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Discussion Forum

upgrading wiring from house to shop

tab1 | Posted in General Discussion on February 1, 2005 10:40am

I’d like to re-use/recycle the wire that is presently running from my house service entrance to my shop–about 110′, in order to have 240 available there, for Mig (50 amp plug) or air compressor use .

Presently it is running under the eave of the house (40′ of copper 10-2 with ground, UF-B), which is then spliced to about 60′ of aluminum (3 seperate wires– one of which is bare strands, all the same size. (The ground and neutral of the copper are spliced to the bare strands of alum.). The insulated alum. wire APPEARS to say ‘Alcan S PE 1991’, and these are strung overhead, from the house to a pole mid-way and then on to the shop. If that doesn’t indicate the size wire, I’m not sure how to tell. The strands inside the insulation measure about 3/16″ across, total.

At some point in the past, one of the insulated alum wires was cut, both at the house and the pole, so it’s presently not doing anything.

As I HATE to throw anything away I’d like to use as much of this as possible but perhaps it will be more trouble than it’s worth. Thoughts I had:
1. Hook it up, as is, and see if it trips the breaker at the service entrance. Suspect the #10, at least, will be too small.
2. Buy more/larger alum wire to replace the #10 copper.
3. Replace all with copper. My chart says #6 = 2% drop at 115′. If copper, what type recommended for overhead?

Many thanks.
Thon

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Replies

  1. User avater
    IMERC | Feb 01, 2005 11:24pm | #1

    10/2 won't carry the load and not enough of conductors...

    alluminum triplex for the drop... 1/0 should be fine...

    proud member of the FOR/FOS club...

    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

    WOW!!!   What a Ride!

    1. tab1 | Feb 02, 2005 06:38am | #2

      Doh! Clearly not enough of the 10-2. <G>Can I splice the 1/0 alum to the alum I have and if so, using what?Thanks.
      Thon

      1. User avater
        IMERC | Feb 03, 2005 12:00am | #3

        look that AL wire over a bit better... should be some more numbers..

        it sounds like triplex...

        1/0 would be a very CAUTIOUS guess fer size..

        join them with split bolts and insiulate those with rubber tape and cover the rubber with 3M-33T tape..

        BTW.. be careful out there..

        proud member of the FOR/FOS club...

        Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

        WOW!!!   What a Ride!

        1. tab1 | Feb 03, 2005 05:22pm | #4

          <look that AL wire over a bit better... should be some more numbers..>I would have thought so too. It's been very exposed for 40+ (?) years, and it was tough finding what I did. Most of the writing I did find is pretty much gone.I was at the big boxes yesterday--didn't find any 1/0 alum. Closest they had was 2/0-2/0-2/0, at about $2.50/foot. #6 copper (THHN) was $ .43/foot. Will this work, and if so, can I splice it to the alum I have?<BTW.. be careful out there..>There's a breaker for this line, at the service entrance but I'm always cautious around those electrons. <G>Thanks.
          Thon

          1. User avater
            IMERC | Feb 03, 2005 08:01pm | #5

            Post a pic...

            at 40 YO I'd start from square one...

            that #6 copper isn't designed fer free air out side use.. you gonna put it in tube???

            how large of new panel did you say???

            proud member of the FOR/FOS club...

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

            WOW!!!   What a Ride!

          2. tab1 | Feb 09, 2005 05:45pm | #7

            Not exactly sure what you wanted the pic of, but here's what I got. This is the 10-2 attaching to the alum. (Hasn't been screwed back on to the house, pending finishing the roofing/siding/trim.)It will be free air. If I go copper, which types are OK?For the sub panel in the garage I hope to use the old main house panel, which I replaced--60A.Thanks.
            Thon

          3. Woodhandle | Feb 09, 2005 07:02pm | #8

            Careful here.   When running branch circuits to a shop, you gotta start at where the power company wiring from the pole and transformer enters the house at the main box and figure things out:   How much capacity in the main circuit breaker to the house?   How much load on the house circuits?   Everything has to be properly sized at the start.   So, if you have 200 amps at the house main breaker, you may have too much demand in the house to steal 50 or so amps for the shop.    

            10/2 wire is not enough for 50 amps, as said in other posts.   And, not a good idea to mix Aluminum and Copper wire, differences in expansion will forever give you problems with loose and hot connections.

            An, if you are using a MIG unit at 50 amps, you need at least a 100 amp circuit into the shop to allow for other things like lights, grinder, air compressor, etc.   Better is a 200 amp service.

            I put a 200 amp service in my shop.    Easy job, the power co. ran a set of overheads from the transformer on the pole out on the street to the shop, where I installed the 200 amp service panel.    I can run my TIG welder and not worry about about the 5 hp air compressor kicking on.  The shop has a seperate meter, so I know how much money I spend for power each month in the shop.  A note, the house has 400 amp service, but I left it alone, as the house is large with a fair load demand.

            Playing with shop power will get you into trouble real fast with overloaded circuits, insufficient power to the shop, and a definite fire hazard.   Plus, a cobbled system will never met code requirements.    If you do not know what you are doing, hire an electician and do it right.

            New wire and a service panel is cheap compared to the risk involved with doing the job incorrectly.  How much will a fire in the shop cost you???  And think about insurance also:    A cobbled system will void any insurance claims if you run into trouble.   Plus resale value, if you move:   No use putting something in a residence that will flunk inspection and ruin a possible sale of the property.     I changed insurance carriers a few years ago, they sent out an inspector that went over the shop power with sharp eyes.    I was glad I put everything in according to the local codes!!!

             

            PS, looked at your shopfeed photo:   Inspectors here ( County Electrical Inspector and the Insurance Inspector) would immediately write a citation for wiring like this!!!!

            Edited 2/9/2005 11:14 am ET by OldGrowth

          4. User avater
            IMERC | Feb 09, 2005 11:05pm | #10

            welll... (that's a deep suhject)...

            forget the 10/2 and the old panel... there isn't enough of anything to do nothing with other than build yurself a fire hazard...

            everthing will have to be up scaled... a lot... that triplex, is that the power feed to the house??? you trying to by pass the meter???

            get a qualified electrician and have him do it right..

            seems to me you are try to save money and cut too many corners to save a few bucks or get around permitting for some reason and you are trying to get somebody here to say "yeah it'll work" and then latter when you have yurself yur own version of the great Chicago fire you'll say... "well they told me so or said I could.."" then you'll start a head hunt...

            get somebody in to do it right...

            Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

            WOW!!!   What a Ride!

          5. tab1 | Feb 10, 2005 01:19am | #11

            No, no, no....
            That 10-2 is from the box below the meter. It is spliced into the triplex which runs to the shop. No one is trying to bypass the meter. Clearly LOTS of things in this house were done by amateurs/farmers, and wouldn't pass code today. (Which doesn't mean they didn't work just fine for a long time.) As I get to them, I'm fixing them so that they would pass. Am I trying to save money? Absolutely--who isn't? Am I going to do things correctly--absolutely--in spite of the fact that there is no code here. IF I have materials that can be used again, rather than thrown away, my Swedish frugality says that's what I need to use. I have no interest in 'cutting corners'. I do have a very strong interest in not being wasteful.

            I worked for an electrician, for a summer, decades ago. I wired a 1,000 s.f. shop at my last house, myself, and had NO problems with it passing code. Do I know enough to be an electrician? No way. But I DO know enough to ask about what I don't know, and to stay safe.As for capacity: Sure, bigger is great in theory. But each of those amps costs more at every step of the process, and I just don't need them. I rarely weld, and when I do, the only other draw would be lights. I don't think that justifies 100A service. Could be wrong.I will wire this myself, and I will be very grateful for any/all assistance in doing that. And if you still think I'm off base, I'm sure you'll let me know. <G>Thanks.
            Thon

  2. Matt_S | Feb 03, 2005 08:52pm | #6

    You really need to consult an electrician about this. Have one come to your house and explain what you'll need to do.

  3. WillGeorge | Feb 09, 2005 07:34pm | #9

    50 amp plug.. 

    Just me.. FORGET aluminum.. #6 COPPER no splices... three or four wire in conduit pipe to your workshop.

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