Actually an important question –
Does anyone have first-hand evidence of CSA-listed devices being dis-allowed because they were not also UL listed?
I know, anecdotally from a previous life, that the Rejuvenation Lighting catalog makes the point that their 3-way push-button switches are CSA, not UL-listed, and may be thus not allowed.
But, seems that code only requires that they be “listed”?
Some issues in another arena with UL’s worsening service and skyrocketing costs.
Forrest – not an electrical engineer
Replies
I'm an EE in Minnesota. All of the electrical wiring in a business or residence is required by the State to be listed by a recognized testing and certification laboratory for its intended purpose. Theoretically that could maybe mean something other than UL, but in my experience (at least on municipal, commerical and industrial projects) UL is required. I'm not sure how strict they are on residential jobs.
Products that are only CSA listed aren't necessarily any better or worse than UL listed products - I believe a lot of companies just don't want to put up with all the hassles of getting a UL rating, so they go with CSA instead.
Thanks - I'm now working for the largest lighting manufacturer in the world, and UL is becoming a thorn, it seems.
A slow, expensive thorn.
Especially with LEDs
Forrest
Bump.
Need to have some thoughts on this - anyone? Anyone?
Forrest
UL is, among other things, ISO certified. What this means, in effect, is that anybody can open a lab and test things to UL standards. Or their own standards, for that matter.
Since UL is a private organization, no governmental body, or law, can simply require a "UL" listing on your product. They are not allowed to require you to patronize any particular business.
For your convenience, the OSHA site even has a listing of 'listing agencies' that have some relevance to their work.
While AHJ's have long been familiar with UL, they may not be aware of these other groups, or what the marking means. In a pinch, it may be up to you to document that the XYZ mark is, in your case, essentially the same as the UL testing.
Your main challenge is not meeting the standards, or even getting the AHJ to go along. Your challenge is to counter the legion of UL "technical reps" who are out there, constantly beating the bushes. An example of this is an article recently printed in IAEI news, that stressed a CE mark was not the same as a listing. The article was more a rant than a clear explanation of what exactly the differences were- but many will forgo the dry prose, and just remember the headline.
One booby trap to avoid is that CSA requirements are somewhat different from NEC requirements. For example, the way clearances are measured is different.
Finally ... and I'm quite astonished that you're not already aware of this option .... there is absolutely no requirement that you put the UL tag on each and every fixture. Heck, those tags cost money. It is quite possible that you could put the UL tag on, say, every tenth fixture, and no one would ever object to the rest of the production run.
Sure, UL can come in, pull samples of the tagged fixtures, and charge you for follow-up testing .... I'm sure they already do that ... but they get paid per label, so they will lose income if you don't tag every one. This little detail may give you a bit of leverage, if there are individuals giving you a hard time.
P.S.: Keep in mind that lighting manufacturers - the largest ones in particular - have been really upsetting the customers for quite some time. Poorly fitting parts, sharp metal edges, brittle diffusers, and the latest 'disconnecting means' fracas all contribute to a poor opinion of your employer. Some of these grievances may be behind the closer scrutiny you're facing.
Some questions...
What is CSA?
I've seen the CE stickers...what is CE?
And lastly, what's the "disconnecting Means" fracas?(BTW, I wish I'd known that UL stickers weren't required on each and every item....might have given me some ammunition in a recent dust-up...)
CSA stands for "Canadian Standards Association," an organization that is in some ways a blend of our ASTM and NEC. CE stands for "Congress Europa," or something similar, and is in many ways comparable to our ASTM and ANSI; that is, the mark is the manufacturer's promise that the product meets the applicable European performance standards. The "disconnect fracas" I was referring to is the new NEC requirement that fixtures containing ballasts have some means to disconnect the ballast from power, so that one need not change the ballast "hot." This has led to quite some debate as to who is responsible for installing this disconnect - the fixture maker, the ballast maker, or the installer - and has led to there being several non-interchangeable connectors being marketed.
As the situation currently exists, I have encountered two different connectors, used on the same brand of ballast, in new fixtures from two manufacturers. Neither of these connectors are compatible with the connectors sold by any of the local supply houses. When buying replacement ballasts from the same ballast maker as was used in the fixtures, there is no connector of any kind.
Thanks for the info. I understand the rules, and that UL can't be de facto required, but that it often may be at the installer level. I'm looking for anecdotes, after sitting through an informational meeting.
<Finally ... and I'm quite astonished that you're not already aware of this option . . .>
Sorry about that - only been here about 48 hours. I'll work on it!
Forrest