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Vinyl Windows

bergsteiger1 | Posted in General Discussion on March 8, 2008 03:11am

I spoke to a local company that installs Renewal by Anderson replacement

windows.    I needed a curved window but they said they were unable to

supply anything other than rectangular.  But he did leave me with some very negative literature about regular vinyl windows (the first few pages are attached). 

<!—-><!—-> <!—->

I have used both Jeld-Wen and Milgard vinyl windows purchased from HD and/or Lowes for remodeling projects and have not had any bad experiences so far.  Do you folks think vinyl is as bad as Anderson portrays it?  Here in Colorado wood windows usually don’t hold up well due to the strong UVs and the occasional hail, so vinyl seems like a natural choice.

Thanks

<!—->  <!—->

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  1. Riversong | Mar 08, 2008 03:32am | #1

    Vinyl (PVC) is the most common artificial material in consumer goods and one of the most environmentally damaging since it produces dioxins at both the font end (manufacture) and back end (incineration).

    Like any plastic, it's not a terribly stable material and deteriorates in UV.

    Aluminum clad windows are much more durable and somewhat more ecological.

    Fiberglass (pultrusion) windows are probably the best option for those who don't want wood.

     
    Riversong HouseWright
    Design *  * Build *  * Renovate *  * Consult
    Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes



    Edited 3/7/2008 7:32 pm ET by Riversong

    1. frammer52 | Mar 08, 2008 04:35am | #2

      my experience with vinyl replacement windows are both as homeowner and as installer.  I have several windows that are over 15yrs old with no sicolleration or leaks.

      Vinyl is not as bad as people would have you belive.  They will probably not last 100 yrs but will last as long as windows seals.

      The problem is the hype that these window marketers use.

      I did have a window salesman tell me that their windows have a r value of 11. wtf

      Same salesman told me they had warentee40% energy savings. wtf

      1. Riversong | Mar 08, 2008 04:54am | #3

        http://www.askthebuilder.com/073_Vinyl_Windows.shtml

        Heat (from direct sunlight), however, can cause big problems with some vinyl windows. Very close to 160 degrees F, most vinyls begin to loose some of their rigidity. Stress can cause frames to sag and distort. If you live in the South or Southwest, windows that face west can take a beating in the late afternoon. It is absolutely essential that you purchase high quality vinyl if you feel your windows will be exposed to this type of sunlight.

        http://www.soundproofwindows.com/aluminum_vinyl.html

        Aluminum will always outperform vinyl where noise abatement is concerned. Vinyl has no mass and has to be too thick to perform the same task that aluminum does.

        http://www.eastrow.org/articles/vinylwindows.html

        While it's true that they don't require painting (I don't think you could paint them if you wanted to), they are not a rigid material like wood, thus they shrink in cold weather, and expand in hot weather. What does this mean ? For example, vinyl begins to soften and distort at 165 degrees Fahrenheit, which is a temperature that's easily reached in the space between a window and drapes on a sunny day (winter or summer). And though all windows expand and contract with temperature changes, vinyl expands more than twice that of wood. It expands seven times farther than glass with each degree of temperature. This can cause the seal between the vinyl framework and the glass to fail. The problem increases with the size of the window; the bigger the sash, the sooner it fails. Can a vinyl window be repaired ? No.

        Vinyl windows have only been around about 20 years. Will they survive for a hundred ? No one knows, but studies prove that many of these windows installed since the early 1980s are failing at an alarming rate. 

        Riversong HouseWright

        Design *  * Build *  * Renovate *  * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes

        1. shellbuilder | Mar 08, 2008 05:00am | #4

          Riversong,

          Do you have a source for that failure rate or any other info, thanks 

          1. Riversong | Mar 08, 2008 05:04am | #5

            I included the link I got it from.  Where they got it from I can't tell you.  But I wouldn't be surprised because of the great differential expansion.

            One of the big advantages of pultruded fiberglass frames is that their expansion rate is exactly the same as glass. 

            Riversong HouseWright

            Design *  * Build *  * Renovate *  * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes

        2. frammer52 | Mar 08, 2008 05:17pm | #10

          according to the sources quoted they have problems.  I think you should look at the bias of each source.

          The last statement that they are failing aT alaarming rate, where are your sources?

          Vinyl windows have been around since the late 70's, personal experience.

          My windows again in my house, personal experience, do not sag or yellow

           

          Vinyl windows will last as long as the insulating glass ro longer.  Again personal experience

          No, they are not the windows to install in a historical building.

          They are a low cost window, made to help the average person in the average house, save on energy without the high cost of repairing or replacing wood windows.

    2. susiekitchen | Mar 10, 2008 07:08am | #22

      Have a mfr recommendation for fiberglass replacement windows?

      Last house we used vinyl windows, and for the 3 years we lived there afterward they were fine and much better than the single-glazed aluminum we had. However, PVC is not my favoite choice because of environmental concerns and quality wood/clad is getting too expensive. Our current low quality metal windows are falling apart.

      1. Riversong | Mar 10, 2008 11:58pm | #23

        No I don't, but I'd check out any of the Canadian manufacturers.  They seem to make a better product. 

        Riversong HouseWright

        Design *  * Build *  * Renovate *  * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes

        1. susiekitchen | Mar 13, 2008 01:17am | #24

          Will do, thanks!

  2. joeh | Mar 08, 2008 05:39am | #6

    You know vinyl windows work, why believe some salesmans BS?

    JeldWen glass meets the same standards as does Anderson, for 2 or 3 times the price you can use Anderson. What do you gain?

    Joe H

  3. billybatts | Mar 08, 2008 06:19am | #7

    http://www.rehau.co.uk/building.solutions/windows..doors...curtain.walling.systems/window.systems/window.systems.shtml

    this is what you want

  4. USAnigel | Mar 08, 2008 07:05am | #8

    You could take a look at some early Andersen vinyl wrapped windows where the wood rots at the ends of the sill.

    uPVC is the material used in the UK. Something to do with completed molecules not found in PVC. This is where the ultraviolet gets into the plastic but I've seen 1000's of pvc windows installed and unless the seal or glass is broken no problems yet.

  5. JimB | Mar 08, 2008 04:37pm | #9

    I noticed that the info about vinyl windows was produced by the "Homeowners Defense League".  A quick google search turned up a similar document about wood windows http://www.loveyourwindows.com/pdfs/Thinking-About-Wood-Windows.pdf

    But I couldn't find any information about who/what the Homeowners Defense League is.  I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but my guess is that the Homeowners Defense League is not a third party with no interest in promoting particular brands of windows.  

    1. User avater
      Matt | Mar 08, 2008 06:01pm | #11

      Here is the full length article.  It's interesting that the author didn't sign it...

      "Homeowners Defense League"  Interesting that they apparently don't have a web presents and that when you Google them you only get 2 results - one against vinyl windows - and one against wood windows - one has to wonder what they are selling...

      As far as the salesmen this guy dealt with, I thought one of the ABCs of selling is don't base your sales pitch on disparaging the competitions product...  Maybe I'm wrong on that.

      Question to all: who all has replaced failed vinyl windows?  Granted, when they first came out it would only make sense that they would have to have some time to perfect the product....  Still I haven't heard of the failures - but I don't do repairs - any more than I can help it... I have seen the yellowing, but again, I'll bet that those are some of the first generation product.  It only makes sense though that they wouldn't work well in extreme heat or cold.

      It was the same with vinyl siding - initial problems with fading, etc.  Doesn't do well in extreme cold or heat.  Now it's a pretty stable product - if you like that kind of thing....

      I have expensive K&K wood windows on my own home.  Some are AL clad and some have some kind of factory applied epoxie (or similar) paint on the exterior.   I'm not that impressed.  We really don't open them that much probably because 2/3s of them don't operate freely.  The painters made a genuine effort to prevent this but my conclusion is that it just kind of the nature of the beast - with wood windows.

      As an aside - the new energy code here in NC requires Low-E windows.  I'm elated, as I definitely think they are superior and the fact that all builders are required to install them levels the playing field.

      1. JimB | Mar 08, 2008 08:32pm | #14

        "Homeowners Defense League"  Interesting that they apparently don't have a web presents and that when you Google them you only get 2 results - one against vinyl windows - and one against wood windows - one has to wonder what they are selling...

        Exactly my point.  When we bought our current house--an early '60's  fixer-upper--I had heard all of the horror stories about vinyl windows, and figured the cost of replacing the existing vinyl replacement windows into the cost of the house. 

        Seven years later, I have to admit that I'm pretty happy with the windows, although I've had to replace a couple of broken latches and to fix a couple of minor installation problems.  Admittedly, I don't know how long the windows have been in place, but I'd guess at least 10 years.

  6. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Mar 08, 2008 07:46pm | #12

    Do you folks think vinyl is as bad as Anderson portrays it?

    I grew up in a SoCal home with Douglas fir, double hung windows.  The first time they needed paint, when I was in high school, the job fell to me. 

    I followed the paint store manager's instructions to a T; scraping, hand sanding, digging out the dried up glazing compound, and applying linseed oil to the areas to be reglazed.  Then reglazing, priming the bare wood, and finally two coats of oil based paint. 

    Working half days during summer vacation, I spent about six-eight hours on each of the sixteen windows, depending on the size and number of panes of glass.

    Although I gained some skill with a glazing knife and a paint brush, I found very little satisfaction in seeing a fresh coat of paint on those windows. 

    Knowing that they would need the same treatment again in another eight-ten years made me glad that I wouldn't be living there when that day arrived.

    When, after forty years, I installed Milgard vinyl double pane replacement windows in all those openings, it only took about one hour per unit.  Most to that time was spent in carefully pulling out the old sash. 

    The house is now remarkably quieter and more energy efficient.  But the best thing about those windows is that no one will ever have to spend any time on them, doing tedious maintenance. 

    Vinyl has come a long way, as Milgard's lifetime warranty strongly suggests. 

    Vinyl windows provide an excellent solution for many people who desire a low maintenance home. 

    Having been through the reglazing, repainting process twice, I'll opt for vinyl sash every time.  Life's just too short to spend my free time as a slave to tradition and all that it requires.

    1. User avater
      mmoogie | Mar 08, 2008 07:58pm | #13

      My double-hung windows are 144 years old. Many still have the original glass in them. I reconditioned them when I bought the house 15 years ago, and the ones on the south side are about ready for some repainting. Not a big deal.Steve

      1. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Mar 09, 2008 04:52am | #15

        Steve,

        I recognize that some people find more satisfaction in maintaining a historic home than I ever could.   So if my advocacy for freedom from such work offends anyone for whom such tasks are pleasurable, I appologize. 

        After all, I must admit that I really enjoy visiting older neighborhoods where the original intent has been respected by the current owners.  Riding through such places on a recreational bicycle trip is a wonderful experience, a step back in time on two levels. 

        1. User avater
          mmoogie | Mar 09, 2008 05:29am | #16

          No offense taken. I too realize that maintaining and older house is more work than some care to take on. My biggest hesitation with replacing original windows is that once they are gone, they are history. So I extend my thanks to those who are willing to invest the time and money in preservation. Steve

          1. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Mar 09, 2008 05:40am | #17

            Steve,

            Checking your profile I see you live near Cooperstown, one of my favorite historic places to visit.   The next time I plan a trip up that way, I'll check with you first for a list of not-to-be-missed old buildings.

          2. User avater
            mmoogie | Mar 09, 2008 07:19am | #18

            Yes, do. Feel free to look me up too. I would be happy to show you around the county a bit if you want.Steve

          3. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Mar 09, 2008 10:34am | #20

            Thanks.  I should be back in NY State this summer so I'll keep your kind offer in mind.

          4. bergsteiger1 | Mar 10, 2008 04:47am | #21

            My apologies to all who have posted. I entered the original post and then my computer died, so I have just gotten back on. A lot of the posts have been supportive of vinyl and I have to agree with them. I mentioned I have some Milgard windows. This is in a house at 10,000 feet on the Continental Divide in Colorado where we get a huge amount of snow each year. I have had these for more than 5 years now and have been very satisfied. A few of the window seals have given up, however Milgard replaced these under warranty. I think these failures were due the the altitude rather than any the fact they were in vinyl frames. As for the vinyl frames, I have had no problems whatsoever. So I plan to go with the vinyl for the replacements I originally wrote about. I want to thank all who contributed. Your messages were very interesting and greatly appreciated.

  7. User avater
    Jeff_Clarke | Mar 09, 2008 09:02am | #19

    http://www.integritywindows.com/?page=The_Ultrex_Advantage

  8. BobMaynes | Apr 26, 2012 02:49pm | #25

    Despite all the dire warnings you may have heard or read about vinyl (PVC) windows, including some outrageous misinformation contained in replies to this posting, vinyl has been and continues to be the material of choice for builders, remodelers and homeowners since it was first introduced to the US in the late 1970s. Today (2012) vinyl accounts for greater than 70% of all windows, while wood accounts for about 20%. Fiberglass holds firm at 4% way up from 2% since it was introduced in the 1990s. I find it interesting that the Andersen Renewal rep would leave propaganda against vinyl, since Andersen itself produces vinyl windows under their "Silverline" label, which can be found at most big box stores under the "American Craftsman"  brand.

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