My wife and I just received the inspection report for the home we’re planning to buy. No real red flags for me except for this paragraph:
“A representative number of installed lighting fixtures, switches, and receptacles located throughout the home were inspected and were found to be functional. There were several three-prong receptacles in the home that were ungrounded…There were GFCI protected circuits located in the home. The present and tested GFCI’s were functional, but they were all ungrounded. A non-functional GFCI should be replaced with functional GFCI’s.”
How big of a problem are ungrounded outlets? If it is a big problem, how hard is it to correct? The house is a two story Cape Cod style home built in 1954. The sellers are only the second owners.
Thanks for any info!
Bart
Replies
The question is, are the ungrounded 3-prong outlets GFCI-protected? (The only "legal" way to have ungrounded 3-prong outlets.) If not then a jackleg has gotten in there and no telling what other wiring is messed up. Unfortunately it's difficult to test ungrounded outlets for GFCI protection.
(The outlets are supposed to be labeled with an "Ungrounded - Protected by GFCI" sticker, but these get removed because they're so ugly.)
Thanks for the info Dan. You say it is difficult to check ungrounded outlets for GFCI protection, which I take to mean not impossible. Can you tell me in layman's terms what the procedure is?Also, there are GFCI breakers available yes? If I replaced everything in the panel with GFCI breakers would that meet your criteria of having the ungrounded 3-prong outlets GFCI protected?
And if I wanted to fix the problem the right way, assuming that the wiring isn't BX, how big of an operation are we talking about? Can a good electrician "fish" a ground wire or are we looking at opening walls?Should I even be all that concerned about it?
"how big of an operation are we talking about? "it is going to take an electrician on site to answer that for you.
It can involve total rewiring - pulling new romex trough the walls at high expense. But nobody here can see what actually exists.
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I figured the answer would be something like that Piffin, thanks. I have put out the feelers at my new job for an electrician referral. Hopefully I can find someone knowledgeable and reliable to take a look at it for me.
In general you are not allowed to run a separate wire outside of conduit or cables. But this is one place it is specifically allowed to run a separate wire. And that ground wire has to go back to the main panle or something that does go back to the main panel such as a ground in another box or to ground electrodes. In the past they where run to nearest cold water pipes, but that is no longer allowed and because of changes in plumbing materials it can be dangerous.In general if you can run a single wire you can run new cable, if not always.There is nothing wroing with ungrounded receptacles if you have nothing with a grounded plug to plug in.And most home appliances don't have grounded plugs. The major excepts are microways, refigerators, window AC, and computers. Table lamps, mixers, radios, vacuums don't.As mentioned the GFCI gives the same personal safety as grounded receptacles.But surge protectors need a true ground for maximum protection. But you will still get some without it.You still need GFCI's for the kitchen countertop receptacles and bathrooms. No need for true grounds there. But I would look to see if the number of circuits and number of recpetacles are enough for modern needs and look more at upgrading for that reason than if they are grounded or not.But get a true ground which GFCI for the refigerator because false tripping of the GFCI can allow the ice cream to melt.If the metal boxes are wired with BX or with metal conduit then the boxes are grounded and you can attach a ground wire to that.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
And most home appliances don't have grounded plugs. The major excepts are microways, refigerators, window AC, and computers. Table lamps, mixers, radios, vacuums don't.
Why do some devices use a grounded plug and others don't? Is there some (real or perceived) additional risk with appliances like refrigerators that are all metal?
The logic is that devices without a ground plug should be 'double-insulated' - that is to say, constructed in such a way that the exterior surface of the device could never, ever become live.And yet, there are metal lamps without a ground prong. Go figure.
Biff covered it..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Getting an existing system properly grounded is only a real big job if what you have is K&T (extremely unlikely by 1954) or the old two wire Romex or Loomex. If you have conduit, flex, BX, or Romex with the bare ground wire, it's just work in the boxes to put it right. (Unless it's grounding Romex and some @#$%$%# has cut the bare ground wires off.)
There are GFCI breakers, but they're expensive and a pain in the tush compared with GFCI receptacles. GFCI's trip a lot more than regular breakers, so as a general rule, it's best to have them in the same room with all the outlets they control. You don't want to have to go schlepping out to the panel at night in the rain.
If you want to do something yourself before the electrician gets there, draw up a rough floor plan with the locations of all the plugs, switches, lights, etc. Number the breakers from the top down, then turn off all the breakers except #1. Go through the house, and mark on the plan everything that's on circuit #1. Do likewise for the rest of them. This takes time, but it'll save some of the electrician's expensive time.
Since you're having an electrician open all the boxes, make a sort of whole system tune-up out of it. Have them check all the splices and replace marginal receptacles, switches, etc, as long as you're at it.
-- J.S.
Thanks John, good advice. Unfortunately the house is wired with 2-wire Romex so grounding will involve pulling new cable. The good news is that the basement is unfinished so there should be good access. We had the local electrician take a look, and the gist of his report was that we should probably get the affected outlets rewired at some point but that there was no immediate danger.
The procedure is to get a "suicide adapter" (two prong to 3 prong adapter with the pigtail), a GFCI tester, and a length of wire. Connect the length of wire to the pigtail on the adapter, and connect the other end to a good ground (eg, water pipe). Plug the GFCI tester into the adapter and then plug the whole thing into the suspect outlet.Press the test button. If a GFCI somewhere trips, the outlet is GFCI protected. (You might as well make up a chart of which outlet is protected by which GFCI while you're doing this test.)
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
Installing GFCI breakers would be sufficient to establish "legal" protection of the ungrounded outlets. Though in theory you still need those stickers.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
IFThey are installed right.best determined by a real live sparky on site. He might just tell this guy that things look fine.
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i live in a 1950's cape also. all the outlets were 2 prong. i bought grounded outlets and grounding pigtails that are about 8" long and have a loop and screw on one end. after disconnecting the power i replaced the outlets and screwed the pigtail into the metal box and attached the other end to the outlet. the boxes are connected to bx cable thereby having a ground path to the main panel. i would estimate it took me 15 min for each location. i would also suggest to connect the wire to the outlets using the screw lugs and not back stabbing, too much of a chance for failure.
But this is only a solution if the boxes are all wired with BX, correct?
Not an electrician but here are a couple more cents worth.
As Dan said it is permissible to have the three prong on an ungrounded "if protected by gfci and have the appropriate ungrounded outlet" sticker. This is done by installing the gfci upstream of the ungrounded three prongs.
A reasonable downside is that equipment that really needs a ground "read surge suppressor" will not function properly. It uses that ground to dissipate the surge. Otherwise it is safe, legal, and a much cheaper cost alternative to rewiring.
The next paragraph in that report should read, "This is a high priority situation that should be further evaluated by a licensed electrician"
it is possible that this was done in a way that is fine, (I'm not sure exactly how he made his determination) but more than likely, some goofball replaced the two prongs with three prong receptacles without actually grounding them to make it more convenient to use many plugs. problem is then that you think you are safe when you really are not. You can become the ground. That is not often a good feeling.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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That beats breaking the prongs off doesn't it? Either way, the results are the same. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Not really, when you tear the prongs out, you know what your level of danger is. When it is hidden and done by a third party, you are living with a false sense of security, sleepwalking down the middle of the boulevard
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..........replaced the two prongs with three prong receptacles without actually grounding them ......
I ran into this one a few years ago in a house with K&T wiring!! The owners were crushed when I told them that although a three prong outlet could easily be wired in, it wasn't grounded unless there was continuous conduit - or a ground wire - back to the panel.
I have a couple of 3 to 2 converter plugs (with a little ground wire) that I use if I'm working in an old house with 2 prong plugs.
Either the HI is an idiot or his communication skills are worse than mine.
If the GFCI's are functioning then my put in the sentence about replacing non funcitoning ones?
If by non function ones he means ones with out an equipment ground conductor then he is wrong.
BTW IIRC the correct wording on the label is No Equipment Grounding Conductor, but not sure. And for any downstream protected receptacles also GFCI protected. That also includes ones that have grounds. Never seen a house with such a lable.
Yes, there GFCI testers, but they require a ground to function. In fact many HI's don't understand that will will write up GFCI's that won't test using there plug in tester. That may have been what he ment by non-functioning.
However, by UL listing on the GFCI, the only valid test is to use the test button on the GFCI.
The proper test is to see that the receptacles work. Then go to the GFCI and trip it. Then verify that the receptacles are dead.
The only problem is verifying which recpetacles a are protected by which, if any, GFCI.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
My last house was built in 1955, and was wired with grounded wires to metal boxes, but had all 2 prong outlets. I was able to replace them with 3 prong outlets by adding a "pig-tail" or ground tie fronm the ground screw on the outlet, to the metal box.
My SIL bought a house built also in 1955, and assumed, at the time, that he could do the same. Turns out his house is wired with plastic boxes, and without any ground wires at all. The clues were there, but he missed them. So.......since he wanted to replace the wallpaper covered 3/8" "rock-lath" with 1/2" sh rk, we had a chance to re-wire the entire house, and brought it all up to code.
The clues he could have looked for are....
1. remove an outlet and look for signs of a bare copper ground wire in the box. Also, is the box metal, or plastic. Not always so, but it does seem that quite a few homes around these parts built in the mid 50's used plastic boxes, and figured that they did not need to ground the boxes, so they opted for ungrounded wire.
2. Do the GFCI outlets (if they work correctly) have an extra wire run to a water pipe etc? Look below the 1st floor bath.
BTW, my current house, built in 1852, and wired in 1952, 1972, and 2004 has quite a mix. I found a lot of ungrounded wireing, especially on the second floor. In '04, I had grounded outlets wired in to each bedroom for window ac's, tv etc. They are on their own breakers. All the exist ungrounded outlets were replaced w/ new two prong outlets, and serve lamps etc.
I also brought up new wires for the bathrooms, to serve GFCI's, and exhaust fans etc.
But about half of my outlets on the second floor are still 2 prong. I can live with that.
Good luck
you just have to wonder how all that ball & tube stuff didn't kill us all... it didn't and alot is still in use...
i wouldn't worry about it all... but then i don't worry alot or look for things to worry about... BUT i'd have never known because i'd have never paid for an inspection...
what fun is life without surprises
p
"you just have to wonder how all that ball & tube stuff didn't kill us all..."Amen, but I think that anyone who installs an ungrounded 3-prong outlet on one of those "ball & tube" circuits should be made to wear a "Knob and Chain" shackled to his ankle. :)
BruceT
Aw, quit your balling!
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
I had a plumber who removed the grounding plug from his drill. You could ask him what is was for.... except he was found dead in a crawlspace.
"... except he was found dead in a crawlspace."What of, spider bites? :)
BruceT
I like a little surprise now and then, but not the 120V kind!So I got a personal reference for a local electrician and made arrangements for them to go take a look. No word back yet but I will update this thread when I hear anything.Thanks for all of the info!