Replies

1. 
   dieselpig | Mar 24, 2004 04:48am | #1

   It doesn't.  It leaks like crazy.  Even a "great" installation ( 1 in about 400 installations) will leak.  It's junk.  Absolute junk.

2. 
   Piffin | Mar 24, 2004 04:53am | #2

   When I saw the title of the thread, all I could think of was, "Ha Ha, Ho Ho, Hee Hee"

    

    

   Welcome to the
   Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
    where ...
   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   Fitzcarpentr | Mar 24, 2004 05:04am | #5

   Thats my reaction too when i see it, Why do building inspectors allow it? I can't understand it for the life of me

1. 
   JeffBuck | Mar 25, 2004 03:57am | #16

   Thats my reaction too when i see it, Why do building inspectors allow it? I can't understand it for the life of me

   UH ... because properly installed .. it "works" just was well as any other siding material.

   Oh .. do you mean compared to something totally waterproof ... like a brick veneer?

   Or lap siding ...

   AHHH HA HA HA .....

   Here's a hint ... those Q's just might be a trap ......

   learn about properly installed siding ... it'll be a whole new world for ya.

   JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

        Artistry in Carpentry                

3. 
   JDRHI | Mar 24, 2004 04:53am | #3

   I particularly like the way the more intricate vinyl "mouldings" apply over the siding itself....now that`s a great look!

   J. D. Reynolds

   Home Improvements

   "DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"

4. 
   DanH | Mar 24, 2004 04:56am | #4

   This is one reason why you have to use a housewrap under vinyl. Steel's a little better, but not much. And though they will at least shed most of the rain, none of them will even slow down air infiltration.

5. 
   rjw | Mar 24, 2004 05:18am | #6

   Take a close look at the bottom edges. Those are weep holes to let water to dwhich has penetrated to drip back out.

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1. 
   Fitzcarpentr | Mar 24, 2004 05:42am | #7

   yeah, but water shouln't be behind there in the first place. And the claim is for the weep holes to let vapor out, not RAIN.

1. 
   jimz | Mar 24, 2004 05:12pm | #9

   Which brings to mind, don't you all cringe when you see people people power-washing, or worse yet, paying "professionals" to power wash their vinyl siding? I realize that there are techniques to observe, spray tips to use, etc. but I don't think that the "average Jack" knows, cause "Jack" doesn't know ..... well, you know.

1. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Mar 24, 2004 10:45pm | #11

   IMHO, any wall system that can't handle a good power washing is worthless. Water absolutely will penetrate the siding when it's power washed but it shouldn't create a problem if the wall is built right. Wind driven rain is nature's pressure washer and it doesn't take much pressure to get past the first barrier on any wall. EIFS is probably as close to "water proof" as you can get but even EIFS lets moisture in.

   For a bit of perspective, I've reviewed several studies showing that brick veneer will allow water into the wall cavity within 5 minutes just about every time it rains. Weeps are not at all intended for vapor only. The problems that plagued EIFS installations for a while was more than just leaks at poorly detiled window penetrations. The real destruction in the EIFS systems was due almost entirely to a failure to accomodate moisture migration out of the wall once it got in there.

   Still, you guys are right - vinyl looks and performs about like it's price point suggests it will. Yuck!Kevin Halliburton

   "Do you see a man skilled in his work? He will serve before kings; he will not serve before obscure men." - Solomon

6. 
   dIrishInMe | Mar 24, 2004 05:47am | #8

   Regardless of what type of siding you use you have to have a properly detailed drainage plane (rain screen) or whatever you want to call it, beneath the siding.  Cement board, for example, may well be provide a good weather shield the day the painter caulks it, but the caulk is gonna crack, and leaks are gonna happen.  Generally, any clapboard or shingle style siding is gonna have leaks when exposed to extreme wind driven rain.  It's the rain screen installation that makes the difference between a good exterior cladding job and a ticking timebomb.
    
   I'm not a big vinyl fan myself, but on the other hand, I'd never heard that it was only intended to be used over other sidings...
     

   Matt
7. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Mar 24, 2004 10:28pm | #10

   I'm not aware of any siding or veneer that doesn't allow water penetration or condensation in certain circumstances. The major flaw in many siding systems is failing to accomodate the quick exit of moisture out of the wall cavity once it muscles it's way in.

   Kevin Halliburton

   "Do you see a man skilled in his work? He will serve before kings; he will not serve before obscure men." - Solomon

1. 
   ronbudgell | Mar 24, 2004 10:53pm | #12

   I'm going to put vinyl on a concrete house this year and I don't plan to worry about it. Of course it'll leak. It always leaks. But it won't hurt the house.

   On a wooden house, it's a different matter. I had a large piece of a newly laid birch floor ruined a few years ago because a siding installer decided to put an "F" channel on upside down and to have a butt joint above a door.  His intention was good. He thought it made a better job, smoother.

   When the "F" is upside down, the bottom edge is then a hooked channel and it collected water where the wind whirled around in an ell of the house and lifted the rain water up to the soffit. The water then ran along the little channel of the "F" until it got to the first butt joint - above the door where the flashing wasn't behind the housewrap where it ought to have been. Another of the guy's brilliant thoughts was that putting the flashing behind the housewrap would compromise the air tightness of the job somehow.

   Ron

   Edited 3/24/2004 6:28 pm ET by RONBUDGELL

2. 
   DanH | Mar 25, 2004 12:00am | #13

   I think that conventional wood and composite sidings, properly installed and in good condition, can be regarded as waterproof. The slight amount of moisture that might get through will easily dissipate.

   (I should qualify that to say that it doesn't apply to tropical hurricane conditions. But it does apply to most "inland" areas.)

   Edited 3/24/2004 5:01 pm ET by Dan

1. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Mar 25, 2004 12:55am | #14

   I hear what you're saying Dan and I would agree that wood and composite installations do a far better job of keeping water out of a wall than most vinyl applications do, but I would not qualify them as water proof. It may be semantics but "water proof" would imply a perm rate significantly lower than cladding of any type provides.

   I'm simply saying that kinetic energy, air currents, capillary action, gravity and probably several other forces I can't think of right now will find the weak links in every system eventually and water behind the cladding will happen. Careful attention to the back up flashing and moisture dissipation paths cannot be over stressed on any siding application, no matter how tight.

   My point is that vinyl will work just fine if the back-up details are handled correctly and every siding job, whatever the material, should be approached with the back-up planned like the siding will leak as much as poorly installed vinyl.Kevin Halliburton

   "Do you see a man skilled in his work? He will serve before kings; he will not serve before obscure men." - Solomon

1. 
   SamT | Mar 25, 2004 01:06am | #15

   Tell 'em, Kevin.

   The finess of a home is all in the details you can't see.

   SamT

   Arguing with a Breaktimer is like mud-wrestling a pig -- Sooner or later you find out the pig loves it. Andy Engel

2. 
   jonblakemore | Mar 25, 2004 04:06am | #17

   Waterproof siding...

   I can think of one siding that would be waterproof. It's not wood, fiber cement, vinyl, or masonry.

   Call up Greencu and have him install copper panels with all the joints soldered. That I think could be wateproof.

   Otherwise, the siding is supposed to deal with 90% of the weather, then secondary systems clean up after it. Buildings leak, let 'em dry out.

   Of course you could still have a condensation problem with copper, so even that's not a sure thing. 

   Jon Blakemore

1. 
   SHazlett | Mar 25, 2004 02:08pm | #18

   I wish I had taken pictures of this cause it would make ya cry.

   Last fall I saw guys nailing on furring strips on a brick house and vinyl siding it.

   I guess the homeowners thought it would bring a "fresh modern look" to that lovely 80 year old brick home

1. 
   Fitzcarpentr | Mar 25, 2004 02:53pm | #19

   I hear ya, man... I hear ya.

2. 
   Booker | Mar 25, 2004 09:51pm | #22

   Ya'll are forgetting the single most important point.......when the inevitable "negative pressure" forms inside the home...water WILL penetrate any and all sidings. As a previous member mentioned....the drainage plane underneath therefore is as if not more important than the siding.

   Booker

3. 
   BungalowJeff | Mar 25, 2004 02:57pm | #20

   Sometimes perfectly good siding is covered up. I love the American Bungalow and Old House Journal pieces that mention happy discoveries of perfectly good, real siding freed from the vinyl oppression. Sometimes only minor work is needed to address the "violation"....that's not a mistake, it's rustic

4. 
   tenpenny | Mar 25, 2004 04:03pm | #21

   My MIL and FIL asked me what I thought about their house.  1960's bungalow with nice 6" clapboards.  Instead of painting again, they were thinking of putting vinyl on it.  (I have a new house with vinyl, I have no complaints, it's well built, I have nothing agains vinyl.)  I told them they were crazy - if I had a house with such nice siding, I wouldn't cover it up for anything.

5. 
   DanH | Mar 26, 2004 01:22am | #23

   Yeah, I was working on rehabbing a house for Habitat. We were repairing some of the aluminum siding and found redwood, in good condition, underneath. Unfortunately, the residing job had damaged the redwood too much to let us just re-expose it and clean it up.

6. 
   JeffBuck | Mar 26, 2004 06:04am | #26

   we did that exact same thing to the back of my parents house last year ....

   insulated the old brick between the furring ....

   Dad's thrilled he doesn't have to keep having the old brickwork pointed ...

   Mom's thrilled her heating bill was cut by a third.

   The back's the weather side .... I'm pretty sure the built up trim around the windows stopped the curtains from moving around on a windy day.

   Neighbor next door was going to the garage with her mother in law while we were working .... heard the MIL say .. That's not right ... You can't put siding on brick....

   The daughter in law said ... If it workes for them ... I'm getting a price to do ours next.

   Vinyl on brick ... almost as bad as a reroof w/o a tear off ... huh?

   Ahh ... ha ha ha .....

   BTW  .... Dad could give a rat's a$$ what anyone else thinks ....

   Jeff

   Buck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

        Artistry in Carpentry                

7. 
   SHazlett | Mar 26, 2004 01:42pm | #27

   Pretty funny Jeff

   but not exactly on target.vinyl over brick is hardly the same as a second layer of asphalt shingles. you are comparing apples to oranges. Properly done----the second layer of shingles will last as long as or longer than the original layer of shingles did. think the vinyl will last as long as the brick? ( the brick was fine after 80 plus years

   BTW----ya had to see this house to get an idea of the horror vinyl siding   is on it.I pass it almost every day in the fall---I know it pretty well

8. 
   tenpenny | Mar 26, 2004 03:30pm | #28

   Breast implants are horrific, too; but you see a lot of people doing it, and getting well paid / drooled over for doing so.

9. 
   BossHog | Mar 26, 2004 08:00pm | #31

   "Breast implants are horrific, too..."

   Now that's just plum sick. Don't know how you could say such a thing.

   Implants are one of man's greatest inventions... (-:

   Sometimes in life I feel like a man with no hands in a room full of breasts.

   Edited 3/26/2004 1:03 pm ET by Boss Hog

10. 
    BKCBUILDER | Mar 26, 2004 07:17pm | #30

    Hey, that vinyl over brick job was me and my crew....it's what the people wanted...customer is always right...even if they are dead wrong(and have a good check in hand)

     Oh, by the way...the big barn, and roof job I did in the fall that you quoted......we finished it in Jan., he started running his business out of it soon after.......  zoning showed up after numerous complaints....a variance request later(and turn-down) and his business must relocate. 250K barn...uh...ummm FOR SALE perhaps?

     Moral of the story.....in a area zoned Agricultural/residential...don't try to smoke 6000sq/ft "tree farm" barn by the officials when you are really running a tree trimming/removal/mulch business out of it. The big trucks and monsterous mulch piles give it away.

11. 
    Fitzcarpentr | Mar 26, 2004 04:20pm | #29

    Whoever inherits your dad's house is in for a NIGHTMARE! trapping in moisture around brck and making it a dark place is the perfect environment for dry-rot!!!!!!!!!! its an algie that just looooooves moist dark places. that brick is gonna crumble!

12. 
    JeffBuck | Mar 27, 2004 04:46am | #32

    wait ... I thot vinyl leaked like a sieve?

    Not water proof and all?

    So how's that trapping water?

    and ... in the basements I use that very same foam insulation in ... the idea of the foam is that it's NOT a vapor barior.

    Do U do this for a living .. or you just making it up as ya go?

    That brick will be just fine .... breathing ... and .... now protected from the direct weather.

    and ... just how do ya dry-rot brick?

    You are just making this up ..... ain't ya?

    Don't be too concerned ... I'm in the will for the house .... it'll make a damn fine slum lord rental.

    How much ya wanna bet .. and what's the timeline .. for the collapse?

    I'm game .... bet it outlives me.

    While I'll enjoy all the smarta$$ remarks as a reply .. thy to throw in a few facts to refute the building issues.

    Jeff

    Buck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

         Artistry in Carpentry                

13. 
    jonblakemore | Mar 27, 2004 05:05am | #33

    Come one jeff, didn't you read his post?

    WATER behind the siding will cause DRY rot.

    Don't you see the connection.

    I thought the first thing they teach apprentices is moisture causes dry rot. 

    Jon Blakemore

14. 
    JeffBuck | Mar 27, 2004 05:44am | #34

    trapped water, maybe.

    JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

         Artistry in Carpentry                

15. 
    Fitzcarpentr | Mar 27, 2004 05:47am | #35

    The dry rot will eat the mortar, not so much the brick. and yes it is going to take quite a few years. It just makes no sense to me to deliberately go out of your way to do that. its your house and do with it as you wish.

    But as far as the foam and the brick and the strapping goes and the vinyl letting the water out or whatever your arguement is, all i have to say is I've had to peel of siding and hadn't had rain in weeks before and the little weep holes were still weeping. and that was usually vinyl directly applied to wood siding.

    You have more air space for more vapor for more condensation and just plain more surfaces for all this to happen on. You seem sold on it tho, so I'm done arguing.

    Just one more thing tho,I would never make things up as I go along. There are too many excellent tradesmen here who would jump all over me if i were to try to do that.

8. 
   JohnSprung | Mar 26, 2004 01:41am | #24

   Of course vinyl is waterproof.  It can have water on the outside, and water on the inside between it and the house, but the vinyl itself remains unchanged.  If it doesn't dissolve and wash away, somebody will call it waterproof.  ;-)

   -- J.S.

1. 
   DanH | Mar 26, 2004 03:02am | #25

   It's also "maintenance free" -- you'll never have to paint it.

   (Of course, after ten years you may WANT to paint it, but you don't HAVE to.)