Upstairs bathroom remodel advice needed
Hi all, this is my first post here…
This is a picture of my flooring structure under an upstairs bathroom that I am renovating. There are oversized notches in one of the floor joists, several in the middle third, which violates notching guidelines and makes the joist unsuitable for tiling. I want to fix this as best I can.
The top right corner of the space is where the breaker box is located below on the first floor. The perpendicular short joists are just stubs that tie the joist to the wall structure below. The joist span is 12 feet, and the big notch where the grey cable crosses the joist is just about the middle of the span.
i have access to replace the joists and can replace the perpendicular stubs if needed. The supply and DWV can be seen entering in the bottom right part of the picture. The back half of this space is a water heater closet (under the roof rafters that can be seen) and there will be a partition wall just in front of the near rafter, just behind where the five wall studs are stacked.
Can I redo the joist spacing and shorten those stubs? If I were to move all joists to the right 8 to 12 inches, that would also solve a current problem in that the WC flange will be right on top of the current joist.
Any suggestions?
Thanks.
Jim
Replies
boy............
I thought I was having a challenge on my current bath job-yours looks way more goofy.
There appears to be a wall under those joists? Is it, and does this take some of your weight bearing off the joist span?
Hi calvin, thanks for the reply. Good eyes... Yes, there is a wall under the joists, but I don't know how much weight it bears (some of the joists have a gap between them and the top plate of that wall.) The wall divides the kitchen and walk-in pantry, and may go away with a future kitchen remodel, so I don't want to relay on that to offset weak joists.
I agree with you.
(How do I delete this inadvertent extra reply?)
That is a bit of a mess.
One thing you should be sure to do is to install nail plates to protect the cables. (For the big notches you may have to improvise with angle iron or some such.) It's a bitch to have your floor sheathing 90% down and discover you've put a screw through one of the cables. (And, though code doesn't require it, you should protect your plumbing similarly -- as I discovered remodeling our downstairs bath.)
Ditto in the nail plates
I agree 100% on the nail plates... Inexpensive simple thing to do to prevent a major mess!
If I were facing this situation on my home I think I'd give serious consideration to pulling all that wiring out and rerouting it. This may require installing a large accessible j-box someplace. With the cables gone, structural mods can be made easily.
By the way... there are at least two j-boxes in the photo that would appear to become inaccessible should the floor be reinstalled.
Yep, I know that those 2 (actually 3) j-boxes gotta go. 1 is already gone, working on the other 2.... Will hafta pull some cable to do it.
Thought about a complete redo. But it's too extensive, and would probably require 2 massive accessible junction boxes to do what you are proposing. And that wouldn't address the structural deffociencies. Since there won't be any more splices, I don't really need junctions. I can live with a less than perfect cable arrangement as long as the structural issues are addressed, which I can do by replacing affected joists and studs.
jim
Wiring question....
Is there anything wrong with reusing 25 year old wire cables?
I have removed some pretty long lengths of cable during this rewire process and wonder if I can reuse it for new runs rather than buying new wire. Of course I would inspect it for any damage, but it looks good so far.
Jim
25-year-old wire would still be relatively "modern". The only thing is that it might not meet the latest temperature specs, so it should probably not be used for wiring light fixtures (where overheating is common).
Can you use metal plate or angle iron to reinforce the joist? Does not have to span to whole joist length. Instead of 1 layer of 3/4 plywood, 2 layers of 3/4 and 1/2 glued and screwed will be stiffer. Also, as long as the tub doesn't go over that notched joist, you will not have really heavy things going into a bathroom.
About that wall below between kitchen and pantry, it may be more supportive than you think. Removing it later, thinking joist span is good enough, could bring back the bounce. I would put in more mid braces or think stong back or a header.
I don't understand...
k1c wrote
Could you clarify this statement?
Following the thought that removing the wall beneath may compromise the bathroom floor joist, you can put in more blocks between the joists and leave some sort of support under the joist to replace the some of the load that wall was carrying. Strong back is like a header, but it is simpler and smaller, usually 2x6 ell nailed to the attic floor joists that were not meant to carry a load. I guess it is same thing as 4x6 header, but I was thinking you can make it to look more like a square beam. Combining them can only help and take out some of the diy guesswork. Over the years, I've found that some over engineering is cheaper than paying an actual engineer. At a face value, 2x10 joists of 12 foot span is not likely to have a bounce, but if you are going to remove a wall, load carrying or not, little insurance is good. I doubled 3-4 rows of joists under my deep tub.
So, if I got it right, strong back is like a mini header or beam, and for it to absorb any of the load, there would have to some sort of posts to transfer the load to the lower floor structure. Is that the idea?
A strongback is sometimes used to simply spread load more evenly across several joists. In such cases it does not need to bear on anything at the ends (other than joists).
Thinking about it, a header with posts on sides to carry the load would be impractical since a true header will have to be made with 2x8 or better. But I am thinking that floor can be self reinforced with combination of joist blocking, glued and screwed underlayment, and a beam under the joists that ties everything together.
2x10 joist 12' span is usually will not be bouncy, but is it 12' span supported by load carrying walls? Those joists could be part of longer span. Also, smaller floor tiles have less chance of breaking.
The span and the joists themselves are both 12 feet. Each end of the joists are supported by load bearing walls; the exterior wall on one end, and the wall between kitchen and living room on the other end. At the interior end of the floor joists - going beyond the bathroom - the floor joists change orientation, as the attached rough sketch indicates.
According to the deflection calculator at John Bridge / Tile Your World forums, a 2x10 12' span should be stiff enough for porcelain tiles of any size. The calculator says a 16" spacing has a deflection of L / 558, which for a 12' span comes out to a max deflection of 0.258 inches. If I decrease the joist spacing to 12", the deflection decreases to L / 744, or 0.194 inches over the span. Either one should be good enough for 12" porcelain tiles. I am planning for a 3/4" Advantech glued and screwed subfloor topped with 1/2" plywood, which should provide adequate stiffness between joists.
Doubling joists
k1c wrote:
I doubled 3-4 rows of joists under my deep tub.
The joist that runs under the toilet also runs under the water heater, which is right behind the toilet. So, I'm thinking that I may want to double-up at least that joist and maybe the adjacent one. Is it better to just add extra joists between existing, sister the joists with lag bolts, or build up a beam of sorts by sandwiching 3/4" ply between 2 joists?
jim
2 new questions...
1) One of the joists is not like the others (sounds like a Sesame Street song
). It is sandwiched beween 2 2x4's - on one side the 2x is flat to the ceiling below, on the other side the narrow edge is against the ceiling. At first I had no idea why they were there, but then I realized that the joist is above a parallel wall. So I am guessing that they are there to provide blocking to attach the ceiling wallboard to on each side of the wall. Does anybody see anything else that could be going on that i need to be aware of?
2) A related question - if a lower floor wall falls betwen joists, how is the wallboard attached at the ceiling corner? Would I have to install blocking between the joists every 16" or 24" to attach the wallboard to? Is that what is normally done?
Thanks!
Jim
1) Nothing much strange about the blocking -- it's "whatever works" for providing nailing surfaces for the ceiling (when nailing surfaces are provided at all).
2) It's done a dozen different ways. Sometimes the ceiling rock goes up first, then the wall is built below it. Sometimes the wall is built, the ceiling rock is installed and left "wild" at the edges, and then the wall rock is butted up against it to hold it in place. Sometimes blocking/nailers are installed every 16-24 inches between joists. This latter case is often done as much to provide anchorage for the top of the wall as to provide nailing surfaces for the rock, when the wall is running parallel to the joists above.
Lath catcher
is what we've called it.
A wider than the wall pc of wood (2x6, ply, 1x6) is nailed to the top of the plate-then cross blocking to hold the top of the wall in position....................
Done a few different ways, but as said-the purpose to provide a nailing surface for the sheetrock.
In remodels, you'd nail cross blocking up above the joist bottom, the thickness of the lath catcher. Fasten the lath catcher then you'd build the wall to fall under that. Plumb and fasten to the lath catcher. Just cross blocking works, but try to find it when you go to put up the drywall.
The only place where it makes much difference is when the wall is real close to one joist and you might not want the board to float on the wider open space. The real need is for a solid connection for the top of the wall and intermittent cross blocking takes care of that.
Also using rockwool insulation for sound damper would be good, and having a neutral wire in the switch box. I have to use spring loaded timer for the fan because I wired it for switch only. Every time I notice I want more versatile timer, I regret that decision.
k
Get an electronic fan control-push the button for 10,15,20.........
it also has an on/off.
There are various sorts of wireless timers and switches.
Leviton and Lutron have versions that don't need a neutral up to the fan-they hook up like a regular light switch-hot up and return.
Thank you both for that eye opener. Will look into it tomorrow.
Pocket doors
Does anybody know of a way to construct a pocket door that is resistant to air infiltration (not necessarily air-tight)?
My water heater closet access is through the adjacent bedroom. It used to have a plywood panel door, but limited furniture placement due to the swing. I want to replace it with a pocket door. The renovated closet, which is under the roof and has an exterior wall, will be insulated, but probably not air conditioned. Plus, the whole-house vac is located in the closet. So I want the door to insulate some of the sound as well as resist air infiltration. Any ideas?
jim
If the area is only accessed for maintenance, not storage, etc (and you don't need to empty the vac bag too often) you could use a hardwareless sliding door. Set it into a track on the bottom and have something at the top to hold the door close to the frame. Just keep the door light enough that you can move it.
Or, if you wanted to get fancy, you could set rollers in the bottom like a sliding patio door.
I just figure you can get a tighter fit all around (particularly on the bottom) if you don' have to deal with suspension track and rollers.
But study a good-quality patio door to see how they manage.
Doubling joists
by JAnder1960 in reply to k1c [original] on Wed, 10/31/2012 - 17:42
k1c wrote:
I doubled 3-4 rows of joists under my deep tub.
The joist that runs under the toilet also runs under the water heater, which is right behind the toilet. So, I'm thinking that I may want to double-up at least that joist and maybe the adjacent one.
Is it better to just add extra joists between existing, sister the joists with lag bolts, or build up a beam of sorts by sandwiching 3/4" ply between 2 joists?
Jim
If all joists are equally strong and fully anchored at the ends it does no real good (doesn't change rated load) to fasten them together. But, of course, that's often not the case -- some joists may have been "plumbered", there may be knots, it may be difficult to get the new joists to bear on the ends as well as the old one, etc.
So basically do whatever makes sense.
My joists ran 13 or 14' and I was putting deep jet tub parallel to them, so doubling was insurance in my mind. Toilet does not need that much support. But where is the water heater sitting? Is it on same joist with the bathroom? I assume WH was there already, but you are planning to remove a wall beneath, so that WH becomes a factor. One gallon weighs about 10 pounds. If not doubling the joists, I would at least try to spread the load over several joists.
k1c, see my "solution" post
k1c, see my "solution" post below. Does it look reasonable to you?
thanks,
jim
Good new
Really appreciate this post. It’s hard to sort the good from the bad sometimes, but I think you’ve nailed it!
Care to expand?`
nailed what?
His finger.
My solution
The htr will sit on the same joist that the toilet will. It was there before but the bath fixtures are being rearranged. (The vanity was where the toilet will be, toilet was where shower goes, and shower was roughly where vanity goes.)
The drawings show what the problem was going to be and my planned changes shown by the orange lines.
Jim
From the drawings, it looks like the wall beneath was doing a lot supporting the water heater. Also I assume toilet drain goes through the joists. When the wall underneath goes, I would replace with a header. You can use I beam or even double 4x LVL to keep the header shallow. I would think header and posts are easier than worrying about all the joist configurations. If that is regular size WH, than that is several hundred pounds 24/7.
As I said, I tend to over engineer, but at the end of the project, it is self satisfying and there is no niggling I should have, lol.
BTW, is the WH electric and smaller dedicated? The WH weight would determine how you support that floor.
I would make the new access at least 30" wide and although pocket door saves space, you wouldn't put immoveable furniture in that space anyway, so I would leave it as hinge door. Simplest would be a panel that you lift off the stops and held with swing cleats or magnet.
About the shower, it takes up most of the room in the bath and forces the sink to be cramped. I did about the same you are doing, but mine was 1/2 bath where I added a shower. Instead of walls for a shower with a door, I put a pan only with a curtain rod made with 1" copper tube that follows the pan shape. Using a threaded flange for the tube and using #12 or 14 screws into the block preinstalled, there was no need for a support rod from the ceiling. This way, there was enough room each side for the toilet (15" each side from toilet center) and I could make a sink counter top that hung over to the inside wall of the shower pan. Pocket door for entrance. You need to look for lockable pocket door hardware.
The space behind the shower may be better left open, not closed off with a knee wall. Insulated well, will be easier access to shower plumbing, keep the plumbing from freezing, space for shower soap, bottles.