Hey All,
I just got a bid for rebuilding my failing masonry chimney on my 1915 house here in Oregon. It needs to be rebuilt from the roofline up and get a new cap installed. The chimney is unlined and serves a standard fireplace which will probably get used no more than a couple times a week. The chimney folks said that they would have to rebuild the entire chimney to install a ceramic flue liner (size difference) and that by removing part of the shelf(?) above the firebox they could squeeze in a steel pipe liner….but they thought that the chimney should be safe to use unlined for the fireplace especially with about 2/3 of the chimney being new work. Any safety concerns about that? Should I try to have the liner installed now or use it for a few years unlined and then install a liner (my thought being that I may install a woodstove down the road)?
As always the feedback from this group is awesome…Thanks for the help!
Replies
I am no expert in chimneys. Often the older chimney flues are larger than the new ones. It wasn't too long ago that you could buy concrete blocks and lay them on top of each other and put a flue liner in it and create a chimney.
The newer flues are smaller and run hotter to create more draft and better efficiency while also keeping the flue cleaner.
I would do a search on google.com and see what you might be able to do.
Sorry, maybe I'm not offering a clear question...
Question:
Is it safe to use an unlined but newly rebuilt masonry chimney with a
standard fireplace...or is a steel liner a must?
Thank you....
Vince have you checked out a cast in place
flu liner job, the contractor uses a inflatable
form that they insert into the flu with clearance spacers,
then inflate the form, then pump refractory grout
around the form ,after this dries they deflate and pull the form out,
this also stregnthens the chimney,
last time I checked the prices on this ,it was cheaper
than a stainless flu and a whole lot less invasive.
Edited 9/26/2006 8:42 pm ET by dedubya
I seem to recall a technique used for relining straight chimneys using a bell system that after the bell shape is dropped to the bottom of the chimney, it is vibrated as it is pulled back up and smoothes the sides of the fresh poured liner in the process then it is done again to provide a glaze.
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
There was a system like that 20 years ago - incredibly expensive. I guess it faded away. You had to buy a franchise. I think it was the Ahrens system. Yup - here it is:http://www.ahrenschimney.com/specification.html
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
dang yer good.
but ya didn't invent that system
We can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measureable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world. Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day
No, but I considered buying a franchise at one time.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
So it is a valid procedure that just never caught on?
Does it have it's roots in Europe?
We can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measureable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world. Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day
Yup and yup. I was looking at it in the late 70's, early 80's. At that time the franchise was $28K, IIRC. You got a couple of different size bells, the vibrator, some rods, and enough mix to do one small chimney. IIRC, they would only give me a protected franchise for Fayette County (where Lexington is), so someone else could buy one 20 miles away in a neighboring county, in theory. I wanted the entire metropolitan area which includes all counties touching Fayette and they wanted more money for each county. I think the fee was based on population.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
And the concept never caught on. It's practically unheard of now, at least to what I've seen.
So much for the francise operation. Sounds like they shot themselves in the foot.
We can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measureable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world. Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day
Looks like they're still in business. I hadn't thought of them in years, 'til you brought it up. Out of that business for 20+ years now.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
Seems the idea is still pretty much unknown to the man in the street, tho'. What most think of is SS liner.
I recall in George Nash's book 'Renovating Old Houses' a technique he gave for dropping pre mortared clay tile down from the top via a rope tied to an offset stick so the weight of the flue section would wedge the stick in that flue until it got placed in the chimney and the tension could be released and the rope bought back up for another section.
We can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measureable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world. Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day
I did that quite a bit. I built a tile dropper. It worked pretty well. Still had to cut into the chimney to do offsets and anything below them.
I also had a tool to break out the old tiles.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
So that style of operation is functional then. What is the smallest flue you ever lined that way?
I remember the tile breaker. Looked like it would be hell if it ever got away from someone.
help help as the blood splatters.
We can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measureable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world. Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day
>>>>>>>What is the smallest flue you ever lined that way?8"x8"
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
So the tile was a 6" dia in a 2 brick width then or was the flue liner itself 8" square.?
We can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measureable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world. Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day
Edited 9/27/2006 11:11 am ET by rez
>>>>>>>>>>was the flue liner itself 8" square.?yup
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
I did the ,check into franchise, bit also ,but with
the inflatable form method.18K for the grout pump-
14' trailer-and 2 forms and their [school] ,3days
of helping them grout chimneys, the price then was
about 35 $ a ft. not counting what ever masonry work
was to be done to go into the chimney to center up the
form in the flu, they did have one of the slickest ways of
removing the old liner out of a chimney i have ever seen
though
>>>>>>>>they did have one of the slickest ways of removing the old liner out of a chimney i have ever seen thoughI think that's where I got the tool Rez and I are talking about.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
was it a hardened metal cutter, that was attached
to a fiberglass cleanout rod with a cable or chain?
turned with a electric drill. When I worked in the
cement plant we used a system to clean out cement
silos that had gotten wet and set up ,said cement into
volkswagon chuncks. we used two humongus atlas-copco
compressors each capable of sustained pressure of over 200p.s.i.and
treemendous cfpm's.each manifolded into a single 6" high pressue line that necked
down to a 4" travel line then down to a 1and half rubber airline with a
hardened steel plate about 4" squareon the end, that was inserted into the
silo .then the compressores started that cutter whipped around
cutting into chunks like a 50 cal. though a watermellon. man a site
to behold!! DW
"Is it safe to use an unlined but newly rebuilt masonry chimney with a
standard fireplace...or is a steel liner a must?"
No and No. The chimney needs a liner. The liner doesn't have to be steel. Clay flue tiles, installed properly are safe, effective, inexpensive and probably the most common way masonry wbfp's are lined.
I don't think it is safe enough.
The risk is carbon monoxide poisoning from combustion gases getting into the house through the unlined brick.
Wood fires can produce huge amounts of CO.
I wouldn't burn one fire in it.
“Experience doesn’t bring wisdom, experience evaluation does. When you fail, stay down there for a while and figure out what went wrong. Don’t run away from your failures, evaluate them and learn from them.”
Dr. John C. Maxwell
I've got an old house with lots of fireplaces, and the first thing we did was have them restored. After learning about all the options, our chimneys were opened up like zippers, and internally parged with high temp morter, new fireboxes with firebrick, and new stacks / new brick from the roofline up. No flue liners at all. Four chimneys; one with (2) flues, two with (3) flues, and one with (4) flues
This was done by the most reputable chminey renovation company in Atlanta at the time (1992), and we do use a lot of them often.
Forrest
will they put that opinion in writing and do they haave liability inurance?
There have een two chimney fires on my island here in ten yeaars or so thaat leaaked fire thru the mortar to wood in back walls of closets so tht the house was on fire before anyone knew here was trouble.
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"about 2/3 of the chimney being new work"
It's the 1/3 that will kill you.
Aaron
I'm sure you will get lots of opinions on this. Flues didn't use to have steel liners (in fact they may not have had any liners) and many of them had no problems. But many of them did.
You'll never go wrong (in terms of safety) adding a stainless steel liner, properly installed.
You ever noticed that after the house burns down, the chimney is usually still standing?
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/