Vinyl Siding over Bare sheathing?
we have a builder around here that is putting up many starter homes, and mid-market homes, and he is putting the vinyl up over bare wood sheathing, no tarpaper or tyvek. Says it is the latest energy/building trend from seminars he goes to. Can’t see that it puts much more money in his pocket, he does first-rate, high quality mat’l otherwise, I figure what, about $200 per house he cuts? Inside the wall, he does the standard open fiberglass insulation, with a stapled plastic vapor barrier, with taped seams.
Also of note, local code (city) does require a barrier under the siding.
What do y’all folks think?
BTW, what is best, putting up vinyl siding with a roofing nailer, or drywall gun? (hehehe, been reading up on old posts this morning while the snow melts)
PB
Replies
That sounds like a short cut to me.
Considering vinyl siding isn't water tight.
I would think you would need something to protect
the sheathing. I either house wrap or felt my jobs.
Cheap Insurance!
My two pennies,Mitch
He will prabally tell you he has been building like that for years. Im sure he would say "ive always done it that way". Ask him to read the instructions on the vinyl siding. What seminars did he go to to tell him this?
Does the building inspector ever red-tag the house because of that?
Sounds like a modern dispose-a-house to me.
Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.
The other...proper application of risk.
Like Mitch said..
Vinyl is about as water-tight as a collander.
You need something behind it to shed water. Housewrap or felt.
He should be using a wrap but if he is not then at the very least there should be diverters installed at the bottom corners of the windows.
If there is nothing ....expect some big time rot and moisture problems in the next few years.
If the code requires a wrap how is he not using one ? is he grandfathered in?
I bet the recpticle boxes whistle in a good storm.
This size house his crew sides in a day. Guess luck of the draw that the inspector doesn't drop by.
I wonder what his liability is, in say 5 years, when it comes out that he is building out of code? Comments?
I wonder what his liability is, in say 5 years, when it comes out that he is building out of code? Comments?
If he builds the rest of the house with short cuts its not going to matter he will be out of business before thenView Image
I've seen it done on $400k houses. It's bad enough to put vinyl on such a house, but a lot worse to do it wrong and still get away with charging that much money for a bad installation.
On a decent sized house, I'd say your estimate of $200 saved is about half of what he made by not applying tyvek. We pay $100 for a 100' roll of the stuff, plus the labor costs of two men stapling it on, and not always without ladders, scaffolding, etc. It costs more than you think.
Everyone seems concerned about the water protection not afforded by vinyl over bare sheathing, but I would think just as bad is wind infiltration. Maybe it won't rot the house, but sure will waste a great deal of energy all by itself. Not sure if it's a code issue but it certainly goes against all good theory and installation instructions from manufacturers.
I'd agree with you about the savings be more then 200 bucks, it wasnt me who posted that.
Im no bidding expert but I would guess it saves about a grand or so a home with labor and materials maybe more.View Image
So true. I still don't know how to work this thing too well, I just reply to whoever is last on the screen to get a message screen, since it doesn't seem to thread messages, unless I just never got this set up right in the first place. Didn't mean to insinuate that it was you who'd said that, though it was not a grievous error, and besides, it seems like this must be a pretty small house if it can be sided in one day.
I've actually been in and out of a few of his houses at various stages of construction, and it's all good work. He is building in my neighborhood, so I get to get in and out of the houses under construction on a regular basis. I happened to be home for lunch one day when I caught the tyvek-less vinyl thing. Top-notch work otherwise, he'll probably be building for me when I'm ready in a couple of years -- but I'll be sure that he does the wrap.
Ever ask him why they dont use felt or house wrap? Beyond he went to a seminar, what the logic is behind it.View Image
This is common here in MD on any house under 500K. I don't understand it especially on the pre-built panelized houses with all those open breaks in the sheathing.
We trimmed on the other day and there was a hole to the outside big enough for a sparrow to fly through under the baseboard.
The builder sells down housewrap as making the house to tight and it needs to breath. It keeps down the sweating window calls in winter. These houses are so wet when built that by the time they dry out (if ever)the customer probably looses 100 sq/feet.
I view this type of construction as future gauranteed work for customers that haven't got a clue what good construction is.
Did you happen to notice how they detailedhe flashing at the doors and windows?
Mad Dog, The air infiltration is what I was alluding to when I said I bet the recpticles whistle.
Dave
Most model codes do not require sheathing paper when vinyl siding is installed over a rated structural sheathing.
Given that it is not required, the logic is: $1K can be saved on a typical 2000 sf house.
Bob
Even if its not required it just doesnt seem right, to many gaps for air and water to get through. Any idea why its not addressed in the codes?View Image
Even if its not required it just doesnt seem right, to many gaps for air and water to get through. Any idea why its not addressed in the codes?
It is addresed in the codes. Sheathing paper is required under masonry wall finishes, but not under vinyl, metal, and wood sidings. I suppose the rationale had something to do with the ability of moisure to escape when it gets behind these sidings.
I agree with you ... it doesn't seem right. Everything I have read on the subject indicates sheathing paper should be used, in conjunction with proper flashing techniques, to protect the walls from moisture intrusion.
Bob
KY building code (latest revision 2000) says :
Section R703.1
Exterior walls shall provide the building with a weather resistant exterior wall envelope. The exterior wall shall include flashing as described in R703.8. The exterior wall envelope shall be designed and constructed in such a manner as to prevent the accumulation of water within the wall assembly by providing a water- resistive barrier behind the exterior veneer as required by section R703.2.
Section R703.2 goes on to specify asphalt-saturated felt or other approved water-resistant materials. Further reading of the section concerning wood, stucco, masonary, and aluminum or vinyl siding does not reveal an exception to the above.
The 2000 residential code is based on a compilelation of ICC, CABO, BOCA, ICBO, and SBCC codes.
Dave
2000 IRC R703.2 Weather-resistant sheathing paper. Asphalt-saturated felt free from holes and breaks, weighing not less than 14 pounds per 100 square feet (0.683 kg/m2) and complying with ASTMD 226 or other approved weather-resistant material shall be applied over studs or sheathing of all exterior walls as required by Table R703.4. Such felt or material shall be applied horizontally, with the upper layer lapped over the lower layer not less than 2 inches (51 mm). Where joints occur, felt shall be lapped not less than 6 inches (152 mm).
Exception: Such felt or material is permitted to be omitted in the following situations:
1. In detached accessory buildings.
2. Under panel siding with shiplap joints or battens.
3. Under exterior wall finish materials as permitted in Table R703.4
4. Under paperbacked stucco lath.
Did you look at Table R703.4? You will find it supports my previous statements, because it was in fact the basis for those statements.
Bob
I agree that Table R703.4 does not list it as a requirement. However, the table is contary to the provision I sited. It has been my experience with the inspectors around here that provision are what they inforce.
Thus far just about everyone that has posted on this subject has agreed that vinyl siding w/o a water-resistive barrier behind it is poor, if not bad, home building. My reason for posting the provision was to show that the codes intent is to protect the wall assembly from water infiltration. Most exceptions to our code are noted as such in the provisions, not in the tables. I would not, and could, not get away with that type of installation in any of the counties I have worked in of KY.
Dave
I agree that Table R703.4 does not list it as a requirement. However, the table is contary to the provision I sited. It has been my experience with the inspectors around here that provision are what they inforce.
Table R703.4 does not contradict R703.1. Water penetration through the exterior wall envelope is rarely caused by the lack of sheathing paper. It is primarily a result of improper flashing.
Neither the fact that sheathing paper makes a better house, nor the fact that KY inspectors require sheathing paper is relavant with regard to the information I offered, which was, sheathing wrap is not required under vinyl siding by most model codes.
Bob
Correction to my post.
I and siting from the 2002 Kentucky Residential Code Book, first addition.
Just like PT isn't required as a mud sill codes are for building structures not an investment.
This is kind of a late note, but all the initial EIFS people had to do was to put the house wrap behind the eifs to begin with and they would have never had this problem !! It's hard to believe that the vinyl manufacturer has left themselves open for major liability by not spelling out how and what their product should be applied over. In such a case, the manufacturer's application instruction becomes the code.
Ken in Savannah, GA
Probozo,
I'm sorry I didn't catch this when you first posted. I was supposed to be on a job today where I was going to tear off some siding and wrap the home for the very reason you mentioned. Water getting behind vinyl siding, finding it's way behind window nailing flanges and into the home. Due to the wind, we postponed untill tomorrow. This home is 400K+. I've been doing some service work for this builder and this is not the first time I've been out on a call like this. I would be interested in knowing a good number on the cost to wrap a home in the framing stage (walls on the deck). Also, someone mentioned that a wrap is code somewhere. If they see this, could they post what part of the country they are located in. I'm in Harford County Maryland.
Thanks!
PLP
I'm also from Harford county, MD . It ain't hard to find an unwrapped house is it?If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?
GEOB21,
You are correct. I would go on to say that the ratio is 75 -25 with the 25 being wraped homes, no?
Are you a builder in HC?
PLP
No building. Licensed contractor doing anything to pay the bills. Do some trimming for new construction and some punch out. Stay away from most builders because the majority are really bad IMHO. My standards go down in relation to my checkbook and there are some builders I'll never admit to working for, but I got to eat.
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If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?
Edited 2/12/2003 10:46:25 PM ET by GEOB21
Also, someone mentioned that a wrap is code somewhere. If they see this, could they post what part of the country they are located in. I'm in Harford County Maryland.
I understand the BOCA 1998 Supplement requires sheathing paper under all siding materials. I cannot confirm this information because I do not have a copy of the Supplement.
Bob
Thanks Bob, I'll try and find it.
PLP
PLP,
As a carpenter's helper for a residential framing crew in southern Alabama, I can tell you exactly how much wrapping a house costs: $150 (approx.) per roll of house wrap, and $30-$60 for the worker's hourly wages. So for instance, the houses we build normally use two rolls of housewrap, and one usually takes me about three hours to wrap by myself. I make ten dollars an hour. So ($150x2) + ($10x3)= $330. That's how much it costs to housewrap.
Captain Strap,
Thanks for the input! I will adjust accordingly for our area.
I hope the weather is better there than it is here, I think your rain will turn into at least a foot of snow for us.
Take care!
The Peace!
PLP
When you figure your wages, keep a few things in mind:
First - Not many carpenters only make $10 an hour in the US. That would be more normal for the south and rural areas.
Second - Your labor cost to the customer is probably DOUBLE your wages. You have to allow for workman's comp, overhead, liability insurance, and other overhead.
Third - Not many houses are small enough that they can be wrapped in that amount of time. You can spend a lot of time aplying wrap to gable ends, second floor walls, dormers, etc.Drugs have helped teach an entire generation of American kids the metric system.