Replies

1. 
   FramerJay | Apr 09, 2003 05:27am | #1

   GEOB21,

   First off let me say I understand where you are coming from, even though I am not a sub or GC, but a helper for a carp crew. My boss tells me all kinds of horror stories about everything related to being a legitimate business. But having said that, yes I do believe it is the homeowner's responsibility to check for a license, insurance, references, etc.

   I occasionally do side jobs (unlicensed) and I tell people beforehand that I am not licensed and that my insurance is my Discover Card; i.e., none of my side projects are so big that my Discover Card could not pay for my liability if something were to get screwed up. Most people are okay with my lack of licensing, but then again my projects are very small in scope or difficulty (realtively speaking).

1. 
   xMikeSmith | Apr 09, 2003 05:43am | #2

   geo... well, don't let it get to you....you sleep better at night playing by the rules...

   also.. most states start out with loose rules... then when the pols feel the heat from the consumers, they tighten up the regs  which you are already complying with..

    another thing... the longer you are in business, the easier it is to figure out that you are not competing with the bottom feeders... you swim with the dolphins..

   the customers who are looking for unlicensed contractors are not your bread & butter.. use it as a marketing tool...Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

2. 
   JDRHI | Apr 09, 2003 05:57am | #3

   I`m curious as to what you mean by "the state"? Who exactly are you contacting? Where I am requires county licensing. Have you placed your reports with local building depts.? These are the guys losing the denaro from unfiled projects. I know in my town they spend a portion of the day cruising around and "snooping" the neighborhood. Any unfiled job is shut down pronto.

   But like Mike said, if the homeowner is hiring these guys, chances are they couldn`t afford you anyhow.

   Anecdote: I had a potential client complain to me that the line item in my estimate for overhead was half what another "contractor" quoted her for the entire job. I wished her good luck as we hung up the phone. (I`d love to see how that kitchen turned out.)

   J. D. Reynolds

   Home Improvements

   "DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"

3. 
   roofdoc | Apr 09, 2003 06:11am | #4

   well lets not get me to revved up about this after being in roofing contracting all my life for others I decided to go and get licensed myself.I have come to realize that its all about the money that most cities get though the permit and licesne procedures. They seem to forgotten that the building code are there to protect the public.

   In the state I live in even the testing process has been outsourced to a company that is not even in this state and actually in a different region, so how can they know what is right for this area. Even had to point out to the state all the things that the testing company was doing that did not go with the state rules

   Had a intresting coversation with the local building inspector at the last chamber commerce meeting who's attitude in relation to a curent building code "never had to before so why now"

   So I guess I am what I am saying is if we don't as legit contractor's don't stay on the local city and state goverments they will just continue to backslide into  lazy fat city employees

4. 
   RW | Apr 09, 2003 06:20am | #5

   Wanna really get bent? Move to a state where there is no licensing. Now how does the customer know, even if they try to check? You can search the internet if you're dubious. The closest thing we ever had to licensing was a bill that passed a few years ago requiring anyone who does construction in the three largest counties to register (for $25) with Workforce Development. All they want to see is workmans comp. If you're solo, you register for free, since you don't have to carry WC insurance. This burns a lot of people up. Enacting such a law (we think) would help get rid of the "hacks". I guess, from what you say, that then depends on the level of enforcement. But Mike is right. You're probably not really competing with them for much of anything. Those customers tend to be looking for the blue light special rather than quality, and they get what they pay for.

   " Blessed are the forgetful: for they get the better even of their blunders" - Nietzsche

1. 
   ProDek | Apr 09, 2003 07:21am | #6

   I'm trying to figure out how I lost my last deck job by 30%. I even asked the customer if she would mind telling me where we differed in price.She gave me the whole breakdown on a $9100. deck , I was high on my stairs, footings, and tear down haul and dump of the old deck, and a little high on the railing price.

   All said and done this guy left $2700. on the table.

   So do I drive buy and see who he is? Do I report him to L&I?

   I'm tempted, cause this guy is using my drawings and design to build something he hasn't got a clue how to do. Come to think of it I'll bet the county would like to know if there is a permit for that deck. Bob

   "Rather be a hammer than a nail"

1. 
   xMikeSmith | Apr 09, 2003 07:27am | #7

   mmmm, bob.. i remember two jobs that i lost that were built from my plans..true scumbags

    now the plans never stay behind unless i have a deposit on the contract.....Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

1. 
   ProDek | Apr 09, 2003 08:25am | #8

   That's smart Mike. Maybe I will charge a plan fee to be credited back if they use my services. At least I'll get paid for my office time. I also put For Pro-Dek Use Only All rights reserved on all my drawings but have never taken anyone to court for using them. My drawings are 3d and topical but not to scale. I never show my framing plans. Have you been losing many jobs lately?

   I have been wanting to raise my labor rate but Man, I'm having a hard time getting jobs with my present rate now. Is $45.- $50. an hour unreasonable?

   I just had a plumber come and install a shower valve and he charged me $525. for 2 hours work and the customer provided the valve.Bob

   "Rather be a hammer than a nail"

2. 
   toast953 | Apr 09, 2003 08:33am | #9

   Mike,  were the owner's or the trades people , the "scumbags" ? I happen to be a bottom feeder, as my business card state's in big letters " Unlicensed Builder" it's right under my name Jim A Jensen. I'am kindof poking fun at you Mike,as you know there is good and bad in Life, this business is no different. Just as you have seen it, so have I, our former, Govenor Fife Symingtom, screwed a Pension fund out of 10 millon, 10 millon smacker's, he was a Developer. The biggest builder here went under, oh, about 3-4 years ago , screwed a LOT of trust worthy homeowner's. I carry WC,on those occasion's I have help, pay money in quarterly, cash jobs also reported. In the State of Arizona, I suppose, the State would like me to be Licensed, if I was a Contractor, I'am not , I'am just an unlicensed builder , small one man show, doing mostly work that  the Big boys don't want, at T and M plus%  Be Safe out there Jim J, Prescott Ariz.

1. 
   xMikeSmith | Apr 09, 2003 01:43pm | #10

   jim, glad to see you can still laugh.. that 's a good sign..

   in the first instance.. the scum was the owner.. twenty years later he still can't look me in the eye..

   in the 2d instance.. it was both..

   Jim, i know there are states where they make it almost impossible to maintain your integrity if you are trying to play by the rules... AZ & TX come to mind..some legislative mind set about we don't need no stinkin rules to protect workers and consumers

   but in both states.. the people you want to work for are the ones who are concerned that they can have confidence in their contractor and they are willing to pay more for the privelege.. you know already that you are better off staying home than taking a job you will lose money on..

   let the bottom feeders eat each other's lunch while you position your company to supply the confidence they will pay a premium for

   oh, and let's be careful out thereMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

2. 
   toast953 | Apr 10, 2003 08:23am | #15

   Mike , after 27 years, day in day out, I still enjoy my work, hell, I consider myself to be blessed, what an opportunity, wake up in the am,and go do something I enjoy. As we all know, there are those "situations" that do come up, always have and always will, that make me wonder why I'am in this business at all. Mike, you wrote about Legislative mind set, well you hit that Nail right on the Head, for the State of Arizona, is really eye balling the State Compensation Fund, they even disscussed cashing it out (read steal), and selling it to Private enterprize, politics, don't get me started. Be Safe out  there, Jim J.

2. 
   RW | Apr 09, 2003 05:04pm | #13

   bummer. If he's using something you designed, here that's illegal. Work product is what it's called, but I won't attempt to get more legal than that. If the design time takes me any significant amount of time, I have had some success in splitting the contract in two as a design/build. They pay for the design work, and should they choose to use your design and your drawings but not your hammer, they pay an extra fee for use of the work product, but you still retain ownership. I have one now they just paid the fee on since the guy awarded the job wrote out for them in his proposal that "no building permit will be obtained - unnecessary". HA! The HVAC sub already told me he's going to drive by the site and if there isn't a yellow tag on the door, he's calling them in. Maybe we can't get them for not being licensed, but no permit equates to the same thing. Work stoppage." Blessed are the forgetful: for they get the better even of their blunders" - Nietzsche

3. 
   migraine | Apr 10, 2003 07:46pm | #18

   If the guy is using your drawings and you didn't get paid from them, then I would ask the home owner for some reimbursement.  If they refuse(they probably will ) then I would contact the building department about both parties.  This is NOT blackmail.  Don't even mention contacting the building department, city, or state license board.

   Maybe next time, you will get the contract before suppling drawings or find a way to get paid for design time.   This should be a new topic in itself.

5. 
   andybuildz | Apr 09, 2003 02:13pm | #11

   Geob

          I had started a thread like this maybe a year ago. I got nothin but flack from the guys here which kind of pizzed me of.

   Most of the replying said that a liscensed contractor is no better than a unliscensed one and all the liscensing does is get more money for the county and that, that was the only reason for liscensing.

   I had to disagree for the most part because if a contractor is afraid to have their name on file somethings wrong.

   In my area you can't get liability or any insurance with out a liscense first which means passing the test. The test isnt all that dificult...mostly about the legal end which doesnt hurt like the laws such as having a separate acct to keep a portion of the paid amount  in escrow in case of trouble and disputes.

   The little bit of hassel to get liscensed alone indicates a builder has somewhat good intentions about being honest although maybe not 100%. They are also under file with the county where a homeowner can check complaints.

   The cost is minimal in comparrison to what you can earn.

   I have more than half my potential customers call into town hall with my liscense # before they hire me to see  my record.

   Any shmo can take out an ad ina Pennysaver but many of those that have gone out of their way to be on the up and up get liscensed have somewhat the integrity we need.Just my 2 cents.

   We need liscenced to all other businesses....why wouldnt a contractor?

   BE honest

              NAmaste

                          andy

    

   "Understanding yourself is like trying to bite your own teeth"

   Alan Watts

   
   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

1. 
   geob21 | Apr 09, 2003 04:23pm | #12

   Maryland government just pisses me off. They make rules then do little to enforce them and less to let the public know.

   I work in upscale areas and the homeowners are paying close to going rates. They are uneducated on the risks they take hiring unlicensed contractors. Just about everyone in this state needs a license IE painters,excavators,landscapers,carpenters etc. If youre getting paid to improve a home you need a license.

   Our building permits and contractor licensing depts do not interact. A homeowner can pull a permit then get an unlicensed hack to do the work and there is nothing the inspector can do.  And as for unpermited jobs every inspector I know  turns a blind eye to it when driving past. They will tell you it's just more work for them if they  close it down. 

   ___________________________________________________________If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?

2. 
   nino | Apr 10, 2003 07:20am | #14

   Andy, it's the other way around, you need insurance FIRST before you can get a license.

   I had insurance for the longest time before I got my license.

6. 
   NOTRIX1 | Apr 10, 2003 07:08pm | #16

   I have severly mixed feelings about this topic,

   I'm in CA. To be licensed here you need 4 years experience in any building field and have to pass a test that's half business/law and the other half trade. To get a classified contractors license you'll take the exam that's your specialty and there are about 50 classes.To be a general contractor I understand that you'll be given any one of a number of tests that focus on one area. So you may want to be a tile setter who does kitchen remodels and deals with electrical and plumbing you'll need to be a general or add on the other trades as you go. To be the general you may be given a test on concrete or rough framing.

   Now how in the heck does this make any sense at all?

   Now someone like me who has done several dozen remodels and I have knowledge of plumbing electrical etc and know how to do my job well is prevented from working in CA unless I can do it for less than $500. I know my limitations and don't do what I'm not 100% certain about. I've spent 1000's of hours working and studying my field of interest, I'll bet I can do a better job that 75% of the contractors out there who passed the test on roofing yet are remodeling kitchens.

   I't impossible to test thoroughly on every category to make a "true" general contractor I know but there should be some more broader categories that make sure some one like myself can competently tear apart your kitchen and replace it per order. I should be tested on plumbing, electrical and cabinetry, maybe some tile work etc... But if my tile work fails no big deal as compared to if I wire something the wrong way. I don't have to be an absolute expert but need to know and prove absolute basics of electricity and know my limitations and be constrained by those.

   The contractors board does nothing along those lines.

   I may be wrong but all the generals I've discussed it with say it's just this way.

   BTW I've always stayed within the law pretty much when working on my own although I was asked to do a job that ran over budget by $200 recently by homeowners request in additional work. So my $500 job was $700 and I'm a criminal!

   N

1. 
   rez | Apr 10, 2003 07:31pm | #17

   a criminal yep, you sucker, and I'll report your little lowlifeass to the authorities if I ever get ahold of ya. You take all the work away from me and I have to charge an arm and a leg to cover my overhead.

   So notrix, what city are you from?

   heh heh

    

   Edited 4/10/2003 12:33:02 PM ET by rez

1. 
   NOTRIX1 | Apr 10, 2003 08:53pm | #19

   Rez,

   I may have misled you. I don't solicite work and usually work for about $2000 a year on my own always doing a job as a favor for a friend that never would have been done other wise. Last job I wanted to see how good my tile skills were on my own-"could I lay out and do the job on my own?" I did it for $2.50 a sq. ft when all was said and done and did a great job! The tile contractor I work with couldn't touch it for the budget. The owner would have got some "lick and stick" linoleum and left it as is if I didn't volenteer to do the job. The renter now has a nicer place to live.

   I can and do legally work for less that $500 per job. I tell them I'm not a contractor and willingly recommend a contractor when it's beyond my skills. But like I said being a licensed contractor doesn't mean they can do it better than me. The contractor I work with mostly is a genral who specialises in tile work. He has no clue as to how to hang a door. He could fake it but I can do it way better, he'll let me work under his umbrella when these come up.

   Not one contractor has lost one dime because of my work so you can relax.

   N

1. 
   redrooster | Apr 10, 2003 09:56pm | #20

   Ahhh notrix- just pullin' your leg. Im on the other side of the continent too. Thought you would have seen that. Sorry for the jive.  -rez

1. 
   FrankB89 | Apr 11, 2003 02:48am | #21

   Rez....Did you change your screen name or are you that vicious Rhode Island Red that finally got the better of our old friend Rez.

   (your answer will tell me all I need to know)  heh heh! 

2. 
   rez | Apr 11, 2003 03:43am | #22

   what is that, the old joke about what's the dif tween a street woman and a rooster?

   Nah, after that computer thread and the talk about cleaning up the cookies and temp files, I successfully went in there and messed it up. A while back my Pop asked me about gardening web sites so I hooked him up with'Over the Fence' as RedRooster and somehow it worked its way thru the system to my post.

   Hey, wadda I know? Scares me and I'm fearless

    

    

3. 
   FrankB89 | Apr 11, 2003 04:38am | #23

   So does the Redrooster crow...or can we expect more ROARS? 

4. 
   rez | Apr 11, 2003 06:45am | #24

   Well he was out walking around in the snow the other day. That outta be worth something.