Mike step up to the keyboard and let us know what you have to say--Pleasure spending some time with you, wish it could have been more--oh well save some for next year--You tell the folks at work how much I am going to miss the Safari/Astro, Had four of them now and two currently--Funny they are the same year , chassis, just different colors--How many people can you say have exactly one spare part of everything? Keeping up with the thread now ----Mike" I reject your reality and substitute my own"
Adam Savage---Mythbusters
Hey Mike,
It was really great meeting you too! I will pass along your thoughts about the Safari/Astro to the people here. I don't know if it will help but at least they should know the things/features you liked about them so maybe they can include them on future products!
I'll pass along the link to the thread to Mike so he can read up! He's a bit more busy at work than I am at the moment. It doesn't help that all I can think about is house stuff, even when I'm at work! I don't think my brain has relaxed since we started this thing!
Hope you're doing well!
-Kacy
"As bizarre as it may sound, the more worn out you are while working on the house, the more 'warm & fuzzy' you'll probably feel about it when looking back on it a couple years from now (just as long as you don't drive yourselves into the ground in the process). Many pictures are in order, just so you don't forget the 'experience"funny thing that - I worked fourteen hour days for seven months on the first stage of building our house. other than one or two days, i have no memory of the whole thing anymore. If it weren't for pictures...you'd have to convince me I was the one who did it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm glaad you got "down to the river to play, yes you know, that's the only way..."Putting human faces on all thesescreen names makes a difference, and a lot of us have mentally adopted your project, like you were a kid sister.Sorry I couldn't be there to meet you two, and if you want a face for me, it'll have to be my inhuman one in my profile, LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yes Piffin! We were really happy to be able to make it to the Fest. We really did have a great time meeting everyone and putting faces to the names. I was sorry you weren't there though because you are one of the ones who has helped us out a lot! It would have been great to meet you!
-Kacy
Here's the latest pictures...Wood floors just about done, tile 98% done, trim work getting started, doors being hung, closet organizers being built, cabinets being installed, appliances being ordered and some of the plumbing fixtures installed starting tomorrow!
Think we're a little busy?
But the end is just around the corner! 39 Days to go!
-Kacy
Wow, Kacy - it's really coming together nicely. Thanks for posting the latest.
Only an excited homeowner would post a picture of paint drying ;)
Thanks Aimless! And yes, I figured the paint drying picture wouldn't be too exciting! What is sad is that that picture only shows about 1/8 of all the trim we painted. I think I mentioned a few posts ago that painting trim would be a lot easier than painting the walls. Well, I quickly found out that I was very very wrong!
Painting the trim took forever and it was so frustrating. I couldn't believe how difficult it was to get the finish smooth. I won't even go into all the different methods we tried to get the look we wanted. What a job! We were still up super late last night even, trying to get those stair parts painted. Ugh...! Let's just say if I never see another can of paint or a paint brush again, it will be too soon! And what's sad is that we are still not even done. We still have to do two coats on all the doors and the final coat on the trim and closet shelving once it's up. :(
Thanks for the note though! Did you ever decide what you were going to do with your project? I'd love to hear the details and if you decided to get a GC?
-Kacy
Kacy,
Thanks for remembering. Actually we won't be building any time in the foreseeable future - the property we were interested in failed the perc test. Luckily we only lost the money for the perc and soil report (still amounting to thousands!) and hadn't purchased the land yet.
Good luck with finishing your painting - at least the end is in sight!
Hey Aimless,
Sorry to hear the property didn't work out for you! But at least you were able to determine it wouldn't work out before you bought it! Too bad you still lost out some money in the process though. :(
Maybe something else will become available though if you are still interested in building (at least eventually)! In our opinion it really has been a lot of work but definitely worth it to get the house we wanted! Now we never (knock on wood) have to move (or build) again, at least not in the foreseeable future!
Good luck with that! I hope you're eventually able to find and do what you want!
-Kacy
Well, I'm excited. How did you get those stair parts to stand up alone like that? Your chance to teach me something.When I pre-paint trim, I lay it on a plank or on an old ladder to support it. Laid out over sawhorses like shown lets it bounce too much.you have probably mentioned before, but what species wood are you using for the floor? Those are some decent widths in those floor planks.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, there was definitely some bouncing involved with that trim! We just had to hold it steady while we were painting and only one person could be painting on it at a time or it was impossible to keep it steady. Especially with 16-ft-ers! Those things were so long we had to hand them through the window to get them into the basement for drying!
As for our wood flooring, it's just your regular old red oak. But we really did like it the best. We looked at all the other species and decided that the red oak would give us the look we wanted. The planks are 4" wide and we love how they look. The floor is still unfinished and we think we are going to have it stained but using a pretty light colored stain.
-Kacy!
edit: oh yeah...the stair balusters are plain square ones and pretty beefy so we didn't have too much trouble balancing them, but every now and then...one of them would take a little bit of finesse...
Edited 8/25/2005 9:55 am ET by kcmarie
Cal, I use plenty from Johnson, but don't do very many bvifolds any more. Are the Johnson bifold hardware kits easy to use?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
paul, I would say so, yes. The only problem you'll run into is that the holes on a kit are bored out in the end of the door right where you want to run the screw for the bracket. A whittled shim with glue works great for a fill. After that, all they require is a two inch shorter than the opening -door. Whats nice is that the usual piece of crap bifold hdwr is now upgraded to the good hdwr. Carpet can be changed and no call backs other than rehanging (no trimming) because the carpet guy don't know jack about it. They never go out of adjustment nor fall off the bracket. Not that it makes a difference, but it's the only way I'll hang a bifold.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Thanks - that's a keeper
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for the advice Calvin! Unfortunately we already had the hardware for the doors and they had already started hanging them as of Tuesday. They still have 1 more to hang today but at this point it's a little late to ask them to wait for new hardware. I guess we'll be ok with what we got at this point. But it's good information to have for the future if we ever have problems or don't like how the stuff we got is working!
I'll let Mike know you said hey! He hasn't read up on the thread lately but I'll send him the link so he can catch up!
Hope you've recovered since the Fest! :)
-Kacy
KC, if you want a quality, won't fall off the brackets bifold hardware, order or quick by the johnson 1700 hardware. You might have to trim down the doors a bit from the opening height you probably have, and you can hide the track up behind a split head jamb so don't jamb it and trim b/4 you get the hardware if you so choose. The 1700 allows the door to "hang" from the track, guided by a side jamb mounted pivot. Truly the most trouble free bifolds around.
Hey to Mike.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
And yes, I figured the paint drying picture wouldn't be too exciting!
But its all part of the process, and it lets people see how you set things up for mass production. Trim slows me down..whether painting or installing it. But its SO much easier to paint before it goes up on the wall (even if you have to touch up some). And painting is a whole lot easier (imo) than staining it. Plus, I'm an expert at knocking freshly painted trim off the sawhorses. And it always falls fresh-paint-side down :)
Are the family room and LR fireplaces back-to-back, or a double sided fireplace (or am I completely off)? I like whatever wood you've got in the LR/Family room pics. Looks good both with natural light and artificial. Is it prefinished? I can't tell from the pics.
Do you have a clearer shot of the laundry room tile? The pebble flooring in the MBA looks good (and is probably nice to walk on), but my anti-cleaning gene would wonder how hard it's going to be to clean.
38.5 days to go.jt8
"Someone's sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." --Warren Buffett
"That was something most HO's probably wouldn't think to check!"
It's something even builders and remodelers don't always check. What happens is the Electrician shows up to do the trim out after everythings been painted and then the truth comes to light. And then the drywaller comes back to patch the hole, and you get to paint out the whole wall, again. I knew you pictured the whole place and you probably could recognize something missing. This way, you might not have to re-open that paint can.........something I really hate to do.
So, now you owe me a favor. A trip down here with something you baked (if you like to bake and have access to an oven and it isn't hot out) would wash the slate clean. See you in a couple weeks.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Well, if we are able to make it for only a short time (like one evening), what would be the best time so that we could meet everyone? Maybe we could drive down for the fish fry on Saturday night?
I can maybe convince my husband that it would be fun to go. I must admit, he thinks It's a bit strange to be wanting to drive down to meet people I've only met on the internet! But he (and I) have to admit that this forum is a wonderful resource and it's only as good as the people who are on it! So it really would be great to meet everyone!
And yeah, I could probably manage to whip up something yummy to bring! I'm sure my mother-in-law wouldn't mind me taking over the kitchen for a few hours!
-Kacy
Saturday is the most in attendance day, and we've got a mural being created out of cedar shingles. Along with that, Dino EZSmart (ripguide etc) is doing a demo/challenge and showing DMix. I guess I would advise that, come early and spend the day. The fish should be biting.
Like john suggested, cover the vents and in addition, cover/filter the air returns in those areas so it doesn't suck up the dirty air. Come time for sanding and clean up, best shut down the unit,if you can stand it.
It'll be good to meet you two. Tell him not to fear, we're pretty nice once you get to meet us. Outside of John Svenson, you'll be the guests of honor.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Aren't electrical boxes supposed to be flush with the finished wall? If that is the case, shouldn't the drywall guys notice that there is a big hump in the wall (since the box would be sticking out a 1/2 inch from the framing) right about where an outlet or light switch would be? I would think it would make it tough to set the nails or get a drywall screw to grab in the vicinity of the box.
Anyway, I'm glad I read this. I'll make sure we mark out all box locations on the floor (finished flooring won't be put in until after the drywall anyway) so that it will be easy to notice if any get covered up.
Johnny. File this away for reference. If you've never watched a hanging crew then you probably can't appreciate the speed with which they work. That they miss one is a surprise in itself. Usually the culprit is the loose wire for undercab lites or surface mounted boxes. If you mark it out, code it for switch and outlet.
And yes, there should be a hump and often is. But the boxes only protrude a good 3/8's, easy to miss. You'll be able to find the area, but spot on for a cutout, not likely. That's why it's good to know b/4 coverup. On a whole house, well maybe not the effort. But an addition/room full gut-nice to know.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
lol, you nailed that one!
jt8
The reason so many people never get anywhere in life is because when opportunity knocks, they are out in the backyard looking for four-leaf clovers.-- Walter Percy Chrysler
That's a given. Easy to know you speak from experince.on this last job of mine, we lost three.one was a pipe for toilet supply. The nipple was cut around in the SR, but then mudded over.one was a whole box in a kitchen wall not cut aroundThe third - the electricians had never put it in, but, LOL, their first reply when I mentioned it, was, "If it's on the plans, it's in the wall, the damm sheetrockers just covered it over!"
but they had egg on their faces when they figured out that it wasn't there at all. Ooops with a capital O
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Looking at the date, it's probably too late now, but your floor is too clean to let the DW mudders get in there.no joke, a layer of dust makes it easier to clean up the gobs they leave behind.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You guys need to go to bed earlier. It's like you have nothing to do during the day.
Who Dares Wins!
Marie, A lot of your trouble did have to do with using a poor sub. that is certainly true.
But your choice of that sub had a bit to do with the amt of experience you have in building. You have many more subs to choose in going forward. so there is ample opportunity to repeat the problems you have had so far.
This is not to beat you up but to make sure you keep your eyes open. "But a person should not have to babysit their sub 24/7. " See, the less experience you have, the more involved you need to be, and I will disagree with this statement you made. In an ideal world, all you would have to do is provide the plans, hire the subs, pay them when presented with a bill, and then enjoy the home created as a result. But in this real word, managing the job I am currently doing - very similar to yours except that it is slightly larger - takes approximately suix hours a day of my time. I only get to wear my tool bekt and do any real work a couple of hours a day. There are decisions to make, traffic control, telephone work to co-ordinate 9 which spills over to early AS 5 AM and as late as 9 PM, materials orders to compile, changes to implement, documentation of progress, billing, and problems to solve. project management is a life-consuming job. It doesn't just happen. for every hour I am away from the job, I have added an hour or more ( if mistakes were made in my absence) of catch-up when I am back - and I have some of the best subs around doing my work, people who are familiar with my methods.All that to say this - even tho you are now ona more firm footing with U-Build and relying more on thm for sub recommendations, you will still need to be there and on top of things. For instance, one of the most common problems you will have with plumbers and HVAC guys is that they love sawsalls. They can be extremely destructive to a structrue by cutting and notcing in all the wrong places. You need to communicate ahead of time what you will and won't tolerate with them on that sort of thing, and do it tactfully as possible.As I remember and interpret your saga - one that has the possibility of being named for the BT hall of fame - you have been running around BEHIND all the errors, finding ways to fix them right from the start. There was the foundation error, that was first based on the poor archy drawing missing a critical dimension callout. The whole trick in this business is to ANTICIPATE - looking ahead all the time to know what can go wrong and do what is necessary to make sure that it does not go wrong. I religiously obey Murphy's Law. This is not that different from what you do as an engineer for auto saftey. You have to see that if a mirror is positioned in a certain way, in a crash, it can put out someone's eye, so you tell the designers that it has to be positioned differently. There are compromises too. The door post can save a life in a rollover, but positioned poorly, it can destroy visibility and increase the odds of a crash. So too in the building business, there are descisions and compromises between competing trades and portions of the house. Too anticipate problems ahead of time, know how to react to them, and keep things moving ahead, demand full time attention and experience. You can get by with giving it less, but you will get less out of it, just like with a marriage or raising kids. Or in the taching profession, the guy up in front of the class has to keep studying to stay ahead of the class, and to know how to present the material so they can benefit from it. He has to work harder than the students if he is a good teacher. Since you and Hubby know lerss than some of your subs will, you need to spend more time studying and communicating. But be carefull not to overdo it. If you have a competent sub and overcompensater for the past framers errors by oversupervising the new one, he will resent it.Put a nickle in - get a nickles worth of candy out again.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
But your choice of that sub had a bit to do with the amt of experience you have in building.
Hmmm, UBuildit told us this was a good sub. But yes, you're right. We don't have enough experience to pick good subs on our own.
In an ideal world, all you would have to do is provide the plans, hire the subs, pay them when presented with a bill, and then enjoy the home created as a result.
Yeah, it is too bad it doesn't work that way. And yes, we've had some firsthand experience with that not happening.
All that to say this - even tho you are now ona more firm footing with U-Build and relying more on thm for sub recommendations, you will still need to be there and on top of things.
We will do our best, but we both work full time so we are limited that way. We take vacation days when we feel we should be there but those will run out eventually. I guess we took on the project knowing we would not get to supervise as much as we would like but that's life. We will deal with the ramifications of not hiring a GC. We know things will still go wrong from here on out because we wont be on site 24/7. But we accept that because we have to keep our jobs.
The whole trick in this business is to ANTICIPATE - looking ahead all the time to know what can go wrong and do what is necessary to make sure that it does not go wrong.
Very good point, one that we have already realized that we are guilty of not being good at. We have not anticipated as much as we should have. We will try and do better as we continue on.
Thanks for the kindness of your comments. I have taken them to heart and will do my best to apply what you've pointed out.
-Kacy
Edited 4/23/2005 9:55 am ET by kcmarie122
Kacy,What are you doing about the windows?They have to be even.Are these Moron's/Hacks/Shoemakers/Butchers going to fix this?This is an absolute joke and the trim is a joke also. It all looks like they put it on with blindfolds. I assume your covering it with coil because you said something about j-channel. Even if they cover it with coil you will see every single bump on every joint because nothing is flush.I'm sorry to say this but this is Horrible what has been done. These Idiots have no business Framing and doing additions and tying into existing homes. They can't even get the new framing and trim right let alone try to match your existing house.You might as well hang one window upside down or sideways because it will look just as bad as your windows now.These Idiots can't even put a beam in right without cutting the joist to short.You know all this has to be fixed and none of it can be covered up. So who's going to fix all this?I forgot now how UBIULDIT qualifies their subs or do they?You had a problem getting them back which is one thing but the job they did was done by Armatures not Professionals.Joe Carola
Well don't hold back there Joe!
Yes, the carpenters were definitely hacks and yes, we agree everything needs to be fixed. Don't worry! We will do our best!
We are planning on doing vinyl siding, hence the J-mouldings. I'm not sure what you mean by coil. And actually they did a pretty good job of making that wall flush. We just have to add some additional lineal so there are enough places to nail the siding to. Plus the new framer will add additional material around all the trim to make it more secure and will give the siding contractor somewhere to nail his j-mouldings to.
We have definitely fired the framers which means now we have to pay someone else to fix the original framer's mistakes. Yes, that sucks.
We kept trying to tell the original framers about different problems we would find with their work. But the next day, instead of fixing what we complained about, they would work on something else and botch that up too. We just got sick of it. They were doing much more harm than good at that point which is the biggest reason why we fired them (although there are other reasons too).
But we will hopefully be getting back on track soon. I'll post pictures when we get some quality work to show!
Thanks for comments though!
-Kacy
I'm a bit late getting back to this, and haven't yet read other responses, but I can tell tyou that you can find specs from Simpson - the hardware/ hanger company that makes most of these hangers - that will definitely tell you that there shopuld be no space there, which is why I mentioend and pointed it out. I t would have been so very easy to slip in a shim such as some ripped 1/2" plywood the full length of the beam on both sides to pack things tight before adding the hangers. Now, I'm afraid that all they have done iis waste time, hardware and nails without accomplishing anything more than making it harder to do it right.
If all that is being carried for load on those cuieling joists is a mode3st share of the cieling load as sheetrock, mayeb they'll sqeak by, but as I remember things, tjhose cieling joists were also functioning as rafter ties and preventing the roof from spreading the walls out. That means that the connection there was a critical one, resisting ourtward thrust on walls as well as the dopwnward load of the cieling. It is impossible in my opinion, for that joint to work for those forces without a snug fit between joist and beam, because there is inadequate nailing for the fasteners recommended by Simpson to connect to the joists.I will read to update before recommending further.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
i'm sure there is a detail on your plans of how the architect wanted the windows to look..
Dont bet the farm on that statement Mike!
We rarely get details on any aspect of any job. If a spec sheet is given, it very often is a generic sheet that the architect (or designer) provides just to show the building department the "general" wall construction.
Mike, I really like that book you sent, "Building With an Attitude". It is loaded with real world, up to date common sense advice. Thanks...I owe ya two Ann Coulter books!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I agree 100% with you about the window detail. I hate to see picture frame trim. I also use trex for false sills .
I also would prefer to see 5/4 trim or something that puts it past the plane of the j channel
For a good explanation of the accepted way to "spline" window openings (Mike's term), go back to my post 53790.32 in this thread, and follow the link to see what DuPont's Tyvek folks say about it.
I was hoping you would tell us what your guy did, but the next thing I saw was window trim in place.
A careful read of the Tyvek document will show you that the work starts before the window unit goes in the opening.
If your U-Build It guy didn't specify to your guy that he flash the window openings properly, us Breaktimers are going to start throwing rocks at him.
After all, how were you supposed to know about something like this?
kc..... that link to the tyvek window installation site was a good primer on flashing and splines in conjunction with Tyvek..
http://construction.tyvek.com/pdf/K02109StuccoBeforeInstall.pdf
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
So do framer's typically charge more to flash the windows "properly"? Or is that considered common practice? Is doing what you suggested a higher end request?
In other words, is there a "sufficient" way to do it and then a "better" way to do it?
Thanks,
Kacy
So do framer's typically charge more to flash the windows "properly"? Or is that considered common practice? Is doing what you suggested a higher end request?
In other words, is there a "sufficient" way to do it and then a "better" way to do it?
Kacy, it's highly likely that those framers don't typically install anything like is being bantered around. It kinda falls under the "higher end" request, but I really wouldn't categorize it as higher end. It's more of a "typically, we do it this way thing". We do what we were taught and what is required.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
You hearing what Blue's saying, Mike?
Window flashing in Michigan? Forgettaboutit!
Isn't Michael Moore from up there somewheres? Maybe he should be considering this as his topic for the next Oscar-winning "documentary."
Windows H2O. I can see it on the marquis now, playing at my local Cineplex 20.
"After all, how were you supposed to know about something like this?"
Because once again ... she's the GC.
UBuilt it sets up the ball game .. they don't officiate the play by play.
Jeff. Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Over there in the other thread where the UBuildIt exec is holding forth, she's going on and on about how many site visits the UBuildIt pro makes for the client, to get everything set up and understood, and to monitor progress and check quality.
So, I'm thinking, the UBuildIt pro certainly must have said to the "framer," "hey, bro, make sure you flash those windows right, like you always do. She's taking pics, and showing them to a bunch of hardasses."
But of course, this is the same UBuildIt pro, and the same "framer," who were so brain dead that they missed the most important thing that wasn't on the framing plan, and that was how the plan dimensions relate to the all-important existing wall the additions springs off of.
This one is starting to feel like U-Pay-Us-and-We-F*ck-It-Up.
"hey, bro, make sure you flash those windows right, like you always do. She's taking pics, and showing them to a bunch of hardasses."
Yeah, I wonder if the framer will be wondering how we figured that out since we are just dumb homeowners who "don't know no different!"
Maybe I should make them aware of all the "hardasses" that are double checking their work every time I snap a few pictures!
We'll see what our UBuildit guys says tomorrow. I did send him the pictures on Ofoto today and I know he looked at them (it shows up in my guestbook who looked at them). But I haven't heard from him yet. (we left him a message a short while ago)
Hopefully between my husband and I, UBuildit, and you guys we will get this house built right eventually! Nobody's 100% perfect all the time, right!
-Kacy!
if i were you, i'd keep my sources to myself
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Maybe I should make them aware of all the "hardasses" that are double checking their work every time I snap a few pictures!
Dont tell them harasss....just tell them Mike is supervising it from snowland.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Gene, I agree with the tenor of your thread in a lot of ways. The thing I've noticed over the years about inspectors is that some see everything that is important, but miss details, some see the details but miss the important things. Very few see both.
With that thought in mind, I'm actually curious about which type will be visiting Kacy's site. Obviously, the guy already missed a big foundation error and when you look at how simple the plans are, it's also obvious that they don't pull out their tapes to do the "inspections".
I doubt that the guy would raise any issues about the lack of 1x2 detail trim on a window, or the lack of any window flashing that surrounds the window before the 1x6 trim. I base that guess on the fact that very few framers put that grace window trim stuff on in Michigan. It's starting to show up now in the big national company subs, but not many small builders supply or insist on it. Call it a regional thing if you want, but around here, we just don't do it, and it's not really a big problem. Of course, most windows are wood, set in brick and the exterior caulking keeps all water out.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
By the way,
Apparently I was mistaken...the UBuildit rep on the other thread has stated that UBuildit's clients are not considered their own GC.
I guess we are just homeowners that want to "manage" our own home construction that would like a little help.
So does that mean I'm not responsible anymore! :) Whew, that's a relief.
So forget what I said before, I'm really just a homeowner. I just happen to be paying random guys to build my house! :) I stand corrected by the UBuildit higher up...
-Kacy!
But we are definitely going to ask them what they did and why. We don't want a half-#### job here because we don't want to be dealing with leaks down the road.
Oh Oh! The Woodmasters are going to get a Breaktime lesson.....
I shoulda ran over there and warned my Michigan buddies....I knew they weren't going to add any window wrap....
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
kc--
If you ever start a HouseBlog, hook up with the rest of us crazies in the 'hood.
take care--
jm