A few years back I was at an estate sellout auction and bought a couple spools of this wire.
It was sold as underground wire but has no identifying markings on the outside jacket or on the inside save a slip of plastic tape bedded between the two lines saying Manufactured by Pirelli Cable.
Was wondering if anyone might be able to tell if this is indeed underground cable and as I believe it is #6 does the added groundline also need to be a #6? Thanks.
The plan is to run the line out thru the back yard, across the side of the driveway culvert of the brook by the willows to a central box in a workshop building about 150ft out from the house.
be a willow
Replies
rez,
I think you are going to have a VD problem at that distance
,is that stuff Al or clad??
It's solid copper with a silvery finish for whatever reason on the outside of the raw wire.
be thinking there should be a good line to go with 'a VD problem at that distance'
G80104? Is that anything like Fireball XL5?
ha, if it was Al. you would likely have more than 3% VD, stiil, you need ...4...wires , I only see 2...That stuff looks like some kind of signal wire to me, like RR or airport , but ... I ..?"
Whose Al? bwaa!
Not planning on a welder or any heavy draws. Lights and small equipment only.
Thought I'd be able to add a ground and just run the two.
G80104? Is that anything like Fireball XL5?
......Al be baaack ...............I wish I had some ginsengtheorectically, you are on the high side of permissible VD with a 50A circuit, at that length, but for what you want ,I say ....do it see any voltage rating on the cable ?"
nothing on the cable jackets.
If I just run the two will I need the same #6 ground?
G80104? Is that anything like Fireball XL5?
Observations:
1) Silver color is likely a Tin plating, commonly applied to severe-use wiring, like Marine, Aircraft, and other applications with exposure concerns. Reduces corrosion, and is a good thing.
2) Can't tell from the Pix if the individual conductors are covered with colored insulators. This could be a safety issue, unless both are black, and you use them to carry line voltage only.
3) Some application in code allow you to designate conductor color with colored tape at terminal ends, but I don't know enough about this.
4) If you add a third wire for ground purposes, make your it's appropriately colored. You can use same size or one size lower for ground, if I recall correctly.
5) Pirelli is a EU company with a quality reputation, but EU regulatory agencies are really finicky about their labeling - odd that it does not have markings - might be a special use commercial cable, or be old. Are there markings or data on the spools?
6) While it's likely to be quality cable and possibly suitable for burial, there's some risk if the jacket and insulators are not UV / Water or Solvent resistant - IT may be safest to plan on use in PVC conduit and not direct burial or in air.
umm, the smallest it can be is #8 I thought you were going to run two cables ?"
I did a google on Perilli cable and it appears that it is the same company that the tires. And they make cables for special usages such as mining, under water and the like.So you guess is probably close.
...from time to time I would see some regular building wire in the larger gauges from them"
Copper. Good.
If you double this up, you have your two 110's for 220v, your neutral, and your ground.
Add a 60 to 100 amp, 220 breaker in the main, and run your two power lines off that. Your wires should just barely fit the lugs on a siemens breaker. You can find lugs for your wire size, that will screw onto the nuetral and ground buss bars.
Separate the ground and nuetral buss bars at the sub. Insulate the nuetral from the box. (Float the nuetral buss bar.)
Just for kicks and grins add a normal ground at the sub-panel. You'll be told there's no point, if you have a floating nuetral buss, and a ground that goes to home, but I like the extra insurance, anyway, just because.
I think you'll be close on the VD. In theory, maybe lose 3 to 6 volts. But to be honest, in practice I don't think you'll lose even that, or have any other real problem.
If you can run it any shorter by any other route, go to the extra trouble and do so, and lose any thought of VD.
I base that on my own experience, where if that were aluminum, and it were 130 feet, you'd supposedly possibly lose that 3 to 6 volts. For up to 100 amp service. (I have zero VD)
Being copper, at 130 feet or less, there should be no VD problem whatever, for 100 amp service.
Of course, I am not an electrician, and you know that.
=0)
I don't want to horn in on Rez's question but i have a slightly similar one, and there seems to be some intelligent people out there so:
I ran 1100' of underground power to a transformer (utility installed) . From the transformer we brought a 400 amp service to a newly built barn/equipment shed. The plan is to build a house another 300 feet farther away. The 400 amps to the barn was ridiculous, but the orignal plan was to tap off that meter and head up to the house when we start construction.
Considering the VD problem, can I go back to the transformer and use a different set of taps and get a slightly higher voltage to compensate for the drop going up to the house? I know this means another service, and paying another basic service fee every month is not too appealing.
If I come off the meter at the barn and I want 200 amps at the house, 300' away, what size wire? two aught? three aught?
Yes, a real electrician will be enlisted, but for planning purposes does anyone have some advice?
Thanks.
what is the voltage at the barn? is it 3 phase?
how big are those feeders? regardless,you have to change the taps, because.....4/0 will get you 200 A to the house with an additional 3% VD ......and 3% is the maxif you get any farther from that service....you gonna need a substation"
The volage at the barn is nominally 120240, single phase. I believe it service supply is 000. The transformer is at primary voltage on the street side. Will it have taps that allow for the extra 3%?
Thanks for the advice.
Winchester, ....nominal? do you know exactly what the voltage is?
it is possible there is a tap changer in the trasformer, I don't recall what the percentages are though,
also I think you should get the utility involved before you run any wire... they may tell you that what you have is what you getthe things talked about here are just suggestions, it is impossible to tell you exactly what you need with the info here !
I'm a little confused , you are 1100 feet from Trans. to 400 A service in barn and you think the wire is 3/0 .. this can't be right you want 200A for a house and I said that 4/0 would work ,but it is at the allowable limit for the NEC ..... 3%, as dutchblue said you should think about 350mcm but that is more than double the size of your main feeders which are almost 4X longer"
"you are 1100 feet from Trans. "I believe that the 1100 is on the primary side of the transformer.Did not say how close the transformer was to the barn.
well that answer of some questions but , I thought Winchester said HE ran 1100' of wire to the transformer?only problem now is the feeders, they are TOO small for 400A.....unless.... they are paralled"
"I ran 1100' of underground power to a transformer (utility installed) . From the transformer we brought a 400 amp service to a newly built barn/equipment shed. "There is a lot of ambiguity in those sentneces.I gathered that the "I ran" was "I paid for".
Correct- I put the pipe in the ground, that was the extent of my involvement outside of writing a check.
Some clarifications:
The barn is 50' from the transformer and is fed from the street which is a distance of 1100' away. Not sure of the exact voltage input into the transformer but it is "primary" so I'm thinking it's very high.
The service to the barn from the transformer is only a 50' run and is NOT 3/0 as previously stated, it is probably 500M, but I don't know for sure because the utility put it in, but the stated service requirement to the barn was 400 amps so I assume it is in that range.
I need to bury another 300' of line to get to the house site. I can trench from the transformer and essentially create a second service or I can trench from the meter which is on the side of the barn. So the questions are:
Would the transformer have taps that give me higher voltage to compensate for VD to the house? If I go from the barn can I compensate for VD by oversizing the wire?
Why is 3% maximum VD allowed- this is only about 4 volts and I often see nominal 120 volt circuits with greater fluctuations. Are motors the primary victims if you exceed the recommended VD?
Thanks for the help.
Whew,Ok,
there is a requirement in the NEC that the max Vd for feeders (branch circuits )not exceed 3%, with a total of 5% to the farthest outlet. yes you can upsize the feeders to the house,... for Vd <2% use 350MCM or larger ...Copper500MCM Aluminum is a bit more than 2% Vd, but you need to terminate that wire carefully and follow the mfrs guidelines.your utility is probably gonna have something to say about a 300 ' unmetered run, and it is probably gonna sound like ....NOthe service panel is large enough to handle a sub feed of 200 A , but you will need a ground to tag aong with the feeders to the new panel.
that wire can be smaller, between 3/0 and 350MCM you can use a #2 if you use all Copperif you go with All Aluminum, you need a 3/0 Alif you experience voltage problems after all of your hard work, your utility may decide ,as I said earlier, that you have gotten all they are required to provide. You need to get them involved, and they may even have an easier solution for themselves. Vd is affects everything ! you can have real problems with
motors. and ..... something you can't control ...the Utlity , which can vary their voltage within prescribed limits
Edited 10/5/2005 11:33 am ET by maddog3
Thanks for the info- I know I will need to deal with the utility, but they are such a pain to deal with it is almost tempting to off the grid- option three- let the state subsidize up to $25ko of Photovoltaic system.
I read somewhere that Ct. is offering a $5/w rebate to Comm. and Industrial users,
it seems like both coasts are getting on the renewable energy wagon ,
along with Calif. wonderful new Title 24........you got me all fired up, I just enrolled in a class to learn howto install PVAs,,,,,starts Nov.4 ....3 daysthank you very much
Edited 10/5/2005 12:51 pm ET by maddog3
Thank you- and if you decide to get into the installation email me- I am in northwest CT, where the nights are cold and the women are... well they're women.
WC
Thank you, I will be done with the class Nov. 18th and I let you know what I know .......great........"
> Will it have taps that allow for the extra 3%?
Only your utility will know for sure, and know whether it's already at the highest tap. They may be a little strapped for manpower these days, a lot of utility crews have gone to fix hurricane damage. When we were at Universal, I know they used to shift their transformer taps in the spring and fall to compensate for seasonal A/C load.
-- J.S.
300 foot is a long way for 4/0. 350/350/250 would get you exactly 3% loss at 300 feet.
somethin's not adding up , he says the feeders are 3/0 from the tranny ??????"
> I believe it is #6
#6 would have a diameter of 0.162", just a little more than 3/32" = 0.156". The nearest common sizes are #8 = 0.1285" and #4 = 0.2043".
But with the name Pirelli, could this be European wire? Do they have metric sizes for wire? Hmmm -- I'll Google that.
-- J.S.
If it is unmarked, you'd need to make sure that you can convince the electrical inspector that it is indeed underground cable. The one in my area needed to see the URD (or USE) markings on the cable before he'd pass it (not a big deal for me since it wasn't covered yet).
Second, you WILL need 4 wires. When feeding a subpanel, you need separate neutral & ground. In your sub panel, you will need to remove the connector between the neutral/ground busses so that they are separate & then connect all neutrals from your shop runs to one side & all grounds to the other.