Greetings all – I’m an HO and I’ve been reading this site and FHB for a couple of years now and my house is currently under construction. I’d like to get somewhat of a concensus among the (better than average) tradesmen from this forum on what size a utility room should be. The room has currently been expanding into an unheated winter storage area for a small (16′) boat/trailer which I’d like to keep as large as possible in case I trade up some day. Current measurements show the trailer tongue clearing the space by about 2″. The stud walls are not up yet, just marked on a drawing and the floor. The room as originally drawn had a cut-out or jog in the wall to accommodate a longer trailer tongue.
The room has now expanded to a 10′ X 9′ square with 9′ ceilings, not counting an under-stair area (which I’m told none of the subs can use) with the 36″ door in the middle of the 9-foot wall. My general says that all the subs in total need to use that much space, but 90+ sq. ft. seems excessive to me (and costly too, at $160+/ sq. ft Cdn). (Also, none of the tradesmen I’ve met so far are particularly obese.)
House is 2320 sq. ft. and the room will contain ; an HRV near the ceiling, and all its ducts are at the ceiling level, but the HRV itself can’t have anything underneath it for some reason ; a gas HW heater ; 200 A electrical box ; cable junction box ; security system box ; phone box ; IFR heating manifolds, valves, expansion chamber, pumps etc. (NO boiler, just HWH) ; and no A/C .
I’ve made my concerns known so far, but depending on what I hear here, maybe my protests need to be a bit more forceful ; and the window of opportunity to do something about it is closing quickly.
Please, and Thankyou – Brian.
Replies
Hiya Brian and welcome to BT
I have no idea what a boat storage has to do with a utility room. Maybe you are gonna cram it in there after the fact?
The house is not all that big for such a large utility closet but you name a lot of things in there. I rebuilt a house three times that size with a ut room that was 5'6" x 9'2" just for the electrical and phone and security stuff though. The boiler room had al the manifold stuff in another place.
But you need to realize that the electrical codes require 36" clearance in front of the box and something to the sides too. I forget how much. If you want electricity it is a good idea to obey the electrical code. Additionally it is a gross measure of disrespect to tradesmen to put a pile of storage crap (OK, I know it is not crap to you, it's good stuff, right? but when you are crawling over it on an emergency call in the middle of the night, it is crap) right in the way of what they have to work on. This reminds me of the thread someplace here where a guy haad to go in to remove wallpaper on a job and he found piles of dirty underwear and such right in his way.
Sometimes a space can be laid out more efficiently and doors can swing in different directions to accomadate traffic but oveerall, it doesn't sound like you have much to complain about, IMO.
That 160 bucks applies as an average across the whole job. Kitchens and baths can run closer to three bills and things average out. don't begin to imagine that you have a ut room that is that expensive, except for the cost of the copper in it. If we break it down to each square foot, you must have some hallways and bedroom space that costs only thirty dollars.
So make your requests as forcefull as you want, just so long as they remain requests. When reality runs into demands, guess what wins.
Excellence is its own reward!
Some valid points, Piff - (Wow, I got a response from the much-revered Piffin!)
Sorry - I failed to explain that there would ultimately be a wall between the ut room and the boat storage area, so they will be separated, so no one will be climbing over anything (boat or otherwise) to get into the room. (I'm presently one of those "weirdos" who actually uses his two-car garage to actually hold two cars and not junk and park the cars outside). The two rooms are related in that together they occupy an area of space in the house defined by already-constructed walls, and making one of them larger makes the other smaller.
No afterthought on my part, the size and dimension of these two areas were clearly defined on the print, and the size and shape of the space for the boat was specifically designed to accommodate the boat.
I should have put a : ) after the $/ sq. ft. figure when I posted it, because I'm aware it's an overall average figure.
One question : If you built a house with a storage area in the walkout basement specifially designed for storing a boat, and then had to store that boat outside in the winter because space had been wasted in a ut room, would you REALLY think that you wouldn't have much to complain about???? I'm trying to avoid the possibility of this scenario.
Also, don't forget that if you added an extra few feet to the house at the time of construction to increase the size of the ut room that you DO add around full cost/ sq, ft., because it also gets added, generally, to the kitchens, baths, and any other rooms immediately above the ut room in the building, especially if there are multiple floors. It's not always possible to add just the less costly areas alone.
Good to know about the (minimum) electrical clearances. I'll find out what they are and I can certainly use those figures to my benefit. I also know that there are certain recommended minimums around a water heater, but I don't expect to go that close as that's not practical. BTW - when the water heater goes, I'LL be the one doing the work, so I want no more and no less than a reasonable amount of working space around it or anything else in that room.
Thanks Piff for a good, quick response. Regards - Brian.
ps. May I add "competent" and "professional" to your name-calling list? ; )
Gee, I guess I was a little hard on you, wasn't I.
A little planning and a little money and everything will be OK - unless your general is a jerk about it - and if that's the case, you've got other problems with him too..
Excellence is its own reward!
Hi Mark.
Hey Mark, who's payingfor this job? You, right? Well, there you have it!
Anything can be changed or altered. All it takes is a little cognitive thinking....and money. Ever hear the term CHANGE ORDER? Use it with the contractor to come up with an alternative solution. Wiring...it can be rerouted. Plumbing lines can be changed too. HW tanks can be put in different locations as so can wiring panel boxes.
Tell the contractor that you have to have X amount of space for your boat, and you want an alternative plan to give you that space. If he can't come up with a fairly sensible solution, then he aint worth his salt, period!
I'm not saying that these changes won't cost you...they may very well add to your budget...then again, perhaps not....depends on what your contractor comes up with.
FWIW, many homes built in the 40s through the 80s with basements did not necessarily contain utility rooms. Instead, panel boxes, water heaters, furnaces, and the like were positioned next to outside walls. Plumbing runs, wiring chases, and heating ducts, allowed these systems to be placed almost anywhere. What's changed today? People's mindsets that you have to group all your utilities together in one spot called a "utility room." Guess what? although utility rooms are a nice convenience, that's all they are...a conveinence.
You have certain requirements and needs that you want your new home to be able to adequately conform to. If one of your concerns is boat/trailer space...then make sure you get it.
Davo
My own utility room is 2'9" x 6'8" and also contains HWH (for domestic and RFH), HRV, all the exposed ductwork connections, phone/computer junction box. It does NOT contain the 200-amp electrical panel. Which, as Piffin points out needs 36" in front and 30" to one side clear of everything else. So my distribution panel is in a hallway and, once the inspector left, I hung a quilt over it.
So how did I do it, all offical and inspected, in exactly 20% as much space? Did it myself. The plumber (me) didn't mind the HVAC guy (me) hanging the HRV high because the plumber (me) still had room to work. And the HRV is totally accessible for maintenance or service, but without wasted space. And the HWH can be R&R without de-installing anything because the plumber (me) checked all the dimensions carefully. And the electrician (me) gave the plumber (me) and the HRV guy (me) and the phone guy (me) all the 12-2, T-stat wire and Cat-5e they (me) needed, where they (me) needed it. (And with 8', not 9' ceilings!)
But with a GC running the job and individual subs? Each sub is asking for an equipment footprint plus room to move and service the stuff. And that many of those spaces could be combined seems to have been missed. With 9' x 10', you've got 20' of wall, all 3'deep space, PLUS a 3' aisle going down the middle. That would be enough for an electrical panel (14.5" + 30" on one side), plus HWH (22" but lets say 30"), plus heating manifold (42") plus phone/data/video/security boxes, stacked (16"). That adds up to 10' so that's just one side. If you also needed a furnace, solar holding tank, A/C and air filtering that couldn't fit in with the furnace like they should, and maybe a water softener and, heck, a computer workstation - then maybe you'd need 90 sq ft.
So it not unreasonable for the GC to grab a lot a acreage - it makes his job easier (and also for each sub) which should, in itself, help keep costs down that might start to balance the cost of the greater square footage. But not it is the best that could be done. Part of the GC's job is to make an awful lot of details and subs all come together in concert.
As someone pointed out, you are the client. I'd ask the GC to put the HRV and ductwork high (6' to 9'). Keep the plumbing low (<6'). And stack the low-voltage stuff in one bay. That ought to get 3' or 4 or even 5 more feet for the boat. A vehicle with 2" to spare in a garage does NOT fit. You need to be able to walk around it. And be able to park it without using feeler gauges.
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Edited 3/6/2003 6:14:48 AM ET by David Thomas
I have 2 FWA furnaces and a hot water heater in a 4-6 by 6-6 closet with double doors. But not electric or other items.
Note, that Canada the electric code is different and they might require more or less clearance around the pannel.
BTW if you get a bigger boat and the trailer toung is the problem you can order the trailer with a detachable tounge or get it modified locally.
I did that for my boat and it makes all of the difference storing it in a tight location.
Mark,
You're getting a lot of good advice. I'd like to know what good a cutout or jog in the wall would be for a trailer tongue. Are you going to push your boat in by hand, backwards, every time you want to store/unstore it? That's nuts, unless I don't understand it. At first I thought you were going to spin it around inside the room, until you mentioned the 2" clearance thing.
If I was going to build a room for a boat and trailer, I'd make it something like 28 feet deep at a minimum. You need to walk in front and behind it, and it sure would be handy if you could tip up the motor when the door was closed to work on it indoors. That footage would also allow you to get a longer boat in the future. My sixteen foot boat on the trailer ends up just shy of 22 feet, with the motor and trailer tongue.
mad dog... u ain't got no ocean... whadda ya doin with a boat ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"mad dog... u ain't got no ocean... whadda ya doin with a boat?"
Hey, Smith,
There's more to this world than dry land and ocean.
Mad Dog's lakes sure ain't the ocean, but your ocean sure ain't those lakes!
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
deep, rich, real ........... deepMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"deep, rich, real ........... deep"
I put on my boots before I typed it.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Lots of good advice here - thanks-
Mad Dog - yeah, the tongue is about 18" off the floor, and the top of the motor is about 5' off the floor, so a cut-out for the tongue in the wall can be smaller than a cut-out for the motor. Hence my willingness to accommodate my GC by going the the annual trouble of turning the boat around outside and pushing it in (with help) by hand. My previous plan was to eventually put a 120V winch (which I already have) on the back wall and winch it in, either backwards or forwards. (unlikely to have room for that luxury now). But then doesn't it just make me look greedy if I ask not only for enough space for my existing boat BUT also for a possible FUTURE BOAT TOO? ; )
David Thomas - no bout adout it, the benefits of DIY are numerous. In fact I did make exactly that comment to my wife about this issue. The house I'm living in presently was one of many designed and built by my father (hands-on) and very efficient use of space is used throughout, and I guess to a degree I have been spoiled by that. Now, having said that, I would not, and do not, expect quite that degree of care from tradesmen who are working on a time basis. I would suspect that most tradesmen participating in this site (better than average in many respects) would not hold most other fellow tradesmen to their own high standards.
Bill - Good to know about a detaching tongue, I'll remember that for the future. I guess that that type of "tongue lashing" would be lethal, though. : )
Piffin and Davo - after posting my story in writing, it's a funny thing, the situation seems more clear-cut and logical to me now. I talked with my builder about it again today and he is willing to postpone the placement of the defining wall and see if he can locate some of the utilities farther away from it and get me more storage space. So far, I can't in all fairness say anything bad about him. There have been some major problems, and maybe that's common with custom homes, but so far they have been ostensibly satisfactorily dealt with.
Best regards - Brian.