I consider myself the king of weekend warriors and despite all of the posts saying not to try veneer coat plaster, I did. I have been fascinate by blueboard and plaster for years and I have mastered the old tape a mud finishing, but still had and urge to try veneer coat. I finally did it, two large rooms in may basement, 60 boards in total. I read everything I could find on plastering and then one early Friday morning I got started all by myself. After the first wall, I thought well I need to get the feel of it. After the second wall, I started to worry. On the third wall, after thinking I made a real big mistake by trying this, I finally started to get the hang of it, but damn did my hand hurt when I was done. This is not easy work and I can see where a helper can really come in handy, particularly on the ceilings.
After three walls I quit for the day and did some more reading and figured out a few things that I was doing wrong. I Did some more wall each day and finally did the ceiling the following weekend in a total of eight mixes. Again working by myself. I learned real quick to mix a little less than I think I can apply before it sets and to cut sharp lines where each mix stops. This stuff is not easy to feather.
All and all, the job came out well, except for the first two walls. I now have a new found respect for the art of plastering and yes it is very hard to learn. To anyone who is thinking about trying veneer coat plaster and has a tough time doing “tape and spackle” forget it! There is an art to getting the mix right, an art to applying it, an art to doing corners, and an art to knowing when to bail out on a mix and get the wall polished.
I just wanted to share this little bit with everyone, because I did not see any follows on any threads from the people who enquiring.
I do have a question as well. I want to recoat the first three wall, one I can live with as is, the other two I can’t. My first thought it the smooth all three walls with premix and do a little spot sanding. I tried is on part of one well and it came out fine. My second thought is to re skim the walls. I used USG Diamond Finish plaster initially. Can I skim over this material again with Diamond Finish and if so do I have to wet the original coat? Or do I need to apply a plaster weld first?
Replies
You need some type of bonding agent. Around here the use is Acryl60, which is mixed into the water before mixing into the plaster. About 1 to 1 or 1 to 2 is the proportion.
However, skim coat over blueboard isn't done here, so we don't get the Diamond Veneer. I imagine Acryl60 is still ok, but talk to the supplier and check what the USG web site says.
Thanks for the post. I've tried a bit (very little) of traditional plaster. You know, three coats on lath. I found this easier than drywall mudding, except for schlepping the pails! How do you think the veneer compares to that?
My guess is that veneer compares pretty much like doing the finish coat of a three coat job. What I don't know is what the setting time is like for veneer vs finish. And there are many types of finish coats. Ours are the basic steel trowel finish.But keep in mind that Yuri is at my house right now skimming out what I could not do. I can't do a decent finish coat on anything larger than a small hole, something completly covered by my trowel.In other words, I suck at it.
Good description of how hard it is and how much it hurts. The crew that did my walls were all tough guys. They had the guy who hung the board work the trowel one day be/c some of the crew was in jail or beat up or something. By the end of the day he was trying to quit be/c his shoulder hurt so bad from the motion. They were yelling at him that the plaster was setting up and to get back at it. He was hurting so bad there were tears squeezing out of his eyes. I felt bad for him, but the others were laughing their azzes off...they'd been there before. I know I couldn't do it. Good on you for trying.
Kind of in the same boat - done it before, and not a real strong interest to make plastering my day job. Now, from what I recollect, you can put the diamond on top of itself, but it sticks in my head that there's a limit on the thickness. To answer that I'm almost sure that info is written on the bag somewhere, so you might check there.
Beyond that, lets assume you can go direct on top, if you've figured out what to do, then I dont think leveling the previous coat is really an issue. We're talking small lines here, yes? You should be able to trowel #2 on and make that one smooth.
In your reading, if you haven't come across Plastering Skills, that one is pretty old, but it was, and may still be, a bible of sorts to the trade.
I got to hand it to you, trying to do that solo, man. I never sweat or hurt so much on interior work and that was with two guys going. You certainly had your work cut out for you. I mixed and cleaned tools, he troweled, right as that coat was setting, he scraped his stuff out and I polished. (Thinking back, the only reason we did it like that is I couldn't get the first coat on very smooth, and he couldn't polish as well. Odd. Anyway. ) He'd get set for another bucket and I had it ready. We kept 2 sets of tools so the ones in his paw were always clean. Stuff starts getting sticky and time to get it off is pretty short. We used an angle grinder and a wire wheel on the paddle a couple of times. There was a real timing that had to be maintained, and we were mixing small quantities, like 5 gal buckets at a time.
"Sometimes when I consider what tremendous consequences come from little things, I am tempted to think -- there are no little things" - Bruce Barton
Plastering Skills was put out by USG and is updated and still used by the unions for the apprentices. I have a copy from the 50's.
Many many years ago when I was first starting out in the trades I had the same fascination about plastering as you present. I decided to learn the trade along with my carpentry and house repair. I was living in NYC at the time where plastering in the old brownstones is very common and sought after. I hooked up with an old gentleman who taught me how to lath, bond, mix, spatter, dash, guage, slake the lime, flatwork, feathering, the art of laying in grounds with plaster "dots", etc etc.
There are so many different types of plaster finishes but the most common that people want is the white smooth. He also taught me cornice work and the ornamental stuff I picked up while doing some jobs through The Old House Journal that originated out of the Brooklyn neighborhood where I lived, and was still there.
Later I worked for a large painting studio that did murals, mural restorations, and plaster restorations in the large buildings in and around NYC. Radio City, The Morosco Theater, The Palace Theater, St Barts, and The Met Museum of Art to name a few. We did many different finishes, gold leaf, glazes etc This same company has a plaster casting shop on the West Side in Manhatten where I worked for about a year working on sculptings and castings that were sent all over the world to great houses and buildings of state. Many castings I would do in the shop and then go to the site to install and help glaze to finish. soup to nuts. I ran several jobs for them. By then I was in the International Brotherhood of Allied Craftworkers Union #5 as a journeyman and special finisher.
Then one day, I gave it up and I don't regret it. It was waaaaaaay too hard on the bod. You heft hawk after hawk after hawk load of heavy mud while doing a cieling 50' in the air with your neck bent back and your trowel arm pushing and stroking, day in day out, for weeks and months at a time. That's how you keep the chiropractor busy.
I'm still a carpenter, and always will be. The plastering I will do but only small repairs, skimwork, and I still like to repair and copy old cornice work, and people are delighted when they find out that I can do that.
I guess the reason I tell you all of this is that plastering is a real skill and parts of it real art...yes. It is also brutal labor, and no, you shouldn't tackle large jobs alone like that. You can fast get into trouble if you don't take it slow and a little at a time at first. There are many steps to it. If you like doing it though...by all means. But I would keep it as a hobby. I did it, and don't regret it, but I would never go back to it.
I'm back to rotted sills, installing kitchens, hanging doors, shopwork, trimwork and NPR.
Life goes on.
Hey, send us some picts one day.
Thanks for all of the feedback. Labor intensive is an understatement. I did this work when is was still cool out, mid 50s during the day, windows open and I did sweet my but off and my hand hurt for a good two weeks from working the trowel. I must say though I am going to do some more. Also, I live about an hour north of New York City and if any professional plasters need an assistant on a weekend, please let me know, I'll work all day for free and bring coffee and donuts. I have no plans of doing this for a living, but I do want to learn to do it better and hope to teach it to my kids some day.
I have a two-story entry foyer that looks like hell because the previous homeowner papered over un-primed drywall. After removing the paper, the walls look bad and the tape job was not great. I did veneer one wall of regular drywall using plaster weld. The plaster does work different over plaster weld vs. blue board, so I am a little concerned about the foyer as it’s a lot of wall area to cover, but I assume I'll get the hang of it. If anyone has any advice, I’ll take it. I have considered going over the existing drywall with 3/8 blue board or taking down the existing drywall and hanging ½ blue board. But at the end of the day, skimming the existing wall is the least messy.
With respect to the three walls that I want to re-skim, I think I am going to take the easy way out and touch up with ready mix mud. As a side note, aside from the way the skim coat looks, I love the hardness of the wall. I have a 2-years old who plays in the basement and runs his bike and trucks into the walls all the time. So far he has yet to leave a dent.
-Jamie
I do have a question as well. I want to recoat the first three wall, one I can live with as is, the other two I can’t. My first thought it the smooth all three walls with premix and do a little spot sanding. I tried is on part of one well and it came out fine. My second thought is to re skim the walls. I used USG Diamond Finish plaster initially. Can I skim over this material again with Diamond Finish and if so do I have to wet the original coat? Or do I need to apply a plaster weld first?
Use joint compound and get done with it.
Diamond finish over Diamond finish don't work well.
Vinny the roofer.
I just did my whole downstairs a few weks ago.
3 coat on old brickwalls. I used 30 bags of top coat plaster and 2 tons of sand to float the walls.
afoter 2 weeks of that i was in bits. it turned out well though.
i'll post some pics a bit later
Jamie,
I received a request to reply to your post, and so I am replying. First, let me introduce myself, then I'll get to your question.
I have been plastering for 23 years now. I originally was taught the trade in Brooklyn Heights, New York. I learned three coat plastering in the 80's over metal lath, and specialize now in plaster repair. I now live in the midwest and run a plaster repair business, as well as write, speak and train people from around the world about the fine art of plastering (I have produced 14 DVD programs now on different types of plaster work). Though I do not presently write for Fine Homebuilding magazine, I am interested in helping those on this link understand and learn how to work with plaster. Perhaps in the future I will work more with this magazine. I guess it depends on the interest shown in this topic - plaster!
You are not alone in the frustration that many feel about working with this material. Not only have instructions and 'how to' information been lacking, but it's very difficult for people to get their hands on the materials that are used to do the work properly. I am out to change that, but it's been a long road and all up hill. But I think things will be improving in this regard soon.
To answer your question: It is possible to improve the look of the walls you did at the start of your project. Here are some tips:
#1: First, use a pump sprayer and fog down the walls you plan on re-doing. It is important to realize from the start that moisture is your best friend - and a dry surface your worst enemy when it comes to plastering.
#2: Once the wall is fogged down, mix up your base coat mix. Stick to a 5 gallon bucket so that the mix doesn't set up on you too quickly. Use cold water and mixing in a little (2 cups or so) latex bonder will help slow the batch down so you have more time to work with it. It will also make the base coat smoother to apply.
#3: Apply a thin coat of base over the walls you want to re-do. Allow this to set up hard. Now here is an important point: Again, moisture is your best friend here. You want to smooth coat right away after the base has set. Don't wait till the next day or even several hours later. Apply a thin coat of smooth coat over the wall, then fall back and apply another thin coat right over that - both from the same batch of smooth coat.
#4: Once the smooth coat is applied, begin water troweling as it begins to stiffen. I like using a mist/spray bottle for doing this, instead of a water brush - more controlled and you don't over water the areas. Try to get the surface smooth as you can the first time over.
#5: After this is done, wait and then do your final troweling using a felt mop to get the surface completely smooth. With some finishes you can use the felt mop again to make sure all trowel marks are out of the surface. The bag will usually say if a mop can be used at the end. Others simply want you to polish it down with the trowel and leave as is.
Plastering is a labor intensive job no matter which way you cut it. However, there are many tricks and tips that I can help you with along the way. I have helped painters, drywall finishes and hangers all learn this trade - both on how to do the work, and how to make $100K per year doing plaster repair. I was turned on to doing repairs some years back by an old plasterer who was literally a millionaire and had made it all from doing repairs up in Wisconsin. Plastering truly is an 'art' - and it's great to learn it if at all possible.
Take care, and 'Plaster On!'
Your friend,
Robin Raymer/ The Plaster Man
P.S. If anyone has a question, I'd be happy to help out. I am quite busy right now, but I will check in from time to time to try and reply to the postings. I too had to learn the hard way, and I almost gave up I got so sore...! But don't despair, it can be learned!
Thanks for your encouragement, Plaster Man. I'm really interested in learning how to do this. How can I attend one of your workshops? I'm in Wisconsin myself. I mostly want to work on my own house but would like to work with others to learn. I have found very little written on the subject.
Hello,
I'm glad the information helped. One thing that I really want to avoid on this or any other discussion forum is 'tooting my own horn'. It's a fine line between answering questions and promoting my own information products and what I do.
I would encourage you to let Fine Homebuilding magazine know that you are interested in the topic of plastering. I think that would be the best move at this time, since this is their site and also I believe the topic of plastering is a popular one and there is much I could help readers with. The same holds true for workshops and training I do. Instead of providing information on this area and it be looked upon as an 'advertisement', I would rather have the magazine contact me about what is proper in giving out information on what I have available. I have a feeling this magazine is very interested in getting information out on plastering, and I only see good things coming from it. So your contacting them about this will help in a big way.
Your friend,
The Plaster Man/ Robin Raymer
I have a background in the magazine business. (I'm a writer and have used carpentry as my on/off source of income.) If you think you have a good idea for an article, the usual protocol is for writers to submit a query letter to the magazine. I believe the editors of FHB are trying to encourage connections between readers in these forums.
Plaster Man,
Thank you very much for taking the time and responding. I absolutely love the way the plaster walls look and the durability is great. I want to skim my entire house as I renovate each room, but the labor is hard and in many instances I will be going over regular drywall using a plaster weld.
Based on you suggestions regarding the re-skim of my existing plaster, I am going to give it a shot. I also assume that I can mix the latex bonder when I am doing the skim coat over regular drywall?
Your recommendation of using a pump sprayer is a good one. I started with a bucket of water and a brush like I saw people on TV using then went to a hand spray bottle, but once my finger got tired, I had the brain storm of using a pump sprayer. Once I started using the pump sprayer I was able to get a real nice finish.
I did not try using a felt mop however. Occasionally I would get some blistering as the plaster hardened (I assumed as a result of over working it) and discovered if I worked it with a wet paint brush I was able to remove the blister and then as it hardened polish it with my trowel.
Last comment/question. I have been using USG Diamond Finish plaster, thus no true base coat over the blue board. I assume I will use the USG Imperial base and then either the Diamond or Imperial finish over that. Do you recommend a true base coat for skiming over conventional drywall?
Thanks a million and I will repost my experiences occasionally for those who are interested.
Regards,
Jamie
Jamie,
I'm so glad the suggestions helped. As to drywall and going over it with base coat, let me offer these tips:
#1: You don't need to add bonder to the base coat in order for it to stick to drywall. Keep in mind the differences between plaster board and drywall: Drywall has a rather slick surface. This is designed to let compounds 'sit' and 'dry' on them. It absorbs moisture at a much slower rate than does plaster board, which has a highly absorbent paper. Plaster is a 'chemical' set more than a air drying process. Plaster is rock that is crushed into a powder. When added with water on the jobsite it is going to go back to rock - sooner or later. Using cold, clean water, as well as adding a latex bonder, can give you more time with the mix.
#2: Plaster can be used over both plaster board AND drywall. I have even used it over green board, but with that paper I usually WILL bond it first before applying the base coat.
#3: I do recommend you use a base coat instead of a finish plaster as the base. Imperial base is the hardest of the base coats on the market. There is also Diamond base coat and Kal-Kote base coat - made by USG and National Gypsum.
#4: One more tip on base coat: Always, always make sure you thoroughly clean the mixing paddle and buckets out after each mix. Plaster is much different than say portland cement or mixes that do not chemically set. The reason is this: Let's say you simply rinse down the left over base coat from the sides of the bucket into the next mix. The second mix will set at the same rate as the first. This is the reason many people find the batches getting super 'hot' - meaning they set up quicker and quicker. Rinsing out and using clean, cold water each time will give you the maximum amount of time that you can get.
#5: One more tip: Use WD-40 to coat the inside of barrels and buckets, as well as to coat your tools. It will also give you more time to work with the material, and will make the job of cleaning up much easier. If you're working alone and the base happens to set up on you, you'll find what's left over in the bucket will pop right out if you use WD-40 - and it has no adverse effects on the plaster.
#6: A felt mop is known as a 'blister brush' too. And it's a little bigger than a paint brush and very useful in getting those blisters out of the plaster when it comes to the final finishing of the smooth coat.
Any other questions, simply post them. I had a great typing teacher all 4 years of high school, so typing is my strength - next to plastering!
Your friend,
Plaster Man/ Robin Raymer