Well.,, things are pretty good up here in peterborough,, but they could always be better. I was thinking of checking out the union office in port hope,,, I don’t really want to travel,, but hey, money talks right??
Anyone got anything to say about the Carpenter’s union?
I’m a journeyman.
dave
Replies
I was a member of a pretty half baked local of the UBC&JofA for about ten years. It has good points and bad.
As you're Canadian and have a national health care program, you may not get as much out of a union membership as we Yanks do.
If I were you I'd first call the local's office and ask to speak with the business agent about their current contract; the wage and benefit package, how much work is going on, how you become a member, etc. I also might ask for the names and phone numbers of several members, so that I could get a realistic picture of their day to day working life.
One of the better aspects of being a union member in NY State is that it's easier to qualify for and receive unemployment benefits when there's no work. Being a trade union member means that the state employment office can't demand any job searches from you, as they can from non-union workers.
Also, knowing how long you'll be out of work allows opportunities for vacations while collecting unemployment benefits.
Learning how to use time off to best advantage can be a great income tool for any union member. Working on personal projects, vacationing, etc.
I've known several members who were able to build a new home for their family during a long winter layoff, while receiving unemployment pay. All perfectly legal too.
None of this may apply to you, as our systems of government are quite different when it comes to delivery of human services to our citizens.
Internal union politics are often a PIA. That's something you have to experience for yourself to see how it effects you and your personal relationships. Some people deal with it easily, while others grind their teeth about it all the time.
< . . . Being a trade union member means that the state employment office can't demand any job searches from you, as they can from non-union workers . . . opportunities for vacations while collecting unemployment benefits . . . members who were able to build a new home for their family . . . while receiving unemployment pay. All perfectly legal too . . . >
I think you've defended my point in that other strike thread better than I could ever do!
Forrest - wishin' I could get paid for not working
Forrest - wishin' I could get paid for not working.
You should try living in the North where winter weather cuts construction down by more than half.
The big construction companies run their jobs according to what's efficient. That includes paying into the state unemployment fund for their employees. It's just a cost of doing business to them.
How those employees use their time off is no concern to those companies, as long as they can get their work force back when they're ready to resume operation.
Unions have made every American wage earner's life better, including yours.
Collective bargaining is the main reason that unions are needed. Without collective bargaining, it's The Grapes of Wrath for everyone (ever read that book?).
Collective bargaining sets the prevailing wage which has a very strong influence on every person's earnings.
Many non-union wage earners believe that they have negotiated their own deal, when it's really the prevailing wage and the threat of union involvement that keeps non-union companies paying a decent wage.
It saddens me to see a creative mind like yours mired in big business's propaganda. Please make an effort to educate yourself on this subject.
Edit: I much preferred working as a sub or a small general contractor but, living in a low income rrural area, I had a very difficult time making a living that way. Whatever profit I had from a busy summer was often used to keep me alive during the winter.
I also must admit to being much more concerned with doing quality work and teaching skills than learning how to improve my business and it's profit margin.
After one very long winter without work I decided to use my wits to gain membership in the United Brotherhood of Carpenters. It was a necessary move, not one I wanted to make. Like many others faced with the same facts of life, I made the best of it.
Edited 6/2/2008 8:06 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I kind of see cyclical unemployment as being akin to the saying you sometimes see at mechanics shops or suppliers counter areas."Lack of planning on your does not constitute an emergency on my part"If the work slows down in the winter, shouldn't the tradesmen who are effected plan for it rather than sharing their problem with every other legitimate employee?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
If the work slows down in the winter, shouldn't the tradesmen who are effected plan for it rather than sharing their problem with every other legitimate employee?
Union tradespeople must work according to their union's contract which stipulates that they can only work for union contractors. During the time I was a union member we were called to work by the local union according to our postion on the work list.
A member's postion on the list was determined by when he was laid off his last job. In order for this system to work fairly for all members, no personal initiative was allowed in seeking employment. All members must wait to be called by the local.
So...the contactors call the local whenever they need a carpenter, the local calls the next person on the list.
During the time off, the member collects unemployment benefits which are paid for collectively by the contractors he/she has worked for previously according to the hours worked for each of those companies.
As previously mentioned, the contractors anticipate paying their employees unemployment benefits as part of the cost of each job. It's an important part of having a skilled labor force available them, when needed.
Edited 6/2/2008 9:32 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
During the time off, the member collects unemployment benefits which are paid for collectively by the contractors he/she has worked for previously according to the hours worked for each of those companies.
I wonder how many members collect unemployment and work for a non-union shop while doing so? http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
Thanks all! I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing,, reno's! And Hopefully more timber framing with my good buddy mark at Whippletree post and beam. It's really the timber work I want to do. I think there might be a new nuclear plant going up an hour from me,, so can always sell my soul for five or ? years,,,
Will make contact with the union for fun some day,,,
Thanks for all the responses!
dave
I wonder how many members collect unemployment and work for a non-union shop while doing so?
That's not only against the rules, it's misdemeanor fraud. Any employment which is on anyone's books will show up at the state employment office in short order.
The minimum, first time penalty is having to repay the benefits from the period in question and losing benefits for a period to be determined by the seriousness of the offense.
Assuming they are put on the books.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
"no personal initiative was allowed in seeking employment.""One of the better aspects of being a union member in NY State is that it's easier to qualify for and receive unemployment benefits when there's no work. Being a trade union member means that the state employment office can't demand any job searches from you, as they can from non-union workers. ""Also, knowing how long you'll be out of work allows opportunities for vacations while collecting unemployment benefits. "For me, those statements would take all my motivation to do a good job for my employers."As previously mentioned, the contractors anticipate paying their employees unemployment benefits as part of the cost of each job. It's an important part of having a skilled labor force available them, when needed."Are you saying the union employers pay into unemployment "coffers" over and above what the state system requires?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
For me, those statements would take all my motivation to do a good job for my employers.
Your motivation to do a good job is supplied by your employer. If you don't produce quality work at their expected rate, you get laid off with zero warning. Even showing a less than enthusiastic attitude is enough to send you down the road, quickly.
Union carpentry isn't fun or usually even pleasant. It's assembly line work, often dangerous and physically demanding.
There is no house carpentry in most local unions. Usually it's just heavy concrete forms and interior commercial work...metal stud and sheetrock in noisy, concrete caverns with bad air and poor light.
Edit: Where do non-union people get the idea that union members' jobs are protected or secure? That's just not the case. Contractors use their power to lay off/fire as a fear provoking weapon. Only at times of full employment do they have to back off and be more careful about how they relate to their employees.
Edited 6/3/2008 3:50 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
"Union carpentry isn't fun or usually even pleasant. It's assembly line work, often dangerous and physically demanding."Amen.I was a union plasterer doing historic finishes, castings & ornamental work for a couple of years. We did a lot of churches theaters & state houses, but sometimes there was heavier commercial work.
By that time I had over 20 years experience as a residential carpenter doing renovations & restorations. I often had to work along side all the unions on these jobs including the carpenters. My experience of them and their work was that they were usually a great bunch of guys (only saw 2 women during that time), and 90% of the work they did was exactly what you say, steel studs, sheetrock, form building etc. Any trim was always screwed in and any detail work was often very sloppy. One time I had an occasion to have my coping saw out and I was joining wood trim work to use as a casting pattern. Some of the carps came over and watched and it turns out they never knew what a coping saw was used for. I learned to keep my mouth shut, but it was hard watching some of them.
Not dogging the union boys because God bless 'em somebody's gotta do what they do, banging out the commercial production work. I like the idea of the apprentice though. That certainly seems to have disappeared off the carpentry landscape. I eventually left plastering because the company wanted me to travel. The other reason is that being in the union was about the union, not the craft or the work. Everything was so political and I realized I wasn't really union material. I went back to my hammer, planes & chisels.I wonder though, do the big condo & residential builders like Toll Bros. or Pulte use union?
I wonder though, do the big condo & residential builders like Toll Bros. or Pulte use union?
There are residential locals and also some locals with separate residential contracts. They always work for much less money than what is called "heavy and highway" work, what we've been discussing.
Residential is very pleasant and less dangerous than a lot of the commercial work.
I wonder how many residential carpenters would like doing beam bottoms on high steel without safety lines or nets? That's a type of concrete form, placed around steel beams as part of pouring floors on high rise buildings. I did it for one job, back when I was young and stupid.
It requires walking an eight inch wide steel beam and sitting down on it while carrying form materials. It was often necessary to step over a man who was already seated and then move on, all while carrying a double arm load of cut 2X4s.
There are open floors below with men and equipment in motion all around but you can't let all that distract you, not if you want to live long enough to eat lunch. This kind of work is done during all seasons except winter...on cold and windy days too.
Anyway, never met any union members who do residential so I don't know the answer to that question.
On the other hand, I've known many union carpenters who have the full skill set, as a result of building homes prior to joining the union.
We all ended up in the union for the pay and benefits, not because it was an easier life. We may not have made any real financial progress but we had good health care with little or no co-pay.
Edited 6/3/2008 1:07 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Amen to the everything was so political statement.
Some people may actually enjoy that stuff, but i didn't (don't) like it one bit. It took awhile for me to figure out how to deal with the politics of it, and my advice to anyone considering union is to try to avoid that aspect of it.
they will encourage attendance at the meetings, and if you have the opportunity to attend the training classes they offer those too will be peppered with the union propaganda. you just have to learn how to brush the politics aside.
like i said before, what i had to do was just learn to smile and nod, and go along without getting caught up.
not all of the union work is the mundane boring unpleasant stuff, although there will be a lot of that but a few years ago i had a relative ask me why I waited so long to go into business for myself (which I now no longer do because of the economy).
my answer was that if it wasn't for being in the union i never would have been able to work on the incredible projects i was involved with. if you don't agree to join a union you don't get to work on the retrofit of the golden gate bridge, the walt disney concert hall in downtown LA, etc etc. those projects were pretty cool to be involved with. I am certain my grandkids will be impressed when i point and tell them I built it.
If the work slows down in the winter, shouldn't the tradesmen who are effected plan for it ............
That's how my folks did it, Jon. Pop was an Operating Engineer working out of IUOE Local 513 (St. Louis) thru the '50's, '60's, and '70's. He went like a bat out of he!! from late spring thru early fall every year and used unemployment, odd jobs, and savings to get thru the winters. Money was a little tight during the winter, but we did ok.
He helped me get into the union in '63 and I paid for college building highways. I worked my arse off between Memorial Day and Labor Day and made enough to pay for the next year of school.
His one great rule was that I didn't make it a career. One year, I was thinking of dropping out of school and working. One day at lunch, the super told me that he didn't care if I went back to school but that I wouldn't be on his job after Labor Day. The rest of the crew agreed 'cause nobody wanted to pizz off my old man. - lol
anyone who has ever read your posts or looked at your work (that design on the scaffolding/access stair was brilliant) realizes you are above average intelligence. you do not need a union, and it sounds like you have no use for them. i am surprised at your position on the issue, that you don't see the use they are to the part of society that is not as gifted as you.
in my own personal experience with unions i have seen some of both sides. there are many for whom the union brings them up, and they take advantage of the system.
there are also those people who are the salt of the earth, honorable people that put others and whats good for the group first. they don't need the union like you but they stay in to do the good work.
most are just in the union when they can be because it benefits them, simple economics - it has better pay, benefits, and at least a little bit better security in a very volatile construction industry, the way the heath benefits system alone works is reason enough to have unions.
i have never understood the extreme pro or con union positions. i just don't see how any intelligent person can lump them as all bad or all good. i can understand complaints or praises of specific issues, but the lump i just don't get.
Seg
i have never understood the extreme pro or con union positions. i just don't see how any intelligent person can lump them as all bad or all good. i can understand complaints or praises of specific issues, but the lump i just don't get.
Well said, especially the first sentence, which I find is usually from lack of knowledge on the subject, like in this case with McDesign.
You can not deny the good that has been done by unions, nor the bad. That same statement also goes to the companies for which the unions were organized to combat.
Doug
when times are good, they never have enough men, when times are bad all you get are the "in" crowd .. never again would I become a union shop ..
Wane I am sorry to hear of your sour tastes for unions. I know all about the in crowd, but have found some good contractors who kept good crews working steadily. Do you do commercial or residential work?
you hit the nail on the head, but i dont see the problem with it like that.
are you speaking from an owners prespective? if so then i understand,
from an employees perspective - when they don't have enough people to man the jobs when you go to work they are glad to have you and treat you right, especially if you are a decent hand. - when its slow the only ones working are the "in crowd" and thats fine with me, if they don't need me i don't want to be there.
Find your local hall and call them. They are looking for Carpenters for a big refinery job in Canada, I am sorry i can't find the magazine we get with the article, but i know they are looking for men. I encourage anybody to join the union, i have never regretted joining.
you have some good and some not so good with the union, IMO the carpenters union is one of the worst/weakest unions. some of the other crafts have much better unions, more of a sense of comraderie, stick together better. depending on where you are of course.
the electricians are good, plumbers and pipefitters, ironworkers, boilermakers, operators, all good. the carpenters union is not in the same league IMO.
It used to be the Millwrights and Piledrivers, who were affiliated with the carpenters but still autonomous, were much better organizations, but with the reorganization of the Carpenters union several years ago (97-99) they pretty much all went to hill.
None of them (carpenters and affiliates) elect their own business agents, or vote on their own contracts, they get to vote on a delegate to a regional council, who then vote on the contract and business agent etc. sorta kinda like an electoral college, but different.
so if you do join up don't get caught up in all the union propaganda, and get all gung ho right away, just smile and nod, and go with the flow.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=105281.1
http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.