We are in the midst of having an addition built. Here are some pics of the rafters where they meet the gluelam beam that runs down the center of the addition. On one side of the beam the rafters meet the beam flush, just about perfect. On the other side of the beam there is a gap varying from one shim’s depth to the depth of a piece of 1/2″ OSB plus a shim (which is what the crew used to bring the rafters out to the correct dimension).
Is this OK? It looks shoddy of course but is it going to hold up? If I ask him to fix it how should it be done?
This is the first real problem issue we’ve had with this builder and I’d like to know what other contractors think.
Thanks all!
Karen
Looking straight up at the beam:
http://www.belliesandbuns.com/personal/framingproblem/P1010027.jpg
This is probably the clearest picture of the problem, and the worst of it. The bottom couple inches of the rafter aren’t touching anything at all:
http://www.belliesandbuns.com/personal/framingproblem/P1010026.jpg
Replies
The fix is to replace the rafters. You knew that, right?
Joe H
EDIT: You ask is it shoddy? It ain't even close to shoddy.
Edited 6/21/2003 10:04:30 PM ET by JoeH
Actually, 25 shows more of what I needed to see to understand this.
Nice ambitious project, BTW, and I hope your family emergency is all over for now.
overall, it looks like they did neat work but they seem to have precut all the rafters without checking to see if they figured right, and then made the wrong choice of how to proceed when they discovered the mistake.
There are more errors than you asked about.
I see no hardware making the connection. That is fine for some framing but not for this cathedral ceiling style.
Not only is there a lack of hardware connectors, but there are only three toenails from one side of each rafter.
On that side where the rafter comes short and OSB is used for a shim, those nails have much less penetration into the beam. BTW, that beam is a doubled LVL and not a glulam. With the rafters being barely connected to the ridge beam, there is little to stop them from sliding downhill and forcing the walls out as time goes by.
Another thing that concerns me is the shaft of light sliding between the two LVLs in one photo. That tells me that there is no construction adhesive binding the two together. I wonder if the engineers specified fastening schedule was followed to build this beam or if there are just a few nails tacking it together. This is far easier to correct by adding the required number of carriage bolts or nails.
Fixes-
Whew! I'm going to get in deep here, so disclaimers first - It should be your archy, engineer, or building inspector for the local permiting agency that makes that determination.
Obviously, the right way is to remove the rafters and re-install them right. That doesn't look like a very practical solution at this stage of the game though. Falling short of that....
They should probably use a sawsall to slice apart the joints between ridge beam and all rafters on the loose side and remove the OSB shims. Then they slide in a continuous OSB shim the height of the LVL, attaching it to the LVL with glue and nails so that it becomes one with the rige beam. Then the rafters can be fastened to the beam with toenails and hardware.
or
They could cut sister rafter tops the same pitch to fit tight to the ridge and about two feet long, and glue and nail them to each rafter and to the ridge. They would still need some hardware and now that it is for double thickness, it is harder/more expensive to get.
Another potential jury rig solution would be to use structurqal metal strapping to run over the ridge on the outside and fasten it down through the sheathing to each rafter, tying the opposing rafters to each other. I would not expect that to work well in areas with high wind or snow loads. It would depend entirely on the shear strength of the fasteners.
Good luck.
Excellence is its own reward!
Maam, that is totally unacceptable framing. As already stated, those rafters have got to be replaced...it's a ridge beam for crying out loud! Have them close up those 1/2" gaps between your glulams while they're at it. Shouldn't be too big of a deal, however, unfortunatley, the gaps could mean something else may be wrong. Either building isn't square, walls are out of plumb, cut man was out too late...could be a number of things. If everything else checks out ok, they could just sister new rafters that are cut correctly to the ones already up, this would avoid ripping the thing down. Let us know how you make out with your sub.
I did some more studying. Here is the right solution.
They have to remove some OSB sheathing from the ridge row on the shortcut side to do this.
They need to recut the rafters from above to exactly 1-3/4" from the existing ridge beam. Then they insert another LVL so that the ridge is now made up of a triple LVL(Laminated Veneeer Lumber)
now the rafters fit tight to the beam and they can do what they should have done before sheathing it which is to use enough nails and hardware to hang the rafters to the beam.
Excellence is its own reward!
Excellent solution! And less hassle/expense than replacing the entire side of the roof.Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
Everything Piffin and Dieselpig said I agree with.
It is unacceptable. This must be the first roof this guy has ever cut befor. My 4 year old son can cut closer than that.
If they cut all the rafters from the same pattern that means that there all the same size. Therefor either your Double LVL ridge could have a bow in it and is not straight which means that the walls are bowed out towards the side where the rafters are tight.
Or the ridge is straight and they braced it and nailed all the rafters on the one side that's tight first. Which means that the wall on the other side could have a bow in it or if the wall is perfectly straight, that means the wall is not paralel with the other wall. You said that it starts out with a shim thickness and goes to a 1/2 piece of plywood.
That means that the room could be 12' on one side and 12'1/2" on the other side.
Also in Piffin's picture the rafters don't look like there all level with eachother, the top plane of the rafters are higher than the ridge, you can tell by the plywood. Your sheetrock ceiluing would look like and ocean.
A real Vaulted ceiling with no collar ties in it should have a bigger beam then what you have there and most of the time the rafters sit on top of the structural beam, this way your walls wont pop out.
From what I see here they better be putting in collar ties somewhere.
They also should have Hurricane clips nailed to the rafter and the wall top plates.
Pull your tape out and measure the room from one side to the other see if there the same measurement and also string a line on both rafter walls as high up as you can go and see if there bowed.
I'm not trying to scare you and I'm sure no one else is but I hate to see garbage work like this and see you get in trouble. It's good that you came here because everyone here will give you good advise.
Let us know what happens.
Joe Carola
Joe, I didn't catch that alignment thing. good eyes.
my supposition is that the way this came to be is that he cut rafter length based on formulae but that when he subtracted the ridge width, he figured a full 4" instead of 3-1/2". Then when he found out it was wrong, he used that four letter word - OOps! - and kept right on steaming along. That's the point he lost my respect, instead of fixing it when it was easy.
This shot makes it easier to see some stuff. The beam seat is unique....
Excellence is its own reward!
An afterthought...looks like the rafter over the gable end is off as well...possible that the gable wall was simply framed incorrectly, setting the ridge too high and quite possibly out of level. Did that once myself once. What a P I the A. What did you mean by "the beam seat is unique"?
Maybe he's talking about this.
Joe Carola
Joe's got it right. There is a side stud stabilizing on one side of the ridge only and (he covered up part of the under supporting left stud) the left supporting stud is a half inch protruding beyuond the ridge itself. It is hard to see that because the grain gets dark right there in the shadow.
I lifted thesse photos by just changing the URL she provided us slightly at the photo number at the end.
This is a small kitchen remodel and bedroom addition, from the rest of her website/personal..
Excellence is its own reward!
I suppose it could also have come from framing that end too high, but like Joe says, you cut one pair and climb up to check it out before you assume yyou can cut a whole slew of refters....
Excellence is its own reward!
Right, I getcha now. Reason I mentioned the gable was that I thought I read that the gaps fade from a shim on up to a shim+1/2" osb. I thought maybe this represented the ridge "climbing" up to it's out of level position. Wouldn't the gap be consistent if the rafters were simply too short? I suppose it could be a combination of everything. The gable framed correctly, the rafters too short, one end of the ridge set against an existing "cheek wall", the other end in the new gable resulting in an out of level ridge and an increasing gap. Is this the line of thinking you are on?
Any and all possible. We'd have to be there to be sure.
I love these detective games, don't you? At least we haad info and good pictures to speculate on this time.
edit - the important thing is less to know how he screwed up - that's his problem - but to advise how to find the best or most efficient fix. I'd triple the beam if I were called in to repair the mess.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 6/22/2003 12:44:08 AM ET by piffin
Piffin, Diesel, Framer,
You guy's are good.
Interesting "detective work" going on. And to quote Piffin
"At least we haad info and good pictures to speculate on this time."
Note to all, this REALLY (the pics and hyperlink) does help.
I've been away from BT for awhile (or should I say, not as much) but reading stuff like this is how many of us learn.
Thanks All
Yes, the gaps grow from a shim (at the existing house wall) to a shim + 1/2" OSB (at the gable end wall).
Karen
Then when he found out it was wrong, he used that four letter word - OOps! - and kept right on steaming along.
Guys like that probably use the words, "F!!K IT, YOU CAN'T SEE IT FROM MY HOUSE"
Your absolutely right, they probably figured the rafters at 4" instaed of 3-1/2".
They should've fixed it when it was easy. You or I would have. But then again, you and I would have made a couple patterns first and checked them to see if they fit nice befor cutting 30, 50 or 100 rafters.
Ive been doing this a long time and I still check. You have people asking a million questions when your laying out a rafter, you can always make a mistake somewhere. It takes two seconds to check.
Joe Carola
re: collar ties - our plans were done by a local archy and passed through permits with no trouble. Are there situations in a vaulted room when they are *not* necessary? This room is not large, about 18 wide and 16 long with a shed roof bump out for the back door and a closet.
Here's a pic from the back:
I think that what Joe was saying was that in his area it is more common to run the rafters over the beam and let it show in the room, possibly with a wrap. It is just as common in other places to have it hide within the framing like yours. collarties are just anther connection method. For your situation, you need good hardware at the joint you show.
Oh God!
I almost lost my lunch when I looked at this recent photo. I'm sea-sick from watching that roof roll.
Can't tell whether it is from the sloppy rafter cutting or if the wall is out of level and plumb. You have a mess going on there. The multiple top plates in one wall showing to the right tell me that he couldn't plan the job and knows little about framing.
I take back every thing I tried to say nice about him. I'm throwing tact to the winds and ready to make him walk the plank.
I know you are trying to hold to a budget but it looks like you went bottom fishing on this one.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
I agree
When ever I see multiple plates and shims like that it tells me one thing.
They screwed up
Up here we call them butchers and that 's probably giving butchers a bad name
Yes, I do love playing "detective". I too learn from doing it. I worked for a guy once and he was a butcher...bang 'em up and move on. He got alot of call backs and we all know those usually aren't much fun, so he'd send me to mop up. As much as I disliked it I learned an awful lot about cumulative errors. Not taking the time to fix something as soon as it is noticed can cause twice as much work in the end...or worse. In framing, errors can compoud quickly and turn a job into a nightmare before you know it huh? Looking at the last photo there I would say you are right on the money...this guy is in over his head with roof cutting, which is kinda scary because it's a pretty straight forward roof. That stack of plates is a major red flag...only time I wanna see more than two plates is on a bastard hip and even then careful layout and planning can avoid it there sometimes.
I'd like to think I have some roof cutting under my belt, although it seems there is always something new to learn. (I'd love to learn how to cut jacks the way Joe does). But even still, you gotta know when to slow down and start laying things out, full scale if necessary, to get yourself headed in the right direction. Heel stands, changes in plate height, changes in pitch, different size stock, all make me get real careful, real quick.
I love roof cutting, I honestly think that it's the "stair building" or "mantle construction" of the framing world. It is an art that can be dabbled in or mastered. "Roof Cutters Secrets" rides shot gun in the truck and Will Holliday is my Gary Katz. I love that I had a job that always challenges me and where I always feel there is more to be learned. I feel it is imperative to remain teachable in construction.
This discussion has been a fine example of why I love this forum so much. Karen recieved some good advice. Anyone reading the post recieved some good information. And I assume that like myself, you and Joe got to do a little mental calastenics. Viva la Breaktime! or something like that :)
How about some shots of the inside of that little room in the back? What's the plan for the roof? Replace all, or more hack work ahead there too?
This guy has a long way to go before his work approaches shoddy.
Might I ask how you selected him as your builder?
Joe Fusco is right, you need another builder to fix this. Anyone who could do this is not capable of fixing it, and may not even understand there's anything wrong with it.
Joe H
We used ServiceMagic initially to find them. We checked references, about 8 of them, all positive, and had multiple discussions with him before choosing his company. No, we didn't go "bottom fishing" as someone said previously. Everything checked out on him.
The "little room" is a bump out where the back door anda closetare. The plan is for a shed roof, which isn't there yet.
Now that I'm totally freaked out about all this, what to do next? Anybody here want to recommend someone to us? Obviously my method of checking references and having lengthy discussions with the guy didn't work. What else would you all suggest?
If you tell us where your from maybe someone here is close by or knows someone in your area.
Print out everything that was mentioned here. At least you have some ammunition behind you.
All the things that were mentioned here leaves you with alot of questions to ask a qualified contractor if you bring one in. Then again don't say a word, let him tell you what's wrong, that will prove if he knows what he's talking about. Unless you get someone from here to help, then your in good shape.
Hope it all works out for you.
BTW, can you take a picture from the inside of the room where the rafters sit on the top plate?
Joe Carola
OK, I take back my thoughts about personal acquaintance.
It probably won't fall down onyour head but you do have a problem going on. As long as money is in your pocket you have a lever to control him. If he is prepaid, you better have a good contract and a good lawyer.
You will have the inspector on your side for sure. ( if not - they need to demote him to checking the depth of septic systems) You may be able to ask him who does good work in your area. He probably can't outright make recommendations but if you word it right, he can get you pointed the proper way.
You could hire an engineer or the archy to detail what is wrong and how to fix it and make that document part of any agreement going forward.
I don't believe the one who did this knows how to fix it..
Excellence is its own reward!
We are in Cincinnati, OH, not the city proper but a "city" in one of the suburbs. We plan to call the inspector first thing in the morning to ask questions about all this and see if he'll come out for a little impromptu inspection even tho the framing isn't finished yet.
I mentioned "builder" and "having an addition built" in my OP. Sorry, I thought that was clear that we hired a professional.
The 3/4" shimming you are seeing below the floor joists is a strip of OSB that was laid on top of the 2x4 plate. Didn't know this wasn't normal. The strip goes all the way around the foundation.
He has only been paid 10% of the contract so far, so money is still leverage at this point.
Yes, I can take a pic ofwhere the rafters sit on the top plate tho I won't get it posted til Tuesday (borrowed camera).
Thanks for all the help thus far. Take it easy on me, we truly did what we thought we should to check the guy out before we hired him.
Karen
We're here to do what we can to help. The only DIYs that get beat up are the one who already think they know it all.
Even we get shocked at some of the stuff that happens in this industry. It's a place where caveat emptor still rules. Sorry .
Excellence is its own reward!
Third Kitchen,
I'm going to stick my neck out a little farther here after reviewing this whole thing and risk getting personal without intenbding to offend you.
I'm not psychic and sometimes I'm wrong on these things, but I want to ask you whether this builder is husband, brother, BIL, Boyfriend or something other than a professional builder. Knowing that might help me be a little more forgiving. Not of the workmanship but of the person doing it.
I see a number of indications this might be so.
>You never mentioned a contractor. Only "him"
>>The work is the level one might expect from an inexperienced person. In the exterior elevation photo, I see that the floor joists were shimmed up 3/4" indicating a lack of planning or of knowledge that the 2x10 floor joists were actually 9-1/4". The stacked multiple wall plates ready to roll are another indication. I also think that the exterior sheathing is set flush with the OS dimension of the frame and the subflooring is exposed. These are all errors no carpenter would do.
The roll in the roof is probably part and parcel of the same thing that leaves the rafters unconnected to the ridge. There may be a lot of things for the inspector to look closely at. If I am right about the source of this workmanship, I applaud the courage it has taken to get thus far but I join with others encouraging you to find qualified local help to correct and finish.
There are structural issues here but theree may be other issues also that could get quite expensive as you go forward compounding arror upon error.
For instance, are dimensions shown on the archy's plans frame to frame or finish to finsh? Do it wrong and the cabinets won't fit when they arrive.
Does your man know what rough opening is for windows and doors? It's not the same as nominal dimensions.
Can he read a level? You'll want your doors and windows to work right.
I noticed on the other part of your website that you have only paid out about 750 for archy services. That is very little so I suppose that he did a limited "budget" floorplan drawing or a concept drawing with no working drawings, elevations, or detail drawings. That could be fine for a good builder who is used to working these things out but it might be handicapping an unseasoned person.
We're anxious to help where we can. The photos provide plenty of info but any more background you want to provide can help further thgo you might have to duck a couple of frag grenade comments along with the good stuff.
Like I saiud, Good Luck!
;).
Excellence is its own reward!
Karen,
You should stop posting pictures of this work because the comments are only going to get worse. You need to find a builder who has some idea of what's going on to help "repair?" what has already been done.
Even thought the folks here have given you great advice on "how" to deal with and solve some of the conditions, do you realy think the guy who did the work in the first place can/will fix/repair it? I doubt it.
Good luck. View Image
re: collar ties - our plans were done by a local archy and passed through permits with no trouble. Are there situations in a vaulted room when they are *not* necessary?
Yes, As long as the Ridge is Structurally Strong enough.
As Piffin said, around here NJ alot of additions or homes we frame have big rooms sometimes 25' to 35' long with 2x10 and 2x12 rafters. With a Gluelam we drop them under the rafters and you can get them sanded so when there exposed like that you can stain them. If you don't like the way they look you can dress them up anyway you want .
In your case, I didn't really know how big your room is and if your ridge even looked strong enough to support everything. But you do as Piffin said get the proper hardware.
For us around here we've done it mostly with the rafters on top.
Joe Carola
You've Got an Archy!!!
Copy all the pages of this thread to a floppy and take it and paper pics to your archy and see what he says. This will be more ammunition for your case. And you do have a case.
This looks like the work of the framer[?] that framed the last house I repaired/reengineered. Totally incompentent to deal with surprises.
Cumulative-errors/surprises often start at the foundation, that means that sometimes the repair needs to be thought through from the foundation to the point of actual fix.
IMHO you should give one of us a personal look at the site, if only for more of that ammo mentioned above. Where is it?
SamTSleepless in Columbia. Diurnal rithym? What songs did they do?
In the pic with the stacked top plates...looks like the rim joist is shimmed with a layer of osb, and the bottom layer of 2x4 is not treated lumber. We build on slabs, so maybe that comment doesn't mean anything.
If you (he) were to add a third lvl, would you bevel the top edge so the roof deck could pas over it without creating too much of a flat spot?
Do it right, or do it twice.
After you mentioned that sill plate, I looked again. It looks to me like it may be PT but it is only 2x4 which makes me wonder how he got anchor bolts into it. But oh well, when the inspector doesn't even know anything about framing...well, I already said he is only fit for inspecting septage.
All I can do is laugh it off. Sorry Karen. The advise about paying an engineer or archy for a detail report is good. This is crap work. If I had a framing sub try to get paid for that, I'd laugh him out of town and back charge him for fixing his garbage work.
Wish I could help you but it's all I can do to save this part of the world....
Excellence is its own reward!
Although I haven't as of yet posted, I have been keeping track of this thread. My deal is, yes you got substandard framing that I personally wouldn't accept, but the same/similar situations happen every day in my life as a production framer, and like it or not, it's a fact of life nowadays. I have left many a job disgusted b/c my cut man cut all the rafters for a vaulted ceiling w/o checking the span, and we went from butt-crack tight (pardon the language) to nails barely holding the rafters in place at the other end.
While I can't tell you exactly how to best resolve this situation, I would like to leave you with the knowledge that you are not the only one out there who has entrusted others to do satisfactory work, only to be duped by hacks. However, I would definitely get the opinion of a structural engineer, as well as giving the inspector a LONG opportunity to walk through what has already been done and give it CLOSE consideration.
In any case good luck!Quality before Quantity
Jason,
I'm going to Race Dieselpig to come out and get you to work for me. Or will just split you in half. ;-)
PS. Don't give Dieselpig your correct address. ;-)
Joe Carola
Joe,
If I hadn't just bought a house I'd prostitute myself to both of you LOL. BTW I called a guy I knew yesterday who had an ad for a "lead man"; I told him I was his competitor's main "helper"...long story short he said to keep in touch as some of his help wasn't working out...who knows, but I've at least broken the "I owe my boss something" threshold.
(P.S.) Sorry to ThirdKitchen for hijacking their thread with this post.Quality before Quantity
I'll just kidnap him! A blindfold on the ride up to MA will keep him from figuring out how to get home...just like they did to me on the way to bootcamp!
No blindfolds for me en route to Ft. Benning but then again it maight have been for the better if they had LOL!Quality before Quantity
Called builder, he will be here this afternoon to look.
Building inspector was here already this morning, says the rafters are tight against the shims and that they won't be a problem. Re: multiple plates, says no problem there either, it's stronger than a stud wall. Re: double LVLs not fastened to each other, said that's fine.
So basically I have no leg to stand on with this. I guess the good news is that we don't live in earthquake, tornado or hurricane country nor will we be spending the rest of our lives in this house.
Karen
Are you serious?
Is the inspector related to the builder? Buds?
Edited 6/23/2003 9:52:49 AM ET by IMERC
Highly doubtful. The guy I hired doesn't work in my area often and I'm pretty sure this is his first job in this "city" (really just an organized suburb).
You're stuck now. A not even schlock job that the Inspector sez is good. What's his background? Promoted from some other job he couldn't handle?
Joe H
Might be time to pay an engineer or archy a few bucks to come to the site and write a report.Do it right, or do it twice.
Karen,
The framing will pass if the shims are solid. They do give the members full bearing. The problem will arise when all those shims dry out. As for the “built-up”. . . the same holds true. It is stronger then a stud wall, but it’s going to shrink like hell.
At the least have the builder remove the shims and provide one of the fixes recommended here.
View Image
Update:
First off, thanks for all the comments. I've been hemming and hawing about what to do and late this afternoon I called a structural engineer. I explained the situation, he said he didn't want to get between me and the builder, I said I didn't want him to get in the middle of all this, all I wanted was for him to come out some time when the crew isn't here working to inspect everything they've done so far and tell me if it's OK. He asked about the building inspector, I said M had been out. He said I thought D did all the inspections over there (the engineer is in an adjoining community). I said I dunno, I had been speaking to M and he had come out and said everything was OK. Hmm.... SO the guy relents and says call me back in the morning (it was after 5:30 already) to setup an appointment and I'll come look.
Right before all this transpired I found out that b/c everyone and their second cousins are refinancing right now that we can't close on our loan until July 1. When I heard that I was halfway hoping the builder would say OK, then we'll have to suspend work til you can make that payment. Right after I got off the phone with the engineer dh called and said the builder did indeed say we'll have to wait til the loan closes. Fine by me. They haven't cut any holes in the side of my house yet, only a few nails in the existing roof for the rafters over the shed bump out.
So that's where we are with all this.
Oh, I did find out that we will indeed have collar ties up under the ridge beam.
One question, unrelated to this issue: We have an overhang of about 12" on both the gable end and one side of the shed roof. How should those be framed? Right now they aren't finished but there is a 2x6 nailed to the underside of the sheathing out at the edge. I asked the builder and he said there will be a 1x?? face board across the front plus "chicken ladder" which he described as 2x pieces nailed in between the 2x6 and the rafters to brace it. Is that right? Also, the overhang on the gable end looks pretty good to my eye, the one on the shed roof doesn't appeal to me quite as much. Is there a compelling reason to have or not have an overhang on either or neither? Also what is customary for trim under an overhang? Is siding right up to the overhang usual or does a 1x6 (or whatever) trim board there look better?
Thanks again for the input thus far and TIA for further comments,
Karen
With regard to the underside of the overhang, as well as the size of the overhang, I would suspect that you would want something to match the existing house. BTW the underside is called the soffit (or is it sofitt?).
Do it right, or do it twice.
two basic ways to frame a rake overhang.. eihter will work, one way is more structurally strong that the other..
here's a couple pics of cadioli framing a rake with cantilever lookouts.. this overhang is 12".. notice the subfascia for the rake.. the trim rake board will get nailed to that..
the 2d way is the "ladder" which is usually strong enough if it is well fit and tightly nailed .. and if the plywood is strong enough not to sag over the years.. most traditional homes built with board roofs used a ladder type ( if they had boxed rakes ).. because they relied on the board roof sheathing to act as the cantilever..
osb is more suspect in regards to long term sag than properly oriented plywood.. especially if the framer is using 5/8" ply ( 5/8 osb is not as sag resistent as 5/8 ply.. but it may be superior to 1/2 ply )
the structural engr. sounds like he just doesn't want to wind up in court as a reward for his nominal fee to inspect your work..
i'd make some discrete inquiries as to why you got M as your inspector instead of D.. or was it vice versa ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
When you say overhang, I am assuming you mean the soffit at the bottom of the rafter tails, versus the gable end overhang (which is what Mike Smith posted of). If so, then I have to ask is the siding brick or other (i.e., wood lap, vinyl, FC, etc.)? If it's brick, then it will have a foot or so long 2x4 extending vertically from the rafter to a 1x that's slightly below the plancher cut of the rafter.
On the other hand, if you have *siding*, then you will either have horizontal 2x4's running from rafter tail to wall, or like we do, a 2x2 nailed to the wall level with the bottom of the subfascia (for aluminum/vinyl soffit).
In either case, a 2x4 or 2x6 subfascia with a 1x finish fascia is normal for wood cornice/soffit.
Please post pics again, if possible, so that we all may define exactly what you're referring to.Quality before Quantity
Karen,
I wish I knew how to respond to you at this point...but I really don't know what to say. All I can offer you is my personal experience... I know guys who are licensed contractors who can't cut a stair stringer or read plans and I know building inspectors who's knowledge of modern building practices is completely outdated or worse, never really existed to any degree beyond the knowledge a decent "handyman" might have. As far as rough framing goes, yours is pretty rough. As Piffen already stated, it probably won't fall down on you, but and this is a big but... it's not what you paid for. You paid for a job to be done in a professional manner with a level of craftsmanship that should meet some standard. I don't mean to say this to be rude so if I come across as crass please pardon me...just because you or your building inspector don't know any better doesn't make it right.
I strongly suggest that you talk to your builder and at least express your concern to him. If he knows that he can get away with shoddy framing, what else will he try to get away with? Let him know now that you are not ignorant to what are acceptable and unacceptable building practices. Do it before things get worse from here. Even if you are satisfied with your inspector's take on the situation.
None of us here have anything to gain by trashing this guy's work. We are only trying to help you. You have paid for a quality product...don't settle for less just to avoid "making waves". Your project is in a relatively early stage...ensure it will go smoothly from here on out. It's YOUR house. Your addition will be there long after this contractor is gone.
A collar tie will hold it in place.
Thanks all. I have lurked here before and knew if something like this came up I'd get some good input.
I will call GC and leave a message today and call the building inspector (with whom I've already spoken to about another matter) first thing Monday morning.
I wonder what else I'm *not* seeing in this framing job... I can post more pics if someone can tell me what views would be helpful. I don't want to attach a dozen useless pictures to this thread...
Karen
I'm with the other guys in thinking this is pretty poor work.
Adding a 3rd LVL doesn't sound like a bad solution, but would be difficult.
My thought would be to have your architect/engineer come up with a hanger to attach the rafters to the LVLs. That would probably require pulling up the top row of plywood so they could be installed. But it would be easier than supporting all the rafters and adding an LVL, or removing the roof and re-cutting the rafters.
Good luck wth it, and please let us know how it turns out............Youth would be an ideal state if it came a little later in life. [Herbert Henry Asquith]
The work in the photos is totally unacceptable. I would not pay another cent until he completely tears off the roof and starts over. Are the shims consistant thickness along the ridge or do the thicknesses change. There are many mistakes that could cause the problem. The whole addition could be out of square or the ridge could be out of level or off center. I would seem simple enough to match the existing plates and ridge. Are the ceiling heights the same in the new addition?
The framer never listened in his high school geometry class or dropped out. In other words he calculated the rafter lengths wrong. I am so sorry you have to deal with this but I couldn't leave something like that. Two guys and a day and your sheathing could be removed. Another day and the rafters could be removed. I would not progress until this is fixed. The rafters may be salvagable if the ridge drops a little. The OSB is also salvagable. Don't let this guy get away with this. He needs to learn some hard lessons.