Here’s my situation. I hired a contractor with a signed, written contract to install 4 recessed lights @ $100/each, for a total of $400.
I came back home to find 6 recessed lights installed.
Now, I don’t mind the extra lights, I actually think they look good. Now, had he given me a call and said “Gee, looking at the situation I really think you want 6 lights in here, not 4” I might have gone for it – I don’t know.
But, what I really object to is him just going ahead, on his own, and “selling” me more than I asked for. So, what’s the fair thing to do here? Certainly I’m within my rights to pay him no more than $400. That’s what our signed contract says. But, that seems a bit harsh. However, I also don’t feel like paying him $600, because that’s not what I agreed to. Should I pay him the materials cost for the two extra cans, but he has to “eat” his extra labor?
Replies
thats what I would do.
Paying for material only seems more than fair to me. You didn't ask for them so I have no idea what would have made him do that. Just decided the didn't look right to him? DanT
If they look better and you are happier with the six, then pay him $600 and be happy that you hired someone with enough initiative and intelligence to look out for your job and do the right thing for you.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Have to disagree with you on that.
Imagine if you ordered a 4 boxes of nails from a supplier and they sent you 6
or you took your truck to get the outside waxed, and they detailed the inside as well without your permission or ok.
What would you do.
Look, I really kinda don't give a sjit, but for the sake of typing - In the first scenario - If I ordered 4 boxes of common nails, and the yard figured out that I would get a better product using galv ring shanks, and it upped the price I would be happy that they were looking out for me.
In the second - If after they were done waxing and the wheels made the truck look like hell, so they polish the wheels, I would be more than happy to pay the extra than to drive around for a few days and then have to take it back to them again to pay more anyway.
In typical BT fasion, we don't really know the whole story. I personally don't let $200 ruin my day. Especially when it's $200 dollars spent on $200 worth of upgrades.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
look, I really sorta don't give a sht to take your attitude either.
You want my no-nonsence responce to your post, It's stupid.. Why the hell should someone pay for something they neither asked for, nor approved.
If you think you're entitled to go into someone's house and do work they didn't ask for simply because it gave them a better product, then expect to get paid more, you're a fool.
Ok Cag. Look, around here if you want to get along you will need to be more direct and let people really know what you think. We are all tired of guessing. DanT
I'm in a real piss asz mood today
Must be the day. I was hateful all morning.......and was working alone! Now I just hate some things. Ahhh, it get's better tommorow. DanT
did you ever get an e-mail I sent you the other day?
If not, check your spam folder it came from here responding to a post sent via e-mail, I believe... May have also been through my hotmail account, I can't remember at the moment.
"I'm in a real piss asz mood today"
Me too, dammit!
hee heee, not really. Just looks like fun.
But anyway, it appears nobody here actually read the reason he did the extra two cans. It was right there in the post. He stepped through the ceiling and repaired it by adding a can, then another can to ballance it out.
I've made mistakes on jobs. I fix it and eat the cost. I think the contractor should be happy the customer isn't telling him to take them out and patch the holes.
Honor the contract. That's what it's there for.
--------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
Edited 3/26/2008 10:23 pm by Ted W.
I fix it and eat the cost. I think the contractor should be happy the customer isn't telling him to take them out and patch the holes.
I feel for the guy, but you pretty much said it all. $400.
Maybe he did not step through the ceiling but drilled/ cut the first hole in the wrong spot. Either way it is pretty weird I think a talk is in order, You either split the difference (as I said earlier) or pay just 400. Can't be the only sparky in town or can he?Wallyo
Let me see here!! You Like the extra lights, He thought six would be better, Is he a creep or did look out for you? There many more things worse than this that you can get your painties in a bundle about (trust me I know) Dont sweat the small stuff!!! Tell him how you feel and see what he says. Make you decision on that.
If he's a decent guy, family man, working man- I would just pay him.
My 2 cents, Lou C
Now you're in for it ;)
Thanks for the cover Lou.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Jhole, ''Now Im in for it"
What I do? Wasn't me. I swear!!!
-Lou
So have you called him yet? I bet he stays close to his cell phone just like you do."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
But, but, what if he points out the fact that he actually said - I'll see what I can do to put four in there for you for $400, but I wont really know what I'm dealling with until I dig into it"
Then when he actually has the opportunity to explain that spacing the lights with 4 would be virtually imposible, due to joist spacing, and other mechanical issues he did the right thing and put in the six........
And went ahead and charged the same as he would have known going into the project even though he had to switch gears and pull off the project to please the customer....... (little did he know) .
Now the customer likes the end result - but has no intension of paying for the process, or finding out what all was involved in giving a product that he is pleased with.
Probably better to just send $400, keep a low profile, tell all his friends that he got screwed, feel superior because he stiffed the worker $200, and be ignorant.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Explain to me a situation where it would be easier to install 6 cans instead of 4?
It doesn't exist.
The guy did get screwed.
I'm with WallyO...the guy accidentally cut 6 holes---or cut one wrong and had to balance it out. Then decided he'd pretend he "thought" it was 6 lights all along. But then how did he charge you $200 "extra"? How was it billed---as an 'additional charge', or as the contract amount?Have you asked him WHY he did this??? If not, why not?And $600 for 6 basic can lights in the same room on the same circuit/switch leg is a bit of an outrageous price, IMHO.
"Explain to me a situation where it would be easier to install 6 cans instead of 4?"
Old farmhouse, two-story, oak joists, on irregular centers, depending on overall lenghth of run, I'd much rather make more frequent jumps through joists than try to bore through 3 or 4 blind to reach the next can, or blast out a buch of fragile plaster. Do it without any DW damage and be out at the end of the day, instead of telling HO to get someone to patch up the carnage or having to go back two or three trips , with drying time, to fix it.
"It doesn't exist."
It sure as hell does
"The guy did get screwed."
So far the only guy who is out anything is the sparky. The HO has the lights and the money.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
"Explain to me a situation where it would be easier to install 6 cans instead of 4?"
when U lay out for 4 ...
2 of them fall right under a ceiling joist.
shift the layout to make for 6 ...
and new layout doesn't have any wood in the way.
happens all the time.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
that said ....
I'd pay him for the agreed upon 4 and take the 2 extra as a "tip"!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
OK. I'm cool with that.
I can see both sides here. Now we have to drag out of the OP why did the sparky do this - was there a good reason?
Now we know that the sparky actually did charge $600. That helps fill in the story.
This has nothing to do with me being a fool, I can do that without an internet forum to prove it. ;)
I am being the devils advocate here. There are times that I will do the right thing, simply based on the fact that it is the right thing to do - without a HO approval, willing to do it for free, if that is what it comes down to. Because I know it is the right thing to do. And as much as they own the house - I am the professional and care enough to listen to their wishes, and will give them a superior product.
My name is on the product - the end result - I make it as perfect as I can for them.
I can think of scenarios where I have done the same thing as his sparky did, for the betterment of the end result. Laid it out there, and it worked. Twenty two years and counting.
Handshakes mostly, for being a " contractor " I don't know why I fall into that catagory . YMMV.
PS. Not trying to be flippant, just don't care. On the big scale of things this seems non-existant. And asking the entire internet to comment seems - over the top. Especially when the telephone could have been picked up, and this could have been resolved in minutes.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Actually no phone call was required. Put in 4 lights as requested, get paid and move on.
The reason this is here is because someone failed to do the job they were hired to do, and now wants more money.
Where does this end? If you hire a plumber to install a chrome faucet and he thinks a 24k gold one would look so much nicer do you pay him? You want hardwood in the dining room but the installer thinks it would look good in the kitchen and living room too? You want a room painted white but the painter thinks sage green will look nicer?
Just like installing 2 more lights this is all not up to the installer but the homeowner....
This ain't your house.... do the job you were asked to do and move on.
Well I may have reacted a bit strong to your comments.
Like I said to Dan, I've been a foul mood all day and pretty much looking for a reason to go off.
So accept my apologies for calling you a fool earlier.
I've been in the same situation where doing something extra I wasn't asked to do made a big difference, I always try to get their permission and discuss cost. I'll eat before I ask more un-approved money in the situation above though.
you're right $200 isn' worth much of a sweat it's the thought of telling someone what's going to happen or just doing it and doing it I think is wrong.
either way, I'd bet dollars to peso's they split the charge.
and beat goes on...........
No, I didn't recieve it. I delete the spam without looking at it so if it came in that way I would never know it. Try [email protected]. Thats the one I use for business so I will always see it! I edited it after reading Teds post. Take out the no spam. DanT
Edited 3/27/2008 5:44 am ET by DanT
Hey dan, not a good idea posting your email address in a public forum. That's live bait for spam bots. I know from experience. ;)--------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
It's cool.
Im bettin' there's actually more to this, but like you say... beat goes on.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I carry my cellphone with me all the time. No reason not to get my approval. Seems pretty audacious to go ahead and expand the job by 50% without asking me. If asked, I'm not sure I would have paid the extra $200 for the two cans. I like them, sure, but everything is a tradeoff. In this situation, he made the decision for me - and I don't really appreciate that.
I carry my cellphone with me all the time.
So have you called him yet?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
No, I'm curious to see first what he asks for.
So, at this point you don't even know if he's going to charge you anything extra?
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Have you asked him why he installed 6? Remind him of the agreed scope, and ask him what he thinks is fair.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
That's it right there.
Peach full,easy feelin'.
If there is a reason other then "they look nice"... like he would have left you with 2 holes to repair from running wires, which would require patching and painting costing well above $200 I'd pay the $600.00.
If it's just because they "look nice"??? He's due materials only. If he doesn't like, it tell him to remove them and patch the ceiling.
Nope, nothing like that. Four would have looked just fine.
What's reasonable materials for two cans? The cans we have are the basic ones they sell in "contractor packs" at HD for $7 each. I'm not sure if that includes the trim or not, and doesn't include the bulb. $10 / light? $20?
100.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Could be it was cheaper to buy 6 lights (contractors pack?)
I would guess the cans, the trims, the wire to connect, and the bulb might be half that cost of $100 per can."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
Find out why he installed the two extra cans.
"Because I thought it would look better."
and
"I did what? Oh ####!"
...would elicit different replies from me. One is intentional. The other is a mistake. The first response? I'd be irritated that he changed the scope without my approval and he didn't even try to contact me. If you are going to keep the extra lights I'd just pay him the $400. Or if the extra lights are nasty, I'd pay him the $400 less the cost to pull and repair the holes for the two extra lights.
The second response, I'd be irritated that he made the mistake and maybe pay him ~$450 (like the others wrote, materials but no extra labor) if you were going to keep the two extra lights, or $400 less the removal and repair if you want them to be removed.
Mongo
Your jumping here a bit wait till you get the bill as someone said a 6 pak of lights costs not much more then 4, the job may have gone quicker he may charge just the 400 or a bit above for the extra wire.
If you get a bill for 600 I think a I am happy you went the extra mile but I did ask for 4 lets splits the difference and make it 500 can you live with that? let us know how it turns out.
Wallyo
Edited 3/26/2008 1:43 pm ET by wallyo
I got the bill. It was for $600.
We are chris crossing. Take a look at my edit.Wallyo
Edited 3/26/2008 1:51 pm ET by wallyo
This guy is overstepping it. The true extra cost is not $200. He was already there and and the extra work/materials would not amount to anything like $200. I think you need to draw his attention to that, and ask him for a revised invoice.
Sounds like an extra $100 would be reasonable all round
JohnIf my baby don't love me no more, I know her sister will.
Do you yet know why he installed the two extra cans?
I hate these mysterys...
I'm not as funny as I think I am
the butler did it.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
In the parlor, with a pipe wrench?
I'm not as funny as I think I am
game room with a no gaurd Makita CS...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I DID NOT! <G>
You got the bill, now you need to find out if he made honest mistake,6 instead of 4. If he did and you point this out, he may immediatelyreduce or eliminate the extra charge. Let's not hate---prematurely!
No mistake. He listed it as an extra charge.
$400 + $200 for 2 additional recessed lights.
There's no "hating" here, just trying to be fair to contractors, but also fair to myself. I realize work may be a bit slow right now, but that doesn't mean someone can just decide to do work you didn't commission them to do.
I'm dealing with a similar situation with another contractor right now as well. It seems to be an epidemic.
If the estimate you got was for $400 for 4 lights, and the agreement you signed with him said the same. Then you are in the right technically to not pay him for the extra lights and work.
However, things to consider: will you need him to do more work on your house sometime in the future? Will you be hiring any other contractors that might be friends with him in which case your name could be passed around as a PIA to deal with?
Talk to him and ask him what happened to the original agreement that had the scope of work detailed on it that you agreed to. If he is cool about it, then consider offering him the cost of the materials. If he's "adiment" that you have to pay him $600 and nothing less.... then I wouldn't pay him.
Basically, it all comes down to what you have in writing that is signed how much you value the working relationship.
ThanksBarney
Your wife wasn't home when this happened was she??
The wife! thats was my exact thought. Had that happen once with a pellet stove that got upgraded for about 125.00?.
Not the answer in this case.
Have you asked him about it? His answer would determine my response.
jt8
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."-- Mark Twain
ya, been long enough to get some fresh data on the deal.
What's with that?
Peach full,easy feelin'.
So have you called and talked with him yet?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Your point is waaaaay to valid for this conversation. ;)Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Possible honest mistake: He thought you asked for 6. You were probably paying eneough for 6? Not that I know the costs. Removal would just be a poor option for all, too much trouble. $400.
Don't even call him. Just staple the cheque to a fax of the contract. Highlight $400.
Edited 3/26/2008 9:47 pm by GOLDENBOY
Huh. In my experience as a project manager, there's usually an issue of additionals not being completed, because they were never formalized properly and put into process.Anyways, here are my theories:- There's a very real possibility that this guy had a brain fart and genuinely thought you wanted two more, as strange as that may sound. This is actually the first thing that sprang to my mind. Sometimes people make weird mental errors when they don't review the paperwork, and don't think they need to.- He bought the lites in a six-pack from a big box and figured 'what the heck.'Either way, the approach is simple: call him. He doesn't have a leg to stand on. If he's gracious you'll get your extra two lites gratis, and if he's a jerk you can just stiff him anyway. If he's trying to cheat you, he needs to get shafted. And if he's sloppy and careless enough to deviate from the contract like that, this can only serve as reminder as to why details matter!
$600 for 6 cans? What are they 100' in the air over a gator infested moat?
How much would you do them for?Are you a licensed electrician?We've paid between $65-85 for standard 6" incandescent IC cans. CFL, air tight, unique trims, etc. all cost more. Maybe not $100 per can but within shooting distance.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
In our area 80-100 is the going rate for cans unless it is a new construction package and then they are 20ish less. Custom trim is more. DanT
I'd ask him to re-read the signed proposal and have him tell you the why.
Did he comment on drywall damage in his proposal? Was there any?
If he put in the extra 2 to get it wired without patching, then $200 is a bargain and forethought on his part and I would pay the extra but tell him not to ever spend my money again without my permission if he wants to work with me again.
Otherwise, ask him what is fair!
This thread has moved up to #1 but just for the day!
I personally wouldn't care what others thought about how many can lights needed to be installed, if its my home you put in how many I want, simple as that. I assume some discussion about the amount of lights took place?
I don't have any opinion on how much you pay the guy, don't really care as long as its not going to cost me anything.
I would like to hear what happens if/when you call the guy, don't know if that's been suggested or not. But please do so, as quickly as possible, I think there are a lot of guys on here that must be bored shidless waiting for the answer!
Doug
Well if this isn't like the 2004 ALDS. The tension and excitement is just unbelievable.
For those of you just joining:
I'm doing a gut renovation of a family room. I executed a signed, written contract with an electrician to handle the electric for the renovation (outlets, recessed lighting), etc. The contract included four recessed lights.
At his own discretion, the electrician decided to put in 6 recessed lights. He didn't ask me. He didn't ask any other member of my household. He didn't step through the ceiling. It wasn't required by code. He wasn't asked to by the homeowner's association. He didn't misunderstand me. He didn't overhear a conversation with my neighbor where I said "Gee, I really like a lot of light". He just decided, on his own to install an extra recessed light in front of a bookcase, and another one at the entry way to the room because he thought it would look better.
He then proceeded to send me a bill for the extra lights he had installed. The lights don't look bad. I don't think they are necessary. Had he asked me beforehand, I may have agreed to the extra lights for the extra money - really impossible to say at this point.
While I do appreciate that the electrician was looking to make the room better, it is my house, and therefore he should have asked me before putting in additional lights - let alone charging me extra for work I didn't ask him to do.
What's the resolution? There is none yet. He wasn't that apologetic about installing the extra lights, seemed confused why he should apologize for putting in something that turned out okay. His feeling was that he was just wiring up the room to look good, and then later realized that he had only included 4 lights in his estimate, and therefore had to charge me extra.
I told him I didn't feel obliged to pay him for work I didn't ask for, but that I would think about it. I think I will offer to split the difference with him. The lights do have some value, but I didn't agree to purchase them, so there should be some consequences for him.
The lights do have some value, but I didn't agree to purchase them, so there should be some consequences for him.
There ya go, give him $500 or whatever and move on to the next ambiguous question!
Move along folks, nothing to see here anymore
Doug
2004 ALDS. don't know what that is? Baseball? I'm a national leaguer so don't recall who was in the 04 division series.
Edited 3/29/2008 2:35 pm ET by DougU
Arguably the greatest 7 games of baseball in our generation, well at least the last 4.
NatherIf we are talking plain Halo cans with basic trims you got about 22.00 a light so 132.00 for 6 lets round it up to 170 wire, sw and etc. It would take me 4 hours to buy the things and hang them in an open room no drywall at 65.00 an hour that is 260 plus the 170 = 430.00. This assumes he provides the trim. One last item we are talking a romex job not conduit? Yes I am not an electrician, but I think the job could be done in four hours, I have seen electricians hang cans most could do it in two.Given these facts, and yeah people would say I have no right to tell someone how much profit he is to make, I think 600 is excessive. So you;1 tell him to tear the extra 2 out you are only paying 400.
2 tell him the 2 extra look good but at 600 you would of gone else where but you will give 500.
3 Send 400.00 and never call the guy again, wait till he calls you send a copy with 4 circled.The ball is in your court.Wallyo
Edited 3/29/2008 2:44 pm ET by wallyo
Yes, Halo cans, plain trim, romex not conduit.
I have no worthwhile opinion about what you should pay this guy, But... if you want to keep using the guy as your electrician, you should pay him. Otherwise pay him the $400 and tell him goodbye.
Trust is a two way street. Either one of you can break trust and it is very hard to repair. I won't work with people I don't trust. Sometimes this means I have to pay for something that didn't go my way but I have decided that the price is worth it. Sometimes I have to fire somebody. Neither choice is pleasant.
Most of you guys replying act like you have never worked with electricians before.There are at least 2 things electricians are guaranteed to do on a job:1. whine or ignore you if asked to clean their debris2. Change boxes or cans on a whim and without asking, just because they THINK it works better, no matter what was decided on the pre-rough walk through with the clientselectricians are the divas of the construction worldno mystery here
Barry E-Remodeler
whine or ignore you if asked to clean their debris
Man no shid! We are doing a lake front house that's all T&M, for us and the other trades.
Tell the electricians to clean up their mess and they give you such grief, "you want us to clean up at $50 an hour" - hell yes, we charge $54 so how does it make sense that we do it for ya for more money!
Doug
yep.Mine always says "that's what laborers are for" I keep telling him to hire one if he wants.
Barry E-Remodeler
You need to run your jobs better. That is a silly, at best, generalization, and has no merit or reflaction on anyone other than you. Do your homework and you'll have less problems with your counterparts. Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
View Image
Barry E-Remodeler
"seemed confused why he should apologize for putting in something that turned out okay"This guy probably needs a $200 lesson to help prevent him from making the same mistake again. I'm kind of tickled how you've become the culprit and the electrician has become the victim despite the properly worded written contract. If I were a guessing man, I'd guess that there was some language in the contract that clearly specified that "no extra work will be done without a written change order". I think that pretty well sums up who is right and who is wrong in this "scope creep". If you were not available by phone during this installation, I might be inclined to want to hear the other side of the story from the electrician. If you were available by phone, then there is no other side of the story....the guy simply should have made the phone call before he made the decision. I've often "risked" these decisions in my practice but I've always done so with a logical risk vs analysis. In this case, he decided to skip a one minute phone call and risk his extra $200. Personally, I think that is bad business and bad risk management. If the phone call was a four hour trip to a phone booth and twenty dollars worth of gas....I might be inclined to just "do it". Personally, I wouldn't want any extra recessed lights. If I had ordered four, I probably would be requesting that the extras be removed. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
You are basing your reply on what Nathar is feeding you.
Don't know if you've read the whole thread or not, but the scope of this project has changed about four times in this one thread.
OP LIKES the extra lights.
Sounding like the contract was to do a larger scope of wiring, which included 4 cans. - Not that it was a contract to only install 4 cans.
This has " Ignorance of buyer / HO being his own GC " written all over it. Not that there is anything wrong with HO/GC. Just that they need to know that being the guy who calls the shots needs to be to guy to pay the piper.
IMO the ball was dropped here by someone who is playing out of his league, ( flipping, reno'ing, building ) finding out what is really involved in the process, and now blaming the people doing what he asked.
The latest information that we are allowed to be privy to is that he hired the electrician to wire the whole room. Sounds to me like there is no print, or plan. The electrician, in his proposal included 4 cans. ( alot like an allowance) Cans were $100 per unit. When sparky got on site and started to figure out spacing, joists, and other pertinant info he felt it was best to lay 6 cans in the space(s) allowed.
He is the culprit for a reason. If I came here as a 20 yr. experienced contractor, you would rip me a new one for the same reasons.
1) bad planning
2)bad communications
3) bad understanding of the scope of project at the outset
4) bad follow up with the sub
5) inabilaty to understand how construction/remodelling actually takes place
6) ...I'm getting tired of typing.
This whole stiuation sucks and falls clearly on the shoulders of the GC!!!!!!Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I've read the entire thread. The most critical words I read were: "we executed a signed agreement that specified 4 cans". End of discussion. I'll agree that there could be something to argue if the buyer was not available by phone. Did the contractor dial his number to ask for the change order? If not, I don't feel any sympathy for him. If the contract stated that the electrician had the option of adding extras for design purposes and specified the charge per unit, then the OP would owe. It's up to the contractor, who made the proposal to cover his bases. The buyer is not the expert here even though you're trying to pin that on him.Should an electrician hit up an elderly lady for the extra 50% because shes "not a competent GC?" Like I said, I've done many things at a risk to my own finances. I always calculate the risk vs reward before I make the decision. In this case, the risk was several minutes on the cell phone vs losing $200 if the buyer didn't approve the unapproved change order. Personally, I'd make the call on the cell. If no one answered, he'd get four cans unless it really wasn't going to cost me much in terms of time or materials. If the cans come in six packs for the same as buying 4 individuals, then it's possible that the electrician is only out the wire and time, which should be a relatively small loss in the entire scheme of things. Perhaps a better way for the electrician to approach the request for extra payment would have been to heavily discount the extras in a humble request. Instead he opted to go for full price, which includes full profit....but didn't even offer a quantity discount. Like I said...the gall of him! Tell me....what's the purpose of signing a written contract for four cans at $400 if the written word means nothing? How do you rectify that? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I think Nathar has left the building.
What is meant by 'scope creep' in the title?
Get a Peach full,easy feelin'.
Something to do with the OP, I guess; you know, CREPT IN, CRAPPED, and CREPT OUT.Greg
I think the OP said enough. Theres no reason he has to chirp in and get between every posters opinion. Just remember the words "we had a signed agreement for four cans". Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Its a guy that raids the medicine cabinet in the middle of the night for fresh breath.
I appreciate your thought out and well stated reply.
I disagree, but that's ok.
I still feel that there is info that is either up to our collective interpretation or completely left out as it pertains to the communication of the contract or the scope of the contract itself.
No sense in hashing out a moot point.
If I may raise the devil's question - were the 4 lights included as an allowance,as part of a larger scope and bid? Or was the contract to only install 4 cans? From inferrence, I am understanding that the scope of this project was larger than just these lights and the OP is nit picking this one item as some reason to bolster his dissatifaction in the realization of his inability to run a sizeble project.
>The most critical words I read were: "we executed a signed agreement that specified 4 cans". <
Was that the contract, or was that a line item of a larger contract ( as an inclusive allowance ) to rewire an entire project? A project which included the verbal affirmment of the OP to " do the right thing"?
Even though the OP claims to be a learned indivual, he seems to be skirting the important information here. Could it be that he is shy, coy, or knows that he mishandled this situation and is lookig for affirmation from strangers who he can throw half of the info to and get his desired outcome to feel better about his desision to meet his own budget at the cost of the people who are tyring to give him what he asked them to do?
Guess we'll never know.
>Tell me....what's the purpose of signing a written contract for four cans at $400 if the written word means nothing? How do you rectify that?<
I think that you are correct in stating that - if that was the truth. I have a funny feeling that that is not the real world scenario here. ( as eluded to by the OP in subsequent posts ) ( the scope here is much larger than 4 cans).
I rectify it as an allowance, that an inexperienced person would make a big issue out of.
If it were just a 4 can install I would go either way on this. Something aint right here.
What I'm reading here, and in other posts, is a guy who can't tell if a saw blade is sharp, stating that a qualified electrician screwed him. All to save $200 for lights that he actually likes.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Probably the most worthwhile thing we can all do at this point is drop the whole thing.This isn't a tribunal.
The only information we have is the half-baked, convoluted series of posts from the OP. maybe he is just a bad communicator. maybe his last statement is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. If so, Jim is right.So no sense sticking around and arguing what ifs. There is nothing to be gained from here on out.
And there are people from all areas in life that are best remembered for purpose of avoiding wasting time on when we find them to create less than fulfilling relationships.But I thought it was all quite entertainingCurtain please
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> And "j" bows to the queen.
> exits stage left. Knowing that his uber consciense knows best.
So long ;)Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
J sorry meant my post to all not just you, I will delete and repost.Wallyo
102722.161 in reply to 102722.160
This whole thing has almost been as good as luke and Laura's wedding. For those that are wondering what in H E double Hockey sticks is he talking about here is a link to fill you in.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_Spencer_and_Laura_WebberWallyo
My God Wally, that goes back a ways!
Doug
Doug just was hoping someone got a smile out of it. Was a young lad in college at the time I was not into it but I think that day became the largest case of class cutting in university history, need to remember no one had a vcr or computer in their dorm rooms. So excuse for a party.Wallyo
With GH we also had Sally the transvestite hit man and the search for the left-handed boy.This thread pales in comparison!
Ok, so I've been enjoying this without getting involved, but what the h--l. You just said he only included four lights "in his estimate". I assume you meant in his contracted fixed bid, right?
Say it was a T&M contract with an estimate, and he found (for any reason) that it was going to cost more than the estimate to do the four lights, and that he could do six for about the same (badly estimated) price. To me, that's different from a fixed price bid scenario.
I wouldn't hire him again either way; but I'd pay him the extra for the T&M contract, and I wouldn't for the fixed price bid. But you didn't really mean estimate, right? Or did you?
k
Sorry, he signed a contract. Did more than was in the contract, and then asked for a change order - after the fact - to amend the original contract.
Change orders always attach/amend the original contract.
You're a real piece of work.
You better be damn sure that his original scope of four lights wasn't an allowance.
You don't sideline on "flip this house" on tv do you?
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Right. That's what I thought (and what you said earlier, just checking). FWIW, I'd pay him $400, but I wouldn't lose any respect if you payed more, if you feel it's not worth the inevitable argument. Life is short, after all.
k
Jeff you need to go to post 70 it was finally reveled there that this was a gut job open ceiling.
Here's my scenario - he stepped through the ceiling when he was in the attic. To fix the hole, he put in another can ! Then he had to put in a 6th one to balance the first goof !
Greg
I think your approach would be fair
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
http://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
I cant imagine a situation where I would just put in two extra anything without discussing it first with the HO. If I did, I would probably be resolved to not get any extra pay for the unauthorized work.
As far as treading lightly cause you may use this guy again, without a real good reason for the extras i'd never use him again.
This seems (on the surface) so ridiculous that I cant believe this is even a thread.
I would liken this to driving along and finding a house in need of a roof, installing a roof then knocking on the door with a bill.
Thats what I was thinking too. I don't like working with crazy people and I'd think this guy was a nut! I once came home and my MIL had decided that my flower bed in the back of the house needed some shrubs. She bought and installed them and then wondered why I was angry. HELLO!!! Would she like it if I went to her house and painted her living room purple and installed a black light? I would not pay this guy anything extra and we might even end up talking about having him pay for the damages if his "looks better" didn't mesh with my wishes. This guy needs a lesson in business and respect. The client ordered four and four is what should be there. I might even consider asking him for payment on the energy used by the extra wattage for the next fifty years. If there is a attic above, I'd want the wasted energy dollars. When I was done calculating the guy might owe me his firstborn! The gall of some of these guys! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
It all comes down to two things ... communication and trust. At some point, you'll need to hand him the keys, walk away, and pray the result is what you promised for.
Lighting is a classic case. What one person likes, another hates - and the effect desired varies greatly.
For example, I once had a customer complain his kitchen needed more lights, it looked 'cave like.' Looking at his architect-designed kitchen, I saw that there was LOTS of light on the counter tops, yet the place did 'look' dark. The cause? The exclusive use of recessed lights. They lit up what was under them, but shed little light on the walls, and none on the ceiling. The problem was solved simply by replacing a few of the trims with a different style.
Another recent job also involved recessed lights. this time, the main reason was to light up some buffet tables .... so I placed the lights over the tables - rather than spacing them evenly over the ceiling area. While the lighting distribution seemed a bit 'goofy' during construction, once the tables were in place, the 'uneven' lighting was no longer an issue.
If you like the result - pay the guy, and feel good about it. If the effect is not quite what you wanted, review your instructions to him, and find where you failed to get something across. If the results are contrary to your instructions, or new problems arise (like overloaded dimmers) ... you need to caution him about such initiatives.
Mainly, though ... there's no point getting worked up over details.
If you like the result - pay the guy, and feel good about it.
I agree, but $600 is too much. To add two lights doesn't need to cost that much. An extra $100 for the two extra lights is plenty
JohnIf my baby don't love me no more, I know her sister will.
How can you say that?
You don't know the guy's cost of doing business nor how long it took or how complicated it might have been.
If it takes an hour to cut the whole, run the wire, install the light and trim that would be $70.00 for our electrian plus the cost of material and mark-up get's you pretty close to $100.00 bucks if not above depending on the style of trim etc.
Because most of the guy's costs were already covered by the first four. By the time it came to 5 and 6 he was already there, had allthe tools and materials on hand, the power shut off etc etc.
So there is no way that the extra 2 should be charged at the same rate. The more you buy of anything the cheaper the unit rate
JohnIf my baby don't love me no more, I know her sister will.
This was a gut renovation, so practically a new construction situation. So, the extra work would have been the cost of the cans themselves, and whatever it takes to wire up one light. All the cans are on the same switch, same circuit. No hole cutting involved.
Look, could you just let us have all the imformation instead of what you feel like doling out as you see fit?
Nevermind, stiff him, congratulations.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Nather you are feeding us along here peace meal the game is getting old I am with Jhole on this. Then again I think its MRS Plum in the dining room with the pipe wrench.
I got tired of the game a while back...
Maybe the contractor had to guess if it was 4 or 6?
Got a building problem?Go to Heck with it!
Yeah, wonderin' what the GC has to say about this - but I think I know the answer.
Now that we find out that it's all gutted/exposed - I find it funny that he got screwed for $400 for 4 can lights in an exposed scenario. Thought it was remodel, but then why wouldn't I with the wealth of background info I read. ;)Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Have you asked the guy why he did it yet?
Did you call him yet and ask why he did it?
Hey Nathar why don't you give Mongo the phone number so he can call the sparky. Either that or give him his meds back, he's getting restless.
Why haven't you called hi yet and ask him why he did it?
Would you please call him and ask him why he did it? I can;t believe no one has told you to do that yet.
Hey, does anyone else besides me think that he should call the guy and ask him why he did it?
Hey, separate from the NCAA, you;re creating your own friggin' March Madness because you haven;t called the guy yet. Why not?
Wow, this post has been going on for a couple of days and I can;t believe that no one recommended you give your electrician a love tap via cellphone and ask him why he installed the two extra lights.
In case you misplaced his number, it's 1-800-TWO-CANS.
Edited 3/28/2008 1:01 am ET by Mongo
You know, now that you have all those extra lumens shining on you, I'd think your now bright enough to know you should call the guy.
Edited 3/28/2008 12:32 pm ET by Mongo
Oh, nathar.I just got a private message from Piffin. He's afraid with all these posts I may beat him to 50,000 posts, so he wants you to call the electrician too.
He's done the same in several other threads. Gives you some info and never follows thru.
Not very courteous
So,Have you asked him why yet?
I've been waiting to hear his side of this strange tale before offering my opinion. Most problems are resolved by simple communication, something he apparently gets an F grade in, but if you are not placing a call to him either, the whole thread sounds childish
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He's getting a lot of ' messages to me' out of it, tho...
Got a building problem?Go to Heck with it!
And they all want to know the same thing.
C'MON what's the deal?
Starting to think that sparky did try to contact him, and he didn't answer him either.
With the recent track record of no communication, Sparkies position is looking stronger every minute.
I think he should pay the sparky and withold it from the..........GC.......surely the one with the responsibility for the scope of the project.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
He needs some more.
Apparently he isn't getting the message yet
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Wow, and to think that I made the "childish" comment before reading it all the way through! How prescient of me! LOLI can't believe he lets this escalate like this. No wonder his bill has escalated! The longer this goes on, the more speculating I do coming up with different scenarios how he got to this point, more than half of them his fault.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Nathar all the kidding aside there are two things you need to do, the first is fill out your profile, I am surprised no one jumped your case for that, when you make a post the info there sometimes helps.The second is all of us like to help people that is one reason we are here, but you need to give as much info that you can up front, if it's a detail that you consider trivial include it. Don't let some thing like the ceiling is open side till the 70 post.Wallyo
I am starting to suspect that he gave the electrician some sort of indication that he wanted more. I know that I've thrown up my hands a couple times, trying to sort out what clients really want, especially when they ask a sub to do something different without consulting me.
Nathar sure is coming across as kind of an odd duck online. I have a mental image of someone muttering "I don't think this will be enough light" over and over until the electrician just says "f*** it" and pre-emptively adds more pots to avoid a retrofit later.
Edited 3/28/2008 12:34 pm ET by Biff_Loman
Or try this one on: 'he said she said'. Ever have that? Methinks Nathar might have to have a chat with his significant other.
I kid you not, my former employers had a client whose husband refused to pay for a kitchen renovation. He went away on business, though, so she bought a couple cabinets every time he went away, and squirrelled them away in the garage. Eventually they already owned a whole kitchen's worth, so he relented.
You can't make that stuff up.
BiffSome where buried he says that was not the case; significant other (or at least wife which I would extend) How do you hide a whole kitchen in a garage?Wallyo
Same place you hide the body
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, but the cabs stink less.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I don't know Jhole you ever unwrap some of those shrink wrapped kitchen cab's the off gassing can knock you over.Wallyo
Hide? He knew they were there. They'd fight about it.Some couples have strange relationships.
'zactly. We all get customers like that sometimes.
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He's probably back home by now. I guess you'll have to wait until monday to get the answer, huh?
Think of how bad this is gonna look by then!
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Not sure what's so odd. I'm sure everybody's just sitting on the edge of their seats waiting for the exciting resolution to this tale for the ages, but I'm afraid it'll have to wait. I've got a number of other more pressing issues to take care of before I really feel like calling the electrician and arguing with him about how much extra to pay for the lights.
What's so odd is that you came on a website and asked all of us what to do, but you won't take out your forkin cell phone and ask him why he dood it.
I think it's just normal curiosity and a desire for some sort of closure. This is my first post in this thread, but I've been following it because I find it interesting to see the different takes on what is the appropriate thing to do (and I don't think I need to add my opinion because the spectrum has been covered).
I hope your skin is not too thin. I will admit that I found some of the cyber jabs that you got to be very amusing. Including Mongo, but I can't tell whether or not his posts were tongue-in-cheek.
Nathan, you asked your electrician to install 4 can lights.He installed six.You came to an anonymous internet forum to ask us how you should deal with it.What is odd is that we've repeatedly asked you to speak directly with your electrician and ask him "why he installed 6 instead of 4 lights."Yet you refuse to do so.I've been on this forum, literally, since Day One, and this is the first time in 12 years I'm going to be, shall we say...impolite?Reach between your legs. If you feel anything other than empty space, pick up the phone and call your freaking electrician.Or quit your moaning and send him a check for six large.You ask us for help? We've been pretty darn consistent.We're here to help you, but you need to help us...and yourself.Call him. Ask him why he installed six instead of four.
I'm just wondering how many "extra" lights there are by now!
if the electrician added those 2 extra in one afternoon ...
what do ya think he's capable of in the time it's taken this tread to run!
poor guy probably has like 18 extra lights in each freaking room by now.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Don't know.His kitchen may be bright, but so far nathan is coming across as a bit dim.No offense Nathan. Pic up the phone and call you electrician, or email me if you're offended by my posts.Don't get me wrong...I'm rooting for you. I just want you to be rooting for you too.
"Pic up the phone and call you electrician,"
Ohhh ... now U tell him!
nice ... slipping it there ... in the middle of a post ....
at the end.
U really shoulda suggested that before!
some bud U are ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Amen and thank you.
LOL.... with this awesome display of comunication skills, I can't ever imagine how things went so wrong. LOL.... you and this electrician are a match made in heaven.
This thread is priceless for so many reasons.
View Image
Edited 3/28/2008 11:17 pm ET by dieselpig
"This thread is priceless for so many reasons."A real stress reliever, ain't it?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Not hard to imagine the electrician trying for days to ask the OP if he wouldn't really rather have 6 cans, as it would work better, and getting no response - then thinking, well, while I'm here, I'll do it right, and charge what I charged per light to put two more in...
Got a building problem?Go to Heck with it!
My thoughts exactly.Bill
I can't believe I just read 117 messages and I still don't know why that electrician claims he installed 2 extra cans.
The conversation has centered on what you should do, or would be right to do. And everyone's right that that is what it comes down to.
Oddly enough, there are situations where you could be required to pay for work you never even thought to request. I remember a case from law school where a roofer had mistakenly re-roofed the wrong house. Somebody at the company had written the address numbers down wrong. I thought, as did all of my classmates, "Wow! A free roof!" But that wasn't the case. Because the homeowner received the benefit of a new roof, he had to pay for it. That still doesn't seem right to me, but the homeowner ended up paying for a roof he never asked for.
I don't remember if he had to pay the full price of the roof, or some lesser value. I imagine that at the very least it would have been reduced by whatever the value of his existing roof had been. If I recall, it was a matter of equity, and if he had paid for a new roof the year before, he wouldn't have received much benefit from the mistaken roof.
Anyway, the roofer was only able to collect because he had genuinely made a mistake. The electrician here obviously didn't as he billed the additional two lights as extra. Also, it could be argued whether more is better in a situation like this, though Nathar already said it was.
I would only pay the electrician more if in my conversations with him I had somehow indicated that I was relying on his expertise for the number and placement of the cans. If I had simply hired him and asked that 4 cans be installed in a given location, I'd pay him nothing extra. But if I thought I'd given him reasonable cause to believe that I was seeking some result that he actually then achieved, I'd pay him.
And it would have nothing to do with whether he was a "family man" as one poster suggested it should.
Very strange case. I assume the roof wasn't done in a day, did the homeowner realize someone was putting on a roof? If that's the case, I could see some culpability. But, imagine coming home and someone had installed a hottub in your backyard. How could they ask you to pay for it?
Nat, I, like some other responders, can't believe I wasted so much time on this thread when you haven't been willing to answer legitimate questions or give full disclosure. I find it extremely odd that you can question an others post about a roof but won't take the time to answer ?'s about yours. If you had been one of my customers you would join my list of PIA's that I no longer work for. What type of "consultant" are you? (BTW, if I get an answer I'll be surprised.)
Maybe his IS THE contractor who did the work! If so all he has to do is call himself!
Maybe split personallity, we all know what that means!
No tell me what does that mean?
I don't know you tell me!
No, you tell me!
Nailer
No tell me what does that mean?
I don't know you tell me!
No, you tell me!
I already told you
Tell me again, I didn't hear you.
Get the krap out of your ears and pay attention. I'm only going to say this once.
Don't you dare talk to me like that."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I get the point of your example. Of course, with a hot tub, they would remove it if it was portable. Even if it wasn't, I presume they'd have the right to uninstall things and return them to how they were.
As far as the roof goes, if the unintended recipient knew of the mistake and had a chance to correct it before the work was too far along, then he would not have a good equitable argument for not paying for the roof. I have to admit that I can't recall all fo the facts, but the point of the case was to illustrate how you could end up having to pay for something that you hadn't contracted for if you received some benefit. In practice, I don't know how often the mistaken contractor could expect to recover the cost of the roof. It still seems wholly unreasonable to me to expect the homeowner to pay. The homeowner with the roof may have been out of town, or maybe not. Even if they had just come out and scraped off the old roof while he was at work, it would have been too late to halt the project.
But of course it has no application to the facts you've presented. The electrician clearly knew he hadn't been asked to install those additional lights. Absent some convincing proof that he could have reasonably believed that you had given him the impression that he should feel free to make such "improvements" to the plan, he'd lose in a court battle. Legally that has to be true or contractors could roam the streets doing unauthorized repairs and then billing for them.
That said, I have to join the chorus of voices asking you to let us know what the electrician says about why he installed those lights. I suppose he may have just decided it would be better that way and gone ahead.
I once had an expensive lockbox installed in my van by a reputable stereo/alarm shop. When I went to pick the van up, the installer had fabricated a shelf to go inside the box to hold my Ipod, remote navigation unit, auxilliary 12v plugs, etc. To do this he drilled holes in the box and modified it in ways that I never requested, so when he undid it, the box was never the same.
I couldn't believe it. We had NEVER discussed anything like that. I needed every square inch inside the box for my camera equipment. He just went off on his own doing things the way he would have liked them. And he was actually really p*ssed off when I had him undo it. He was indignant and acted like I was insulting him. I should have sued him for a new lock box, but I let it go. I certainly wouldn't have paid him for the extra work, but, then again, I didn't like it. I don't know how you protect against something like that.
Edited 3/29/2008 2:52 pm ET by JDLee
"The more you buy of anything the cheaper the unit rate"
Yeah right, tell that to a bartender, hooker, or a gas pump.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
One possibility slipped past me ... The high price .... just might be reasonable, after all. That is, the guy is using this 'change order' to recover losses he incurred from a few unexpected delays, obstacles, price increases, etc, since he bid the job. A lot of contractors are far better tradesmen than businessmen. The result? Things are often presented to the customer poorly - with the effect of undermining the relationship.
Yeah, it's important to know WHY he put in 6.
Honest mistake?
or
He thought you really meant 6 and 6 would be appropriate.
You can negotiate something.
He put in 6 hoping you'd accept without complaint the extra $200?
The guys a d*ck and treat him as such.
Give me his cell number, I'll call and ask him for the sake of this thread.
Edited 3/27/2008 9:29 pm ET by CJM
I wish anyone would call the sparky and just ask the man.Wallyo
Now, I don't mind the extra lights, I actually think they look good.
I may be in the minority, but a professional who looks at a situation and makes a judgment call to fix something that would otherwise cause a hard to fix underlighting situation, has saved you money over rearanging a poorly designed (by you) light layout.
Personally, it sounds like you are trying to get something for nothing by not paying for the extra lights.
It's clear to me that you should pay the guy and $100 a can is cheap.
On the other hand he showed poor judgement by not recognizing you're the type of person who would bust his chops for the extra work and protect himself by at least calling to touch bases with you (no good deed goes unpunished). It also seems strange for an electrican to have a contract for something as small as 4 cans.
Legally he probably wouldn't be able to collect for the two extra lights if the contract is specifically for a fixed price, not that it makes it right, but it is the price of having poor judgement.
When I have the HVAC contractor bid and install a new furnace and he recognizes an outdated part of the system isn't worth keeping he replaces it and adds it to the bill. Same for the good plumbers and electricans we've used. It's often just the way quality professionals work.
Having said that, I'm always handy when subs are working on our projects so these types of situations aren't surprises at the end of the day.
Enjoy the lights.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I am with you on all that Don. ( Notice we think alike in a lot of ways?)"It also seems strange for an electrican to have a contract for something as small as 4 cans. "
That statement especially. This has been gnawing in the back of my mind while waiting for some sort of polite response from the OP. I have speculated on at least a dozen scenmarios leading to this point, and what keeps bubbling up is that Nathar is the GC himself and recognizes his own shortcomings related to lack of experience and poor communication skills, so he tries to make up for it by being anal about contracts and details. The fact that the price per each might be on the high side of a range could be related to the fact that the electrician could see this coming and figured on a PIA factor.The easiest thing for me to imagine is the original conversation between the two if them going back and forth on how many lights and where to place them. Finally the exasperated electrician scribbles up the proposal to get things moving forward so something can happen other than talk/talk. Part of the conversation may have been "You can try this and if it doesn't look right, you could maybe add some more"
Odds are that there was something that gave sparky the idea that some more lighting would be OK.I have changed or added to a scope when my position as manager or designer gives me that authority to and have always been paid to do so. Most people even make it clear that when they hire me it is because they feel they can trust my judgment to do the right thing in their absence for them
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You seem to be approaching this forum like a machine. Put in your nickel and see if it spits out the answer I want.It doesn't work that way. These are real people here with real experience with the work and with other people. This is a DISCUSSION Forum.So when you are asked for information that is pertinent to providing you with good answers, there is reason for it. The answers are worthless without decent responses from you.You failure to call the electrician makes your attempt to get info here worthless.But the worst thing is that by ignoring the question totally for so long, even tho you were reading the same request over and over for days is nothing but an insult and a slap in the face to everyone in this forum who has shown an interest in helping you.I hope that sheds some light on your situation for you.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Notice we think alike in a lot of ways?
Must have bought our BS detectors at the same place! ;)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.