FHB Logo Facebook LinkedIn Email Pinterest Twitter X Instagram Tiktok YouTube Plus Icon Close Icon Navigation Search Icon Navigation Search Icon Arrow Down Icon Video Guide Icon Article Guide Icon Modal Close Icon Guide Search Icon Skip to content
Subscribe
Log In
  • How-To
  • Design
  • Tools & Materials
  • Restoration
  • Videos
  • Blogs
  • Forum
  • Magazine
  • Members
  • FHB House
  • Podcast
Log In

Discussion Forum

Discussion Forum

Vinyl Siding over Bare sheathing?

ProBozo | Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on February 10, 2003 09:15am

we have a builder around here that is putting up many starter homes, and mid-market homes, and he is putting the vinyl up over bare wood sheathing, no tarpaper or tyvek.  Says it is the latest energy/building trend from seminars he goes to.  Can’t see that it puts much more money in his pocket, he does first-rate, high quality mat’l otherwise, I figure what, about $200 per house he cuts?  Inside the wall, he does the standard open fiberglass insulation, with a stapled plastic vapor barrier, with taped seams.

Also of note, local code (city) does require a barrier under the siding.

What do y’all folks think?

BTW, what is best, putting up vinyl siding with a roofing nailer, or drywall gun?  (hehehe, been reading up on old posts this morning while the snow melts)

PB

Reply
  • X
  • facebook
  • linkedin
  • pinterest
  • email
  • add to favorites Log in or Sign up to save your favorite articles

Replies

  1. Oakey | Feb 10, 2003 09:31pm | #1

    That sounds like a short cut to me.

    Considering vinyl siding isn't water tight.

    I would think you would need something to protect

    the sheathing. I either house wrap or felt my jobs.

    Cheap Insurance!  

        My two pennies,Mitch 

    1. Ledebuhr1 | Feb 10, 2003 09:37pm | #2

      He will prabally tell you he has been building like that for years. Im sure he would say "ive always done it that way".  Ask him to read the instructions on the vinyl siding. What seminars did he go to to tell him this?

      Does the building inspector ever red-tag the house because of that?

  2. rez | Feb 10, 2003 10:04pm | #3

    Sounds like a modern  dispose-a-house  to me.

    Half of good living is staying out of bad situations.

    The other...proper application of risk.

     

     

  3. User avater
    Mongo | Feb 10, 2003 11:40pm | #4

    Like Mitch said..

    Vinyl is about as water-tight as a collander.

    You need something behind it to shed water. Housewrap or felt.

  4. bd342 | Feb 11, 2003 01:14am | #5

    He should be using a wrap but if he is not then at the very least there should be diverters installed at the bottom corners of the windows.

    If there is nothing ....expect some big time rot and moisture problems in the next few years.

    If the code requires a wrap how is he not using one ? is he grandfathered in?

    1. DaveRicheson | Feb 11, 2003 01:23am | #6

      I bet the recpticle boxes whistle in a good storm.

      1. User avater
        ProBozo | Feb 11, 2003 02:46am | #7

        This size house his crew sides in a day.  Guess luck of the draw that the inspector doesn't drop by.

        I wonder what his liability is, in say 5 years, when it comes out that he is building out of code?  Comments?

        1. CAGIV | Feb 11, 2003 09:05am | #8

          I wonder what his liability is, in say 5 years, when it comes out that he is building out of code?  Comments?

          If he builds the rest of the house with short cuts its not going to matter he will be out of business before thenView Image

          1. ScottMatson | Feb 11, 2003 07:56pm | #9

            I've seen it done on $400k houses. It's bad enough to put vinyl on such a house, but a lot worse to do it wrong and still get away with charging that much money for a bad installation.

            On a decent sized house, I'd say your estimate of $200 saved is about half of what he made by not applying tyvek. We pay $100 for a 100' roll of the stuff, plus the labor costs of two men stapling it on, and not always without ladders, scaffolding, etc. It costs more than you think.

            Everyone seems concerned about the water protection not afforded by vinyl over bare sheathing, but I would think just as bad is wind infiltration. Maybe it won't rot the house, but sure will waste a great deal of energy all by itself. Not sure if it's a code issue but it certainly goes against all good theory and installation instructions from manufacturers.

          2. CAGIV | Feb 11, 2003 09:28pm | #10

            I'd agree with you about the savings be more then 200 bucks, it wasnt me who posted that.

            Im no bidding expert but I would guess it saves about a grand or so a home with labor and materials maybe more.View Image

          3. ScottMatson | Feb 11, 2003 10:02pm | #11

            So true. I still don't know how to work this thing too well, I just reply to whoever is last on the screen to get a message screen, since it doesn't seem to thread messages, unless I just never got this set up right in the first place. Didn't mean to insinuate that it was you who'd said that, though it was not a grievous error, and besides, it seems like this must be a pretty small house if it can be sided in one day.

          4. User avater
            ProBozo | Feb 11, 2003 10:05pm | #12

            I've actually been in and out of a few of his houses at various stages of construction, and it's all good work.  He is building in my neighborhood, so I get to get in and out of the houses under construction on a regular basis.  I happened to be home for lunch one day when I caught the tyvek-less vinyl thing.  Top-notch work otherwise, he'll probably be building for me when I'm ready in a couple of years -- but I'll be sure that he does the wrap.

          5. CAGIV | Feb 11, 2003 11:05pm | #13

            Ever ask him why they dont use felt or house wrap? Beyond he went to a seminar, what the logic is behind it.View Image

          6. geob21 | Feb 12, 2003 01:12am | #14

            This is common here in MD on any house under 500K. I don't understand it especially on the pre-built panelized houses with all those open breaks in the sheathing.

            We trimmed on the other day and there was a hole to the outside big enough for a sparrow to fly through under the baseboard. 

            The builder sells down housewrap as making the house to tight and it needs to breath. It keeps down the sweating window calls in winter. These houses are so wet when built that by the time they dry out (if ever)the customer probably looses 100 sq/feet.

            I view this type of construction as future gauranteed work for customers that haven't got a clue what good construction is.

          7. DaveRicheson | Feb 12, 2003 01:15am | #15

            Did you happen to notice how they detailedhe flashing at the doors and windows?

            Mad Dog, The air infiltration is what I was alluding to when I said I bet the recpticles whistle.

            Dave

          8. InspectorBob | Feb 12, 2003 02:55am | #16

            Most model codes do not require sheathing paper when vinyl siding is installed over a rated structural sheathing.

            Given that it is not required, the logic is: $1K can be saved on a typical 2000 sf house.

            Bob

          9. CAGIV | Feb 12, 2003 03:07am | #17

            Even if its not required it just doesnt seem right, to many gaps for air and water to get through.  Any idea why its not addressed in the codes?View Image

          10. InspectorBob | Feb 12, 2003 03:38am | #18

            Even if its not required it just doesnt seem right, to many gaps for air and water to get through.  Any idea why its not addressed in the codes?

            It is addresed in the codes. Sheathing paper is required under masonry wall finishes, but not under vinyl, metal, and wood sidings. I suppose the rationale had something to do with the ability of moisure to escape when it gets behind these sidings.

            I agree with you ... it doesn't seem right. Everything I have read on the subject indicates sheathing paper should be used, in conjunction with proper flashing techniques, to protect the walls from moisture intrusion.

            Bob

          11. DaveRicheson | Feb 13, 2003 01:33am | #20

            KY building code (latest revision 2000) says :

            Section R703.1

            Exterior walls shall provide the building with a weather resistant exterior wall envelope. The exterior wall shall include flashing as described in  R703.8. The exterior wall envelope shall be designed and constructed in such a manner as to prevent the accumulation of water within the wall assembly by providing a water- resistive barrier behind the exterior veneer as required by section R703.2.

            Section R703.2 goes on to specify asphalt-saturated felt or other approved water-resistant materials. Further reading of the section concerning wood, stucco, masonary, and aluminum or vinyl siding does not reveal an exception to the above.

            The 2000 residential code is based on a compilelation of  ICC, CABO, BOCA, ICBO, and SBCC codes.

            Dave

          12. InspectorBob | Feb 13, 2003 01:55am | #22

            2000 IRC  R703.2 Weather-resistant sheathing paper. Asphalt-saturated felt free from holes and breaks, weighing not less than 14 pounds per 100 square feet (0.683 kg/m2) and complying with ASTMD 226 or other approved weather-resistant material shall be applied over studs or sheathing of all exterior walls as required by Table R703.4. Such felt or material shall be applied horizontally, with the upper layer lapped over the lower layer not less than 2 inches (51 mm). Where joints occur, felt shall be lapped not less than 6 inches (152 mm).

            Exception: Such felt or material is permitted to be omitted in the following situations:                         

            1. In detached accessory buildings.                                                                                                                 

            2. Under panel siding with shiplap joints or battens.                                                                                    

            3. Under exterior wall finish materials as permitted in Table R703.4                                                        

            4. Under paperbacked stucco lath.

            Did you look at Table R703.4? You will find it supports my previous statements, because it was in fact the basis for those statements.

            Bob

          13. DaveRicheson | Feb 13, 2003 04:33am | #26

            I agree that Table R703.4 does not list it as a requirement. However, the table is contary to the provision I sited. It has been my experience with the inspectors around here that provision are what they inforce.

            Thus far just about everyone that has posted on this subject has agreed that vinyl siding w/o a water-resistive barrier behind it is poor, if not bad, home building. My reason for posting the provision was to show that the codes intent is to protect the wall assembly from water infiltration. Most exceptions to our code are noted as such in the provisions, not in the tables. I would not, and could, not get away with that type of installation in any of the counties I have worked in of KY.

            Dave

          14. InspectorBob | Feb 13, 2003 05:07am | #27

            I agree that Table R703.4 does not list it as a requirement. However, the table is contary to the provision I sited. It has been my experience with the inspectors around here that provision are what they inforce.

            Table R703.4 does not contradict R703.1.  Water penetration through the exterior wall envelope is rarely caused by the lack of sheathing paper.  It is primarily a result of improper flashing.

            Neither the fact that sheathing paper makes a better house, nor the fact that KY inspectors require sheathing paper is relavant with regard to the information I offered, which was, sheathing wrap is not required under vinyl siding by most model codes.

            Bob

          15. DaveRicheson | Feb 13, 2003 01:37am | #21

            Correction to my post.

            I and siting from the 2002 Kentucky Residential Code Book, first addition.

          16. geob21 | Feb 12, 2003 03:41am | #19

            Just like PT isn't required as a mud sill  codes are for building structures not an investment.

          17. KenRubin | Feb 16, 2003 09:01pm | #34

            This is kind of a late note, but all the initial EIFS people had to do was to put the house wrap behind the eifs to begin with and they would have never had this problem !!   It's hard to believe that the vinyl manufacturer has left themselves open for major liability by not spelling out how and what their product should be applied over.  In such a case, the manufacturer's application instruction becomes the code.

            Ken in Savannah, GA

  5. buildit4you | Feb 13, 2003 02:12am | #23

    Probozo,

    I'm sorry I didn't catch this when you first posted.  I was supposed to be on a job today where I was going to tear off some siding and wrap the home for the very reason you mentioned.  Water getting behind vinyl siding, finding it's way behind window nailing flanges and into the home. Due to the wind, we postponed untill tomorrow. This home is 400K+.  I've been doing some service work for this builder and this is not the first time I've been out on a call like this.  I would be interested in knowing a good number on the cost to wrap a home in the framing stage (walls on the deck).  Also, someone mentioned that a wrap is code somewhere. If they see this, could they post what part of the country they are located in.  I'm in Harford County Maryland.

    Thanks!

    PLP

    1. geob21 | Feb 13, 2003 02:45am | #24

      I'm also from Harford county, MD . It ain't hard to find an unwrapped house is it?If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?

      1. buildit4you | Feb 13, 2003 05:51am | #29

        GEOB21,

        You are correct.  I would go on to say that the ratio is 75 -25 with the 25 being wraped homes, no?

        Are you a builder in HC?

        PLP

        1. geob21 | Feb 13, 2003 06:45am | #30

          No building. Licensed contractor doing anything to pay the bills. Do some trimming for new construction and some punch out. Stay away from most builders because the majority are really bad IMHO. My standards go down in relation to my checkbook and there are some builders I'll never admit to working for, but I got to eat.

           

           

           

           

          -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?

          Edited 2/12/2003 10:46:25 PM ET by GEOB21

    2. InspectorBob | Feb 13, 2003 03:08am | #25

      Also, someone mentioned that a wrap is code somewhere. If they see this, could they post what part of the country they are located in.  I'm in Harford County Maryland.

      I understand the BOCA 1998 Supplement requires sheathing paper under all siding materials. I cannot confirm this information because I do not have a copy of the Supplement.

      Bob

      1. buildit4you | Feb 13, 2003 05:44am | #28

        Thanks Bob, I'll try and find it.

        PLP

    3. FramerJay | Feb 16, 2003 12:00pm | #31

      PLP,

      As a carpenter's helper for a residential framing crew in southern Alabama, I can tell you exactly how much wrapping a house costs: $150 (approx.) per roll of house wrap, and $30-$60 for the worker's hourly wages. So for instance, the houses we build normally use two rolls of housewrap, and one usually takes me about three hours to wrap by myself. I make ten dollars an hour. So ($150x2) + ($10x3)= $330. That's how much it costs to housewrap.

      1. buildit4you | Feb 16, 2003 03:41pm | #32

        Captain Strap,

        Thanks for the input! I will adjust accordingly for our area.

        I hope the weather is better there than it is here, I think your rain will turn into at least a foot of snow for us.

        Take care!

        The Peace!

        PLP

      2. User avater
        BossHog | Feb 16, 2003 03:42pm | #33

        When you figure your wages, keep a few things in mind:

        First - Not many carpenters only make $10 an hour in the US. That would be more normal for the south and rural areas.

        Second - Your labor cost to the customer is probably DOUBLE your wages. You have to allow for workman's comp, overhead, liability insurance, and other overhead.

        Third - Not many houses are small enough that they can be wrapped in that amount of time. You can spend a lot of time aplying wrap to gable ends, second floor walls, dormers, etc.Drugs have helped teach an entire generation of American kids the metric system.

Log in or create an account to post a comment.

Sign up Log in

Become a member and get full access to FineHomebuilding.com

Video Shorts

Categories

  • Business
  • Code Questions
  • Construction Techniques
  • Energy, Heating & Insulation
  • General Discussion
  • Help/Work Wanted
  • Photo Gallery
  • Reader Classified
  • Tools for Home Building

Discussion Forum

Recent Posts and Replies

  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
View More Create Post

Up Next

Video Shorts

Featured Story

Podcast Episode 693: Old-House Hazards, Building Larsen Trusses, AI in Construction

The crew talks about work start times, fire-resistant construction, fixer-uppers, building Larsen trusses, and AI for construction.

Featured Video

A Modern California Home Wrapped in Rockwool Insulation for Energy Efficiency and Fire Resistance

The designer and builder of the 2018 Fine Homebuilding House detail why they chose mineral-wool batts and high-density boards for all of their insulation needs.

Related Stories

  • Podcast Episode 693: Old-House Hazards, Building Larsen Trusses, AI in Construction
  • FHB Podcast Segment: Finding Hazardous Materials in a Fixer-Upper
  • A Classic Paint Sprayer Gets a Thoughtful Refresh
  • Podcast Episode 692: Introduction to Trade Work, Embodied Carbon, and Envelope Improvements

Highlights

Fine Homebuilding All Access
Fine Homebuilding Podcast
Tool Tech
Plus, get an extra 20% off with code GIFT20

"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.

Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters
See all newsletters

Fine Homebuilding Magazine

  • Issue 332 - July 2025
    • Custom Built-ins With Job-Site Tools
    • Fight House Fires Through Design
    • Making the Move to Multifamily
  • Issue 331 - June 2025
    • A More Resilient Roof
    • Tool Test: You Need a Drywall Sander
    • Ducted vs. Ductless Heat Pumps
  • Issue 330 - April/May 2025
    • Deck Details for Durability
    • FAQs on HPWHs
    • 10 Tips for a Long-Lasting Paint Job
  • Issue 329 - Feb/Mar 2025
    • Smart Foundation for a Small Addition
    • A Kominka Comes West
    • Making Small Kitchens Work
  • Issue 328 - Dec/Jan 2025
    • How a Pro Replaces Columns
    • Passive House 3.0
    • Tool Test: Compact Line Lasers

Fine Home Building

Newsletter Sign-up

  • Fine Homebuilding

    Home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox.

  • Green Building Advisor

    Building science and energy efficiency advice, plus special offers, in your inbox.

  • Old House Journal

    Repair, renovation, and restoration tips, plus special offers, in your inbox.

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters

Follow

  • Fine Homebuilding

    Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
    • LinkedIn
  • GBA Prime

    Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • YouTube
  • Old House Journal

    Learn how to restore, repair, update, and decorate your home.

    Subscribe Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
  • Fine Homebuilding

    Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
    • LinkedIn
  • GBA Prime

    Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • YouTube
  • Old House Journal

    Learn how to restore, repair, update, and decorate your home.

    Subscribe Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X

Membership & Magazine

  • Online Archive
  • Start Free Trial
  • Magazine Subscription
  • Magazine Renewal
  • Gift a Subscription
  • Customer Support
  • Privacy Preferences
  • About
  • Contact
  • Advertise
  • Careers
  • Terms of Use
  • Site Map
  • Do not sell or share my information
  • Privacy Policy
  • Accessibility
  • California Privacy Rights

© 2025 Active Interest Media. All rights reserved.

Fine Homebuilding receives a commission for items purchased through links on this site, including Amazon Associates and other affiliate advertising programs.

  • Home Group
  • Antique Trader
  • Arts & Crafts Homes
  • Bank Note Reporter
  • Cabin Life
  • Cuisine at Home
  • Fine Gardening
  • Fine Woodworking
  • Green Building Advisor
  • Garden Gate
  • Horticulture
  • Keep Craft Alive
  • Log Home Living
  • Military Trader/Vehicles
  • Numismatic News
  • Numismaster
  • Old Cars Weekly
  • Old House Journal
  • Period Homes
  • Popular Woodworking
  • Script
  • ShopNotes
  • Sports Collectors Digest
  • Threads
  • Timber Home Living
  • Traditional Building
  • Woodsmith
  • World Coin News
  • Writer's Digest
Active Interest Media logo
X
X
This is a dialog window which overlays the main content of the page. The modal window is a 'site map' of the most critical areas of the site. Pressing the Escape (ESC) button will close the modal and bring you back to where you were on the page.

Main Menu

  • How-To
  • Design
  • Tools & Materials
  • Video
  • Blogs
  • Forum
  • Project Guides
  • Reader Projects
  • Magazine
  • Members
  • FHB House

Podcasts

  • FHB Podcast
  • ProTalk

Webinars

  • Upcoming and On-Demand

Podcasts

  • FHB Podcast
  • ProTalk

Webinars

  • Upcoming and On-Demand

Popular Topics

  • Kitchens
  • Business
  • Bedrooms
  • Roofs
  • Architecture and Design
  • Green Building
  • Decks
  • Framing
  • Safety
  • Remodeling
  • Bathrooms
  • Windows
  • Tilework
  • Ceilings
  • HVAC

Magazine

  • Current Issue
  • Past Issues
  • Magazine Index
  • Subscribe
  • Online Archive
  • Author Guidelines

All Access

  • Member Home
  • Start Free Trial
  • Gift Membership

Online Learning

  • Courses
  • Project Guides
  • Reader Projects
  • Podcast

More

  • FHB Ambassadors
  • FHB House
  • Customer Support

Account

  • Log In
  • Join

Newsletter

Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters
See all newsletters

Follow

  • X
  • YouTube
  • instagram
  • facebook
  • pinterest
  • Tiktok

Join All Access

Become a member and get instant access to thousands of videos, how-tos, tool reviews, and design features.

Start Your Free Trial

Subscribe

FHB Magazine

Start your subscription today and save up to 70%

Subscribe

Enjoy unlimited access to Fine Homebuilding. Join Now

Already a member? Log in

We hope you’ve enjoyed your free articles. To keep reading, become a member today.

Get complete site access to expert advice, how-to videos, Code Check, and more, plus the print magazine.

Start your FREE trial

Already a member? Log in

Privacy Policy Update

We use cookies, pixels, script and other tracking technologies to analyze and improve our service, to improve and personalize content, and for advertising to you. We also share information about your use of our site with third-party social media, advertising and analytics partners. You can view our Privacy Policy here and our Terms of Use here.

Cookies

Analytics

These cookies help us track site metrics to improve our sites and provide a better user experience.

Advertising/Social Media

These cookies are used to serve advertisements aligned with your interests.

Essential

These cookies are required to provide basic functions like page navigation and access to secure areas of the website.

Delete My Data

Delete all cookies and associated data