I know this will start a debate but I’m gonna ask anyway :). I want/need to make crown, base, casing etc. and don’t know if I’m better off buying a W & H moulder or a shaper. I haven’t done any radius work but may/hope to in the future.
Thoughts?
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Replies
My vote for W&H.
It may be slow, but does a nice job. There are others whihc might work - Woodmaster, RBI, ...
Find Piffin and Andy Clifford, they both have W&H to my knowledge and I would assume both have shapers as well.
I think most folks will say the W & H. I think Stan Foster uses one alot as I recall him giving me alot of good info on it before.
I held off on buying one due to lack of need but will likely get one someday.
The only right answer is - It depends...
The W& will do more for you on long lengths without as much accessories, esp if you work alone.
Try using the advanced search function here for some previous disussions and some photos I've posted
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I have 2 shapers
the WH will cut the crown in one operation, maybe a couple of passes
the shaper will be at least 2 operations, more depending on the size.
in the end it could be the same # of passes
I prefer the shaper because I do a lot of cope and stick and I dont know if the WH will do panel raising. it would have to be open one side
also unless you grind your own knives you will be stuck buying them from WH. I can get router bits and moulding heads from anybody
My local sharpening and grinding service can grind W&H knives no problem.
BTW you can get W&H knives that are also corrugated backed so they can be used in a shaper or moulder.http://www.ballewsawandtool.com/shop/williams-hussey/wkw-high-speed-steel-williams-hussey-45-bevel.html
The W&H is open one side and there are dozens of places that cut knives for that machine.
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have you done any panel raising with it and can you panel raise arch and cathedral profiles? I would guess there are limitations to that.
I know you can get knives ground, but that takes time. router bits and moulding heads are more readily available. and I can change set-ups then back again in a minute or two.
having 2 shapers is great for cope and stick. I do a lot of raised panel wainscoting and cabinet doors. one shaper has a feeder and the 2nd I use for the cope. I can actually do the cope on a portable router table on site but in the shop I set up with a dial indicator, its fast and accurate.
can do, but far better to do door parts on a shaper than the W&H. I think of it for long milling, like base, casings, crown and chair rail
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I think I'm gonna get a shaper. Seems a bit more versatile for me, like making cope/stick doors - now I do it on the router table.
Now which brand to buy...hmmm?
I am going to tell you a great trick for doing cope and stick a lot faster.If you have a matched set that have an axial constant small diameter then you can stack one set on top of the other. Set the lower cutter at the exact hight needed and then make a custom auxiliary table the exact thickness needed to bring your stock up to the upper cutters. Then you can go back and forth between cope and stick in a matter of seconds.
thats a nice trick.
I have a better one, 2 shapers side by side
Yeah but my trick cost less and takes up less room.
I have a buddy who has one with three spindles working off one motor on same chassis, arrange so the three guide bars form a triangle, back to back...
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Is this the one?http://woodworker.com/3-work-station-shaper-5hp-3ph-mssu-832-280.aspThe problem with that machine is it takes up a lot of space. You can not put it up against a wall or post.
I too am envious of your shaper but have the same feeling as frenchy, at 30k how can it pay for itself? I have shapers and a molding machine, between the 2 I've been able to make most things I need. What can be made on the tilting shaper that couldn't be made on either of those two which would cover the cost?
For a "home" shop or smallest Carpentry Co. It's a big deal to drop 30 on a dedicated machine. But in the guitar shops I was a part of, we had dual spindle ( on in reverse) and tilters. When ya get 5-6K per instrument, and ya make more than a few a month, it just the cost of doing biz.If I had the $$ or credit, I'd lump out the 40K for an SCMI twin belt sander in the blink of an eye. Even if the want is stronger than the need ( that was a title to a song I wrote many yrs ago).My justification for that is I like figured woods, and tight tolerances on thickness, AND a almost ready for finsh surface ( read less manual sanding/scraping) so I can make the need seem pretty important.Lately, I've run into a lot of restoration type work where the moldings are either no longer made, or extreme set up charge applies for a small run, so I either bite the dollar bullet or hand plane it...I could see getting a shaper, but I doubt it'd be a Martin or SCMI on my buget and space confines, and where I see myself in say 5 yrs. or more. I'm going backwards to a more gentle and zen like woodworking. I've had my share of shrieking and screaming cutters.But then again, a Weinig is nice shop monster..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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yes. He mounted it with wheels so he can push it in the corner or pull it out into the center.
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I have to agree with you on this the shaper is the more versitle of the two plus it gives you a lot of options you'd have to pay extra for on a molder.
For example the ability to stack cutters to achieve differant profiles. Plus I bought a Grizzly shaper and it's much cheaper than a molder.. (not to mention cheaper cutters etc)..
I would get the shaper first.
If you can, get one that has an adapter for router bits.
You can get a lot of large carbide tipped 1/2" router bits for not to much $ now.
I just picked up a small Chinese shaper off Craigslist for $300.
You can always get the W+h later.
I think a shaper with a bunch of cutters wouldn't be used for the same thing as the W+H.
Will Rogers
Ya still need to surface and thickness stock before ya shape it, so in my mind it makes a lot more sense to be totally immersed and well tooled...get both. (G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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Having both wouldn't be a problem. ;^)"There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
I've had one for years. I think a shaper'd be the way to go for you. The W&H isn't particularly cheap so you best be in the dough if yer gonna get both.
One of THE main features I like about the W&H is how portable it is. I can carry it room to room ..up'n down flights of stairs no problem. I can get cutter blades a lot cheaper then W&H sells em for at several sources or buy the grinder and grind your own if you plan on doing a lot of work on it.
You also can plane on it but I think a dedicated planer is better to have unless you want an all in one tool which definitely has it's advantages in this case.
I've made tons of raised panel doors on it easily but when you get to making real narrow ones I'm not all that comfortable doing that....not that I still haven't done it...eeeeeeeeeee.
I'd probably trade mine for a good shaper if I had no other choice....yet I like it a real lot.
Depends how much ya need a portable machine.
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"when you get to making real narrow ones I'm not all that comfortable doing that..."Narrow doors or narrow moldings??? I couldn't decipher what you meant. I have made stuff small as 1/2" qtr round and some screen mold. No problem. As a matter of fact, making small stuff on it is a great way for me to use up small offcut rips
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the short ends of a narrow raised panel...because the infeed rollers aren't quite close enough together for the few panels I had to make so narrow. Not long ago I was feeding some mahogany through it with the planer blades and one of the bolts weren't tightened down enough and the cutter flew off the machine!!! YIKESSS...cracked into three pieces....thank god it didn't hit me. Scared the hell outta me. that'll teach me.
No one seems to want to sell me just one cutter blade. Guess I'll have to look harder. $100 a pop too...ouch..better off buying a planerView Image
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easy to do. I remind myself to double check all those bolts when I change blades.
I have a broken straight plane blade from an estate sale where I picked up a few blade sets.
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I have 3 shapers and a W/H (i'm also selling it, along with a molding profile grinder). First, I would but the shaper and a power feeder if you have the $$$ . It has alot more benefits in a shop. The w/h is nice for small runs, but i have found that larger molding runs are more economical to be subbed out to the appropriate people.
Is the W&H capable of making curved stair parts such as goosenecks , turns, and upeasings?For one or two piece batches I use my hand planes, power plane, and sanders but I have a large quantity(40+ pieces) to do coming up. I was planing on using the router table/shaper to profile the individual pieces and then glue it up afterwards as a simple way to do it but if the W&H can handle it I might try one.
I can't answer that, having not done it, but I tend to imagine that a shaper would be my tool of choice for those.
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BTW, what's the advantage of having a tilting head on a shaper? I heard something about being able to stretch a profile or something like that but I've never seen or read anything on the subject.
Bet you can get more explicit info on shapers over at Knots
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Having worked for years on a tilting shaper I can tell you that it has an order of magnitude of possibilities over a fixed shaper. BUT a cheap tilting shaper can be a night mare because the construction of a tilting machine has to be a lot more robust to handle vibration. Kind of like a sports car that is available as a convertible.
In the pic I would have needed an enormous cutter to reach out all the way to make the cut on this curved gutter.
Now that is a real shaper.. WOW! am I impressed..
Yeah Martin makes the best machines out there. The rig picture cost something close to 30K.
30K? how can that be profitable? I'm sorry but Is there that sort of market out there to make a machine and the operator profitable?
I don't know anything about that sort of market.. Could you give me some information please..
First off let me say that I do not own that machine. I just have the privilege of using it.
Second it depends on what kind of work you do. That curved gutter would be very difficult to do without a tilting shaper. I know guys that have abandoned that method in favor of a six figure 5 axis CNC machine. I specialize in doing custom architectural mill work including curved stuff. If you try to do work like that with router bits and table saw jigs it's going to take to long to justify the price charged.
Also the higher end machines are a lot safer, more precise, and consistent.
There are a whole bunch of safety feature incorporated into the machine by a company called Aigner.http://www.martin-usa.com/cms/_main/aigner/catalogue.htmlA lot of their products come standard on Martin machines and quite a few more were added to the machine I pictured. I would tell any body who does any kind of millwork to get that catalog. A lot of the items can be used on any machine and make things so much safer and faster.
It should be noted that the machine pictured has an auxiliary tenoning table, electronic motorized adjustments for up/down, tilt and up/down of the feeder. It is also capable of tilting 45 degrees BOTH ways, a Martin innovation.http://www.martin-usa.com/cms/_main/fraesen0/t27-flex.htmlThey also have that feature on one of their new sliding table saws. How cool is that.http://www.martin-usa.com/cms/_main/sawing/t60-prexision.html
I know of quite a few that have replaced five or six shapers in their shop with one unit such as this. Panhans, Martin, SCMI and quite a few others have fully automatic versions that store hundreds of setups. These machines automatically control your fence as well as the spindle. They even have quick attach spindles (hydrolock). Many production shops have stacks and stacks of cutters mounted to spindles for speed. Its all about speed, accuracy, and safety. Best I'll ever afford is a used version, but even those will set you back $15k for a 90's vintage model.
I agree that Aigner has a ton of great safety items, but beware, they come with a price to match. I think you would like their integral fence, but thats around $1200. I have a few, and I think they are worth it.
Brad
The Contermax on page 70 is a lot less money and well worth the money.
No but this will.http://www.usconceptsinc.com/archMoulder-fas-lx.cfm#
I maybe a few curves, but I don't think it would be worth the time. I does things more on the arched/radius moldins, such as casing. If your talking about strip laninating, then it wouhd work. Just a matter of how precision you work/cutters.
Your needing a shaper, butter yet, an over head pin router.
BTW, last time a did a curved rail, I could buy the laminated stips+the outside cull/moldstrips for bending
http://www.stairpartpros.com/6010B.html
Where are you? I've got grandad's Rockwell shaper with a new motor, that I've just never used. Floor stand with casters.
Interested?
Forrest (Atlanta, essentially)
Don't know where you are located.
http://boston.craigslist.org/nwb/tls/1484017769.html
$1500???? I'll sell mine for $1200!! with a half dozen cutter blades or more.View Image
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Do you not like your W&H? Just picked one up a few weeks ago.
I do like it but at this point I don't use it as much as I used to.
I had more of a need back when I bought it to bring it on the job with me but preferably I'd rather run my mouldings or whatever in the shop.View Image
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I didnt read through all the posts , so pardon the redundancy if any,Theres a couple of things with the william and hussey , there a retro-fit kit if the molder doesnt come with. It's a variable speed control , this give's an end product with less chatter on the profile. At times depending on the the size of the molding , the larger ones are prone to more chatter , i put a couple hundred pounds on the molder frame and changed the the belt to a link belt which both helped . But he variable speed control made all the diffrence. With W&H Molder it lays flat and has neoprene or polyurethane feed rolls that give you the control that you need when" molding" . I also used a grizzly shaper and at least one and possibly two power feeders were needed with feather boards and set up time it gets time consuming , but there is a trade off with the availability of cutters ,versatility . that i used i found the rpm slower than i wanted even with the ability to change the belt to higher rpm. That was with the smaller cutters , and router bits. until i got the power feeders and that coordinated the rpm of the shaper to the feed rate that was need to get efficient cut . The power feeders for a decent one go for around 400.00 bucks a piece . i.m h o . they need to to be together on the machine , at least the shaper i used .
Edited 11/27/2009 10:52 pm ET by alias
I keep hearing about the need for power feeders but in the thousands of feet of molding I've milled with my Grizzly I've never once had anything that wasn't easily controlled.. Since I kept my fingers well clear of the cutters I'm not sure what would happen if there were problem. My thinking is it would at most kick it back or out. Unlike a table saw where you are pretty much directly in line with the direction of a kickback with a shaper you're off to the side, pretty well out of harms way.
Does the model make a differance? I use the G1026.You should also be aware that I make simple jigs with hold down clamps when I am doing short work. In fact right now I'm paused between doing 1200 styles for raised panel work in my tower. There is no way I could elevate the piece the 7.25 degrees called for accuritely by hand so a simple jig like this is a real blessing..
Power feeder are an absolute necessity in IMO.
Besides making the job safer, they reduce strain on your fingers and arms, give you a better/more consistent cut, and while one piece is feeding thru you can get the next piece ready or wrap up a bundle etc.
I do not use a feeder all the time but as much as makes sense for the job at hand.
I had to briefly check if that was the same model , and it was when i got it it was missing alot of the fence it was bare bones and the different size shafts . When i finally constructed feather boards and was doing some round and elliptical work. Even with the nicely constructed feather boards , i didn't like the stop and go of the process ,,no matter how the proverbial ballet you must do for successful molding. The one of the successful factor in the process , besides nice and sharp cutters , is feed rate. Granted frenchy smaller work the feather boards and spring hold downs are sufficient . But anything over four feet lets say ,with multiple profile i like the power feeders , and to even dispel the safety end of it would kind of foolish. They have at least on that model,there isn't alot of rpm comparatively to a router( lower rpms for larger cutters) but the torque was enough to convince me. That it wasn't a bad idea . I like the visual of seeing what's going also. And attaching all the feather boards and such hindered that.
man, get yerself a feeder. I could not imagine even doing short runs without it. its especially useful for panel raising. money well spent.
I have a delta "baby feeder". its small but it works pretty well. I think I gave up about 3 bills for it some 15 years ago. if it died today I would spend the big bucks for a replacement
I have even mounted the feeder over my tablesaw for repititious cutting
I can easily see the use of a power feeder on a table saw.. I mean a kick back broke my arm, plus I've had a few boards kick back and knock the wind out of me..
However I've never felt the threat with a shaper that I do with a router table. Plus I've never once had a kick back with my shaper. Maybe because I take too light a pass or keep my cutters really sharp?
The power feeders I bought were money well spent. Prior to that when doing tongue and groove or trim I would usually have one guy feeding and one guy receiving. The power feeders replaced the second man. Saved lots of time and $. A do- it -yourself type is working with different cost parameters so your situation is different although as others have noted it also makes the process safer and improves the quality. You can achieve, I suspect, similar safety and quality with feather boards etc. but it would take me longer to do a setup like that.
Bottom line is it all depends on how much time you have, how long your production runs are and how much cash you want to invest. I work for money and anything that will enable me to improve quality, work faster, safer or more easily is worth considering. Obviously lots of nonprofessionals face different challenges.
Very good point.. Yes I worked by myself but since I was used to working 18-20 foot lengths I had a set up that would work with just me. The infeed rollars were 10 foot long. As was the outfeed rollars.. when I worked the really long boards I had a suplimental single rollar at both infeed and out feed.. thus 90% of those long boards were supported both in and out with virtaully no sliding resistance. I would set the rollers up .010 higher than the deck of the shaper and the feather boards hold it down that last .010. doing a slow walk along side I could vary my feed speed to keep things moving smoothly past the cutter head easily enough.
I learned never to run short pieces through the shaper, prefering to run full boards and then cut to length..
It's a good thing my shop is 50 feet long because I pretty well use all of it up.. That's why everything is on rollers.. I'd waste a lot of space with fixed machine locations..
I bought my W&H about 14 years ago. For trim work it does a great job. I made some upgrades to reduce the setup time. Pictures attached.
Looks like an efficient fingerboard arrangement.
You have the same jointer I have except mine is stationary.
Thank you for posting those pics, it was nice to see a working setup picture.
This setup was revised over the years so I could profile the face of moldings as well as the two side surfaces. For example if my door trim is 3.5” wide I would rough cut the trim boards 3.62”. The W & H cutter would be 5’ wide giving it enough strenght to cut the sidewalls without breaking.
Those side walls are over kill. When I used to grind knives I would make the side walls at most a 1/4" wide. Never had a problem.
did you find the previous thread too?
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I did do a search for the other William and Hussey threads seems it's the tool to get, it's a shame I never ever see one for sale on Craig's List otherwise I'd snap it up. Seen a couple Belsaw and Woodmasters but just haven't pulled the trigger , just hesitated for no reason and then a job'd come up and I'd be back to router tabling trim again.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250541069834&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
That is so old and bare bones it would not be worth it even if it was free!
I have a newer one (red). You'd be surprised to see how basic they are. I would pass on one because of age, if the price was in line. Your call, of course.
I made that comment because it is missing most of it's parts.
Here's one, but no bargain.http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370301704098&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
why say missing? It has what the original machine is sold with. The feed rollers and motor and sand are options.Necessary options, I would agree, but many shops want to buy just the bare machine and build around it with their own variable speed feeders and bench and motor.
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My W&H does not have variable speed feeder. It's available from W&H as a kit. Do you know of other options?
I'd sell mine for a grand with the rollers'n guide and the cutters I have with it.
I think I'd rather have a shaper at this point.View Image
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You deliver?
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Depends to who <W>
Now where's that Makita girl????View Image
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I'd take it, but I just picked one up a couple of months ago. That's a good deal with some knives. Might want to keep your knives. You can mount them in a shaper head.How's business on the island?First snow started here about an hour ago. (about 3 hrs north of you)
Edited 12/5/2009 1:43 pm ET by mike585
I have a nice reno going. New kitchen adjoining a new family room Cherry floors to go in the FR and tile and cabs etc etc etc etc in kitchen and.... awaiting for some customers I gave a whole house reno quote to in Sept ($750,000) to get a loan approved...so who knows? We shall see.It's raining here now but spose to turn into snoo tonight but hopefully won't amt to anything other than lookin' purty.View Image
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We are supposed to get a dusting of snow tonight, but I'm skeptical.Still, I spent the day picking up loose stuff out around the shop, and making more firewood
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Here's mine. I'll probably bite the bullet and get the variable speed feed kit from W&H.
Like Calvin says, I like the snow when I'm looking out the window at it.
Oooooooo....Yours is pretty and doesn't even have dust on it!;)I am likely to get the variable kit from them too, next time I need to make a good run of milling. Like Andy, I haven't used mine lately. But there have been times I could have benefitted from the VS.In a decent economy, a single man with a table saw and this machine could make a decent living, so I will never sell it.
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"Oooooooo....Yours is pretty and doesn't even have dust on it!"Not gonna go there, nope, not gonna.
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Gotta have variable speed. A little dust is ok.
OK, I'll admit it - I've had a couple drinks since I came inside and sat down here.Maybe I should close my E-bay window too. It'll be interesting to see what I won there come morning.
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Alcohol and eBay is bad news. I once almost ended up with a Lull Tellehandler from Rhode Island. I'm not even a contractor. Got outbid 4 days later with a half day to go. Had to tell the wife about it on the last day, cuz I thought it was gonna happen.
LMAONothing over $15 so farit's amazing what junk some people put out there.
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http://cgi.ebay.com/LULL-1995-844B-HIGHLANDER-8000-TELEHANDLER-BOOM-LIFT_W0QQitemZ280434244904QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Lifts?hash=item414b2efd28It's talkin' to me.
Let me buy you one - drink that is.
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I'll click the glass against the window to ya.
I'll bet Frenchy could talk you out of it.
"I'll bet Frenchy could talk you out of it."I'll bet yer right. I can do it myself though.
One of my subs uses a Delta Power feeder in one of his setups. He saw my6 WH and went and bought two of them - both used - because he liked it so much.One nice thing about buy them used is you usually get a bunch of knives thrwon into the deal.When I got mine, I bought it new with Baldour motor and stand for about $1500. I'm sure I have that much invested in knives since then.Here is my setup attached
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