Hi all:
I need to purchase windows for my home in Colorado. It was built in 1989 with very cheap wood windows. The home is in a nice, middle class neighborhood. I started my search saying I would never buy vinyl windows but the wood windows I like (Marvins) require removal of my drywall return as well as fully trimming out the window. I have sort of felt that losing the drywall return would diminish the contemporary look of the home (vaulted ceilings, etc.). I then started re-evaluating vinyl windows again that don’t require messing with the drywall return and found some decent choices however I am still wondering if wood windows would just look more classy, and vinyl windows, no matter how nice, will still look, well, cheap. I took another look at some Marvin wood-ultrex windows today (they are wood interior/fiberglass exterior) and the do look nice – but again require removing my drywall return and trimming out the window. Plus, I will have to stain/varnish the windows after the install. The price for the Marvins are about 16k vs. a little less than 12k for decent vinyl windows. Prices are parts and labor.
I know this is a hard question for everyone without seeing the home, but does the FH Building board here consider vinyl windows a poor substitute to quality wood windows? Do vinyl windows cheapen the look of a home? Are any quality home builders actually using vinyl windows in new construction??
Replies
what altitude are you at and what part of Colorado are you in???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'm outside of Denver - at 6000 feet.
I have vinyl replacements in my house. Some of them are over 20 years old. I like them, I installed them myself or oversaw the guys that put them in. That being said, either choice is a good one today.
Thanks everyone:
Can any builders out there comment if vinyl windows are installed in semi-custom new construction homes? Do buyers find them acceptable in terms of aesthetics? I always consider what a new buyer would think of any decision I make so I don't want the vinyl windows to be a "turn-off". I read on one site that said wood has the oooh and ahh factor, but vinyl is accepted.
I think the biggest detraction for me on going with wood windows is that I will have to stain,seal and varnish the new windows (it is not part of the contract nor will they do that part of it). This has got to be a pretty tedious job if one tackles it on their own, and probably expensive to hire-out. Plus, I'm not sure, but I would think it would have to be re-done every few years - especially for south facing windows.
In Syracuse NY where I framed for years, houses have gone to vinyl in applications up to the full custom Accepted now as good windows. Don't know about all parts of the country though.
Wow. Thanks. That is very reassuring.
I hope what I said about the drywall return made sense. Right now all I have is a pine sill and apron. With the vinyl windows I found, most of the drywall return will remain intact since the vinyl window depth from nailing fin to interior side is like 3 1/4". If I want to fancy them up a bit down the line, couldn't I have a trim carpenter put some molding inside the drywall return area and also some mitered casement pieces?
yep
consumers never seem to notice vynal anthing......
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
That's cause the ones that do, RUN the other way...
in a lot cases there isn't any other choice in ready made....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I think the biggest detraction for me on going with wood windows is that I will have to stain,seal and varnish the new windows (it is not part of the contract nor will they do that part of it). This has got to be a pretty tedious job if one tackles it on their own, and probably expensive to hire-out. Plus, I'm not sure, but I would think it would have to be re-done every few years - especially for south facing windows.
That's exactly the problem with wood windows, regular maintenance...painting or etc.
I've been very pleased with the http://www.milgard.com vinyl replacement windows I installed in this house a few years ago. Inexpensive but well made and easy to install.
look into the Milgards....
doing well at higer elevations than yurs...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Thanks IMERC:
Actually, the Milgard Tuscay is one of my favorites. Have you seen it?
yup....
they seem to do well even in Leadville....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I have run into two problems with vinyl windows. Worked on a house this summer where the HO installed vinyl. With all the windows shut the front door when shut would move the glass in the front window out and in as if it were a trampoline. This window was probably 4'x4'. The glass probably moved out and in 1/2" That didn't appeal to me.
Another house they had a vinyl replacement put in, on the east side of the house where the existing window had rotted away. The window was shaped like square with a triangle on top, however had 4 casements on the bottom ganged together, with a few windows on top ganged together. The whole window was probably 14 feet long and probably 12 feet high to the peak. It was 15grand cheaper than a wood window replacement. Same problem except the windows would move like a trampoline about 1" to 2" (inches!!!!) We remedied it by installing a steel beam running the length of the window, infront of the window on the inside so as it doesn't block anything (infront of vinyl trim) and attaching it with butterfly wall clips. A nightmare.
However they don't rot, I don't know if this puts you ahead or behind.
I've done several dozen window replacements using new construction vinyl windows with no problems.
I remove the old drywall returns when the old window is removed, and make new returns after the new window is installed. Tape, texture, and paint, and you're done.
On several jobs, I've added paint grade stool, aprons, and casings which can also look very contemporary.
The aesthetic gripe I have with vinyl windows (either replacement or new construction) is that the sashes are wide and reduce glazing area. I like fiberglass. The sash sizes are close to those of wood. More importantly, the thermal expansion characteristcs of fiberglass & glazing are nearly the same, making for a lot less stress on the glazing edge seals. That's especially relevant in places like Colorado, where cold nights and bright, sunny days create some pretty extreme thermal movement.
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I'm not seeing why using wood Marvins would mean losing your DW returns. What am I missing here?
Hi:
I was told that going with the Marvin clad or the Marvin Integrity (wood-ultrex) would mean they would have to remove the drywall return and corner bead. The windows would subsequently have to be fully trimmed out. Only the Marvin all-ultrex would not require removing my drywall return BUT they do not come in half rounds.
Biggest issue I have with vinyl is the lack of color choices. You either get white or beige.
We used them for part of our remodel, aluminum clad wood for the rest. The single hung vinyl I hate, especially compared to the double hung wood, but the sliders are perfectly OK.
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"Though I don't think" added Deep Thought "that you're going to like it."
Vinyl VS wood - it's mostly about esthetics:
Vinyl - only a few color choices and usually GBG (grill between glass), which look kinda fakey... Oh and I hope you like white - or tan... Looks a little bogus unless your house trim is white... or tan. Want to change colors on existing house? Not likely.
Wood - paint it (or stain) whatever color you want. Available in true divided light (TDL) or simulated divided lite (SDL). The grills look better. Here, some high end neighborhoods used to require TDL. Now, as far as I know, there are no TDL windows that will meet our energy code So it's SDL most of which have grills on both the outside and the inside. Or, go with no grills.
Performance: even relatively cheap vinyl windows seal pretty good. Cheap wood windows rarely do. Get into the higher end wood and they do pretty well. Maybe I'm living under a rock, but I don't know of any high $$$ vinyl windows... I believe that the medium $$ vinyls perform as good as anything else... depending on what brand you buy.
Operation: If properly installed, I'd guess that probably 3 out of a hundred vinyl windows don't operate smoothly. Wood - I'd guess that 5 out of a hundred do operate smoothly... :-( Painting is the issue - you can paint the wood ones, but it is extremely difficult do do it such that the paint doesn't result in some reduction in the ease of raising and lowering of the sashes.
Maintenance: Vinyl - little to no maintenance. Wood - needs maintenance. Again, the paint is the 2 edged sword.
What's appropiate for your house? Depends. On the look you want. On how much your house is worth... Here, the break point is about $1mil for new construction homes in my area any way. Above a mil, home buyers just want the look. The other stuff they don't really care about. Maintenance? They have people to do that. Below a mil - those people might actually have to think about how high their fuel bills are and how much it costs to paint their house. Might actually be home enough to want to open a window occasionally. Funny thing is that more often than not, around here anyway, relatively cheap house-brand wood windows are installed in upper end homes...
A few other things re vinyl windows. The brands are very regional. I see these guys write about Milguards. Never seen them around here. And I'll bet the most popular vinyl windows in MA aren't available in GA... or CA... Here one popular brand is Silverline. Most people here at BT have probably never heard of 'em...
Vinyls do tend to flex a bit. I'll never install a triple - I'd go with 3 singles with stud pockets. Doubles - I try and stay away from them but a lot of house plans call for 'em. Picture window? Come up with another plan.
Re vinyl installs, a lot of guys thing vinyls don't need to be shimmed. I used to think that. Well, actually they do - OK not like a wood window, but at the very minimum 2 shims at the bottom to level the unit up and 2 at either side of the meeting rail (the heavy horizontal bar usually in the middle on single or double hungs).
For me, going forward, I can't see me building a house for us with other than vinyl. I'm not a big money guy. I mostly look for value for a price, even if it's not the cheapest. The house I live in now I put fairly expensive K&K windows. I forget - it was either $12 or $15k for 33 windows - 9 years ago. Mostly double hungs... and they stick. Some worse than others. The 33# includes the little transoms above some larger windows. Casements aren't nearly as bad as double/single hung. With today's vinyl windows I'm sold. I like traditional architecture so the white painted trim isn't a big prob for me... I'll just go with no grids - to solve that problem...
I'm a General Contractor in Indiana and I've been in the business for 39 years. Vinyl windows have evolved tremendously in these years. We have no reservation in using them They are accepted within a certain criteria in most places. I 've traveled a lot and I'm aware of the practices of most states. Here is the criteria. Upper end homes expect quality clad windows which are aluminum or vinyl cladding on the exteriors and wood on the interior . Now this interior wood can be factory finish with paint or stain or professionally done. Middle of the road and lower end homes have vinyl windows. A better quality home (middle of the road ) will have a better quality vinyl. In these parts Polaris Ultraweld are considered the Cadillac of vinyl windows. I just finished and put on the market a 2800 sq. ft. home with vinyl windows and it was accepted good. I am also building a 7200 sq.ft. home with Andersen Clad windows. This decision was based on the neighborhood not the quality or choice between vinyl or wood rather than what customers perceive to be good quality. My suggestion is go with a good vinyl but do your research on the vinyl windows and especially your contractor
Good luck
Look into fiberglass.
Better product than vinyl--more green too.
Pella Impervia, for one. I've installed them, they're very nice and competitive with vinyl.
Make a finless replacement variety too.
I will throw one more option at you Fiberglass frames that can be either powder coated on both sides or wood veneer on the inside. As some one suggested Millguard windows also has that option. If you can't get the outside color you want in fiberglass they are easily painted and will hold paint extremely well for many years.