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Veneer brick

CloudHidden | Posted in Construction Techniques on May 6, 2006 10:00am

For veneer brick on a precast slab wall, what’s a good rate to budget? Can’t think of any complexity…good access, flat walls, thin brick, nothing structural. Got about 240′ of walls 10′ high. Just trying to give the design client a ballpark number to chew on to see if it’s a possibility for him.

Edit: I’m talking about thin brick…1/2″ thick weighing only 1# each. They estimate an 80# bag of mortar for each 50 sf. No separate brick ledge, etc.


Edited 5/6/2006 3:17 pm ET by CloudHidden

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  1. User avater
    IMERC | May 06, 2006 10:59pm | #1

    Brick MasonryVeneers, standard brick, 4" T, with wall ties

    __________________________________________________________________________

    Description Craft@Hrs Unit Material Labor Equipment Total

    use this header for the columns

    __________________________________________________________________________

    4" T, with wall ties; no scaffolding included

    Common, 8" x 2-2/3" x 4", Installation

    Common, 8" x 2-2/3" x 4", [email protected] SF 2.50 4.86 0.15 7.51

    Common, 8" x 2-2/3" x 4", [email protected] SF 3.03 5.07 0.20 8.30

    Veneers, standard brick, 4" T, with wall ties

    __________________________________________________________________________

    Description Craft@Hrs Unit Material Labor Equipment Total

    __________________________________________________________________________

    Standard face, 8" x 2-2/3" x 4", Installation

    Standard face, 8" x 2-2/3" x 4", [email protected] SF 3.40 5.20 0.16 8.76

    Standard face, 8" x 2-2/3" x 4", [email protected] SF 4.13 5.40 0.22 9.75

    Veneers, standard brick, 4" T, with wall ties

    __________________________________________________________________________

    Description Craft@Hrs Unit Material Labor Equipment Total

    __________________________________________________________________________

    Glazed, 8" x 2-2/3" x 4", Installation

    Glazed, 8" x 2-2/3" x 4", [email protected] SF 7.73 5.43 0.17 13.33

    Glazed, 8" x 2-2/3" x 4", [email protected] SF 9.36 5.65 0.23 15.25

    Veneer brick

    __________________________________________________________________________

    Description Craft@Hrs Unit Material Labor Equipment Total

    __________________________________________________________________________

    Other brick types/sizes

    8" x 4" x 4", Installation

    8" x 4" x 4", [email protected] SF 2.64 3.63 0.11 6.38

    8" x 4" x 4", [email protected] SF 3.21 3.76 0.15 7.12

    8" x 3-1/5" x 4", Installation

    8" x 3-1/5" x 4", [email protected] SF 3.92 4.32 0.13 8.37

    8" x 3-1/5" x 4", [email protected] SF 4.74 4.48 0.18 9.40

    12" x 4" x 6", Installation

    12" x 4" x 6", [email protected] SF 4.15 2.60 0.08 6.83

    12" x 4" x 6", [email protected] SF 5.03 2.70 0.11 7.84

    12" x 2-2/3" x 4", Installation

    12" x 2-2/3" x 4", [email protected] SF 3.38 3.52 0.11 7.01

    12" x 2-2/3" x 4", [email protected] SF 4.09 3.65 0.15 7.89

    12" x 3-1/5" x 4", Installation

    12" x 3-1/5" x 4", [email protected] SF 2.64 3.06 0.10 5.80

    12" x 3-1/5" x 4", [email protected] SF 3.20 3.17 0.13 6.50

    12" x 2" x 4", Installation

    12" x 2" x 4", [email protected] SF 4.57 4.57 0.14 9.28

    12" x 2" x 4", [email protected] SF 5.54 4.76 0.19 10.49

    12" x 2-2/3" x 6", Installation

    12" x 2-2/3" x 6", [email protected] SF 3.93 3.63 0.11 7.67

    12" x 2-2/3" x 6", [email protected] SF 4.73 3.76 0.15 8.64

    12" x 4" x 4", Installation

    12" x 4" x 4", [email protected] SF 3.08 2.54 0.08 5.70

    12" x 4" x 4", [email protected] SF 3.71 2.65 0.11 6.47

    Demolish brick wall with air tools

    __________________________________________________________________________

    Description Craft@Hrs Unit Material Labor Equipment Total

    __________________________________________________________________________

    Walls

    With air tools

    8" T, Demolition

    8" T, [email protected] SF -- 2.28 0.27 2.55

    8" T, [email protected] SF -- 3.05 0.36 3.41

    12" T, Demolition

    12" T, [email protected] SF -- 3.26 0.39 3.65

    12" T, [email protected] SF -- 4.34 0.53 4.87

    16" T, Demolition

    16" T, [email protected] SF -- 4.24 0.51 4.75

    16" T, [email protected] SF -- 5.64 0.68 6.32

    24" T, Demolition

    24" T, [email protected] SF -- 4.98 0.60 5.58

    24" T, [email protected] SF -- 6.65 0.80 7.45

    Common brick walls

    __________________________________________________________________________

    Description Craft@Hrs Unit Material Labor Equipment Total

    __________________________________________________________________________

    With common brick; no scaffolding included

    8" T (13.50 Brick/SF), Installation

    8" T (13.50 Brick/SF), [email protected] SF 4.91 9.39 0.38 14.68

    8" T (13.50 Brick/SF), [email protected] SF 5.95 9.80 0.51 16.25

    12" T (20.25 Brick/SF), Installation

    12" T (20.25 Brick/SF), [email protected] SF 7.42 12.70 0.52 20.63

    12" T (20.25 Brick/SF), [email protected] SF 8.98 13.30 0.69 22.96

    16" T (27.00 Brick/SF), Installation

    16" T (27.00 Brick/SF), [email protected] SF 9.91 16.20 0.66 26.77

    16" T (27.00 Brick/SF), [email protected] SF 12.04 16.90 0.87 29.80

    24" T (40.50 Brick/SF), Installation

    24" T (40.50 Brick/SF), [email protected] SF 14.79 22.30 0.90 37.99

    24" T (40.50 Brick/SF), [email protected] SF 17.95 23.30 1.20 42.45

    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming

    WOW!!! What a Ride!

    Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

    1. User avater
      CloudHidden | May 06, 2006 11:25pm | #2

      This isn't standard brick with wall ties. It's 1/2" thick and mortar's to the concrete wall in the way that cultured stone mortars to the wall. They're 1/6 the weight of regular brick. You'd mortar the back, kinda like thin-setting tile, and then grout the gaps, kinda like when repointing. Should have different economics from regular brick, be/c the material's thinner and lighter, and the installation method if different and most likely faster.

      1. User avater
        IMERC | May 06, 2006 11:39pm | #3

        oops...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

        WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->

        Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

      2. butch | May 06, 2006 11:58pm | #4

        I checked into this also and the thin brick is more expensivethan the full brick. Is that what you've found also or have youpriced it yet?I think that the thin brick would be more labor intensive versus thefull brick, but I really don't know if that would be true so I'll bewaiting to see what kinda of response you get.

        1. User avater
          CloudHidden | May 07, 2006 12:01am | #5

          More expensive? Wow, I'm surprised. More labor intensive? Surprised there too. I'd love an expansion on that if anyone has one, be/c it's counterintuitive to me.

          1. blue_eyed_devil | May 07, 2006 04:36pm | #6

            Cloud, I'd say the thin brick was more money because of the economics of scale. I only know of one company in Metro Detroit that advertises for this. The product itself is special order, or a specialty item.

            If brick was going to be 10k, I'd be budgeting double for that.

            I think it would be more labor intensive from the installers point of view. How fast can you stick them up and keep them where they need to be to do  good job? How do you treat the brick joints and make them look real and look good?

            The brickies lay brick very, very fast. There isn't anyway they could stick the thin bricks onto thinset as fast as they butter and lay a full brick. The laborers who stock the brick work very cheap. I'd be very surprised to find that thin bricks were cheaper.

            The last test to determine cheaper is the production builders. If thin brick was cheaper, every builder around here would be using it. They leave no stone unturned in their search for economy.

            blue 

          2. chrispy | May 10, 2006 05:41pm | #7

            You might take a look at this product.  I am not sure of how it fastens but it seems like it might work for you.  It is a brick veneer panel.  I am considering it for a remodel project I am bidding on. 

             

             

             

            http://www.panbrick.com/info.html

          3. WNYguy | May 12, 2006 01:32am | #8

            I used a thin brick product last year, and concur that it is more expensive, per unit, than brick and takes more time to install.  It has to be spaced like tile for uniform "grout" lines, then "pointed" as you say with mortar as a second step.

            Also, I had to special order the product, and the shipping cost was substantial.  I was in a rush, and ordered it sight unseen, except for the website photos and descriptions.   I was horrified to find that it wasn't true brick at all, but rather a dyed portland concrete product.

            I ended up sawing real antique brick to half-inch thickness to use in the most visible location.  So much for the rush job.

            Allen

          4. User avater
            CloudHidden | May 12, 2006 02:33am | #9

            Nothing beats experience. Thanks.

          5. dedubya | May 12, 2006 04:11pm | #12

            cloudhidden try to steer them in another direction. Ive installed the thin veneer

            you are talking about -like to have lost my religeon on that one-

            I seriosly underbid that job I priced it at regular brick- took forever- eldorado stone

            now offers the stuff though, not many styles but they  make a good product.

            the problem I had with it was it wondered around on the wall so much after I

            installed it . I think i would price it as glaszed cmu sized wall tile that use

             to be expensive to install.  DW

          6. Lansdown | May 12, 2006 07:14am | #10

            What material did you use to adhere it to the wall. Exterior grade thinset?

          7. WNYguy | May 12, 2006 03:31pm | #11

            TGNY:

            Yes, exterior grade thinset.  Pointed with lime mortar.  This project was actually a chimney, not a wall.  It replicated the original 1830s chimney that had been removed in the 1940s. 

            The thin brick allowed me to frame it in wood, then attach cement board and apply the bricks ... AND leave enough interior clearance for the double-walled SS flue, while exactly replicating the original chimney footprint.

            The product is Robinson Brick Company's "Thinbrick."  As mentioned, this is not a true clay brick at all, but a dyed portland concrete product.  The Robinson website implied that it was real brick, it looked good on screen, and the height/length dimensions were nearly identical to the chimney's original bricks.   I was very disappointed when the product arrived, and ended up sawing many of my own "thin bricks" from antique originals.

            The installation has survived one upstate winter, and so far, so good.

            View Image

            -Allen

             

          8. peteshlagor | May 12, 2006 04:51pm | #13

            Robinson's is just down the street from me.  I'm considering a chimney redo also.  The last time I stopped in their showroom, the thin brick I saw was NOT a concrete product.  It was more of a slice of the real brick. 

            Since I'm considering a stone, I didn't pay attention.  But I'll run back and recheck it out.

             

          9. WNYguy | May 12, 2006 09:19pm | #14

            Interesting.  The ones I received looked pretty convincing on the website, and from a distance, but a close look at the reverse side reveals the cement-and-aggregate material, as well as the uniformly-dyed appearance.

            Allen

          10. Lansdown | May 12, 2006 10:12pm | #15

            Thanks for the info and the pics. I want to clad a foundation wall, about 2' high with more or less the same procedure. Any thoughts or advice?

          11. WNYguy | May 13, 2006 04:18am | #17

            It pretty much goes like tilework.  Your concrete foundation is probably rougher and more irregular than a typical tile substrate, so you'll likely need to butter the backs of the "bricks" in addition to troweling the thinset onto the foundation. 

            I suppose you could use those little plastic spacers, but I used narrow strips of wood to keep the horizontal joints straight, level and consistent ... and to hold the thinbricks in place until the thinset set up.   But don't wait too long if you use wood ... that thinset really sticks to it. 

            Use a standard fine sand brick mortar mix if you like that gray portland look.  Tool the joint as you would a regular brick installation.  I used lime mortar because I was trying to replicate an 1830s chimney ... an acid wash exposes the sand to give it a more historic, weathered look.  The color of the sand, in that case, gives the mortar its basic color.

            Good luck!

            Allen

             

          12. Lansdown | May 13, 2006 04:36am | #18

            Thanks again.I'll be putting this below an already installed cedar sided wall. Would you work from the top down or set a datum and work up. I might use some kind of stone, therefore the profile would stick out from the plane of the siding requiring some sort of cap flashing on top of the stone.

          13. WNYguy | May 13, 2006 05:03am | #19

            I'd work from bottom up.   Probably do the corners first, then use a mason's string, stretched from corner to corner,  to align the courses.  

            I'm not a fan of foundations that are proud of the wall above; never looks right to me.  But I'm sure there are examples that work OK, aesthetically.

            Allen

          14. User avater
            CloudHidden | May 15, 2006 07:53pm | #20

            I just got a price sheet from Thin Brick by Owensboro. Their material cost is $2/sf for the brick and mortar. And it's actual kiln-fired clay brick, not a concrete-based imitation.This info doesn't match that of some of the posts here, and I'm gonna have to resolve the differences...

          15. User avater
            CloudHidden | May 20, 2006 06:18am | #21

            Company just replied with an estimate of 7 manhours per 100 sf. Let's say that's $50/hour labor. Then we have $2/sf for material, maybe .5/sf for shipping, and $3.50/sf for labor. That puts us at $6/sf.Which of these seems wrong when comparing to expectations?

          16. butch | May 20, 2006 12:48pm | #22

            bump

  2. timkline | May 12, 2006 10:32pm | #16

    $12 - $13  square foot.

     

    carpenter in transition

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