i was wondering… are most of you part of the carpenters union i always hear about? as i understand its more of a northern thing. when i searched for “local contacts” around North Carolina, the closest i found was in Atlanta. is it for residental carpenters, or commercial? what are the pros and cons?
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Replies
No.
Yes.
Security and freedom.
Non union men. Can't use more. Than 3 words. In a sentence.
Bwha ha ha
ha!!!!SamT
did i read? that answer correctly? did you answer? a multiple choice. question with yes?
Not this crap again!
dont eph with me. im just curious. i thought you guys might know something about it.
Shtick
dont eph with me.
Not F-ing with you, just that everytime this comes up its the same old tired sh!t.
Reading another of your threads, the one where you are explaining some of the troubles that you are having with your boss, I dont think the union is going to do anything about the problem, your not a member so what do you expect them to do.
You mention that you are going to have to work Mem. Day for strait pay, so what, if I'm correct there is no law that says that a holiday is by law a time and one half pay day. I dont belong to a union, I do know that I'm not working Monday, and I'm getting paid for it.
If you want to join the union by all means do so, its a different kind of work than most of the people here are doing.
Doug
youre right. time and a half is not required. double pay is required. if one works on a holiday... one receives double pay on that holiday. thats the law. not my law. the feds law. it is also required that if one person tells you when to be at work, when you can leave work, and gives you direction all day... then that person is your boss. therefore, you are the employee. said boss must take taxes out. must provide workmans comp, and must pay time and a half after 40 hours. thats the way its supposed to be. thats the way i had it until i moved here
i asked about the union because i didnt know if it worked like the machinist union. they will represent anyone. doesnt matter if youre a member or not
i have many of my own theories as to why contractors here try to get away with treating us like we dont know whats going on, but i really should shut up. because now... the vein has been tapped... i could go on complaining for a long long time. when i start, i have a hard time stopping
Shtick
If you are being treated wrong then by all means you should do something about it. Only you know what you are capable of doing, I don't know if you can afford to just quit and go find another job, or if there are other jobs available in the area. You have to decide that.
The union thing is not good or bad, I think you will find that on this site the majority are not and don't feel the need for a union. That's not to say that there is anything wrong with union work or workers. I for one could not do what I do if I was a union carp/cabinet maker.
You say that you don't know why contractors in your area treat workers the way they do. Where is the area that you work?
I cant imagine that all contractors are doing things completely unethical/illegal. Maybe you just need to look elsewhere for work.
You mention double pay for holidays, are you sure that your talking about the law requires this or is this a union thing that you have become accustomed to? I have never heard of that before, but I haven't heard of everything. I would double check.
Don't take the comment I made about "unions and this sh!t" personally, its just that this comes up frequently and not much good comes from it.
Doug
i wont say that its just me thats treated unfairly. its all of us in the area. there is no right way to say this, so im just gonna spit it out... the amount of migrant workers we have is outrageous. i dont blame them at all. i know theyre here trying to make a better life for themselves. i blame the employers. the immigrants come, and they know nothing of time and a half, paid holidays, safe working conditions, taxes being taken out, etc, etc... well, we all know why they dont know about taxes being taken out, but this is not the time, or the place. fact is, they work from 6 am to 7 pm, and dont think twice about it. they dont give a damn about benefits either. now, the employers are used to it, and they take advantage of everyone because of it. they dont wanna give anyone time and a half, paid holidays, or anything of the sorts. all of this ive grown accustommed to. its having to pay my own workmans comp that is making me mad. its not just my boss that does this. i turned down several jobs the last time i was looking, because of them telling me that they were gonna deduct for comp, but not take taxes out. fact of the matter is, the kids had to eat, and the rent had to be paid... i had to take a job. my pay is fair, but every week 100 bucks gets taken right off the top. and then, next january im still gonna be left with a hefty bill to give Uncle Sam. that is not at all fair. i like taxes being taken out. i like to claim only 1 dependant, even though there are 3. its my way of forcing myself to save money. the comp thing though... its so illegal. i cant deal with it anymore. if i wanted to pay my own comp... id be driving around with my name on the side of my truck... yes, im looking for a new job, but at times its pretty hard to find a crew you can communicate with, if you see what im saying.
you asked where im from... im from Charlotte, NC. i dont reccomend that anyone pursuing a career in construction comes here. maybe in 15 years, when all of the poorly framed houses have to be rennovated... maybe then would be a good time to be a remodeler in this area...
there is one company in the area that i dream of working for. theyre called Hubert-Whitlock Builders. theyre a company that does things the way we did in VA. meaning the same guy that dug your footers, will probably be the guy nailing your crown moulding up. ive applied there, but as im only 23, they said i didnt have enough experience. i understand that 6 years isnt a very long time, but it goes deeper than just 6 years. i mean, since my first time ever putting on a belt ive been a total student of the trade. ive read FHB since i was 18. as foolish as it sounds, all i want to do in life is be a good custom builder. as of now, im wasting time. im there for the money, and thats it. i dont like that at all. yeah, i think i know a lot, but im always looking to learn better ways. thats why i want to work for HWB. they were in some magazine a while back. they were in the top 101 of the best contractors to work for, in the entire country. their work has also been in several magazines. i really hope that i can get a job there one day
If you dream of working for that outfit, do your homework!
research all facets of the company, send them a resume, follow up phone calls. If you are persistent enough, trust me, you will get a good job with them. Have you ever contemplated sub-contracting work from them? That may be a good goal once you get a job with them and get your foot in the door. Start taking pictures of all of your work - keep a picture portfolio. Pictures speak a thousand words, when it comes to custom work. In your own time, challenge yourself with joinery techniques, fine tune crafting. The goal is to put yourself into a bracket above the next guy(migrant worker).
Whatever you do, & wherever you go - Look out for yourself & your family!
DON"T PROCRASTINATE! MAKE IT HAPPEN!
DREAMS DON"T COME to YOU / YOU HAVE TO CHASE THEM DOWN!
Shtick...sounds like you`ve got some decisions to make....and they don`t sound all too simple.
I was in a similar position to yours not too many years ago. You`re a good deal younger than I am....I think that works in your favor.
All I can recomend is that you don`t hesitate and don`t try and convince yourself your current employment situation will get better....it won`t....not unless you make it so.
Weigh all of your options and decide what changes are necessary....and then make them.
All the best to ya!J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Shtick
I read your response to me, I live in TX, with the exception of maybe Calif. I doubt that there are any more illegal workers in this country than there are here.
I just moved here a little over a year ago, I had no problem getting a job, I can go get another one tomorrow if I chose(I say that with fingers crossed) I see the illegal workers every day, they are no threat to me or my job, they don't do what I do. That's what you have to do with your self, make sure you have something to offer that the other guy doesn't. It sounds like you are trying to put yourself in that position. It takes time and the desire to learn. Be persistent and don't give up.
If there was a certain place I wanted to work at they would get to know me very well, cause I would be hounding them to death. Just don't be obnoxious about it.
There are some very smart people(I'm not one of them) on this site, listen to the advice that you get and good luck to you.
Doug
the company i spoke of, HWB... i actually found out about them by accident. one sunday i got the paper, and read the classifieds. all the ad said was experienced carpenter wanted. i called and left a message. they called me on monday, and asked me to come in with a resume. i was pretty suprised that i needed a resume. anyhow, i went in tuesday morning. first of all, i couldnt believe it when they were giving me directions to the office... i couldnt believe that i was really going to an interview in this part of town. i walked into the office, and theres Mr Whitlock on the covers of all these magazines and whatnot. i was pretty shocked. anyway... turns out i was the first to call, the first to show up, and 5 weeks later when the position still hadnt been filled, the only one still calling. as it stood last time i talked to them, no one got the job. no one had the amount of experience they wanted. i asked, "are you looking for a foreman, or a carpenter?" they said they didnt want a lead carpenter, just a good carpenter that would be in every day.
anyhow, i think i really messed up part of my application. there was a question that was pretty much "why should we hire you?" i dont think i answered that one very well. i gave a very short answer. i wanted to say a whole lot, but for some reason i decided id better keep it short. i think i went too short. i want to write a cold letter to them explaining exactly why i want a job there, and exactly what i bring to the table. maybe some good could come from that. im taking my time with it though, because i want it to be perfect.
A little sage advice from someone who has read alot of construction resumes.........
Get the chip off your shoulder and act like an experienced carpenter........On a hill by the harbour
this chip on my shoulder youre referring to... what is it?
ie what do you mean?
if youre assuming that im one of those dudes that comes out and says i can do everything, isnt the least bit scared of hieghts, and i "used to run my own crew", and then turns out to know nothing past nail the board on the X, youve been mislead. as i said... i take every job as a learning experience in the quest to one day do it better then everyone else
shtick,
This is what your chip looks like:
if youre assuming that im one of those dudes that comes out and says i can do everything, isnt the least bit scared of hieghts, and i "used to run my own crew", and then turns out to know nothing past nail the board on the X, youve been mislead. as i said... i take every job as a learning experience in the quest to one day do it better then everyone else
I realize that you can't see it as a chip.
If you ever do, you will have the job you really deserve.
Samt
Thanks Sam,
I have been agonizing over the reply to that one.
I am still working on the reply though.........
On a hill by the harbour
Just to add some information: in Atlantic Canada, union carpenters work on industrial jobs, some commercial. There is no such thing as unionized residential carpenters, and even the union doesn't want it this way.
As far as paid holidays goes, here an employer has to pay a minimum of 4% vacation pay; for hourly paid employees, this can be paid as a 4% vacation pay adder to the regular paycheck. Also, if a statutory holiday falls on a day when the employee would regularly be scheduled to work, the employer has to pay the employee what they would normally be paid....more than, 44 hrs per week, the rate has to be 1.5 times minimum wage. Compensation applies for employers with more than, I think it's 12 employees, and must be paid by the employer.
And, if your employer dicks you around on this, you complain to the labour dept.
maybe youre expecting me to argue back, i really dont know, but... im pretty much drawing a blank as to what to say in rebuttal. i have no rebuttal, because i really (as you stated) dont understand the problem. maybe one day ill figure the problem out, and in turn my boss will stop making me pay for my own workmans comp, and maybe even take taxes out...
If your biggest problem is not having taxes taken out the do like the rest of us self employed and send in quarterly tax payments. I do and I get a refund every year.
You also said something about having taxes withheld would be the only way you could save money. Kid, you need to talk with a financial planner.
In Connecticut if you work for the same outfit all year you are ultimately an employee which means your employer is responsible for comp. That varies from state to state. Make sure you know the law.
you sound like the type of guy who thinks if he works hard and learns everthing about the trade he possibly can and in turn applies that to his work. In my book thats a good thing but it wont buy you a cup of coffee in the union.
Or, you know, there is a solution: if your boss is doing something illegal with your pay, there's this thing available in the US - called the legal system. I dunno, but I've heard that's what it's for.....
>>youre right. time and a half is not required. double pay is required. if one works on a holiday... one receives double pay on that holiday. thats the law. not my law. the feds law
Uhmmm, I don't think so, but then, whadda I no?
SamT
Your right.
http://www.lectlaw.com/files/emp11.htm
The FLSA does not require employers to provide:
-- vacation, holiday, severance or sick pay;
-- lunch breaks, rest periods, holidays off, or vacations;
-- premium pay for weekend or holiday work;
-- pay raises or fringe benefits;
-- a discharge notice, reason for discharge, or immediate payment of
final wages to terminated employees.
These matters are for agreement between employers and employees or
their authorized representatives. Sometimes they may be required by
a State law.
HOW THE FEDERAL WAGE AND HOUR LAW APPLIES TO HOLIDAYS
About holidays...
Compliance with the FLSA is determined on a workweek basis, which is
a fixed and regularly recurring period of seven consecutive 24-hour
periods. When a State or federal holiday falls within a workweek, it
is treated no differently by the FLSA than other days within that
week.
Employers may require employees to work on State and federal holidays
at regular pay or with premium pay, or they may give their workers ####holiday off, either with pay or without pay.
Under the FLSA, overtime pay is required for hours worked over 40 in
a workweek. Only those hours actually worked on a holiday are
counted for overtime pay purposes; that is, holiday hours which are
paid for but not worked are not counted as hours worked in
determining whether overtime pay is due in that workweek.
State holidays are established by the states, and they differ from
state to state. Federal holidays are established by the Congress and
apply only to the federal establishment, although many of them are
generally observed.
The FLSA does not require employers to provide:
Don't forget that the federal overtime laws only apply to companies making over a certain gross amount. It used to be 400k.
State overtime laws may be even easier to apply.
You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
Yes, both choices are correct, more so in some areas than others.
SamT
I'm in northern New England. It's very seldom that light construction carpenters are in a union. Most of the union guys work heavy construction, bridges, roads, etc. If you are union and out of union work then you sit and wait for a union job. If you are non-union, wages are generally lower, benefits are almost non-existent, you negotiate on your own behalf, you work where you want to.
i figured it was more for heavy construction stuff. theres 2 main reasons i asked...
1. a guy from work is relocating to Boston soon. i said "thats kinda cool. thats where they do all those This Old House houses, and a lot of the stuff in FHB" (i meant the N.E. area. not Boston in particular) ... then my boss said "yeah, but those guys are all union guys" .... i wanted to see how true this was. again, this goes to show that my boss really has no idea what hes talking about, whenever he opens his mouth. i am convinced that the only way this guy is in business for himself is because he couldnt cut it working for anyone else .... he can kinda frame, but as a carpenter, or even a "construction worker", hes flat out niave. the man has never even taken part in pouring concrete. not once. .... thats a whole other conversation though. dont even let me get started on his ignorrance of home building
2. the construction business in this area is a bit, for lack of a better term, corrupt. its common practice for bosses to make the employees pay for their own workmans comp. not just my boss... lots of bosses (that is by far my biggest complaint. the rest is sort of icing on the cake). its all but impossible to find a company that will actually take time to take taxes out. paid holidays??? yeah right. not that i had anything planned, but im still a bit annoyed that ill be working memorial day for regular pay. time and a half? no way. maybe he thinks i dont know whats up, but sadly for him, i know the laws. ive already complained to the state wage and labor people. im calling the feds tomorrow. i was curious to know if i should maybe contact the union, and see if they want any part in it .... i feel bad about complaining. i dont want to go after him as a person. i guess a good way to put it is... he will be an example for all the other bosses like him.
Edited 5/19/2004 8:53 pm ET by shtick
"the man has never even taken part in pouring concrete. not once."
smart man!
I like him already ....
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
I am a retired union carpenter, Phila.Pa and surrounding counties. I'll make this short, if you get the opportunity to work union then go for it. I had and still have health coverage, prescription allowance etc. Retired with livable pension. I have several friends that are nonunion carpenters that are still working because they have to. Two of these fellows are in their late sixties. It's too late for them but I imagine you are a young fellow, give the union a try and I doubt you will regret it.
mike
Life is full of choices.. My oldest brother is a union electrician in Pennsylvania and he loves it. He is out of work a lot, but he was never really motivated to do anything other than watch television. My dad was a union truck driver, Teamster, and he would smack anyone who bad-mouthed a union. He had great benefits and always worked for the same company. (We lived in Connecticut, a suburb of NY) My younger brother was in a union years ago, but felt it was holding him back. He went to a non-union company and progressed up the food chain. His benefits are not as good as my union brother, but he makes a whole lot more money as management. My non-union brother saves a lot and invests wisely for retirement. So the bottom line is do you want to rely on a union, or do you want to rely on your own abilities. My non-union brother works harder and steadier, but he also seems to take pride in his work. I am not bashing unions, I am just giving you two examples of two brothers. Both are very pleased and content with their own situation, and neither bashes the other. Here in Virginia we have “Right to work” laws which prevent closed shops, union participation not mandatory. My opinion is if you are highly motivated and want to advance up the food chain, unions are not the route, unless you want to be a union official.
Regards
Mark