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Discussion Forum

Using plans from plan books & web sites

jonblakemore | Posted in Business on July 25, 2008 10:48am

Do you feel it is legal to take a plan from an online house plans site and draft an “original” plan from that starting point without purchasing the plan in the first place?

With the availability of new home plans, both in book form and online, we frequently have potential clients who say they want “that plan” and then proceed to point to a page in a plan book. I typically end up redrawing the plans anyways, because it’s easier for me to estimate and draw construction details.

Should we first purchase the plans from the plan house? Or is it considered okay to take the rough inspiration from the layout they have posted in plain view?

I must admit I would feel kind of strange asking a client to spend a grand on a set of plans that we’re going to customize anyways, but if that’s what we need to do to be ethical then I’ll have to get over that feeling.

 

Jon Blakemore

RappahannockINC.com

Fredericksburg, VA

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  1. User avater
    BossHog | Jul 25, 2008 10:59pm | #1

    I've wondered the same thing.

    Maybe one of us oughta email one of the plan places and see what they have to say.

    (-:

    Lettin' the cat outta the bag is a whole lot easier 'n puttin' it back. [Will Rodgers]

  2. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Jul 25, 2008 11:19pm | #2

    Have you ever hired an architect to draw a set of plans for you, showing him an existing design such as you describe?  What does the architect say about "borrowing" from someone else's work like that?

    The architect's response to such a proposal probably reflects the industry standard for ethics on that question. 

    Personally, unless the design was really unique, I wouldn't have any problem with using the shape and room layout to make up my own plans, without buying a set from the seller.  

    It's the same to me as admiring a new home in full scale, then using the basic layout to design my own home.  That's been an accepted practice in home design since the first mud hut or palm frond roof took shape and provided shelter.

    But I'd draw my ethical line at copying complete drawings off a web site, in effect stealing someone else's actual work.

     

  3. User avater
    CapnMac | Jul 26, 2008 12:05am | #3

    Do you feel it is legal to take a plan from an online house plans site and draft an "original" plan from that starting point without purchasing the plan in the first place?

    With the availability of new home plans, both in book form and online, we frequently have potential clients who say they want "that plan" and then proceed to point to a page in a plan book. I typically end up redrawing the plans anyways,

    Well, Yes and No.

    I've been to the "we likes this; how much to just make a copy we can use?" game more times than I want to think about.  Typically, the people doing this have selected a plan that is unbuildable for one reason or another.  Or they love the plan, it just needs to be 900sf smaller, kin'ya do that?

    At the same time I don't want people shopping my plans off to some builder to profit from, either.  Knowing that, I sometimes only release electronic media with a built-in dimension skew.  You want to draft off my pdf?  You'll have to spend as much time drawing it to scale as I did.

    I've been brought plans and asked to "only make a title block" for them.  Those requestors were sent packing.  They were trying to pull a fast one on the Muni, and were unconcerned that the Muni would come after me for their failures, omissions, crimes, whatever.

    Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
  4. shellbuilder | Jul 26, 2008 12:28am | #4

    Jon,

     I would buy the plans and have the plan house make the changes. I won't go in to a lot of details about using others plans and modifying them...but here's the deal. It is (was) a 125.00 filing fee in Federal court for a copyright infingement. A lawyer to represent you in that court is a minimum of 7 to 10,000 dollars. This should make sense why so many plan books are free. The guys who originally drew all of these plans now have the luxury of flying around in their planes and stopping in at various cities to see who might be using their plans without paying.

     

  5. Piffin | Jul 26, 2008 02:03am | #5

    When they word it that way, it is definitely illegal for you to do a knockoff without paying.

    I have never had a customer be so explicit as to say "that one"

    They say, "Something like this, and I say that I do custom design work to fit THEM, and then ask for points of discussion, "Let's talk about what things you like, and/or dislike about this plan" As discussion moves along, we discover that there are several ways the shown plan is not right for them.

    I don't take the negative stance of warning them that it would be stealing to use the plan shown without buying it. They get the message though.

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
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    1. User avater
      BossHog | Jul 26, 2008 04:23am | #6

      Have you ever had someone bring 2 plan catalog pages in to you and say:"I Want the floor plan from this one, and the elevation from that one".
      If you can't take the heat, don't tickle the dragon.

      1. frammer52 | Jul 26, 2008 05:01am | #7

        That's a good one!

        How did you answer?

        Edited 7/25/2008 10:01 pm ET by frammer52

      2. susiekitchen | Jul 26, 2008 07:33pm | #13

        Well, let's see, I think my builder just did that on his personal home.

        Inside they started with a typical 21st century layout... bury the great room in the middle, stairwell is oddly shaped, over-built kitchen, little natural light in many areas...

        For the outside they took a picture of a Federal-style house and had an architect juggle the fenestration and some of the interior to match it.

        I know my builder and his family love it, but it feels so schizophrenic to me because it's not what it should be when I walk thru the front door. It's lovely and gracious on the outside, but the interior feels disconnected to it by reason of layout and detailing.

        Still, so many house plans today are nearly identical in layout, why wouldn't you be able to change the exterior elevation to suit your own style??

      3. Piffin | Jul 27, 2008 07:35pm | #19

        similar. 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

  6. User avater
    jonblakemore | Jul 26, 2008 05:23am | #8

    I need to clarify a little. We've never built a house just like the plan "looks", there are always changes because of budget, regional concerns, layout desires, etc. From a legal standpoint, my guess would be that the designer of the original house plan might notice some similarity but would not say it is a 100% match.

    The issue is more one of the client being "inspired" by a certain plan (or facets of multiple plans) and working from there. Maybe there are still some legal concerns, but I would imagine the ethical realm is the only context of note.

    Also, we're not building houses that are incredibly unique, nothing like a Wright knock-off or even the type of houses that Gene Davis shows from Susanka or Sala. These are, for the most part, houses that you could find in any suburban neighborhood.

    I think it's much easier to ask a client to look at a couple dozen plans and tell me what elements they prefer. If I could get my ethical quandary settled, my direction would be easier.

     

    Jon Blakemore

    RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA

    1. frammer52 | Jul 26, 2008 05:55am | #9

      Jon, they sell the prints for $200 or so, cheap to settle your conscience.

      1. Piffin | Jul 27, 2008 07:38pm | #20

        more like 500-800 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        1. frammer52 | Jul 27, 2008 08:39pm | #21

          It has been a while.  I still think it is a small price to pay to keep the conscience clean.

          1. Piffin | Jul 27, 2008 09:08pm | #22

            Right! When in doubt, get the checkbook out 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          2. frammer52 | Jul 27, 2008 09:15pm | #23

            Especially when you are building a whole house.  The customer pays!

    2. User avater
      BillHartmann | Jul 26, 2008 07:47pm | #14

      The copyright laws are "clear".They cover the orginal work and any DERIVATIONS.The question is what is a derivation.Every once in while there is a new article on someone suing someone over a song. And the new articles will talk about how many notes they have in common.Take a set of house plans.Then stretch the lenght 20%.The change it from stucko to brick on the front an B&B on the rest.Flipp it.Change the garage door fromt he front to the side.Change the roof from a 5/12 gable to 10/12 hip.Add/remove a basment and change the interior layout to fit the stairs.Remove the wall from the kitchen to the DR and put in a island and rearrange the kitchen appliances.Adjust the size of some of the closets.Change the master bath from having a large spa tub and add the space to a walkin closet.Change the windows from double hung to casements and make some bigger and some smaller.Now comparing the end results to the orginal problably no one could tell where they came from.But if the records of the changes are know then it is clearly a derivation and covered by the orginal copyright.Probably the best way, as someone mentioned, is to ask them what features that they like in that plan.And by the time you put together the features from 2 or 3 plans and the layout of the lot you will end up with something that is completely different from any plan in the book..
      .
      A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

  7. Oak River Mike | Jul 26, 2008 06:30am | #10

    Our state answers that question for us as ALL plans must be original signed and sealed stating approved usage in Florida printed on the plans so we really can't buy "off the shelf" plans and use them.

    And most of the local archs and engineers won't copy someone else's deisgn and redraw them just as professional courtesy.  And even if they did it would cost about the same amount as they would have to be completely redrawn to meet the Florida Building Code.

    1. MikeSmith | Jul 26, 2008 01:31pm | #11

      jon... i use a lot of the free plan books i get thru my nahb membershipi give the appropriate ones to my customers after i've gone over their needs ( two-story, one-story, emptynestor, etc )after they come back with a few choices, i design their house from the ground up with their choice as a starting point, ie: general layout, look & feel, size of kitchen, etcalmost everything will change, because one or two small changes always snowballsi've never found a plan that didn't have to be completely redoneone time , the customer actually bought the plan set and the reproducible, we inked the changes on the reproducible and built it as designedMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

  8. JeffinPA | Jul 26, 2008 07:29pm | #12

    From what I have learned:

    If you draw the plans and they are not identical, it is difficult for them to sue you for copyright infringement.

    if you photocopy the plans and white out and touch up, expect to get  sued and you should.

    If you use ideas from a plan,  I would argue that it is not copyright infringement.  I use ideas from lots of diffferent plans to build my homes and am not going to go buy the 4 or 5 plans that I got ideas from.

    I also walk model homes and get ideas, look at friends homes, look at homes under construction, etc.

    I bought 1 plan about 2 years ago and used them.  Still ended up tweaking  them a little but for the cost of the plan, it was easier than drawing my own plans and the right thing to do in my opinion.  I used the plans and even if I re-drew the exact plan, I would not have slept right at night.

    BTW, if you get sued for copyright infringement they usually go after plan costs plus any profits you made by using their plans so if you loose you are going to really regret not spending the monies.  (I have heard of suits where the offender used the plans to build dozens of homes-----Ugly)

    1. shellbuilder | Jul 27, 2008 02:33am | #16

      jeff,

       The problem is you argue in court and a lawyer to go over the federal court threshold is 10 g. Even if you take their plans and change them considerably, you could still need to defend yourself. Generally, these situations are kept very quiet and are settled for about triple the plan costs. Keep in mind what I'm saying, you are on the hook for the attorney fees and your client will be subpoenaed also. I've been through this. It was only 125.00 filing fee for the plan guys to get the ball rolling.  

      1. JeffinPA | Jul 27, 2008 02:40am | #17

        Oh, I get it.  I worked for a company when we went after someone.

        That was back in my corp america days.

        I am not looking to use anyones plans.  If I want to draw something, I hire an architect and give him a sketch that I come up with.

        If a client wants me to build something that looks like something another builder  builds, I would say that I cant unless they get the builder to give em written permission.  (that is what I have done in the past and actually have paid builders for their plans before)

         

        Where are you anyway.

        You say southeastern PA, right?

      2. JeffinPA | Jul 27, 2008 02:40am | #18

        never mind.

        I just realized you are in VA beach.

         

        OOPS

  9. JohnFinn | Jul 27, 2008 02:06am | #15

    If you (or your customers) are fortunate enough to find a plan that fits the program in a plan book or online by all means buy the plan! Most plan outfits will allow you or a designer/architect to modify the plan for local or site specific circumstances, and have the verbiage right on the plan or sales info. Some will offer the service for an additional fee. Most are a one time build, one license arrangement. You or your customers will save substantial $ acquiring a plan this way. I would guess to say less than 1/2% of new homes built are built verbatim from a plan book (most make changes, most substantially deviate from the original plan).

  10. User avater
    Gene_Davis | Jul 27, 2008 09:25pm | #24

    I am sure the big software packages like Chief and Softplan and others do this, but today's software makes it incredibly easy to snip off a floor plan from one of the many websites that shown them, import the pic into the package, and then just draw right over it, after you have adjusted for scale.

    To see how it is done quickly in Sketchup, watch this video: http://go-2-school.com/podcasts/028, and after you have watched that, then watch this one: http://www.sketchucation.com/forums/scf/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=723

    Less than an hour, and you've got something you can build from.

    With a plan done, you can flip, stretch, or change to your heart's content any way you want.

    If you are going to build pretty much what the "stock" plan shows, you ought to buy the plans.  As crummy as some of them are, there is usually something in there that is worthwhile seeing, and incorporating into the build.  Some little gem like, "oh, now I see how to do it."

    Some of the plans sellers such as Alan Mascord make it impossible for you to rip off a plan as a .jpg.   That won't stop someone from doing a pageprint and then scanning it.

    Looking at the incredible array of plans offered by one of the sellers such as Donald Gardner, I cannot imagine how the "copyright police" go about finding someone to prosecute.  All those gingerbread suburban things with all their gables and fancy rooflines look alike to me.

    I would love to hear some stories of folks getting caught.

     

    View Image

    "A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."

    Gene Davis        1920-1985

  11. MSA1 | Jul 27, 2008 09:31pm | #25

    From what i've been told about magazine plans, you have to take them to an architect to have them "fitted" for your site and foundation anyway.

    If you have to do all that I really dont see a problem with just running with them. They are published for sale I really wouldnt see that as stealing.

    1. frammer52 | Jul 27, 2008 11:24pm | #26

      I have a problem with that.  If I bought a program from Microsoft, according to your logic i could make lots of copies and sell them to everyone I know.

      That's not right and neither is using plans without paying for them.  Yes, I call that stealing.  Maybe I have a more rigid belief status than you.

      1. MSA1 | Jul 28, 2008 03:46am | #28

        Before you start taking orders for my last meal, let me clarify. If you want to buy the plans, thats fine. I really dont see a problem with seeing something you like and working from it.

        From what you say if you see a fence you like I guess you're screwed cause you've already seen it so you cant emulate it (that'd be stealing).

        1. frammer52 | Jul 28, 2008 04:08am | #30

          Not if it isn't copywrited.

          Relax I won't tell on you, for a slight fee!

          1. silvertip | Jul 28, 2008 05:03am | #32

            We are always coping something from someone else, wether it is plans or a way someone has done a tile job ect.  I don't think it is a big deal.  I have done a few plans this way.  From the ones I did only small parts were ever taken from one plan.  The client may like where the master is situated but doesn't like going through the spare to get to bath room.  All plans are tweaked to suit their needs so if I borrow someone's idea whats the big deal.

          2. Piffin | Jul 28, 2008 05:33am | #33

            When you only imitate parts of the whole what you build is then unique unto itself.But if you copy the whole unigue design, you have stolen an intellectual creation 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          3. frammer52 | Jul 29, 2008 03:26am | #34

            Am I that dense, even I got it, way back at the beginning of the posts.

    2. Piffin | Jul 27, 2008 11:36pm | #27

      "They are published for sale I really wouldn't see that as stealing."The way your post is worded is confusing.The way I read it you are saying that to take and use something that is for sale would be just fine and dandy, but not theft.The law does not read that way.Pull a magazine off the rack and look at it for a while, but if you walk out of the store with it without paying and you are guilty 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      1. MSA1 | Jul 28, 2008 03:48am | #29

        You're right I did write that poorly. I meant you've bought the picture in the magazine and I dont see a problem trying to replicate something you've seen.

        The other part about the drawings having to be reworked by a local arcy, this was the reason given to me NOT to buy those drawings cause you'd be paying for them twice.

        1. Piffin | Jul 28, 2008 04:55am | #31

          "I dont see a problem trying to replicate something you've seen."YOU might not see a problem.But the guy who you are stealing from might.
          And if he pursued it, the courts would agree with him. 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          1. MSA1 | Jul 29, 2008 03:47am | #35

            I'm referring more to something like Silvertip is saying.

            Maybe a customer would say "I want something like X"

            I'm not talking about having the magazine onsite opened up the the picture and trying to find scale off the drawing.

            Alot of what we do is emulation of things others have seen and liked. Thats more of what I meant.

            If someone wanted something exactly like they saw in a mag then i'd advise them to buy the print.

          2. Jim_Allen | Jul 30, 2008 03:58pm | #36

            "But the guy who you are stealing from might.
            And if he pursued it, the courts would agree with him."Okay...lets agree that you can't duplicate a copyrighted plan. But...what if you changes a few things? What if you make the kitchen bigger or smaller? Is it a new plan? Is it legal? If it's a new plan, then it's not illegal and not immoral and not unethical. To me, all houses look alike...they are essentially the same thing but face differently. I couldn't possibly draw any layout that I haven't seen before ...if it has square or rectuangular rooms and a roof on top of the house. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

          3. runnerguy | Jul 30, 2008 04:38pm | #37

            The question the court would have to decide if the new plan is a derivative. If there's a court involved there's a gray area becauset that's probably why the court is being asked to decide. If it where a black and white case then it's probably settled out of court.

            Up until the early '90's it was possible to change one thing and have a "new" plan. Now that's now longer the case. Copyright law now has floor plans in the same catagory as plays, books and songs where what's a "derivative" has a wide net.

            And copyright damages are triple.

            Runnerguy.

          4. shellbuilder | Aug 02, 2008 04:31am | #39

            Well said RG. If the plan is used as a starting point, then a copyright infringement has litigation ability. 

          5. Piffin | Jul 31, 2008 01:37pm | #38

            Change it and it isn't the same unique whole thing anymore and you are good to go.
            As somebody pointed out, it is up to the courts to determine how much must change to be legal. I know that just flipping a mirror image or changing casing styles and paint colours won't work. I was in a class that used a couple cases for examples so that much I know. The point of the whole class was that it can be just as easy to design new as to copy and try to 'change' a little so why take a chance.If you have ever tried to change a little on a house, you know what I mean. A house is a woven tapestry. Pull on a thread and it starts to unravel and you have to re-weave it again. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

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