Anyone out there ever feel unappreciated by an employee? I recently got into a screaming match with an employee. He was a friend of mine from college (8 years ago) who I bumped into at Home Depot. I found out that he was washing dishes for $7/hr. at Skyline (a Cincinnati restaurant) but interested in remodeling. I figured I’d help him out. I started him at $10/hr. even though he had limited experience. (He was also recently divorced and his ex-wife was the manager of the restaurant where he washed dishes.) He’d also lost his license because he was driving without insurance and the police happened to run his plates.
To help him get back on his feet, I lent him money to reinstate his license, drove him to and from court, and picked him up for work until he got his license. He continued working his job cleaning dishes at night for awhile, and I would drive him through rush hour traffic to work. (Eventually, he quit because he said he couldn’t deal with his x-wife.) When he found a car he wanted to buy, I lent him $60 bucks when he came up short. I’d buy him lunch daily (no thank you, just expected. Whenever someone buys me lunch, I feel like I’ve won the lottery!) Whenever I had duplicate tools or extras, I’d give them to him to help him get started.
At work I tried to teach him how to do things the most efficient way, but I was not adverse to him wanting to try things differently, unless I knew that they wouldn’t work properly. I began to notice that he would not listen to me concerning some instructions, but usually I just let it slide, preferring not to be an
. When another employee told me he used my $190 4 5/8″ self feed hole saw for cutting durrock, I kept my cool and explained that wood bits are for wood ONLY. When he dropped an 8&
#39; piece of 3″ PVC down a client’s laundry chute (destroying the hatch/door in the basement—-and didn’t tell me, but instead let the client show me (making me look like an
.), I didn&
#39;t single him out, but told all employees that when something goes wrong, it is IMPERATIVE that we acknowledge the screwup, fix it or promise to fix it as soon as possible.
He would complain that he wanted to have a list of things to do, but I didn’t feel comfortable listing jobs for him to do unless I showed him how to do each one specifically. If I assumed he knew how to do something, he would invariably find a way to screwup the unscrewupable! For example, when you mix floor levelor, or any powdered mix, the water has to go into the bucket BEFORE THE POWDER, or else it sticks to the bottom. I figured there was no way to mess up the mix, but while I’m at Home Depot picking up materials I get a phone call asking about how watery floor levelor should be….$30 bag of floor levelor ruined….
Last Friday, I had a client call with a gas leak. I had to leave, and I didn’t have a small job to leave him to do. I told him he could sweep or organize tools/supplies; he assumed I was just making busy work for him, and said “Just call me when you need me” and packed his tools and went home! I thought he’d quit, but on Sunday he called me. I told him, that since the house was a mess when I returned from my emergency call, I ended up spending an hour and half organizing/cleaning. IN OTHER WORDS, it wasn’t busy work, but needed work! He said he hadn’t quit, and that maybe we should have a meeting to state what was expected of him. I said fine. See you on Monday.
This leads up to yesterday. I was as usual attempting to keep the entire job moving, floating from employee to employee making sure everything was moving forward in time/quality. My employee has continually wanted to know about wiring, so I thought I’d indulge him, and let him help me wire the can lights in the kitchen. Home Depot has new 3″ brushed nickel halogen cans which look cool, but are so new that all the parts aren’t even sold to put them up. Since I’ve never put them up, I haven’t gotten the system down yet. I suggested that he strike some lines on the ceiling to ensure that all the cans were properly spaced, and that to MAKE certain that they were hung just below the joists so that the cover plates would fit properly. I also showed the client’s preferred layout. Of course in the joist pockets, there’s blocking that needs to be moved. I told my employee that blocking is important and needs to be moved. I go upstairs, expecting to come back down, and have the cans nailed in there proper positions. Of course NOT! Instead of moving the blocking, the lights are positioned OVER where the future cabinets will be! No lines were struck to insure uniformity! I REEXPLAIN and help move them into the proper positions, while he continues to nail up the other cans too high in the joist pockets!
His continual bitch to me is that sometimes I go to explain to him how to do things, and end up doing it myself!! That’s because it’s easier to do it myself the FIRST TIME, than have to redo it after he tries to do it!
When I attempted to show him the difference between a switch leg (power to the light) and a regular switch (power to the switch box), and asked him if he understood, he got frustrated. He wanted to ask specific questions, and I wanted to make sure he understood the entire concept of wiring a regular switch. I took a length of 14-2 wire stripped both ends, and said “Pretend this end is the power, this end is the line to the light and show me how you’d wire the switch. He said he understood how to do it. (He’d previously changed out outlets in the house. He’d also took apart TRIPLE switches, without labeling the wires, assuming I’d figure out what was hooked to what…) I told him to show me, and he couldn’t do it.
Then the screamfest began.
I told him that was it. It’s not going to work. He continually wouldn’t listen to how I wanted things to be done, continually doing things his way (usually the long, dirty, wrong way). I cut him a check for the week including the entire day even though it was two o clock, and told him not to worry about the $200 he owed me. I ran home wrote out a check, left it in my mailbox, went back to work, he’d packed his tools and left.
I quick side note that may or may not matter: I’m white, he’s black, and as I recently found out, an “Israelite”. This group of people believes that the Jews currently inhabiting the country of Israel are frauds, and that the true Hebrews are Africans. I’m only stating this because I’m not sure if it was this racial difference that caused the irritating circumstances that led to yesterday’s confontation. Is he resentful of my authority (or lack of) because I’m white? Does he resent that we’re same age, and he isn’t as far along? (What he doesn’t know is that I’m up to my eyeballs in debt, and work 60-80hrs a week.)
I assume it’s my fault for not “being the boss”. I’ve come to understand all the
bosses I&
#39;ve had in the past: Finally I see that you can’t have friends in a boss/employee situation. I’ve gotten so tired of giving so much and being so unappreciated.
The moral of the story is: DON’T HIRE FRIENDS, or former friends. And, the moment someone is disrespectful or not following directions, MAKE A FUSS, be an a$$hole. It’s only way to get anything done. Machiavelli was right: Better to be feared/hated and respected, than loved and walk all over.
Any ideas out there?
Replies
Jack, that sucks, all I can say is I've been there and it's no fun.
I've had very similar situations with two friends who were both white, and I'm white, so I don't think it's a race thing. What I did to learn about what I was doing wrong was to read up on Myers-Briggs personality traits and other ways people can be different.
In the end I realized that because my jobs, like yours, included lots of different skills and talents and the need for judgement based on experience, that to have an employee who was not already at journeyman level did not make sense. Although like you I enjoy teaching others the skills I have learned, it's not my full-time job. Most people need to be spoon-fed knowledge a bit at a time, not thrown a full-course meal.
Some of the other guys here and I are reading a book called First Break All the Rules (What the World's Greatest Managers Do Differently). Well, they're reading it, I'm just starting because I've had a few of those 80hr weeks you speak of. I think it might hold some of the secrets guys like you and me struggle with when it comes to managing people.
Mike
Mike,Thanks for writing back. I'll check out the book, too. I'm going to be on the lookout for someone with more experience. In the end, the increased productivity will make up for the extra cash. Maybe I'll even find someone who can run a crew and feel pride enough in their job that they keep up quality on their own....
Last February, I ended up with a large drywall job. Not really being a drywaller, I called up a guy I knew that was good at it.He was working in a cabinet assembly plant for $8.00 an hour. I asked how much he needed. He said $12, I said OK.He had some cheap a$$ toy hammer that broke right off the bat so I bought him a new Estwing (told him to pick out whatever he wanted from the selection at the hardware store).I raised him to $15 right off the bat because he came in and really worked his a$$ off getting that drywall up. It was understood that we would finish this job and that he would leave to go do his own thing (with winter ending he figured he would pick up).Anyway, as we neared the end of the job, he started asking about what was next. I told him he was nuts, but OK. Next job was a roof.He was great on that first roof. Listened to everything I said.It was the second roof that problems arose. Having done one roof, he was a roofer now and didn't listen nearly as well. I had to watch him like a hawk to keep the shingles in a straight line (with chalked lines!).It was during this second roof that he finally got a vehicle. I had been picking him up and taking him home.Then some siding and soffit/fascia work. Again, I had to watch him like a hawk.Then he gave two week notice.With a day left he said he might reconsider.The last day I asked him what has changed that he might want to stay. He said nothings changed, he wants a raise. He said he'd been with me 90 days and he wanted a 90 day raise. I explained that he got the 90 day raise in the first week and there was no raise forthcoming. So he quite.I'm white, he is black. But it isn't race, it is background. He grew up poor in the projects and is always looking for the big kill.After he left, he got a roof job. Tore most of it off and then disappeared. Customer had leaks and had to hire a different roofer to finish the job.He is a real nice guy and we get along great, but I'd never hire him back.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
IMHO, it boils down to finding people who, when they screw up say, "Geeze, I screwed up". Too many guys say, "Well, that saw...that wall...this lumber..."etc.
One guy I worked with doing renos was capable of good work, but he often would just slap something up and say "it is what it is" I got so sick of hearing it. He would follow up his screw ups with passive aggressive behavior, i.e, throwing materials, cursing, stalling saws etc. so no would question his work.
I dealt with this BS for a year, finally during one his little passive aggresive tirades (while I was fixing some screwed up dw he'd done) -kicking a tool bag across the room and dropping drywall on edge, etc. He and I had a little talk. When his feet were back on the ground, he locked up his tools and left. I apologized to my boss and tried to explain I hadn't done anything like that in 20 years, he interupted, "I'm glad it was you and not me" (?) "because it was so much fun to watch".
We never worked on the same job again and he was fired about 2 weeks later for lying about his hours and shoddy work. I got a raise.
I've come to understand one of the biggest obstacles in construction is finding people who have the desire do their best even when no one is looking.
Jim
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Jack - Sorry you had to go through that. Unappreciative employees are out there, and if you hire enough people, you're going to end up dealing with them. Machiavellianism isn't necessarily the answer, 'tho. Its just that you have to be firm with them. I don't know if you have kids, but with problematic employees you have to be like a parent: reasonable but firm. Explain that there will be discipline for not following directions, and follow through on your threat, if need be.
He may play the race card and claim harrassment, which is why you have to document everything. A hassle, but a lifesaver if he ever tries to get back at you in a legal venue. Another excellent book (I learned a lot from) is What Every Supervisor Should Know: The Basics of Supervisory Management by Lester R. Bittel
I once had to fire the most popular and most knowledgeable guy on the crew, for the reasons you mentioned: repeatedly not following instructions (I'm talking GLARING oversights, that cost the company a lot of money). I thought for sure the crew would be furious with me. His best friend (our painter) approached me after work the next day, and said that he respected me for what I did, and that it was hard for anyone to take the job seriously when this guy was cutting-up all day.
Productivity increased, and everyone paid close attention when I explained how I wanted things done.
sure ...
but I don't babysit ...
or have long shouting matches.
I fire.
Short and sweet.
I don't shout at my 3 year old ... he just does what he's told. There is no reasoning. No conversation.
Why should a grown man be any different?
I don't ask much ... when I do ... it'd better get done.
If not .... Pick up Your Tools ... Leave.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Unless you have to, don't hire friends, or relatives because they usually won't respect your authority. Unless major idiocy is involved, I normally give employees three chances. With this guy, it sounds like you put up with a lot more than I would have.
There may be a reason why he was washing dishes instead of flying the Space Shuttle...
I've been in the same situation. It's not good. Buisiness is business, friendship is friendship, and sometimes the two can meet, but rarely. This guys problem is much bigger than just him needing a job, and you can't fix it, nor should you. Did you ever wonder why he was washing dishes? I'm older now and know that the best approach is to give a person a trial, and if it doesn't work, make it short and sweet. Walk a mile with someone but don't feed their addictions and problems.
Sometimes 2 people just can't work together. The way they learn/interact just doesn't work. And from your narrative, I'd say this was the case with the 2 of you. You probably had zero chance of working together long term unlkess one of you was willing to give in to the other person's way of learning/teaching. Doesn't sound like that was the case.
There are folks out there who really appreciate it when people offer them help, and try to return the favor. Others, when given help just expect more and more help.
And honestly - Most of the black people I've dealt with fall into the latter catagory. Don't know if it's the way they were raised or what, but it seems to be the case with the ones I've known. Or maybe I've just been unlucky.
Sorry you got burned. I think we all have at least once. Glad you felt like you could vent here.
"There are folks out there who really appreciate it when people offer them help, and try to return the favor. Others, when given help just expect more and more help.
And honestly - Most of the black people I've dealt with fall into the latter catagory. Don't know if it's the way they were raised or what, but it seems to be the case with the ones I've known. Or maybe I've just been unlucky."
Wow ... did I just read that?
I'm thinking U gotta meet a better class of "black people" ...
for me ... it'd be ... "most of the people" ...
but I'm pretty clear on the fact that I just don't like people in general ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
"Wow ... did I just read that?
I'm thinking U gotta meet a better class of "black people" ..."
I've wondered that too. I try to look at people as individuals separately from their race. But it's hard to do when you have a consistent run of bad luck with one particular race.
I'd rather not go farther into it - Don't want to hijack the thread.
Brain cells come and brain cells go, but fat cells live forever.
To all bosses who stated their feelings about their worker's skills in many ways, I see the same thing with the machinist world too. I always wonder about those workers who aren't doing what the boss would have had wanted. One day the boss asked me if I would become a shop Forman, I told him I would but I would fire all those guys who aren't worthy for the company and start with hard honest workers and would hire trained machinist than have those greenies working with us. I'm just getting a little tired of "training" those guys on how to do a job and try to keep them where they are to stay with it. Reading your stories on workers makes me want to work with you as you're honest about your feelings and do talk about it. MMM... change of jobs from machinist to a home builder......
In 1975 I got my 1st foreman job, running a crew doing historic restorations. The supe on the job was a real old school hard a$$ ( WOW!! 30 yrs ago we were ALL old school !!). Any way he took me aside the 1st wk. & said "remember: you can be friendly with the men but you can't be friends with them". I was a 24yr. old go-getter & a statement like that went right on thru my head. 30 yrs and many, many crews & employees later that has been the single most important mgmnt. tool I've used.Be interested in the individuals,listen to them, give credit & praise when due,cultivate their " ownership" in every project, but don't go to the bar with them or to their house for Thanksgiving!When you have a quality person it can be tough to hold to that rule but believe me it's the only way to run a crew.
Norske,
How do you feel about company bar-b-ques, or other get togethers? What should managements role be in those?
Do they help or hinder overall production and profit?
SamT
SamT Hey I'm a great believer in company get togethers/celebrations. End of season or end of project A good way to build that loyalty & ownership. Sometimes I'll just take the crew to lunch,especially after a tough day or two.Easy way to say thanks. In the case of co. bar-b-q, we provide grill & meat rest is potluck with whole family invited.T ime to meet spouses & kids.But we are relating on a group level not individuals. Beware of demon rum. We never provide alcohol. Tried it in my past. Big mistake.I believe most employees thrive under this kind of relationship. Boundaries are clear & I'm a benevolent dictator!!
That's a pretty good rule to live by.
Who Dares Wins!
Norske,
but don't go to the bar with them or to their house for Thanksgiving!When you have a quality person it can be tough to hold to that rule but believe me it's the only way to run a crew
SOmething I learned from the Amry that served me well when I owned a small company. You can associate with your peers but not your subordinates.
You cant save everyone. Many times its not even a matter of work ethic. Its a matter of ignorance. Some people can be trained at anything, others will never wake up and smell the coffee. Its not neccessarily they're fault, just they're limitations.
Everyone knows people who are very successful in their own line of work, maybe even making much more money than us, but could'nt hold the stupid end of a tape measure or drive a nail to save their life.
Someone could make the argument that you are the one who failed to recognize his limitations and give him tasks more suited to his abilitys. Here in the northeast the stinking liberals would haul your butt into court and make you reinstate him with back pay for missed time. (BTW, I dont subscribe to that)
If you need to hire a friend keep him at arms length. Try not to spend more time with him than you would if he worked elsewhere. then dont get involved in his personal finances
I've got 22 yrs in the Air Force, 16 of which I've been supervising people. Some I get along with some I don't. The ones who've been continuous screw-ups have never fallen into any one race or education level, but one common aspect has been that thier screw-ups were usually someone elses fault. "I wasn't properly supervised" "you never briefed us on that" "You're just being picky, Anal, too hard, expect too much, didn't tell me I did a good job enough" and on and on. I've had really good people really screw up, they've accepted responsibility and the consequences and moved on. The funny thing (after the fact) is when a screw claims to accept responsibility, they get a little wierd about accepting the consequences.
But I've been thanked for taking care of my gus too. More often than told how horrible I am, so I guess I'm doing something right. I try to live by the rule that if my name ain't on the bathroom wall every now and then, I probably ain't doin' my job as a supervisor. Whether on the Flightline fixing airplanes, or on a construction project, a supervisor job is to get the job done, quickly, efficiently, and safely. We do that by working with people to make it happen. All of us have at one time or another reached out to give someone a leg up. And we've all been burned a time or two for it. We'll keep doing it, because those employees who apprieciate it become fiercely loyal and will stick with us through rough times. Those that keep asking for more breaks? They need a social welfare organization, and we ain't it.
Some people aren't meant to be in the Military, or carpenters, or bus drivers or whatever. In the case of your friend, well, he was washing dishes for his ex-wife. That tells me no one else in the world would hire him, or he is too lazy to get off his butt to make his own life better. As for the "True Isrealite" crap, whole systems of government have been built on the premise that one group is endowed at birth with certain rights over others. Those systems are fast falling by the wayside. Any one who believes the mere fact that by birth they are any better than anyone else is a loser. Our "Great Experiment" in America proves that everyone is the sum total of thier accomplishments, the highest born are just as welcome on skid row as the lowest born, and vice versa. Old Money and New money both get together and make more money. I love this country.
My Way less than humble opinion.
Larry
Wow, great post.
Mike
"I'm only stating this because I'm not sure if it was this racial difference that caused the irritating circumstances that led to yesterday's confontation. "
Probably nothing to do with it. Just a mentality/intelligence difference.(that's why he was washing dishes for $7/hr when you found him)
You hired a $7.00/hr dish washer and tried to make him a chef. Credit goes to you for being patientn and a good friend, but some people can only do certain jobs. Remember....(old chinese proverb).....a smart man will learn more from an idiot than vise versa.
Again.....you tried to help, and in the end that makes you a better person. Hopefully at some level he understands that.
RE the Israelite bit: this isn't racism, it's just further evidence (as if you needed any) that he's crazy.
Been there, just two weeks ago. I paid a friend of mine much better than I should have. I should have fired him months before. But he had bills, family, ect.., so I kept him around. Then... he quits me on Sunday night, when I needed his help on Monday.
Moral of the story is that they aren't looking out for your good, don't look out for theirs. You must look out for the good of your buisness. After all, your family eats from it.
I am sick of helping people and getting screwed.
Just venting here now. I helped an employee to start investing in real estate. Found the house, inspected the house, did the estimate, helped talk to the bank for him. He gets the duplex, tells me now he doesn't have enough time and has to get the house ready, so he quits!!! A month later he's working for another construction crew for probably another .25 an hr. and I taught him everything he knew! 8 months later and the house still isn't done. I could never do that to somebody.
If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man.
--Mark Twain
someone here uses this as their tagline - truer words were never spoken - hope the break with this guy is clean and the episode doesn't spoil your idealism -
regards, DOUD
You tried to do MORE than right by him.. Some folks never appreciate ANYTHING..
You can't change that.. Just don't give up on ALL friends because of it.. Life is to short for that...
(He was also recently divorced and his ex-wife was the manager of the restaurant where he washed dishes.) ......
Sure it was HIS fault NOT theirs!
Edited 4/22/2005 1:49 pm ET by Will George
hey, jack... you know what i can't figger ?
how come his ex-wife let a prize like him get away
and 2d thing.. how come your other employees didn't walk when they realized what a chump you were..
the road to hell is paved with good intentions..
but anyways, you made my day with your story....
i've had one or two of your "friend" on my payroll in the past... what a chump i was
Some people are just beyond help. Souns like this is one of 'em.
"Tell me again, Mr. Ledbetter. What's a Mississippi Flush and how's it beat this hand?
It's a small revolver and any five cards."
Pikers... mere neophytes at being abused by employees you've treated well.
I think I told the story here a while back about trying to help out a kid who (unbeknownst to me) turned out to not be merely troubled but a crackhead who stole my brand new Jeep Cherokee and traded it to his crack dealer...top that ;)
But sadly I've been there more than once and the feeling always sucks but I keep telling myself that it's better to be the guy who tried to help people and got boned along the way a couple times than the guy who never tries to help anyone. Don't let it make you a cynic, there are plenty of times when you can change, or even save someone's life. I have former employees from 20 years ago that still look me up on occasion.
Ooops, didn't mean to single you out Intrepid...
Edited 4/22/2005 4:17 pm ET by PaulB
Edited 4/22/2005 4:17 pm ET by PaulB
Well, I sure can't top that Jeep story...........................<G>
"Tell me again, Mr. Ledbetter. What's a Mississippi Flush and how's it beat this hand?It's a small revolver and any five cards."
"a crackhead who stole my brand new Jeep Cherokee"
Reminds me very, very much of what happened to the father of my token rich friend. Circa 1985.
Dad's driving along and picks up a hitchhiker.
Wobbly tire or some such causes him to stop, engine running, on the highway. he gets out to check. The Jeep drives away.
Dad, once back at the office, argues in his defense that he figures you trust everyone you meet or you mistrust everyone you meet. He doesn't want to go through life mistrusting everyone.
Son says you could assess each person and figure out if they are likely to be trustworthy.
Dad says his way saves time.
Son says his way saves Jeeps.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Well since we do have the internet available, I got sold, and sold HARD, years ago on the Blanchard SLII model. Perhaps go search for that while you're looking for other ideas. So, my opinion, that it works, works well, and makes life a complete breeze when you're trying to be in charge of other people, and makes their life easier at understanding what to expect from you. Anyway. Might check it out. Maybe the ten minutes you spend glossing over it is worth something in the long run. Difference between how I interact with people now vs before is black and white.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Thanks everyone for listening to me vent. Makes me feel less of an a$$ knowing that I'm not the first, or last, to try and help someone and got kicked in the teeth. This forum is awesome...
So I'm reading through this thread, thinking "yeah, the guy's an ungrateful, incorrigible jerk."But I'm also thinking that a lot of such problems spring from poor communications. Then I read 4lorn1's comments, and he whacks you between the eyes with his observations, which I think you ought to at least consider -- after you get over being pissed. My partner is a wonderful guy, funny, easy to get along with -- but he is miserable at laying down directions, unless you are skilled at reading his "code", which sometimes comes in the form of grunts, and oblique suggestions. He and I do just fine, but that's because we have a great relationship, and if I don't understand some one of his expectations, I yell and holler (always with a grin) until he finally spits it out. We bring in other people from time to time, and I usually end up following up for him to make sure they understand the task at hand, and if necessary, to explain why it has to be done that way.
My point is -- too often directions that are crystal clear to me, I find may not be so clear to the listener. Maybe that's because I have been through it a thousand times, and he's only done it once or twice. Maybe he's stupid -- or just contrary. But I figure if the job didn't get done the way I wanted it to get done, it's my fault -- not his. Part of this is plain communication -- finding a way to explain what you want in a way he will understand. But the other piece of this is managerial motivation -- making him want to do it your way. We've had to get rid of guys because they were lazy, undependable, irresponsible, etc. -- but never because they wouldn't do what we told them to do.I really don't mean this to be critical of you. I think you tried to be good and decent to this guy. But I would like to join 4lorn1 in urging you to take another perspective in looking at this whole situation.
Edited 4/23/2005 1:36 am ET by nikkiwood
My partner is a wonderful guy, funny, easy to get along with -- but he is miserable at laying down directions, unless you are skilled at reading his "code", which sometimes comes in the form of grunts, and oblique suggestions.
This is funny, mainly because you just described me, or as I'd like to think, my former self. Recently, I attended a communication seminar and picked up some good suggestions. An interesting thing brought up was that communication is 7% verbal and 93% non-verbal. 38% through vocal tones and 55% through facial expressions ("code")
Another point is that there is a 40-60% loss of meaning in transmission, which I can confirm from personal experience. I usually have one or two semi-skilled or unskilled folks on the job. When laying out a task for someone I'd stop occasionally and ask "you follow me" or something like that. They would nod their heads and say yes but I could tell from the glazed look in their eyes that they are on a beach in Florida or still stuck in last night. What I do now is make them repeat back what I said and for those slower on the uptake, repeat it several times (confirmation)
Pologize for thread hijack
Tom
<<"An interesting thing brought up was that communication is 7% verbal and 93% non-verbal. 38% through vocal tones and 55% through facial expressions ("code")">>I don't think I would agree that the verbal is as low as 7%.Years ago, I heard George Patton used to say (to paraphrase) " Tell them which hill to take, but never tell them how to do it. They will amaze you with their ingenuity in finding ways to accomplish the task."In my business, I translated this to mean:1) Tell them what has to be accomplished and why.2) If they're inexperienced, tell them how you would do it. 3) Then tell them you hope they can find a better/faster way.This technique is good, I think, because it clearly spells out the objective, gives them the tools to accomplish it, but shows respect for their ingenuity in arriving at a specific technique that will work best for them. "I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
-- Bertrand Russell
Nikkiwood,I can see both of your alternate points of view, though I must say you packaged it much better than 4lorn1! (You must be the peace maker on the job site, able to give the bad news, but not be perceived as the bad guy...diplomatic;)When I attempted to show the fired employee how to do things slowly and clearly, because it's true, I work faster and harder than anyone you will ever meet (ADHD can be productive), he complained to his friend, another employee, that he didn't like being spoken to like a child. I was attempting to show him how to do things the way I wanted it done, but after watching me do it or suggesting a better way of doing it, he wouldn't do it. For example: If I find a tool that can do a job faster, I'm either going to buy it or rent it. This stems from me getting carpal tunnel from my first remodeling job because the lead in that company refused to outlay for tools that would help speed the job, and be healthy to the workers: He had me use a spud bar to break up a HUGE tile floor. I was new and didn't know about electric chippers. I couldn't understand after a week of that why I woke up and couldn't feel my fingertips! SO, anytime there's a tool that will help, I buy it or rent. I own a Hilti demolition hammer, and was using it before anyone else got to work one day, tearing up the tile in a kitchen/foyer. I'd got the technique down, and showed my employee how to do it. He tried it for a little while, but I guess the weight of the mini jackhammer was making him sweat, so instead he wanted to use my Bosch Bulldog to jack the floor instead. I tell him the Hilti is the best way to do it. He just goes and gets the other hammerdrill and starts. I continue with the Hilti. An hour later, I've taken up 90% of the floor. He's seen that it's a waste of time to use the smaller hammer, and just starts to pick up debris and carry it to the dumpster. This is one example. Another is when I bought a wallpaper steamer to remove wallpaper. The day before he'd sprayed diff on a small bathroom and the paper came off in big, satisfying pieces. We both start to strip the wallpaper in the new master bath that we're converting from a bedroom, and he uses the new steamer for a few minutes, but grudgingly. I say "You don't like the new tool?" He says "It's really not any faster than just diff by itself." I say, "Ok" and start using the thing by myself. OF course, the wallpaper today doesn't come off in big satisfying pieces, UNLESS you use the steamer. I proceed to strip off 90% of the wallpaper, while he's frantically using the paper tiger and a scraper and gets next to nothing.You'd think after a few of these occurences he'd at least acknowledge that I have some idea of what I'm talking about. That's the disrespect I'm speaking of. When I was new, I LISTENED to what more experienced people had to say. I STILL LISTEN! If there's a better way of doing something, I'm not stuck on doing it "My Way". Anything to do it PROPERLY, but more efficient is good.I don't know why 4lorn1 is automatically gunning for me. He must have received handouts, not listened, thinks he knows it ALL (hence the comment about mixing powders from an ELECTRICIAN), and can relate to ingratitude from the taking side...
Edited 4/24/2005 9:11 pm ET by Jack
After reading your comments and explanations (post 41), I am going to back down. I think you did just about everything you could, and it does look like you went with the guy as long as you could, and then you did what you had to do in letting him go. The work is hard enough in this business, and one thing I won't tolerate is a guy who is divisive and a PIA to work with. If they can't see the light after a heart-to-heart, then they gotta go. Kudos to you for giving the guy a chance in the first place; I'm just sorry it had to end this way, but you shouldn't beat yourself up over it."I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
-- Bertrand Russell
Edited 4/25/2005 1:36 am ET by nikkiwood
It would be interesting to hear his side of the story.
I think the main problem is not him being a friend. The real issues at hand are:
You have an untrained man. Your interested in getting the job done. You are short on concept and explanation and long on required performance. The guy may not understand anything about electricity. If you don't know the basics, like the difference between a conductor and insulator and current flow in circuits, you can explain how to hook up the switch until your blue in the face.
Likely all he sees is this guy ranting, because you see the time clock and have a job to get done and have little time for training, and he understands he is uncomfortable and you are looking for him to claim he understands.
He takes apart a switch box and you freak. He likely doesn't understand a thing about switches, while you seem to know everything, and so he figures a switch is a switch so you should be able to put it together in a thrice. Exactly why would he know not to disassemble the box. Did you tell him?
As for the leveler compound? That is the first I ever heard of mixing it with he water in the bucket. Been on lots of sites. Of course I can't say I have been around a lot of leveler compound. The times I need cement I usually mix it with cement in the bucket and add water. Why do you think he would automatically know otherwise.
The second big issue is you. You obviously don't know much about training. Part of this is because you do a lot of things automatically. You forget he has no background in construction. He has nothing to base your pearls of wisdom on. He is still in the wide eye phase. Everything is new.
I see a lot of guys in this situation. I usually try to get them started with nothing more complicated than sweeping up and organizing materials and tools. After a few weeks of just being on a site they pick up a lot of context to which you can then add specific information.
I see a lot of bosses run people off because they are in a short term mindset. They get upset when the new guy isn't profitable from the first day. They fail to lead the target. They fail to se that a new man can take weeks, sometimes months, to become profitable. Hiring a new man is a commitment. One which you entered into without setting aside the money and time to cover the new position. It is a business decision not a move to make to for emotional reasons.
The other part of this is your, not his, confusion over where friendship stops and business begins. Your operating with emotion where business is concerned and logic on the friendship side. Exactly backwards.
Your the boss and yet you list fronting money and making up his shortfalls as part of this discussion. As if he made you do it. Your the boss on the job and the protagonist in this relationship. You made the move of trying to help him but then resent making these efforts as evidenced by your listing them here.
Once he was hired you need to maintain a professional standing. Seldom is it wise to loan money to anyone. Much less a friend. With a friend it is often better to just give it to them and forget about it. His being short for buying a car is a personal problem. Nothing you should get involved with as a boss.
Sounds to me you are the one confused on the friend/boss front.
> "...a new man can take weeks, sometimes months, to become profitable. Hiring a new man is a commitment."
This is true, but we have to know how to recognize right away whether an employee is going to warrant such a commitment. Often times when you hire someone on the spur of the moment, it's because you're in a bind already with a particular job, and an error in judgement can start costing you money right away.
I've definitely had my share of bad hiring experiences, and I've learned from each one. But this wisdom won't protect me from hiring another bad employee - only luck can do that. The fact is, anyone can b.s. their way into a job, and even believe it themselves when they tell you that they're going to work hard and be productive. The trick is to spot the bad employees early, and cut your losses.
"The fact is, anyone can b.s. their way into a job"
Sort of. The ability of a some job applicants to BS is impressive, to be sure.
BUT, your knowledge and ability are presumably greater. So they say they can wire a distribution panel for a house, ask for details. What brand panel did they use / do they prefer? Why? How many circuits would they typically run for a 3BD/2BA? Etc. FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS! And then follow-ups Qs on the follow-ups As. Take them to the limit of their knowledge (or their ability to BS). And the preferred endpoint is "I don't know" - not you catching their mistake.
For new hires, as well as for doctors, lawyers or engineers I wish to retain, if I can have probing discussion which ends in them saying, "I don't know." then things are looking hopeful. If not, I didn't probe deeply enough, or they never stopped BSing. David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
David, I guess I wasn't talking about that kind of "b.s.ing" (lying about one's qualifications). I was sort of assuming that we're talking about hiring helpers on general construction jobs - since anyone can push a broom or swing an occasional hammer, I mostly care about a person's work ethic, pace, and ability to think ahead. Many times I've listened to people go on about how many year's experience they have at a certain vocation while I thought to myself, "You mean you've been doing it like THAT for years? That's too bad..." Everyone has their own idea about what good work is, and what is acceptable. I remember thinking that I was getting pretty good at mudding and taping, for example, and then I watched a full time taper at work- he was moving twice as fast as I was, making it look easy. Now I know how that job should go, and when I do my own taping, I strive for that. A good worker, in my book, is always looking to learn and improve. A bad worker will learn how to do something one way, and consider themself a master. It's hard to instruct such a "master". A person who resents being shown a better way is a bad worker, will cost you money, and will affect the quality of the job. Truth be told, I'd rather work with someone who's got NO experience but has energy and is eager to learn - If I have to show them how to do everything, I will. At least they'll be doing everything my way. Sure, this takes time. But it is time so much better spent than the time I've spent arguing with some "skilled" workers who see no need for improvement. It's people like that you need to be quick to identify and send home.
I agree. Assessing the veracity of skill or knowledge is easier than assessing work ethic or pride of work attitudes. But aren't the people who stress their skill and talent often the ones who fall short?
What if you ask them about the mistakes they remember most about past jobs? I seem to remember every little thing that didn't look quite right or the first brick wall or first pipe run I did - things that I'd do much, much better now. Do all thoughful craftsman think back like that? Are the bozos the ones who go through life never looking back, truly believing that they always did great work?
So if he can't fess up to past mistakes, is that a helpful red flag?David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Dear 4lorn1:I completely appreciate your point of view, but what I didn't articulate in the first post was the following:The employee in question worked for me for six months. He had done some remodeling in the past, but nothing under someone who's been in the trade awhile. (I've been doing it on my own for five years full-time, but my mother was a GC and has bought/sold houses my entire life.) He was not like some guy fresh off the street. If I wanted to take a guy off the street and teach him for the long term, I'd get a kid from trade school, pay him $6hr. and build him from the ground up fresh. So, there were conflicting work ethics and methods at work here.Concerning electricity: I know you're an electrician, so I'm sure there's a bit of irritation hearing about a contractor wiring regular circuits themselves. Figuring out single pole switches is easy; three-ways a little bit more difficult; four ways even more difficult. I was NOT expecting him to know how to do everything through osmosis. Although I didn't teach him Ohm's law, I did ATTEMPT to show him the concept of power, neutral, ground, stripping six inches worth of wire for the box (instead of his 2") 14 wire is 15amp, 12 is 20 amp. When I tried to show him SLOWLY how to wire a single pole switch leg, explaining that the switch acts like a dam, he was tuning me out. (More times than I can count, I tried to show him how to do things, but he thought he knew everything.) When I showed him that a switch leg's white wire needs to be taped black or shaded black (even though any electrically knowledgeable person would know that white wires don't go to switches) he said why didn't I just answer his question. I wanted him to stop and listen as I went through the entire process, and then quiz him on how to do it. He had been reading a wiring book, and thought he didn't need any instruction. It was less about me not taking the time explain things slowly and completely, and more that he didn't want to listen.In other words: I WAS TRYING TO INVEST HIM FOR THE FUTURE.I lent him money because he comes from a bad background. (His niece stole his ATM card and took $1200 from his checking account and bought a $400 purse even though she's an 18, high school dropout with 2 kids already!) He was having difficulty with his family, but you would think he would have had some respect for the one person in his life trying to help him. Instead he commented to my other employee the day after our fight "I'm not going to be treated like a slave." That shows glaring ingratitude for someone who received nothing but kindness, help, instruction. I believe he was irritated that I paid another employee more money than him $12 to start, where he made $10. This other employee is a friend of the guy I fired, is also black, but is appreciative of everything I do. (My only complaint with him is that he smokes cigarettes like a chimney even though he is also a "True Israelite" who doesn't eat pork, can't wear "mixed garments" (no cotton/polyester), won't work on Saturday, thinks the Apollo mission to the moon is a hoax, won't cook his food in a microwave because of radiation...should I go on?) SO, it's not like I'm an iron fisted, white supremicist who doesn't appreciate diversity.I guess I am completely wrong on the giving of money, but I never expected to get it back, that's why I told him not to worry about repaying it. I have learned a lesson from this situation. The next person I hire hopefully will have a love of the work, will listen to me or else.By the way: The floor levelor I'm talking about requires a precise measurement (6 & 1/2 quarts of water) add to it to attain the proper "self-leveling" properties. I did tell him to put the water in the bucket, but as usual, he wasn't listening. Since you're an electrician, maybe you haven't worked with the same variety of powders (e.g. thinsets, grouts, floor levelers, powdered setting drywall compounds) that RECOMMEND adding powder to the water. Of course, I know since you're one of those trade guys who think NO ONE should do anyone else's trade. Maybe we should poll the tile setters on what's the better way to mix powders....
Edited 4/24/2005 8:44 pm ET by Jack
Several times I've come across people who simply will not do as they are told. I don't know why they are like that. They don't appear, during conversation, to be deliberately contrary but never-the-less, as soon as you turn your back, they are doing something different to what was agreed.
People like that fascinate me. I'd love to be able to understand why they don't want to follow instructions. Is it that they resent being told what to do? Do they think their way is better? Perhaps it's a form of self-destructiveness. They know (maybe conscious, may sub-conscious) that if they keep on doing the wrong thing that they will eventually be fired and then they can go home and get in front of the TV and relax and blame you for their having been fired.
Best thing is to make their wishes come true and get rid of them. Better to work on your own than to put up with that kind of BS
John
Sorry to break this to you Jack-but since you are a nice guy first and a businessman second-there will most certainly be a long line of other nice guys that will take full advantage of your kindness and put you deeper into your pit of debt.
Jarring isn't it?
I'm going to be rough on you here-since I was the same once upon a time.
Hiring friends or anyone is fine-so long as the rules are laid out and mutual respect is in place. Defiance, beligerance, not following instructions repeatedly is simply not acceptable. One warning-bye bye.
When it comes to lazy people stretching a job to increase their share of the cut... (which I believe to be true in this guy's case), nip it in the bud.
There are good people who simply are not suited to certain jobs. If you can move them to a different position that suits them better and makes them productive-do it. If not, get them off your site.
If what you do makes you money-continue. If anything you do loses you money, like picking an employee up every day, feeding someone as well as paying them handsomely all the while screwing everything up... Bye bye.
I had my own charity project. Legally blind carpenter who showed up about half the time due to drug complications, who never had any money and couldn't drive since he was blind. There's been a wide assortment of drug survivers and alcoholics who start well then delve back into their old ways leaving you to look like a jerk. Even had one guy who was dyslexic and didn't bother to mention it. Try reading blue-prints and getting the dimensions right. First job was a $3500.00 pergola which he built exactly the wrong size...
Charity does nothing to make people self sufficient. Human nature makes us rely on previous sources of food for future sources of food. Thus, the feeding frienzy around "Nice Guy Contractors".
Sometimes sending someone packing is the kindest and most generous thing you can do for you and them. If they stay in this unproductive capacity-they may miss out on opportunities that actually fit their skill set.
Now... blow ups on construction sites.
Unprofessional, unbecoming and a good way to lose a good client. Someone gets out of control-have them escorted off the site. You as the manager are to keep your cool no matter what happens. This is your greatest failure in this episode.
We all tend to do the easiest thing... As a manager often what we need to do is not the path of least resistance-but it makes us more productive and a better manager to do the right thing.
Good Luck Jack-sorry for busting your balls here, but you need it.
ps, I still respect you for being a nice guy...
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
You have learned much through this voyage.... now what will you do with it?
First, being nice is not a requirement of life... let alone a qualification for being a boss. Being nasty is not a qualification either. Being "professional" is.
A professional plans out training in advance and clears his schedule to do this training. A professional does not involve himself in "feel good" attempts at "helping". A professional does not insult the efforts and work of his good employees by accepting inferior work from anyone. A professional lays out the ground rules up-front. A professional takes action when sub-par performance is seen. A professional evaluates any person considered for a trainee position for the skills required to be a good trainee (beyond being an old friend).
Emotions have no place in business. I applaud you for wanting to help your friend. If you want to be effective in that help... you teach him how to overcome whatever has held him back in the past. Lack of a "break" is not what holds people back. "Breaks" are created by the individual... just some people don't know how to create them.
If given the scenario that you described... I would have taken a different tact. I would have volunteered to enroll him in a work-training program (assuming that I do not have the time to train him how to be a worker first... THEN a construction worker). There are plenty of programs out there to assist people who WANT to learn how to make their own "breaks". There are ways to do it without spending a dime of their own money. Once enrolled... they learn how to be a worker... how to assimilate into a workforce. This is the first step to a career. They then must be taught HOW to learn the skills for a career.
Once the individual has learned how to be a worker... and has learned HOW to learn.... then, and only then... the person is ready to learn a trade (career, whatever). THAT is the point at which you can bring the person into your company to be trained (with a defined training program and the resources dedicated to teach the person).
I have seen many many situations where companies do not understand the process of training someone for a "career-path". They hire the person and expect the OJT to be enough. OJT is great... but cannot substitute for a solid foundation of HOW to be a worker and HOW to learn.
Look at it like building a house. Sometimes... all that is required is digging on the existing ground and pouring the footers. Sometimes, it is necessary to do additional engineering BEFORE the footings can be poured. Sometimes, it is necessary to drill piers to bedrock to be able to build. Regardless... it is imperative that a good foundation be laid for the entire house to be able to be built.
Are there exceptions? Sure... I have seen houses that have been built on flimsy foundations survive and fulfill their lifespans with just a few problems. But I have seen many more that have been built on a flimsy foundation, fall apart and become money-pits.
People are no different. If you are lucky and everything falls in place... lack of a solid foundation for a career can be overcome by sheer luck and a little creativity. But don't count on it... especially when it is YOUR money that is being invested (in the new worker).
Next time... give them the benefit of knowledge in HOW to prepare themselves to gain and learn a career. Direct him/her to resources to build a good foundation... THEN build the house (career) on that solid foundation.
Edited 4/24/2005 1:23 pm ET by Rich from Columbus
I think one of my favorite phrases would fit in here well ....
"I'm here to make money, not to make friends"
useful in lotsa situations.
I first heard if from an old sales manager ... used to ask us how many deals ya closed today .. then would say ...
Just remember ... if U ain't selling ... yer just visiting.
And I'm not paying U to make visits.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
"If you're not a Democrat before you're thirty you're heartless, if you're not a Republican after thirty you're an idiot."--never heard that one before! Cracked me up...
It is a different world down there... Entirely foreign to me here.
Up here it goes like... Redneck or non-redneck, then it's subdivided into Philthy Stupid Rednecks-and Civilized Un-Brain Damaged Rednecks. (Elmvale Ontario). I guess you could say I am racist against philthy stupid rednecks and their "yer nott fum around here" bit. Doesn't matter a pinch to me whether they are lawyers, doctors or politicians-I still despise them.
What I mean by racism being foreign to me is that there were those in school who were racist... I associated with people which I found intriguing... didn't matter the heritage. People were the same, different cultures add interest to an otherwise boring suburban upbringing.
I know you will turn it around Jack, you are no failure-if you had become irate and upset-then we'd all have known that for definite!
Be Well Jack!
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Jack, great post. Been there, done some of that. Never again.
Get the book "First Break All the Rules".
Read the book.
Implement the ideas.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Well Jack, believe it or not I found the last pocket of them... It's changing slowly.
My friend from the UK was in Orillia just down the road, minding his business in a small local bar when a patron began to have words with the local barman.
"This is a redneck town-and we're not changing fer Nothin or Nobody" was pretty much exactly what he said before he picked a fight with my friend.
I'll laugh about this place later, but for now I am dreaming of finishing this project house and clearing out back to civilization.
You haven't heard of the corruption up here? We had a PM sue the country a few years back to prevent a financial investigation. The latest is the sponsorship scandal... worst part is-no one cares. Pacifist Socialist Idiots.
Another day,
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!