I’ve heard that in a few pockets of the country, Rhode Island for one, veneer plaster over blueboard is competitive with a gypboard job with mud and tape. But talk about veneer plaster here where I am, and you might as well be speaking farsi. I pay my rocker about $1 psf to hang, mud and tape, prime and do the first paint coat, with me buying materials. I am a half-day’s drive from the nearest known plastering epicenter. What is my chance of getting one of those plastering contractors to come here to do a 10,000 sf job for me, without breaking my budget? I will cover room and board for the crew, plus travel cost.
Edited 12/17/2002 8:00:12 PM ET by Gene Davis
Replies
Gene,
It really depends. I wouldn't do it, but then again, I don't need to. Others may not feel that way. Not sure where you're at, but drywall is going for about $1.20 to $1.30 a foot for everything you described, plus the hangersdrywaller supplying the board. Veneering starts at about $2.50. I don't see how it can be competitive at all with drywalling. Basically the same process is followed with hanging and taping, but then there is the material and labor of the plastering and the 30 to 40% increase of blueboard over drywall. You've got me on that one.
Don
Was I incorrect? Let's forget about my project for a second and consider the assumption. Is a veneer plaster job, as done in certain pockets of the country, not so competitive that one would consider swapping it for the drywall and mud job done in the same place? I've heard it is even used in starter home jobs, in places in CN, MA, and RI. But how can that be, if it is such a premium over gypboard? How long does it take, with the folks up on the stilts and the mud and trowels moving? It seems like my rockers take forever with the first mud, dry, sand, second, dry, sand, etcetera.
Gene:
Veneer costs about 2-2.5 times depending where you are for the reasons that Don outlined. There is no way you can pay the price of SR for a veneer job.
Tom
Gene,
I can't say you are incorrect, only that here(Detroit area) your prices would not work. Look at it this way. Blueboard is just drywall with a different paper with a suction suitable for plastering. The cost differential may very well be based in the demand issues. I don't know. But this is the real point, the blueboard is not hung any different the regular drywall. There are no shortcuts to taping and finishing the joints for a quality job. You basically have a completed drywall job before you start plastering. So added to the drywall job you have the added expense of the plaster and the labor with a usual added premium thrown in. In my opinion, there are a lot of advantages to plastering over drywall so I'm not surprised to see it in a starter home, or anywhere else. Take away the corian and premium cabinets, and you come up with the added expense of plastering. Why someone picks one over the other is anyones guess?
****Tom's post wasn't here when I started, but his 2 to 2.5 times is accurate for my area. Add architectural detailing like coves and molding, and the cost can explode.
Don
Edited 12/17/2002 10:31:12 PM ET by Don C.
Mike Smith has worked with guys who do it for $1/ft including materials. I also don't get how they can make a living, but I've always taken Mike at his word, and don't doubt it here. I'd love to see their economics, too.
If I had to do mine again, I'd have hired his guys, put them in a great hotel, fed them well, and still been way ahead on the $3 + materials + 1 1/2 hr travel/day + skipping out of the job before quite finishing that I paid. On the plus side, they caused a couple dozen pot plants to grow behind the house.
Seriously, my crew did a great quality job from what visitors have told me, but they were a hard crew to be around. Mike's guys woulda been well worth the lesser expense for me.
I don't doubt Mike either. I've seen a lot of stranger things then people working at a loss.
I don't know anyone who 3 coats anymore on interiors. Even on expanded metal it's two coats.
Don
>I don't know anyone who 3 coats anymore on interiors. Even on expanded metal it's two coats.
We did 3 coat on metal lathe on the curved walls here, including a 37' tall 8'R stairwell. That was fun...
Now that does sound like fun! Just curious, but did you do it for $1.40 a foot? I'm amazed at some of the prices I'm reading here.
Don
Like I said, for $1.40, I woulda brought Mike's guys down here, and then taken one of them Carribean vacations with the savings. Nah, I paid 3 plus materials. Please don't do the math, cause I don't wanna cry again.
I'm thinking along the same lines as you. If these guys will travel, I'll sub them out and keep em working for a long, long time while I pretty much retire.
Don
gene , at the top of the boom ( what was that , 6 months ago ? ).. plasterers were asking $1.50 including cathedral ceilings.. all labor , material, smooth or sand finish ceilings, certificates of insurance for WC, and the boss making a damn good living...
if you can get it rocked, my plasterer will fly out and do it for you for a premium.. you put him and his crew up...he's traveled to Long Island for an architect friend of mine..where are you ?
and , it's fast & clean.. they put down felt paper on the floor and throw it in the dumpster when they're doneMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
i can call 3 palsterers in my speed dial... and all will be under $1.50, fully insured.. making a better living than meMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I don't know, but I don't see that as a damn good living. Sand or smooth at the same price doesn't make much sense to me either. That would be akin to drywallers charging the same for a level 2 or level 5 finish. Unfortunately drywallersplasterers (not the same as a plasterer, but handy with a trowel folk) are like many painters, buying rather then selling jobs. Just my opinion.
Don
don't see what as a good living ? since i didn't mention a figure, what did you have in mind ?
we're doing an addition / remodel right now... Gene just called me with his quote.. he and i measured the job last week... they'll do a split delivery with the boom .. 2d floor.. (77) 8' then he'll hang the ceiling so i can blow the attic with 24" of cellulose...
when that's done.. the supply company will come back with 74 (8') for the 1st floor, then gene will hang and plaster everything..
4832 sf @ $1.40 = $6275....
the ceilings will be sand finish except the baths.. smooth ceilings..Gene has been doing my work since he took over the company from his Dad.. his Dad did most of mine since I switched to plaster in about 1980....Gene does about 90 % of my plaster
I've also had 1 bum company.. who worked hot and cold.. and two other excellent companies since 1980.. from baths to whole houses to ceiling repairs.. every job i get a quote on.. if it's in my budget , that's the price.. if it's not , I'll shop it to some of the others to check & see .....
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Sorry Mike but I thought you had said $1.50 a foot, and I don't see your quoted price as a good living. Some dywallers around here can get that per square foot. $1.40 per foot for plastering wouldn't cover materials, wages, insurances and misc. expenses let alone a profit. Heck, at that price employee health insurance would definetely have to take a hike, and I wouldn't do that.
Don
Edited 12/18/2002 5:17:45 PM ET by Don C.
Don.. Carps here are making about $20 as legitimate employees..
so.. if all the GOOD plaster companies , with real employees, paying real WC rates, buying their product from two or three competitive yards with in-house boom delivery.. doing two-coat Diamond or Imperial...
typical job.. 8' flat ceilings , sand finish ceilings, smooth walls, material , labor & clean-up... $1.20 to $1.50...
high ceilings.. curved walls .. are extra.... me i just live right .. so sometimes they don't charge me extra.. kinda goes with the territory of basically using the same guy for 20 years...
my version of "making a good living" : Gene has two houses , including his new one, drives some nice vehicles .. goes skiiing .. takes a Carribbean vacation, and still is the best trowel guy in his company... the other plasterers i know.. who could handle 10,000 sf houses.. they are doing alright too, and since I've known them for 20 years or so.. i know they didn't just fall off the turnip truck
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Hey, I'm not arguing with your prices or the quality of the work you are getting. All I'm saying is that I'm surprised by the price, and I wouldn't and couldn't work at those prices. What are your drywallers getting?
Don
Don.. not sure but i'd guess $1.00 / sf - $1.20 / sf...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Wow Mike, you are getting your plastering done along with the added expense of the blueboard for .20 to .40 cents more a foot? Around here, the blueboard alone runs around .10 - .15 cents a sq. ft. over drywall. Also, if you get your base and toping at $13 a bag, that's an additional $26. Very liberally, lets say 2 bags, 2 coats at 200 sq. ft. That's an additional .13 cents a foot for the plaster. That's .23 to .28 cents a foot for the additional material alone. Needless to say Mike, I don't doubt you, but I don't understand it either. This doesn't even touch the added labor which is above and beyond a standard drywall job. The price you are quoting would make sense to me if that was for the plastering alone after the board was up and finished. But hey, if someone can pull it off, more power to em.
Don
PS---I wouldn't mind talking to these guys to see what there doing. Any chance you could email me some telephone numbers????
Edited 12/18/2002 6:26:01 PM ET by Don C.
Don... i don't know where you are..
do you ever go to "Walls & Ceilings " ?
i wonder what other parts of the country get for skim-coat....the price here goes with material cost.. ie: if board goes up, so does the price.. but mostly it goes with the market..even a year ago, when plasterers could name their price.. they were still topping out at about $1.60.. now it's a little softer.. plus work always gets a little slack around Christmas .. so i'm right back at $1.40...and glad to get itMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Not only do I go to W&C, I write for the magazine. I've been all over the country, and I've never seen these prices. What do you mean by skim coating? Do you think you could get me those telephone numbers?
Don
don.. you email me.. then i'll email you and we'll talk..
try me at home later.. xmfsmith AT cox.netMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
skim coat is blueboard base, usually meshtape joints, browncoat joints usually with the same mix ( either Diamond or Imperial ).. then finish coat with Diamond or Imperial....
they'll also do skim over old finish with a bonding agent.. and they've done commercial jobs for me on metal lath.. and they've done curved walls for me with browncoat & finish on metal lath..
they've worked in the Hamptons for my architect friend who paid them well and put them up.....now don't you go killin the golden goose , Don.
we've got a lot of union plasterers here in RI too, working for companies like H. Carr..
i get the feeling that drywall was just a flash in the pan.. '60's & '70's and then drywall was gone from residential or at least most of the guys i know stopped using it ...
and the oldtimers were glad to see skim coat come in from Connecticut with the buyers moving up from CT in the early '80's...
i've taped a lot of jobs myself.. and i've plastered a few small jobs just to see if i could.. seemed to me the labor was about the same.. except the skimcoat was all the same day.. the drywall and taping could take up to a week if the compound wouldn't dry.. so for drywall we use Durabond type setting compounds for everything except touchupMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Skim coat for base coat and brown coat for joints are new to me. This is an odd trade for terms. Float and floating can take you all over the place with what who means by what, where, when and why. Sure, I'll email you later. Got a Friday deadline, so I'd like to talk to someone before then and maybe turn them over to one of the businesscost guru writers.
Don
Gene,
Here in the Southwest, veneer plaster is about halfway between drywall and three-coat plaster in cost. The SF price varies wildly depending upon the skill of the plasterer and the size and complexity of the house.
An acrylic sealer (like OKON) over the plaster is a good idea, and should be factored into your cost. It's not terribly expensive, and easy to do with a rag -- much better result than spraying.
When making your cost comparison, don't forget about the cost of paint over the drywall. Around here, it's about $1.75 per square foot to cover. To me, that's so expensive, I'd rather do the veneer plaster, get a much better result, and be happier with the work.
Of course we can't always do that, but I do try to steer the job and the client that way because it is so much value for the dollar. The finished product really is beautiful if its done well.
DRC