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Unique foundation repair?

| Posted in Construction Techniques on December 11, 2003 08:13am

Hi all:

I’ll try to make this brief. A 100 year old home I may potentially buy for a family member has a brick foundation that is buckled-in about three inches with a long horizontal crack.  It is the gable end wall, with floor joists PARALLEL to the foundation wall.  The cause is a large oak tree that must come down. Framing looks pretty standard stick style, not ballon or post and beam.  Due to severe money restraints and concern about tying into the existing crumbling brick I’m searching for a way to AVOID jacking the wall from the outside and building a new foundation with block.

I’d like to build a new wood-framed foundation in the basement to carry at least part of the weight of the wall, and just leave the buckled brick wall alone.  But, the joists are parallel, which means that it is impossible to pick up the weight of the wall over the rim joist because a new interior foundation would sit too far inside.  Blocking between the first two joists would give bearing for an interior foundation wall, but you can’t cantelever a whole house wall over 12 inches of blocking! The nails would simply pop out and the inside joist would head heavenword.

So: here is my idea on which I’d like advice.  Suppose I tear out the plaster from the interior first floor outside wall exposing the original studs.  Then, I lay down a new plate on the floor and I sister up new 2×8 or 2×10 studs to the original studs so that they extend out to the new plate.  Now I have created a much wider first floor interior wall that is structurally tied to the original wall AND that now bears weight much further into the structure.  Now, I go into the basement and put in blocking between the rim joist and the next floor joist.  Next, I install a beam under the blocking and either a new wood-framed foundation wall or columns on footings.  The idea is that by widening the interior wall, I will have moved the load enough inward so that I can now build a new foundation wall inside the old one and still pick up the load.  The wide first floor interior wall can be dressed up with built-in bookshelves and shelving, etc.  Is this just too insane?  Is there a better way?

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  1. Piffin | Dec 11, 2003 08:38pm | #1

    Since this is under the gable end wall, there is not roof load on it, unless there is a ridge beam sending a point load down in the center. Since the floor joists run with it, there is no floor load on it.

    Therefore, it is not a load bearing wall. I sounds just like one that I replaced foundation for a year and a half ago. I just knocked out the blocks and rebuilt.

    You should have someone local confirm this for you before proceeding, but just think of the money your membership here has just saved you!

    .

    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. jpainter | Dec 11, 2003 09:29pm | #2

      Piffin:

      Granted, the gable end walls have significantly less load than the other walls, but there is still weight there from the two-story wall above.  In this case, the crack in the brick foundation runs almost the entire foundation wall, so it would be fool hardy to simply remove the brick and rebuild without any temporary support.  In the past, I have scabbed on plates across the studs from the outside to use as jacking points.  This provides temporary support while you rebuild.  In this case, though, I'm trying to avoid that so that I can save the money that would then be needed to reside the house, rebuild the foundation, etc.  Hence my idea detailed earlier.

      To the point you made, however, it is true that there is much less weight than on the other walls, but it is not true that the gable end foundation walls support no weight.  Perhaps you could get away with knocking down a few feet of a gable end foundation for a short time while you rebuild, but more than that I think would be asking for trouble.

      Edited 12/11/2003 1:31:35 PM ET by jpainter

      1. VaTom | Dec 11, 2003 09:52pm | #4

        To the point you made, however, it is true that there is much less weight than on the other walls, but it is not true that the gable end foundation walls support no weight.

        Awhile back I speculated on some land that included a 100 yr old house.  Clearing the trash to find out what was there, I discovered that the back brick foundation wall had collapsed for 20'.  This wasn't the gable end, but a bearing wall.  The 2x4  shelf supports in the basement, sitting on a dirt floor and nailed to the floor joists with just 2 nails, were carrying half the house. 

        I didn't see much value in the place and pulled a demoliton permit, to the consternation of the local officials.  Ended up selling it before demolition.  New owner pulled out the crumbled wall, with the shelving still supporting the above floor, jacked it up to some semblance of level (4") and had a block wall laid.  I was surprised that so little could hold up a house, but those shelves, with help from the siding, had been doing the job for several years.  Being oak probably had something to do with it.

        Not a recommendation, but I'd be looking at bracing it like you think won't work, and replacing the wall. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

      2. Piffin | Dec 11, 2003 09:59pm | #5

        There is a difference between load bearing walls and non load bearing that simply have some weight to them. The weight you have described is only the dead load weight of the wall itself. I doubt you would see more than 1/2" deflection in the whole.

        Maybe I am just foolhardy like you say, but I have done this on half a dozen houses, and have one up in the air right now that fits the same description. As you can see in this photo, when we were getting ready to lift it off, the entire granite foundation blocks were out from under this gable end wall- thirty feet worth. Then, after it was moved, we replaced the rotted sill timber, while the wall was afloat above. The interior trim, the hundreds of nails, the shear of the plaster, the exterior sheathing, all combine to support each other.

        However, your conservative approach is worth heeding. It takes experience to know how far you can go - which is why I suggested an experienced local..

        Excellence is its own reward!

        1. jpainter | Dec 11, 2003 10:25pm | #7

          LOL!  Hmmm... Some very interesting replies (and picture).  I, too have had experience with walls that were floating in space with no support, but I thought it best not to create such a situation with an old house that might suddenly settle.   Maybe I'm overly concerned with the safety issue and maybe there really isn't much chance of settling. My original idea was to avoid rebuilding the brick which is in bad shape.  I was especially concerned about where new block would meet the old crumbling brick in the corner, as far as tying-in, water seepage, etc.

          Piffin's picture is certainly reassuring! Still, rebuilding 16 feet of brick foundation is fun I'd rather avoid.  Perhaps my interior wall idea IS overkill.  Is it possible that there is so little weight from the gable wall that I COULD get away with blocking between the rim joist and next joist in and then build a new interior foundation wall? Is there a metal connector or plate of some sort that could beef up the blocking connection?  Such a fix could be accomplished in one day.  Removing and rebuilding the brick foundation wall would take much longer and raise the specter of the town inspectors!  Do I just need to get over it and replace the bad wall, or can I make an interior "supplemental" foundation wall work?

          1. Piffin | Dec 12, 2003 12:19am | #9

            You probably could do those alternate things you are describing but it seems as though you have a mental block against doing the masonry, which is the real problem as I understand it all.

            The inspector/permit issue can be daunting also. Have you called to find out the limits? Most places ahve a dollar limit, square foot limit or "structural repair" test for wheather a permit is needed.

            My advice was based on thinking that the adjacent brick walls are sound because they are bearing the load. If they too are crumbling, then you would need a more conservative approach..

            Excellence is its own reward!

          2. jpainter | Dec 12, 2003 12:56am | #11

            Piffin:

            I just have a mental block period! I guess the real problem is that my own first house required me to jack up almost every wall and rebuild the foundation from the ground up. I'm still emotionally scarred from the experience! Actually, I'm not afraid of the masonry work, its just that in this particular case the money shortage and the fear of getting the town involved made me think of alternative methods.

            After reading all the posts, I'm thinking the best method might be to first try and pull the existing wall back in line with come-alongs and cable.  If I dig out the exterior, string cable through the wall and attach it to a 2x on the inside, then gently try to persuade the wall back into plumb I might get lucky. Then I could just kill off the oak tree that caused the damage and repoint/parge the wall. I've parged with fiberglass reinforced cement before with good results. If that fails and the foundation wall crumbles,  I can just rebuild with block.  After seeing your picture, I feel better about the risk.  Of course, this particular house might have other structural issues that I don't know about, but I could drive off that bridge when I come to it.

            Thanks for the ideas and the amazing picture!

          3. csnow | Dec 12, 2003 12:59am | #12

            A twist on my prior suggestion:

            I have seen a house supported using fabricated steel [upside down] "L" posts.

            In this scenario, a relatively deep footing was dug just inside of the [stone] wall.

            A vertical I-beam was embedded into the pour.  The top of the I-beam had a short horizontal "L" that projected under the sill to support the structure.

            Only small holes were poked in the stone to receive the I-beam, so minimal patching.

        2. BowBear | Dec 12, 2003 12:04am | #8

          Piffin, you continuously amaze me! As a DIY I feel that I do a lot of stuff that perhaps I shouldn't and some how get away with it. I never would have thought that the house would not collapse with that little support.

          An ex-boat builder treading water!

          1. Piffin | Dec 12, 2003 12:38am | #10

            That's OK. I constantly amaze me too.

            LOL

            The house actually is well supported, in just the right places..

            Excellence is its own reward!

  2. csnow | Dec 11, 2003 09:52pm | #3

    Your support method sounds too complicated IMHO.

    Does it have a heavy sill?

    Consider digging out say just 2 linear feet of the brick wall at a time.  This can be done from the inside. Pour a footing, and support with a jack.  Dig and pour additional footings with appropriate spacing, until the structure is supported on jacks.

    Adjust jacks for level, then place permanent steel columns.

  3. mike4244 | Dec 11, 2003 10:09pm | #6

    Is the bowed wall causing structural problems above the foundation wall? If not then you may just contain the brick foundation so it does not move any more. One way is too dig outside the foundation and install a concrete deadman. Then either steel channel or pressure treated timbers on the inside face. Turn buckles and galvanized wire rope connect the deadman to the timbers. You could pull the wall fairly straight also, you would have to repoint the brick . Another way is to pour a concrete retaining wall inside against the brick. It would not have to be thick as you are just keeping the rest of the wall from bowing more. Naturally there has to be an adequate footing below. Consult an architect or structural engineer first.

    I imagine a 6" thick wall would suffice. It may or may not be feasible to do this the latter way depending on access to the basement to pour concrete.Do not attemt to form this wall if you haven't done concrete formwork before. It would pay to hire a carpenter that has experience in this to help you. A one sided form exerts much more hydrulic pressure than a standard two sided formed wall.

    mike

  4. user-3146 | Dec 12, 2003 05:39am | #13

    We had this problem on an old house, and we decicded to build a butress against the wall. If you can get the concrete down there it may be worth the efort. It was easy for us becuase we had removed every floor joist in the house and had lots of space to get that truck in.

    Jason

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