Ultra Fin Radiant Floor Heating
Anyone ever heard of this system? It sounds pretty good but I have NO experience with radiant floor heating.
I’m finishing up a new house for myself and have unfortunately waited to the last minute to do heating and cooling. (at least the install, I had a heat pump design done in the early stages)
I have a crawlspace that is essentially tall enough to stand up in; 9 1/2″ I joists 24″ o.c.; panel is wired for a heat pump. It doesn’t seem like it would be that difficult to do an “open” radiant system. This version intrigues me.
Even if you have no personal experience with this particular version of radiant floor heating I’d like to hear some comments.
Here is their website
http://www.jupiterheating.com/ultra-fin-radiant-plates.html
Thanks all…please, no swipes about waiting to the last minute. I bought a book on putting an end to procrastination but just can’t seem to find the time to read it…
Replies
A lot of plumbers around here swear that the simplest and best system in this sort of situation is a simple suspended tube system. Insulation under the joists is critical.
But don't listen to me...go to Heating Help's The Wall for more expert advice.
If it was my house, I would go to my local heating guy at the plumbing supply house and have him design a system.
I guess part of what I'm asking is couldn't the tubes be suspended without the cool little "grills"?
The tubing will give off it's heat one way or another.
Based on what I've seen on their website I don't see much surface area being added because of the spacing of their grills.
These fins are simply a way of spreading the heat out. You can buy the same type of fin, but it doesn't require 'assembly'. Besides ... you would want to attach the fin to the subfloor ... not just suspend it in the joist cavity ... like you say ... in many respects the tubing will give up its heat one way or the other. Attached to the floor, aluminum will help spread the heat out along the subfloor rather than have the heat 'focused' in one place.
I bought preformed aluminum ... flat plate w/ a formed hollow for the tubing for mine. No assembly required. Can't remember how much I paid or where I got them.
Not impressed by the website you linked us to ... (but I tend to be critical of websites that don't read REAL FAST). It didn't make it clear to me ... if this plate was to be used on tubing suspended in the floor joist (maybe I read it to fast).
Don't rush into this too much, though. Radiant systems aren't to be rushed.
"I guess part of what I'm asking is couldn't the tubes be suspended without the cool little "grills"?The tubing will give off it's heat one way or another."Right. That's what I'm hearing. Not only are the plates expensive and time consuming to install, they can be noisy. You have the tubes suspended below the subfloor. Underneath you install reflective insulation. With the suspended tube system, you need hotter water than is normally the case with radiant--180 F is what I have heard.
I presume that you could just use a tube with no fins if you had a large enough space between the insulation and the floor to allow convection to spread the heat throughout the joist space. If you don't have enough space you will end up with hot strips and cold strips. I don't know what effect the temperature extremes and resulting moisture or lack of moisture effects may be on the flooring materials.
Additionally, without the aluminum fins to spread the heat, I am sure that the water temperature will need to be much higher. You do not mention how you plan to heat the water but higher water temperatures can significantly effect the efficiency of your system.
All you mentioned was plans to use a heat pump. If that means that you are dependent on electric heat, a heat pump's efficiency is very dependent on the temperature difference between the source of the heat and the heat output so you would want to operate with a radiant temperature as low as possible. If you use an electric boiler, the temperature will have no effect on efficiency but will be several times more expensive than a heat pump to operate. I would avoid that option unless you were building a supper insulated house that needs a heating system to meet building codes but could be heated by leaving a few extra lights on in the cold weather.
If you are planning to use natural gas or propane, if you need high temperature water, above about 140F, the best you can do as far as efficiency is about 80%. If you are able to use lower temperature water, more in the range or 90F to 110F, more typical of radiant heat, you can use a high efficiency, condensing boiler which will have and efficiency of 95% to 98%. Lower operating temperatures can mean nearly 20% less spent on fuel which can add up over time.
Oil does not have the possibilities of operating in condensing mode so there is not a particularly great penalty for higher temperatures as far as efficiency but has significantly greater maintenance requirements.
There are other systems with aluminum trays to spread the heat which are meant to be in direct contact with the subfloor which may be more efficient than the system you were looking at and may not require as much assembly effort. I think I would look at various systems before jumping into the one you are looking at.
edit:
Looking further at this product after writing the above, it appears that they plan on a high system operating temperature so you will not have the efficiency gains of a low temperature system. You also do not have the opportunity to just increase the water temperature to compensate for a system without the fins so if you choose to leave the fins out, you would need to compensate with more tubing. I don't know which would be cheaper but drilling many more holes and threading more tubing would probably be more work than their fins. You also won't have the advantage of their design services assuming that they provide them. You will also need to install the insulation below the joists as opposed to putting fiberglass in between the joists as with the radiant plate systems.
Make sure that any supplier you use of this type of system provides a good system design service. There website did not emphasize their design services so they may not do that.
Edited 2/9/2009 2:36 pm ET by Kurt99
One point I didn't make clear is that I will either do a heat pump for heating and cooling OR radiant for heating and forced air for cooling.
I get what they are saying about the fins but from the diagram I saw there doesn't seem to be that many so it just doesn't seem it would be as "effective" as direct contact with the floor.
However, it does look like their system would give you more "even" heating since you are heating the entire joist cavity.
Everyone here seems to think that would definately require hotter water temps.
I definately need to do more research.
Edit:
http://www.ultra-fin.com is the manufacturer's site. I didn't realize before but the other site is a distributor's site.
Edited 2/9/2009 4:25 pm ET by stevenplane
last time I checked their output claims were totally bogus. Ultra fin is a glorified staple up, with a little more output than plateless suspended tube. probably about on par with lightweight plates in the joist.Best in joists is heavy gauge aluminum conductive plates. If you don't need that, suspended tube works for low load systems.Ultrafin has one benefit of getting a little more output without having to clip nails in a retrofit, that's nice.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Your post was a little bit unclear to me.
Do you suggest the staple up and heavier guage aluminum? What guage exactly?
Can you suggest any websites, etc. where I can do more research?
Thanks
most systems benefit from heavy gauge aluminum plates; these are the rigid ones you install first, then snap tubing into from below typically. at least 1/20th and some are 1/16th inch thick.however, low load situations or small add ons to high temperature systems may not need plates at all.I'm sure we've had a dozen discussion on this over that the radiant panel association forums, and here is a classic article on the matter called "plateless in radiantville"http://www.pmmag.com/Articles/Column/c3f68c312dfc7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
That was part of my complaint w/ the product literature ... it wasn't real clear how many to use and some of the details of the way it was to be installed. And we here at BT generally agree that much of construction is ALL ABOUT THE DETAILS. The details can make or break a system.
My radiant guy swears by UltraFin and even installed it in his new home.
Obviously it eliminates conductive heat transfer directly from the PEX to the floor, (what those heavy and light plates do). All the heat from the PEX must either radiate from the UltraFin to the bottom of the floor, or through convection from the UltraFin to the air in the joist space which then heats the bottom of the floor. Talk about slow response!
I would just use standard heat transfer plates. You don't want to find out you can't heat your house after the system is installed.
OB
Edited 2/10/2009 12:30 pm ET by klhoush
Do you have his email?
Or can you give him mine?
I'd love to talk to someone who has actually put it in.