As someone who works in a big office but dreams of running my own woodworking shop I think a lot about what it will cost to run the operation of my dreams. And I have lots of questions about how to run my own business and what kind of business it should be…
Coming from a Fortune 20 company (>$50 Billion/yr Revenue) the employee benefits I am accustomed to are different than I ever experienced working in a trade (boatbuilding, HVAC, land surveying, construction).
So…. why do so many contractors, builders, etc… offer such meager (IMO) vacation pay in comparison to office work?
Here is my comparison:
My experience says that trades typically run from no paid time off to 1 and at the top 2 weeks off a year. As often as not, employees get a week off at the holidays without pay.
White collar jobs/employers nowadays offer a minimum of two weeks vacation, plus sick time (~5 days) and often personal days too. 4 weeks paid time (vacation plus all the rest) is close to the starting point.
The relative costs to the employer can’t be drastically different, so why the disparity?
I know if I was busting my back – literally – everyday and not just sitting in an office I would count that vacation time as a necessity.
Love to hear your thoughts?
Tom L.
Replies
Our companies aren't big enough to absorb the cost. Me, I'm a one man operation doing say 12-20 jobs a year for example. Take a two week vaca and divide it up amongst those 20 people and boy can you piss 'em off............
Build it in to your overhead and the vacation minutes are not as hard to swallow for the customer.
You won't find much in the way of bene's in the trades because there isn't the volume to take it from in 1-20 employee companies.
I think.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I give my employee 2 weeks vacation and 3 days sick leave. He can't take more that a full week at a time and had better save a few days for slow times. His wages including benefits are nearing $27 an hour. To make a profit over a year we have to charge $50 and beg to get it. Since there is only 2 of us and you can't bill a full 40 unless you are lucky profit is slim with nowhere to add more benefits. Better stay where you are so you don't feel pooped on. DanT
Was chatting with a neighbor recently, she works as a 'security guard' at a State college[aka. works for the state]. It was a rain day so we did'nt work.
She asked if I got paid anyway.I say "no".
Then "Oh, but you get paid big money,so..." <Scatching my head ???>
Yeah, I say, but I wish I have Columbus day,King day and all the other BS days you gov't workers get.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
2 hours show up time, only fair.
Another union thing that makes sense.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
2 hours show up time, only fair.
I hope the guys like working in the rain...
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
come on blue, you know the weather. You live outside. All day soaker, let 'em go. Hell, it's not even safe, course I wear glasses.
and your feelings on vaca pay? You have some guys there a while, no?Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Cal, we used to treat the boys pretty good till last year. Now, everyone's cut. We don't even know if we'll hire them back. The builders are putting the carpentry crews out of business.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
so coming from a fortune 20 company , youve heard of outsourcing right?
well this is kind of the same thing.
I run everyone through a local temp agency, even though they arent temps
my cpa brought this to my attention. For me we are 6 persons ( male and female). the cpa said that until I hit at least 10 employees it does not pay for me to have my own workers comp, cpa ( for wages ) , beneifits etc.
my two main guys gave been with me for years. One for nearly 6 now.
by going through the temp agency ,
first let me say, I set the pay scale and I am competative for the people I sennd to the temp agency to join on with me
1) someone is automatically doing my workers comp and taxes
2)after they hit 200 hours in a year, they get 1 week paid off plus 2 sick days. However on vacations I require a mnimum of one months notice
3) after 280 hours they can buy into blue cross and also get dental and vision and a program like aflac, I pay into it too, I pay $1.25 additional an hour ( major med only), and 15 a month for the aflac type program and it stays fixed at that amount
I do not however, give them the extra 1.25 an hour in wages if they choose not to get the medical, why, because I had a good person choose no medical, so I gave him the extra 1.25 and leave a few months later because he went to a company that offered medical, and less $$ an hour..........what ???
4) If I calculate how many hours a month they drive my trucks, say 20 hours a month, I pay an extra $1 dollar an hour , and it is their ( agency) insurance not mine, that takes the hit if there is a problem
5) I can hire myself at minimum wage ( my draw) and have all the same bennies, ( workers comp, med insurance) then pay myself monthly bonus independent of the temp agency. ( I am an LLC and the company is hiring me , not me hiring me, the bonus is actually broken out differently paid to the CEO of the company, hey dats me wink wink)
6) If I need to hire new people, and dont have someone in mind, I hire through the agency, dont work out, see ya later, after all it was a temp job , right !!!, no excuses no problems
7) no druggies, well who knows. Its thier life, but to start with me they take a drug test, they get hurt its a drug test, all not paid by me
so whats it cost. 1.6 times wage. so a person at say 10 an hour costs me 16 an hour, for all the above ( at 18 thats 28.8 an hour)
on top of that after 1 year with me , I put 1$ an hour toward an IRA. Its not much , but it helps, they can do more if they want
And on the risk of not being P.C. at Christmas they get a bonus
sounds good to some, cheap to others I bet
but at my age, I am so tired of losing people and haveing to retrain someone again it helps keep peole around
maybe its not the best in the fotune 500 club, shucks Im probabally in the fortune 8000000 club
but I try, and in this industry, in this town, its pretty fair
ok , draw back that I know of right now .........
my contractors insurance came up for renewal, it was denied at the then current rates, so the rates went up, more then usual.... why ..........I was determined as a "paper contractor" because "I" have no employees. I use a temp agency, which is technically a subcontractor
but according to the CPA, Im still a few pizzas and beers ahead on this
last thing, I have been so happy with this , I havent looked around
if you know of a way to do what I do , for that few people, what I can offer, for less money. let me know
isa.. you sound like a pretty progressive employer..
i keep trying to regain the ground i lost in the '80's..
when i started we had all the ins.... and family health...
and 7 paid holidays..
now we have one paid holiday...
and i pay 55% of single health care...
we keep raising our rate , trying to afford more bennies..
i'm convinced the companies that can attract and keep good help are the ones who will thriveMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
thanks Mike for the respond of progressive employer
if thats true, its by default.
I am also moving into more design/construction and with a bad back and knee I need to keep at least 1 good solid lead around who can be in the field when I cant.
and like I said earlier, I cant keep losing time on rehire and training
if I didnt offer those bennies, he would be gone to competition who does
That's impressive. A little confusing, but impressive. I'm gonna reread back through that. Did you say the LLC can hire YOU? And you get all the standard unemployment insurance, industrial insurance and so forth that other employees get? And pay the CEO (you?) any monthly bonus you decide he's (you've) earned?
And this all legal?Free speech leads to a free society.
jim.... the thing that makes it legal..is that he works for an LLC..
( which he also happens to own )
could do the same thing with a subchapter S corp... ( i'm an employee of the corp. we own )
and with a "C" corp... some are better at some things than others..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You can hire your kids too! Stick the 4 years old in a brochure and pay them 5000!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Dont stick the Kids in it...stick their pictures in it!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Mike,
I would be leary of doing that as an LLC. I've heard but never experienced some bad things about them. Apparently the thing that makes them so attractive in place of an S Corp also makes them kinnda vulnerable.
My accountant had told me that doing just such a thing would get me jacked up hard. Of course that was a few years ago when lots of small guys were just starting to test the LLC waters
Robert, check with your atty for issues relating to LLC's. There have been some substantial rulings recently that re-inforce the LLC's ability to withstand challenges. I believe they are recognized by law in all 50 states now.
Don't ask your atty about accounting issues regarding LLC's and dont ask your accoutnant about legal issues regarding LLCs.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Edited 3/29/2005 8:30 am ET by blue_eyed_devil
uh.. blue.. that might deserve an "edit"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yes it did! Thanks
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue,
I admit that I don't know everything about "your" industry. However, I am not sure I buy your justification of these practices based on the "independent" nature of the trades. This smells of the romantic notions about doing it for the love of the work and ignoring business fundamentals along the way. The thread about Overhead/Profit shows this for the fantasy it is...
If you want to be independent - be a sub or a general or a shop owner. But really all that means is: be an independent businessman. A business owner takes on the risk inherent in business with the goal of reaping the rewards (profit). You get to make the decisions and live with them too. An employer has an obligation to treat employees fairly and consider their interests when making those decisions.
I'm not talking about the entrepreneurs, I'm talking about the skilled tradesmen that choose not to go it on their own because they realize that is not their life's ambition or their strength. Risk is not for everyone. Accounting requires different skills than framing stairs and hipped roofs.
Thanks,
Tom L.
This smells of the romantic notions about doing it for the love of the work and ignoring business fundamentals along the way.
Yep.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
But do you agree that a business owner is different from a tradesmen?
Tom L.
PS - I gave up my own romance with boatbuilding because it was incompatible with having children (IMO). I'd love to be doing that today but I would not have my daughter if I was.
Tom, I fully understand that a tradesman must wear a different hat than a business man. You and I can agree on that. Unfortunatly, less than 5% of tradesmen understand that. I don't think any other major industry has such a weak business mentality, but that is our reality.
Hence, no vacations!
Actually, the unions withhold some money each week. When I'm negotiating with a union guy to work for me, I offer to put the exact same amount of compensation directly in his check each week in the form of higher pay. I pay cash on the barrelhead, the union witholds it and gives it in a lump sum. When you think about it, it all comes out in the wash.
If you are trying to hire on with me and you ask for one month paid vacation, I will agree. I just lower your other 11 months pay to compensate for the loss of production. Every industry does that. So, if you were going to earn 50k and work 2000 billable hours, you'd earn 25 per hour. Since you are only going to work 1840 hours, I can only pay you 46000. Since you want to be paid when you don't produce, I have to adjust your pay downward to equal your production. I can now only pay you 23 per hour, but you get your week paid!
Oh yeah, that arrangement only works if you are working in an industry that has steady hours. In residential, we are lucky to average 1500 billable hours. 1000 isn't that unusual. If a guy wants to go on salary as a rough framer, I'd have to pay journeymen about $14 per hour tops, or about 28k per year. When you look at the true hourly, they'd be at 28 per hour, but it looks like they are at 14 per hour.
Like I said, you couldn't get me to take another salary job.
blue
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
last company I worked for had paid vacations ...
and holidays ...
and a 401K plan ...
U know ... almost like real people ... 'cept we were carpenters.
actually had a cafeteria plan to help lower their own costs.
what's so hard about adding up all those yearly "hours" and coming up with a "salary"? Then again .. what does salery have to do with anything. People on salaries still get paid hourly ... U know .. 40 per week/ 80 every 2 weeks.
can't U base your expected production hour for the year on a realistic number?
then work from there.
my wifes salary paycheck has her hours noted on it.
and she get's paid vacation ... hoildays ... bennies program. U know ... like a real person?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Jeff, I once had a "salary", paid vacation, benefits, company truck, yada, yada, yada.
I'll never do it again. The company was great. My immediate supervisors were great. The guys I worked for were great. The work was great. I gave them enough notice and they would hire me back after 15 years of being away if I called them.
Like I said, I'll never do it again.
Different strokes for different folks.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue,
I can't dispute your logic and even agree with it to a fair degree. What I don't understand is your problem with "salary." Sounds like you had a sweet deal in that last salaried position but you don't say what about it drove you to your current stance.
Salary vs. hourly is not a relevant issue in the discussion over Vacation pay. Most every hourly position I have ever had that wasn't part time or in the trades included some sort of vacation and sick time.
I will agree that salary can extend the argument because you get paid for a full week even if you only spent 25 hours at work. As long as the job gets done, no problem IMO. However, if the job takes 80 hours one week, you still only get paid for one week. Either way, someone needs to do some tinkering with the workload, either the employer needs to give the employee more to do or the employee needs to push back on the overload.
Bottom line - I think the practices of giving the crew a week off unpaid at the holidays, etc... just suck.
Tom L.
Sounds like you had a sweet deal in that last salaried position but you don't say what about it drove you to your current stance.
I think I did mention it earlier in this thread, but you'd have to connect the dots. I'll re-state it: Tradespeople are an independent group.
If you scroll up to Jeff's last post, he reffered to his taking a job as "giving up my freedom". That pretty much sums up what I think taking a job is.
Here's another way for you to help understand what a tradesman like myself feels; I've said this many times to many different people and it's true even at my ripe old age of 51: "If someone offered me a very lucrative job offer that was going to pay me one million dollars per year, but it had one caveat: I had to go everyday to the same office and sit at the same desk till I reached the age of 65, my retirement age; I would refuse that job immediately. I wouldn't even give it a moments thought." I wouldn't take that offer even if I was offered 6 weeks vacation and a standard 40 hour week.
I've made that statement, when I didn't have two nickels to rub together and I've said it, and meant it every time I think it.
When you can wrap your arms around that thought, you'll understand why our industry is the way it is.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
People often ask us if we get paid when we can't work due to weather.
An old coworker of mine used to ask folks, " If you were paying me by the hour to build your house, and I didn't show up cuz it was raining, Would you still pay me?"
I always enjoyed the reaction to that question.
Seriously though, several years ago,when I decided to finally respect my family time as much as work time. I started a mandatory shut down between Christmas and new years. And provided all the guys with full pay for all work days missed.
Seems morale around the job is low that time of year, and the weather almost always s**cks. So it was a win/win for the guys and my family.
Almost 20 years in for me, and I've never had a payed day off. Yes there is a mystical, wonderous.romanticism to this job. That's why I wouldn't have it any other way.mike
Almost 20 years in for me, and I've never had a payed day off. Yes there is a mystical, wonderous.romanticism to this job. That's why I wouldn't have it any other way.
Mjesse, your are so 100% right! I think that is the crux of the issue.
In my town, everyone knows an autoworker. Autoworkers have a very strong union. When you hear autoworkers talking with one another, the conversation invariably steers itself to the "I don't really do that much at work", or "I only work 4 hours and get paid 12", of "I have the easiest job in the shop". Of course, they also get about 8 months paid holidays too.
Contrast that mentality to those of the trades. When tradesmen start yapping, they brag about how much they accomplished in one day, or one week, etc.
When I started in the trade, it was immediately inbred in me that if we don't work, we dont get paid.
I wouldn't have it any other way either! All I ask is that I get paid well, WHEN I WORK!
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Edited 3/31/2005 6:34 am ET by blue_eyed_devil
Blue,
I do understand your attitude. I disagree with your premise that it is a defining trait of the people in the trades and why these practices are common and accepted.
I would offer that your attitude is a defining characteristic of most independent business people and not so much of tradesmen.
Are you a businessman who is good with a hammer? Or a framer who likes to pick and choose his employer/project on a daily basis?
I am not sure how getting some paid vacation chains you down and makes you a "slave to the Man."
Tom L.
I am not sure how getting some paid vacation chains you down and makes you a "slave to the Man."
I guess I'll try to explain it again, using myself as an example.
I worked for about 10 years in the Carpentry field before I tried my 2 years stint as a Salaried Carpenter/Superintendent. I was fine the first year. I got my paid week's vacation and all my holidays paid for the first time in my life. Some would think that was great. I took it all in stride. Somewhere in the middle of my second year, I realized that I was getting numb from the routine. Then, one day as I was driving in to work in the rain, I realized that depression was setting in. I thought long and hard about that and realized that in my previous 10 years, I had loved every rain day because when it rained, I didn't work (no work, no pay). Since I had enough money, I didn't mind the no pay, but I loved the no work day.
Then, it happened....the unthinkable. It was the day after Christmas. December 26th. The temparature was about zero. The wind was blowing about 40 miles and hour. Guys in Alaska work in this type of weather. Guys in Michigan don't work in this type of weather. But....there I was going to work, the day after Christmas, to put in formwork for some huge pipe supports in a stinky, oily industrial cesspool called an oil refinery. I'm driving the one hour to work, knowing that there wasn't any chance that anything worthwhile would be done. Why was I going? Because the boss has us scheduled, even though it's a FRIDAY!
Just so you understand, I'm going to repeat that...it was a FRIDAY!
Our boss screwed us out of a four day Christmas holiday weekend, to have me standing in the dark at 7am on the day after christmas, hiding behind a big oil tank, trying to stay out of the wind. I had so much clothes on, that if I fell over, I would have died like a turtle on its back.
So, I leaned against that tank, while the excavator sat in his machine with it idling until 10 am. Then, our fearless leader came over and sent us home.
Now, you have to understand something. I lived my first ten years, working so efficiently, that if you totaled up all the time that I spent leaning against something, while getting paid, it wouldn't add up to three minutes, much less than three hours!
Now please keep the above paragraph in mind when you think of this. I don't like wasting 3 hours of my life, even if I'm getting paid for it. When I was on Salary, I was wasting my life, because the boss was still making money off me. He probably was on a cost plus bid, just like 99% of his work was. That was good for him, he was making money on me on the day after Christmas, but I was wasting my life and I didn't have any control over that.
That pretty much sealed my ties with being on "salary". Never again would I turn over that much control of my life and my time.
Next, we can explore how the union doles out "vacation" pay. That's a joke if I ever heard of one.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
there are no paid vacations or holidays in the carpenter union
we have a vacation fund that we pay into and they send a check once a year but no paid vacations
An inch to short. That's the story of my life !
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
Bstcrpnr, that's how the system worked when I was in it. It never made sense to me then, nor does it make sense to me now.
I guess it's designed to trick the guys into thinking they are actually getting a paid vacation except for one small problem....the vacation pay doesn't come when you take the time off!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Comparing factory workers to skilled tradesmen just because they both have union backing is ridiculous. I worked in a factory once right out of highschool, but for the last 5 years have done union construction work. The attitude on the jobsite is the same as that on a non-union commercial job, and reflects nothing of a factory worker. I have worked with lazy carpenters both union and non-union, you have to earn your $33 an hour here or you will be laid off very quickly. Those who don't make it usualy end up at a residential job for 20 an hour.... where the non-bene providing contractors are happy to have any help.
I guess it just depends on the area. I have busted my @$$ for $10 an hr, I moved and now I do it 33.
What's all this hemming and hawing about not working in the rain? Here in Eugene, OR, that's one of our two seasons! Contractors who don't work in the rain here soon start new jobs saying "you want to biggie size that?"I'm not much for smilicons but I will say I'm just giving you a bad time!MacView Image
Mac, I remember hiring a guy out of Washington. The first week, it started raining and he was amazed that we were rolling up!
I've put on the slickers and worked in the rain and now I know I don't want to. It depresses me because I know I'm supposed to be heading home!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I was a super, building poultry houses. We only took off in raining weather . One morning the guys showed up and I sent two out with slickers I had bought . I wanted the footings relieved of the water as they were full. They were 400 x 40 and there were two flooded. They thought I was being an azz hole . I never explained to them that the foting would not be ready when it quit raining if we didnt do it and we didnt waste any days .
Ive covered lumber in the rain and stuff like that but I dont work in it. Ill go fishing in it though. <G>
Tim
when it's too wet to work, you might as well play golfMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
When I was young and riding with my Dad , it was different.
He must have said in the pickup, "it wont rain long". Sometimes he was right and sometimes we sat and sat, drinking up all our coffee and lunch. At least I know I did .
Of course if we had cover he would file saw blades and sharpen planes and chisels. He did paper work in the truck and he would figgure faster and cheaper ways to build somthing.
When I got a little older , we would sit under a tarp and play liars poker with dollar bills using the serial numbers. Often losing as much as 10 dollars!
Once Dad spent the gas and time to drive to a job that was in the country , we would normally sit and hope for a few hours work before we headed home at 5 or after. If we hadnt worked too much during the day in the summer time , we would get in to a cold supper and being dark outside if we were allowed to work in the evening. That often netted 8 hours or more even if we didnt turn a lick all morning .
We never charged or got paid for sitting however. Gosh that was a long time ago.
Tim
tim.... nice walk down memory lane
i always pay my guys for showing up..
we usually go to a restaurant and have breakfast... ( we start at 7 ).. by the time we finish... the sun usually comes out.. must be living right..
anyways.. i try to keep a stable work enviornment... but it's hard...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Believe me, it's not my preference to work in the rain! And I admit, I'll take a break if the rain turns into a hail storm. One of these days, I'll be at a point financially where I can get a little more picky about my work situations!But hey, summer's coming! I can start at 7, work until 6, make boatloads of cash and not have to deal with any rain at all (until Fall!).Take care,MacView Image
here in vancouver if you choose not to work in the rsain well. You don' work often as it can be raining i the morning for about an hour and then get nice. We get holiday pay as it is the law. Union is 12% usually unless contractor has special deal. And non union is 8%. Most companies pay this on every check leaving the savingsup to every guy. No paid time if you leave because of weather.
"Different strokes for different folks"
That must be it then! I spent my adult life bartending, working in sales on commission, and self employeed as a remodeling carp/contractor.
When I finally did decide to give "real job" a try in carpentry ... I decided even before I called the first ad and had my first interview that if I was going to "give up my freedom" and work for someone else ... I was damn sure gonna be treated like the rest of the employeed population.
I still remember my very first paid holiday.
Wouldn't think of becoming an employee for anything less.
Like ya said .. different strokes.
anyways ... again ... remodeling!
I'm gonna start walkinga round looking up ... the sky's gotta be falling any day now ... or maybe I'll look down ... check for signs of hell freezing over.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
yes the company can hire me. and being a company does take paperwork and money to set up and paperwork to keep going
an LLC is a nice way to go, but like another mentioned, an S corp is good to. However at the time, my CPA, who is also a LLC, said the benfits of an S Corp vs an LLC was not good for me, at this time
however, if I hit a plateau of income and #s of employees, then we will discuss being an S corp
Isa, I believe the LLC is the right choice for the majority of small time contractors and specialty contractors. Done right they offer as much protection as a corp. To thouroghly protect personal assets, the LLC might have to be owned by a trust, but that is another story for those that have something to lose.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Don't even think about setting up an LLC Contracting business in California - it ain't allowed. - lol
"Don't even think about setting up an LLC Contracting business in California - it ain't allowed. - lol"
Dave , wouldnt want to pizz ya off so thats not the intent.
Ive never seen so damn many people glad to get out of a state in my life ! We are getting residents every month from there . Would you care to comment on it ?
Tim
Arkansas, huh? Isn't that the state that has no branches in the family tree? - lol
I grew up in Mazura - near St. Louis - a great place to be from............if you get my drift.
Yup, wure all kin down here.
Seriously I figgure it might be retirement . They made a decision and their gonna back it . The only problem we have is when they want it like it is out there . We dont need goverment control , city , county and state. Thats the biggest problem I see is too many folks got their hand out and are too controlling . At least it seems so to a country boy from this side of the fence . That and weve got a little bit of money still opertating with positive bank accounts in all departments. Were not rich but we aint broke.
Tim
You're right about the retirement thing. The Central Valley out here is filling up fast and lots of people are cashing out their houses and looking for greener (cheaper?) pastures. One thing they don't "get" is that things are different in their new home area. Of course, these are probably the same folks who moved here 30 years ago and - within six months - were whining about "all those darn furriners coming in and wanting to change everything". I guess that the more things change, the more they stay the same - lol
I, for one, won't be moving back to the midwest. I have very few fond memories of those hot, humid, summers. - lol
4 weeks vacation? Standard? You are one of the chosen few. More power to 'ya but don't look behind you because it ain't lasting long. And once you hit 50 (if you're not already) say goodbye to your job security. At that age they can't show you the door fast enough...
- Rob
4 weeks vacation? Standard? You are one of the chosen few. More power to 'ya but don't look behind you because it ain't lasting long. And once you hit 50 (if you're not already) say goodbye to your job security. At that age they can't show you the door fast enough...
They showed me the door a week ago. I am a factory worker (electronic tech) in Ohio and near 50. Yeah they kept the 26 year old guy they hired a few months ago. Things were getting really slow and he was worried because he knew he was next on the cutting block, and we already had some cuts. I told him you can't ever figure out a business, and seniority (age or job time) don't mean anything unless you're union. Now I have no insurance and all they gave me was the 2 1/2 days pay for unused vacation. My last job had nearly 20 days a year off too start!, but those days are about over.
The sad thing is that the 26 year old guy is happy he has "job security". His time is coming.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
He is likely going to be replaced by a Chinese guy in asia, until they find cheaper workers than the chinese. Haitians, suadanese, afghanis, Iraqis that sort of workers. I'm a "skilled worker", but it's getting really bad here. Ohio is the second worst economy in the USA after Michigan. I'm about ready to chuck it all and get out of here. They are still putting up McMansions so some people are making out OK, I got to find a new angle somehow.
Tom, I'll skip over the rest of the posts adn just comment on Calvin's:
"Our companies aren't big enough to absorb the cost."
And there in lies the typical constructin company. When I had 26 field staff or s now wiwth one, vacatoins, holidays, person time, paid seminars, etc are built into mh labor burden. If I can't sell a job at a $85/hr or more labor rate, I cannot sell it at $82/hr. And that lousy $3 - $5 is all the difference between us and white collar staff. That means that $20,000 job where material and subs are about $15 grand, of the remaining 5 grand in labor wold be raised to about $5800. So inseaad of selling the job at $20,000, it wold be sold at $20,800 - no big deal for a saleman, but difficult for a "tradesman" who thinks as a tradesman as opposed to thinking as a businessman.
In short, we're "professional" tradesmen but not "professional" businessmen.
I learned years ago to treat my staff AND myself - if I might be NOT politically correct and say - as white folks. Slavery and treating people as 2nd class citizens went out of vogue decades ago. You is what you think you is! And generally we don't think much of ourselves.
As you can see sonny, I'm am a bit of both your answers. Build it in your overhead or labor burden whatever, and it doesn't sound so scary to the customer and spreads it around to each in the same way. And the flip side, for the shy, non business savvy one man show-you don't do it because you feel it'll price yourself outta the market. Oddly, many of us don't even make the time to take a vacation.
Perhaps the most horrible thing that happens, is you turn around after 30 years and say whaaa.............t happened.
thank you again for your sage advice.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Calvin, you're right. I will never - ever - undersand why people like us are so willing to sell out our own lives, our families, our money, our physical status, the list goes on - for complete strangers , then whine to our spouses cause they want us to take the time to take them to a movie when we're tired, or wash the kitchen floor.Newbies here should think hard about whom it is that really deserves their "love", commitment, understanding, and compassion, and finally TIME - and then think hard about what goes with that love.That's why I often call us the schmuks we are or have been until we get smart Life is not a game where we ge to play it again whenever we want too. That also goes for seeing our kids grow, our parents age and die, and our bodies fall apart.We got one shot, and that's it!I forgot to mention that during my schmuck years I actually postponed two vacatons becasuse customers pleaded with me to do their projects first. What a big azzhole I was.Edited 3/25/2005 10:45 pm ET by Sonny Lykos I also forgot to mention that during that time period I also went on sales calls, or worked, on holidays - for customers - at my own and my family's expense. Make that a DOUBLE azzhole!Don't do it. Pay yourself and our staff - and take off..
Edited 3/25/2005 10:48 pm ET by Sonny Lykos
to comment on the union rule that makes sense. we no longer get 2 hour show up pay. We get on ehour in this new contract, and If I (the foreman) can call you on your cell phone and you are one block away you wont get the one hour. Gas is expensive right now, i think it is only right to pay showup. My boss (former actually) does not think tht is the case. I do however plan to pay 2 hour showup pay for the 2 guys today. This is our first rain day since start of business. Is tomorrow (saturday) overtime since we didn't work today?
An inch to short. That's the story of my life !
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
I think legally, it's straight time.
The problem with show up time pay, with regards to rain is that if I have to pay it, you're going to work. There will never be another day off because of rain. The sell rain coats and rubber gloves, boots and hats. If you want show up time, you better have that gear!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Saturdays are always time and a half, Sundays and holidays are double. Anything over 8 in a day is time and a half.
2 hour show up time, 8 hours minimum if you work more than 5 hours.
Then again I can be laid off for no reason for any amount of time.
Why would you possibly think that a small construction company could offer the same kind of bennies that a Fortune 20 company can, especially when you showed that the company/corporation pulled in over $50B? How can there be any similarity in pay structure, benefits, or profit? Have you ever crunched the numbers for a small business that is so affected by weather unpredictability, material/fuel costs and is at a small scale(<$500K/yr)? Small percentages add up really quickly when there isn't a lot of revenue. 4 weeks of pay and no productivity directly attributed to that time is hard to justify from an accounting standpoint, isn't it?
Obviously, a woodworking shop will keep going if it's raining or snowing, but think about the unpredictable things. ex.- you have already submitted a bid on a good sized job and signed the contract. You start the job and use some materials that were on hand, but the cost of most of the materials needed goes up 20% between the signing and when you order them. What do you do? It's a contract. The customer isn't going to agree to higher materials costs. What if you want to expand your business and need more employees, but don't have enough business to keep them busy and the market for your services takes a downturn? How long can you absorb that? What if you want to land a big job, but don't have the staffing/facilities for it and need to act fast in order to get the job but the customer will only agree to have you do it after inspecting your operation? How long will it take to fill the staffing/facilities requirements and how long will you be able to keep everyone busy?
How much profit do you think you'll be making on the work you want to do?
"You start the job and use some materials that were on hand, but the cost of most of the materials needed goes up 20% between the signing and when you order them. What do you do? It's a contract. The customer isn't going to agree to higher materials costs."
Seems reasonable to me there be a clause in the contract stating the volitility of material prices requires a deposit at signing to cover all materials for that very reason. Free speech leads to a free society.
Seems reasonable, but it depends on the actual contract and the customer's willingness to understand this. If it were that easy for all contractors to CYA, wouldn't more of them show a profit(or, less of a loss)?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Easy, Tom, if they didn't offer you guys all those perks those skyscrapers would empty out in a hurry. Hah, hah, ha...
Idon't know about the U.S. but here in Ontario, Canada, most skilled trade unionists receive approx 10 % of their earnings in Vacation pay. This is usually paid once or twice a year, or whenever there is a lay-off.
most of the other non-union people get (by law ) a 2 or a 4 % Vac. pay.
Union trades -men, (most trades ) get 2 or 3 hours show up time.
Sorry for taking so long to respond everyone...
This seems to be a good topic - thanks for your responses.
First, I do understand that small businesses particularly those with only a few (<10) employees find it more difficult to absorb the costs of benfits like vacation pay. However, in response I would point you to Sonny's post about building it into Overhead and treating your staff like human beings (IMO). I don't think the guys who don't pay vacation are evil because if the worker accepts those terms, tough on him.
But I do disagree with the practice. It just doesn't feel right to me, and I grew up the son of land surveyor who didn't pay rain time or vacation to his field crews for a LONG time. I know its standard practice, but that doesn't make it right.
On big companies and outsourcing... I am in the midst of a large undertaking to send work to India. It sucks, but in keeping with my statement about accepting a job without vacation pay - I am a strict believer in the labor market and the rights of employers and employees to seek the best deal, wherever it shows up. Now, I might just get canned here in the next 18 months because of it. Guess I had best find a better way to compete - and I already have an MBA. I hope the folks in Bangalore are getting decent benefits though. This sure makes me anxious but I simply believe its my employers right to find the best combination of people and price to serve their customers and shareholders. Just as its my right to jump ship for a better offer.
On the Temp Agency idea - perhaps because of your size this may not apply. However, be careful with that. I know it comes up in discussion here as to what constitutes an employee vs. a subcontractor. It seems this practice is dancing on the line, not that it is a bad practice... it does make a lot of sense. In the white collar world, to put it in perspective though, Microsoft got slapped down hard about 4 years ago on this issue. They employed dozens of contractors during their earlier but still booming years in order to keep costs down. The courts ruled in favor of a bunch of these contractors that got scr### out of Millions - yes Millions - of dollars in stock, salary, etc... because they were not treated like employees. This was despite working for MS and only MS for years. I almost lost my job at the time because employed in a similar fashion...
Thanks, Tom L.
Now the Union talk gets me going....
I agree with paying for a rain day, IMO its a cost of doing business. I also disagree with lay offs in the slow times. Its tough to keep paying someone when theres no work (whether because its raining today or because the grounds too cold to dig), but you entered the contract willingly and with eyes wide open. Figure it out before you hire them - and just like vacation time - build it into Overhead.
I know many will argue that vacation, insurance, rain days, etc... make it too costly to stay in business. I ask you then - is it really a business you want to be in, if you can't treat people that way?
Don't get me wrong though, I have no use for Unions. I agree with their principles not with their existence.
Tom L.
Figure it out before you hire them - and just like vacation time - build it into Overhead.
That statement makes it obvious that you don't have any understanding of our industry.
You are trying to apply a salary type existence onto our industry. I for one had a salaried job as a construction superintendent/working carpenter. I would never, ever, ever, ever take another job like that.
You are not understanding the independent nature of the skilled trades.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Tom,
I've been coming back to read this thread about twice a day. I've come to a conclusion. It would seem to me that you are doing a whole bunch of soul searching. You would preffer to be working with your hands but are having a hard time balancing what you want to do with what you get for it.
In the last two years I have done a bunch of the same soul searching. Hopefully what I'm about to type helps in some way. If not at least you got to read a really long boring post on a lazy Saturday.
WHen I married my wife she was a " Vet Tech", what should be the Animal world equivelant of a Registered Nurse. She had attended a two year college, done an internship and passed a state board.
She loved her work and was happy for the first few years. She was young. As time went on she started to look around and try to figure out where her life was going. She noticed two things that set the tone for what was to come in the future.
First, except for the Doctors themselves, their was no standard level of training or certification. SO after three years to earn a license from the state she got to work with other women who were just trained on the job and not licensed. Few of them would have made it past year one in any acredited program. But, they got to call themselves " Vet Techs" also. It makes it harder to demand top dollar when someone else can come along and ask for half of what you want. Even though they have no credentials, the public is none the wiser.
Second, Most Vets are terrible business men. I once read in one of her trade journals that 80% of all Vets are broke at retirement. They fail to build a business that has any value in their absence. They fail to plan for retirement. They drastically under charge. Most have no idea what their operating expenses are or what they need to charge to cover their overhead and make a profit. Most take all the money the hospital or clinic generates and spend it. ( she was employed by a fairly reputable local animal hospital for about 6 years. When she left another girl called her and told her to check her SS# account. Turns out that for six years she worked there, he took out taxes and SS and never paid uncle sam. A not too uncommon story in her field)
They pay and benifits were never in line with her responsibility or what was expected of her.
TAKE EVRY THING I HAVE WRITTEN BOVE AND APPLY IT TO THE CONSTRUCTION TRADES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
While sitting at home with our first daughter she started to think about what to do next. Nursing school! She now gets the respect she deserves. She has great benefits. And, so far she is on track to make about $75K to $80K in her first Full year as an RN.
The Big difference? You can't just call yourself an "RN" you have to earn it. Also, people hospitals are businesses not hobbies or " a job you own" like a vet clinic often is.
I'll not bore you with the details of how I find myself in my current position. But I will tell you this. With the rare exception of the days I get to do Real Army stuff as opposed to the day to day tasks associated with running a Guard unit, not a single day goes by that I wouldn't preffer to be framing or trimming or building a stair or a putting in a stair rail (Nothing beats blazing across open ground in your vehicle with 9 M1A1's behind you, an OH 58 above you and Apachies popping up every now and then. Just doesn't happen to me very often lately). But I have to balance what I want to do with what I need to do.
Most construction companies are small. They are run by tradesmen, not businessmen. They face very stiff competition.They have few employees generating any significant profit to spread the cost of things like benefits and vacation across. Carpentry and many of the other trades require no licenses in many states and in many that do require a license the standards are a joke. Sound Kinnda like the Vet business?
Yes some guys do strive to run a true business. Maybe 50% of them make it as a true business.
From my own experience that spans being an employee, having a few employees, and being a sole proprietor/artisan type guy, here is what I've learned.
1. There exists a break point with employees. depending on how you run it, some employees can be less profitable tha none. If you can reach a certain number of employees ( Enough for you to become the manager/salesman) you can make good money and treat them right. To reach that point is seldom an easy task( ask some of the guys around here).
2. As a sole proprietor/artisan type who works every day you can make a decent living but you'll most likely never get rich and you won't be able to afford all the things you get with a big company.
3. If you want to be a business man and not be out there swinging your hammer every day you can make good money and take care of your employees. IF and that's a pretty big IF you have what it takes to build that business.
As I have one kid that nears college(Two years away) I'm not in the position to risk it. Working alone I would need to bill $65 an hour 40 hours a week 48 weeks a year in order to cover my expenses and come anywhere close to my current level of compensation. Around my area I would be competing with guys who make think $25 an hour is good money. I bring home net just over $1K a week. I've got more than a few friends who work alone who have never seen that figure as net weekly income. SOme of them after ten or fifteen years
You have to decide how important those benifts are to you. You also need to decide if you want to run a woodworking shop with employees who generate income so you can manage estimate and sell. Or, one where you do all the work and live off of what you generate.
Either way, the benefits here will never match what you have now. It's economy of scale. The company you work for now only needs to make X cents per widget to cover the benefit package where as a company of 8 guys needs to make X dollars per widget to cover the same expenses.
Oh yeah, almost forgot, The romatic notion of the rugged individual that Blue talked about is why I so long to be a framer isntead of an Operations NCO. And, I loved rainy days better when I didn't get paid for them and could just screw around.
That was an excellent summation Robert!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Robert,
First - my apologies on taking so long to return to this thread. I have been distracted by work, good weather, etc... and missed your addition.
You have really hit the nail on the head as far as my personal situation. I am very conflicted when it comes to choice of careers. I have made choices to build my life as close to the way I want it as I can. However, this is far from perfect. This is perhaps the biggest reason I visit breaktime - in the hopes of gaining some insight that will assist me in taking a more fulfilling career direction. That and the excellent banter.
Back to the topic at hand... I agree that the massive company I work for has scale on its side with regard to employee compensation/benefits. The purpose of the question was more to examine why construction trades often take such different stances on those benefits.
I feel for you though - at least I've never been in an M1A1 so I can't miss it... Must be a wild ride! I only miss one career that could have been...
Thanks!
Tom
Finally, a topic I have some experience with. I'm kind of in the same situation as you and I've often wondered why the trades aren't treated like other professional jobs as far as salary, benefits etc. I understand where Blue is coming from but I also think that if the trades were more similar to non-trade professions then there wouldn't be the shortage of good help that everyone seems to complain about. But I have no firsthand knowledge of that, and it's just a guess, so please don't pile on me for that.
I did, however, have a chance to explore "the other side" a few years ago. I was still in my 20s and living at home, working in retail management. I hated it so much that I got myself fired. I needed a job, and because I was an avid woodworker, I went around to some of the local cabinet and millwork shops in the area (I was living in RI at the time). I jawboned one of them into hiring me for something like $6 an hour. I couldn't believe my good fortune, because now I got to work with tools all day long.
Of course it wasn't too long before the novelty wore off and the pay was too little to deal with. Eventually it became a "job", and wasn't nearly as much fun as working on my projects in my shop. After 6 months I left and joined the corporate world, where I am today. The moral, obviously, is that it really seems like a fantastic deal to be working with your hands and making things when all you do all day is punch a keyboard and sit in pointless meetings with clods that drone incessantly, but the reality is almost always very different. You've become very used to what is probably a cushy job (relatively speaking) and such a sudden, radical change would twist your worldview into a pretzel in no time. (Again, I know nothing about you otherwise, so I could be talking out of my azz, and I apologize if I am.)
Try doing sidework for a while-one offs and things like that. You'll get a better feel for what it takes to do it for pay. My guess is you will find that it is much less enjoyable than you might have imagined. I do "handyman" work on the weekends and nights, and while it satisfies the urge to do that kind of work for pay (and helps pay the bills), I like working on my own house much more.
Sorry for the long post. I thought my experience might be helpful. And hopefully no one takes anything I've written as disrespectful.
Edit: I just reread your first post and I see that you have had experience outside the corporate world. Sorry for wasting your time. Maybe some lurkers are out there with the same questions and this can help them instead.
Edited 4/14/2005 10:15 am ET by johnniev
Edited 4/14/2005 10:15 am ET by johnniev