Replies

1. 
   rez | Oct 30, 2007 03:01am | #1

   Greetings townail,

   This post, in response to your question, will bump the thread through the 'recent discussion' listing again which will increase it's viewing.

   Perhaps it will catch someone's attention that can help you with advice.

   Cheers

    

2. 
   MikeHennessy | Oct 30, 2007 03:19am | #2

   I saw this Q when you first posted it, but I thought I must be missing something. But since nobody else has responded, here's my $.02:

   If I'm doing a granite top, I take the sink and faucett to the fab shop and they cut/drill/route as needed, and the counter is delivered ready to go. The undermount just hangs on clips that hook into the slots they cut at the shop. Caulk the seam before you lift the sink. (For some reason, a lot of installers seem to like to slop caulk on the seam AFTER the sink is mounted, making an ugly mess of things.) Pretty simple, really.

   Mike Hennessy
   Pittsburgh, PA

1. 
   Jamie_Buxton | Oct 30, 2007 03:50am | #3

   My countertops guys prefer a different approach from Mike's.   They prefer me to cover the base cabinets with 5/8 ply, cut the sink cutout in it, and relieve the edge of the hole with a router so that the top of the sink flange is flush with the top of the plywood.   At installation time, they put the sink in the hole, and put the granite down on top.  They color acrylic caulk with artists colors, and work it into the joint between the sink flange and the granite.  (They tool it with a wet sponge.)  The sink weight is supported by the plywood, not the granite.  The only thing preventing the sink from moving laterally is the caulk -- but there's a big area of it, and it is in shear.

   So the answer to the OP's question may be "What does your granite guy want?"

1. 
   rwjiudice | Oct 30, 2007 04:35am | #4

   I too have an undermounted porcelain (or what passes for porcelain these days) with a granite top.

   My question is..... when the wife chips the sink and wants it replaced.... I've got to call a plumber after having 15 feet of granite removed??? Oh, 15 feet of granite goes around a corner with a glass stove top and 2 epoxied seams......

   Sounds like a major $$$$$$$$$$$ project?

1. 
   JeffBuck | Oct 30, 2007 05:27am | #5

   Sounds like a major $$$$$$$$$$$ project?

    

   Yup.

   expecially when said plumber says he's a plumber and not a granite guy ... and won't take responsibility for cracking said granite ... and tells U to call the granite guy to remove the bowl.

   then the granite guy ... who's not a plumber ... says ...

    

   Jeff    Buck Construction

    Artistry In Carpentry

        Pittsburgh Pa

2. 
   plumbbill | Oct 30, 2007 06:02am | #7

   depends on how the sink was mounted.

   if it was dropped into a plywood sub base then it would be the worst case scenario.

   & yes I have seen porcelain sinks done that way, albiet it's rare.

   If it is standard installed with clip holding it to a plywood base or the granite then it's doable.

   Main thing is to support the sink with a board spanning the top opening whith a rod going down through one of the drains to another board to carry the weight, & then cut the piss out of the caulking until you are compleyely through the other side.

   “The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations.” —George Washington

2. 
   MikeHennessy | Oct 30, 2007 02:31pm | #9

   "They color acrylic caulk with artists colors, and work it into the joint between the sink flange and the granite."

   See? There ya' go -- that's what I mean. Caulk is not eternal. After a year or two, even the most artfully done exposed caulked sink seam will look like carp! Then you have to ream it out and redo it, and look forward to doing it again in a year or two.

   That's why I like to caulk the sink rim before I install it to the granite. That way, the caulk is not exposed so it won't be an eyesore next year, but it does the job to make things watertight for a LONG time.

   It makes it a bit tougher if you need to drop the sink later, but a sink will last a lot longer than an exposed caulk joint.

   Another poster points out the cons with recessing the sink in in a plywood sub. If you do need to replace the sink, you pretty much have to disassemble the countertop. With a hung sink, you just loosen the clips , cut the caulk and you're done. I wouldn't look forward to lifting $5K worth of counter to replace a scratched $300 sink bowl.

   Here's a bathroom sink, undermounted with clips, caulked joint. Took 10 minutes to install. It would take maybe 15 minutes to drop it later, if needed. No visible caulk to worry about later. (BTW, I caulk my backsplash seams the same way -- between the parts, not on top.)

   But that's just me -- liking to do things, er, "different" sometimes. ;-)

   Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA

3. 
   plumbbill | Oct 30, 2007 05:38am | #6

   Both methods ( in post 3 & 4) will work.

   But on my jobs we rarely do any of those. more like a hybrid.

   If you cut out a plywood subtop & rest the sink in that after the tops have been fabbed you better be exact in your placement.

   I do highrise condos so there is a lot of granite & it usually is prefabbed by a water jet CNC long before the cabinets get installed. All of our sink base cabs have a plywood top  that will get cut out just larger than the entire sink ( ss & enameled CI).

   Granite gets laid down then we set sink up in the cabinet, but we do NOT  anchor to the granite we anchor to the plywood sub top.

   “The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations.” —George Washington

4. 
   Piffin | Oct 30, 2007 01:15pm | #8

   Just install it flush with top of the cabinet, then have the granite guys make their template and then they install the granite over the sink, cualking it in

    

    

   Welcome to the
   Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
    where ...
   Excellence is its own reward!

5. 
   Gene_Davis | Oct 30, 2007 03:09pm | #10

   In my area, the SS sinks are glued to the bottom side of the granite top.  A "structural" silicone is used.  Done.

   Same type of siicone as is used to glue highrise windows to the curtainwall.  Feel safe walking down 5th Avenue in NYC?

1. 
   BillHartmann | Oct 30, 2007 06:30pm | #11

   Don't forget that there are two basic types of granite counter top installations.Thin (I think 3/4) and it is installed over a plywood substrate. And the edge is built up.Thick (1 1/4" ?) and can be installed without a substrate. Also it has enough meat to put fasterners.Another method of attaching is to use an adhesvie to attch some plywood strips outside the sink opening tht you can run screws into..
   .
   A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

2. 
   Biff_Loman | Oct 30, 2007 09:30pm | #12

   Yeah, same here. It's kind of a PITA, because sink installation and faucet/drain connections can't - or at least shouldn't - be done on the same day. The silicone's still too fresh.All my experience is in remodeling, so I'm used to clients desperate to have their kitchen sink back.

6. 
   Kowboy | Oct 30, 2007 09:32pm | #13

   This is the only way to go:

   http://integra-adhesives.com/video1.html

   The guys at Integra are the best, I've used their stuff for years, no callbacks ever.

   Kowboy

7. 
   formula1 | Oct 30, 2007 11:05pm | #14

   I install Kohler cast iron undermount sinks and use the K undermount kit, too much weight to risk on anything else. Even use the undermount kits on SS sinks, they're easy to put in and the screws are ready and lined up to lift the sink up to the granite.

   If it ain't broke, don't fix it, just open it up to see how it works!

8. 
   Hackinatit | Oct 31, 2007 01:06am | #15

   Buy the undermount rail kit from the sink manufacturer and let it into the cabinet box top rails.

   You can then, with some finesse, replace the sink in the future.

   Liberty = Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.

   American Heritage Dictionary

1. 
   Kowboy | Oct 31, 2007 04:11am | #16

   Formula 1 and Hackinatit:

   The Integra fasteners I linked to hold 350 pounds each. If you install six of them, it's gonna take more than a one-ton turkey to bust that sink loose.

   Mechanically fastened, sink change-out is a breeze.

   Kowboy