using Depot’s hardwood plywood for cabinets
tuanj
| Posted in General Discussion on
Anyone have experience with Columbia’s 3/4″ (oak or birch) hardwood plywood sold at the Depot for $45/sheet? I’ve been tasked with building a number of cabinets but my experience level with ply for cabinets is limited. I have heard often that Baltic birch is the way to go but client is cheap to put it mildly and love the Depot (and Lowes). Thanks.
Replies
Depot Plywood
I've found that local lumber yards carry better grades of plywood than HD does.....better than HD's and lower grade than Baltic Birch. Baltic Birch is expensive by comparison. You didn't say what the cabinets are for i.e. garage/basement storage or furniture/kitchen.....how will they be finished, edged, etc.
follow-up
Sorry for the omissions...these are kitchen cabinets. Mostly standard size bottom cases and a few uppers, including one that will run the full height of the room. Face frames to cover all the joints. The plywood sides will be exposed on one end of the counter and also on the aforementioned tall cabinet. Will probably varnish the insides. Client likes a pickled and varnished look so it might end up being that, inside and out.
There is also a 5' X 7' island to build later, the plywood sides of which might end up being exposed on all sides.
At the local lumber yard, I think the shop grade starts at around $60/sheet.
Thanks.
Understand that birch, though it holds varnish just fine, does not take stain very well, because the grain is so tight. (I did a computer desk 30 years ago using birch from Menard's and it's held up fine. Can't vouch for the quality of the stuff you get now.)
Understand that Dan has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to wood science. Making such false statemets as he has here only continues to show his ignorance and perpetuates it in others.
Pine, a gymnosperm type wood (soft wood with no vessels) is generally condsidered a "loose" grain wood that can stain poorly whereas birch is a angiosperm type wood (hardwood with vessels) which is generally considered a "tight" grain wood which can also stain poorly. Thus, grain tightness is not an good indicator of how a wood species "takes stain".
The ability of wood to take stain evenly has very little to do with grain "tightness" or density of the wood. It has everything to do with:
1. wood cell vessel structure and various resins, minearls, and other deposits which remain in the cells once the tree is harvested, cell types and components (i.e, tyloses), and various changes in cell orientation with respect to the annual rings.
2. The way one sands these dead cell structures (hand, mechanical, orbital, paralle to grain, grit size, sequence of grit, etc.) which can have a drastic effect on stain performance.
3. Properly conditioning a wood for stain. Properly conditioning a wood can allow a wood that stains poorly to become managable and actually produce a nice, even tone.
4. The type of stain (pigmented or dye) and the vehicle used to convey the color can also have a dramatic effect on how a wood "takes a stain".
Thus, to make an ignorant statement that Birch does not "take stain well" and thereby potentially turn somebody away from a viable stain grade material does a disservice to the material and anyone wishing to learn about it. In fact, my whole kitchen is made from Baltic birch (Luxor cab. manuf.) which I feel was stained and finished (by Luxor) beautifully. Also an example of a kitchen we've done beautifully in red birch (by Bertch) as well.
Deadnuts
Which kitchen is yours?
Depends on how it's being used. I've seen beautiful cabinetry constructed from relatively inexpensive material.and I've see beautiful material wasted by awful craftsmanship.
Other factors are:
1. Whether your building paint grade cabinetry or stain grade. Most birch ply sold at Depot or Lowes is consdidered paint grade. The oak is obvioulsly stain grade, but I've not seen A/A stocked there which could be a factor for some fabrications. Also, from my experience the veneer grade of most oak ply at box stores is, how should I say, less than inspiring.
2. Dimensional stability . Higher grade material will be made with more plys, better grade plys, flatter and dimensionally more stable (particularly in the thinner dimensions). However, construciton details, moisture content control of material at your shop and site, and finishing can all be a factor in the neccesity of inherent dimensional stability. I've seen some Columbia material that telegraphed core imperfections through to the surface/finish ply pretty badly. May not be an issue for matt finish paint grade bookcase where ply surfaces are mostly hidden from direct view. But if used for a counter top or exposed panel that is clear coated gloss urethane where l light strikes across a very visible surface, then that could be a problem. You can't always see these imperfections in the rough sheet. Tip: If you can feel it, then you will see it. You'd be surprised what the human hand can pick up with it's acutely developed sensitivity.
Bottom line is that you and your client probably don't know the difference with your limited experience and cheap budget. Using it will probably work out just fine.
Plywood
Last year I built several floor to ceiling units to be combined into a full wall of built-ins. I used 7 sheets of the 3/4 and 8 sheets of the 1/2 birch from the Depot.
Before that I priced the same materials at local suppliers and could not justify going there for paint grade materials. It would have cost me double the price for little improvement in quality.
As a result of the plywood savings I was able to afford 14 sets of Blum full extension soft close slides for the drawers.
Some horizontal surfaces were Formica. Edges were birch iron on and miscellaneous parts of poplar.
Very happy with the results.
I have used a lot of the red oak HD plywood but be aware the "oak" is damn near painted on. You can pick it off with your fingernail. It is a very thin veneer. I like the look when you wipe it with cherry stain and then put on several coats of poly urethane to protect the surface. Use the oak lumber for rails and stiles and anything else that you can and save the plywood for wide pieces where the edges are hidden. On the shelves, edge it with solid material but be very careful to align the surface perfectly because here is no "sanding it down" to remove the difference. If you touch the veneer, it will be gone.
There seems to be 2 grades at HD/Lowes. The older stuff I have is 7 ply (true 3/4") plus the veneer but the last stuff I got was 5 ply. but it is still 3/4, not that metric that most plywood has migrated too. (sold as xx/32ds)
been there..
I've done quite a few sets of cabinets with big box store plywood.The Chinese birch they stocked for a time was hideous [ mildly put] but their recent offerings have been o.k. Biggest problem is often the show veneer is really thin, you have to be careful about sanding through or chipping edges.
Most times the large majority of the plywood in a carcase doesn't show so if the box store stuff isn't good enough for exposed ends and such you can get a better grade for that.
I prefer to spend my money at the local ma and pa stores but the ones I frequent don't keep much better plywood.
True russian birch is the bomb but I haven't found it around for a while except in 1/2". Also it's in 5x5 sheets usually which doesn't work too well for me. You can build decent drawers with 1/2'' baltic, I would not try that with any other 1/2 ''.
But that's just the report from a back water where options are not too broad.......
I am thinking I have already used some 3/4" birch ply for some closet shelves earlier in the year. Client had picked up the plywood at Lowe's I do believe. I pickled them and sanded lightly with 220 then put the Miniwax water-based to them and they seemed fine. I did not use a conditioner and maybe should have, don't know enough about that-but the stain seemed even, if not particularly pronounced; perhaps pickling is different from staining experience. I have tried some conditioner on some Jeld-Wen frames because they didn't want to soak in the pickling like my cedar jamb extensions and sill so the result was unevenness. But conditioner did not improve things, at least with that particular species of pine (yellow?) so I haven't re-tried it in any application.
If the client goes with the same birch again, I'm hoping it will be okay again but now I've got cabinets to deal with, a whole different ballgame so I am asking in advance about potential warpage, with look/durability running a close second on my list of concerns.
I've used the cheaper(one A side) grade of Chinese birch for my own house projects-stair risers and built-in cabinetry, all of which I've Kilz-ed and painted with good effect but would not even think of using for cabinet project in discussion.
I know about the veneer on these cheaper plywoods being wafer-thin, as I had made one edge piece a tad thick (seemed flush prior to glue-up but then wasn't) and in trying to sand down a bit saw what I was doing to the plywood in the process. A little fill and swapping of shelves and no one was any the wiser but I learned my lesson.
thanks to all and every response; I learn a great deal here and am always grateful for every kernel.
Deadnuts
Beautiful!!! Did you design and build the house yourself?
Each batch of plywood will be different - some bunks will be twisted, some bowed, some with a rough surface......
I've used 30 or so sheets of the cheap stuff in cabinets and I'll drive to a number of stores to see which is best at that time.
if you have a stain grade end be very careful - cheap plywood can become expensive if you have to redo a cabinet
EASY HORSEY
Holy crap.... You likely are American...(If answer is yes or no. It does not really influence this opinion that you are no longer considering because its far out of date)
Home depot.....Perfect environment to buy conditioned wood products (IE:HEATED AND DRY)..... I am familiar with them and my opinion will likely serve you better than the older responses.....(thinking about blogging for small business reasons and seeing whats out there.....)
First of all....STAY BACK FROM DECIDING/ CHOOSING A FINISH WOOD GRADE!!!!!!. NOTICE HOW ALL WALMART/ LARGE MANUFACTURERES ARE NOT MANUFACTURING BED FRAMES /BOOKCASES /END TABLES FROM SOLID HARDWOOD????? WELL ITS BASED ON THIS SHARED EDUCATIONAL VIEW POINT
( I AM A SELF EMPLOYED FEMALE CARPENTER BY THE WAY AND LAUGH OUT LOUD TO SOME OF THESE RESPONSES....MY ATTITUDE IS BASED ON YEARS OF REFINEMENT WORKING WITH UNINTERESTED/ MYWAY OR HIGHWAY MEN)
OKAY BUDDY, "MELAMINE" THE FAMILAR WHITE COATED EASY TO CLEAN SHEET MATERIAL USED IN MOST CABINET/STORAGE PRODUCTS...GOOGLE IT.....CHEAP AND HARDY.
MAKE YOUR CABINET BONES OUT OF THAT AND IF REQUIRING A NATURAL WOOD FINISH/FRAME, USE YOUR BUDGET WISELY AND DRESS THE EXPOSED DOORS/RAILS/STILES/KICKERS WITH A 1/4" VENEER.
1/8" VENEER CAN WARP....IMAGINE WASTING $ ON MAKING IT SOLID, HARD TO CLEAN, ZERO VISIBLE EXPOSURE OF INTERIOR WOOD GRAIN, FUTURE WEAR AND TEAR, TLC/LABOUR TIME FOR FRAMING, TRANSPORTING, FIRST AND COUPLE COAT SEALING, FILLING, AND FINAL EVEN STAIN APPLICATION AROUND ALL THOSE CORNERS.......HUGE $ AND HUGE RESPONSIBILITY
BTW "Birch" .....get out of town....NOOOOO!!!!!, not sure what state your in but have a quick phone call with a cabinet manufacturer and see what hardwood they use....Homedepot is limited....Finish materials sold are not always/or regularely what is best suited for your application.
Also, please respect the next female in your lumber store whether she is 5 or 55. She just may be the contractor pooring your next door neighbors foundation.
WHAT?
AND WHY ARE YOU SCREAMING???
Give the guy a break!
Geez, just got here, and it didn't take me long to find one of those!
What Are You Really Getting?
Please note that the home centers - Home Depot , Lowes, and the like - do NOT, as a rule follow industry standards with their products. In this example, their plywood does NOT conform to APA grades.
I've generally had good edge finishes when I used HD's "oak," "birch," or "luan" plywood. Likewise, I've usually been able to get a good finish on it. Still, the surface will often have some repairs and blemishes in it, and that top veneer is mighty thin. There's no telling what glue is used; I've had the veneer simply peel off of some pieces (maybe the glue was harmed by the shellac finish).
Still, do not confuse their "good one side" product with true 'stain grade' or 'natural' grade plywoods.
"Baltic Birch" set the standard decades ago, for both finishing and clean end grain. It's called "Finnish" plywood because it comes from Finland.
I'd consider the material in light of your methods and facilities. If your CUSS-tomer expects CHEAP, simple boxes punched together with Gorilla glue and staples, go ahead and give him the junk he wants. If you're trying to operate a real shop, with real stationary tools and proper joints .... well, what are you breaking out your material costs for, anyway?
FWIW, I've made cabinets and furniture from the crudest, lowest quality lumber - and assembled them using staples - and they've performed far better than I had any right to expect.