Some friends who are GC’s are building this home near the Coast in Maine.
They have contracted a frame from N.H. which will be erected later today and beyond- then stress skinned.
They will complete the rest of the project. I’m lucky enough to be asked to install the slate roof when the time comes.
I’m hoping that they will continue on with this thread as the work progresses. I’m heading out to Vinalhaven in the morning ,but will return in the afternoon to take some more pics after the erection
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Replies
I'm taking Mike Smiths advice and only posting 4 pictures per post of this project.
So without further ado here are the next 4.
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Where do you get that amount of good lumber? Is it all FOHC? I've often wondered how you guys do it given the state of lumber today.John
I don't pretend to speak for the builders- I'm just fortunate enough to be able to slate it.
The frame is coming from out of state. The timbers are most likely being sent East by truck or train.
I'm hoping the guys GC'ing this project will jump in- I sent them a link, after having lunch with them and telling them of my intent to put this up. They're not quite as addicted to this site as myself YET
nice pics... let's hope they continue .. be nice to see a timber frame go up for a change of sceneryMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Thanks to you and Rez for the embedded picture pointers. You can teach an old dawg new tricks!
I sent links to both the guys doing the GCing as well as the owner. I hope they keep up the photo input.
I'll be there in the afternoon tomorrow to take some standing shots.
Walter
Built four TFs from oak always wanted to try doug fir. Looks like all joints been routered. be nice to see it go up here. Be watchin'
I'll post some in the evening tomorrow
You can tell they have done this before, the way it is all laid out. hope the weather holds until it is up. Wind probably didnb't help today.Vikings regularly gets green doug fir timbers up to 60' long amnd mills anything you want from it. Rockport Post and Beam does smilar tinberframing too and has no trroubel getting the lumber even though it gorws on the left side of the country so there must be a lot of it moving this way
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Paul,
Viking milled out all the timbers for my pergola several years ago.
Mike had it right- they're the guru's of timber work.
This frame was done locally by my neighbor and friend who specializes in beam work.
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Edited 1/10/2008 4:11 am ET by theslateman
great pergola there. It'll be fun watching this thread unfold as the frame goes up.BTW, did you intend to have one of the upper slats on your pergola get on the wrong side of the line?;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
http://www.zipolog.com/products.html
this mill is 6 blocks from my house. Their yard full of Dfir stock.
It's kind of sad to see the big logs still coming in on the trucks though.
Where are your Amish guys? Thought national regulations required Amish guys to be at all timber framing ;)
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Pic from: http://www.amishjigsawpuzzles.com/
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
Edited 1/9/2008 5:52 pm by JohnT8
Edited 1/9/2008 6:04 pm by JohnT8
I'm not sure that law pertains to the Great State of Maine!
Cool, from the Guru (Benson) no less.
How was the ferry ride today? Pretty windy here in Portland.
I'm the lucky guy who gets to live inside this frame. The wood is from the upper northwest. The routed cuts are from a machine brought from Germany, the design is from my head with lots of engineering help from Benson's crew, and the fine details are all theirs. Then there are shop folks, and the beam guys, and the drivers who are hauling all this stuff from NH and trying to get it up a muddy driveway.Weather was OK for the start of raising; fog but only a little wind and barely any rain but not a little mud. Thanks to my neighbor for the straw.Timbers are resting on a precise perimeter foundation laid by local crews which was finished just before the December snows. I'm amazed at the skill being applied to this project.
Paul,
You've gotten the posting with resized pictures down pat.
I hope you keep posting more shots. Even though replies are not numerous yet, I'm sure many folks will love to see this project move forward and follow along with the fine craftsmanship.
I'll add more this evening after the return from Vinalhaven.
Best regards, Walter
Walter,
My son just told me about this site. We have a homesite in Oceanville, outside of Stonington. I am interested in doing a timberframe there. Have an unusual situation in that I own a two hundred year old family tract in PA with three foot DBH second growth White Pine. Would like to discuss the option of using some of these trees. Realize that white pine is low strength, but know that it can be used and is very dimensionally stable. Logs would be mostly knot free as it is deep woods timber. Can you or the owner tell me where this site is and who is the timberframe company from NH? May be posted, but didn't see the location yet. Saw that you were headed to Vinalhaven and that triggered interest.
Edited 1/11/2008 8:54 am ET by moshenfreke
Looks like Bensonwood Homes.There are definitely other options if you want a shop willing to work with your timber.Check out this site: http://www.dytimberframing.com/timber-frame-gallery/garden-pavilion.html
Thankyou. Took a look and bookmarked. Black Cherry!
Jesse pointed you to the co. doing this work, but I doubt if they would want to incorporate your timbers.
The fellow holding the cribbage trophy earlier in this thread might entertain such a notion however. He's a framer- did my pergola( also earlier in this thread)
Walter
thanks for exposing yourself here. We are all going to be learning with this thread, so don't be afraid to post the mistakes too. I've always learned more from my mistakes than from what came together perfectly by some accident.See if you can get the crew to let you picture them up too. I may know some of them.
I am on Islesboro
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Paul,
The timber crew is from N.H.
The rest of the crew is from inland a bit. I doubt you know any of them.
You and I only know each other thru cyberspace. We've never grabbed on.
Walter What the he** are you doing up already?
"What the he** are you doing up already?"Gotta clear some cobwebs out of my eyes and get some billing done before I head off to the job.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"I'm amazed at the skill being applied to this project."
I'll second that! Welcome to Breaktime and thanks for allowing us to watch your new home go up. The photos are all excellent. Please keep posting as often as you like. I'm sure many others will get a lot out of this thread, just as I am.
Peter
where are you living while this is being built ?
this is a great shot ...
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
truly fine homebuilding.
thanks for posting
please send more pics soon
Love the thread and the pics - thanks!
'Course, I see the title and I hear Willie Nelson singing, ". . . like deperados waiting for a crane . . ."
Forrest
Mike,
Ferry ride is today at 7. Going out to look at 3 or 4 jobs left over from the Fall,that weren't done due to my hip issues.
Looking forward to meeting you soon- I've got to be down for a Dr. visit on the 31st. I'll buy lunch if you're able to grab an opening.
Walter
I'll probably be working in Harpswell on the 31st but if I'm not we should definitely get lunch.
Mike,
If not on that day I'll be in touch when I know I'll be down your way.
Walter
Walter,
Thanx for sharing.
Great to see some real carpentry and joinery.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Chuck,
The thanks are to the owner who's been gracious enough to let folks witness this project!
I'm only the camera man for now.
Best regards, Walter
Don't think for a moment though that I will hesitate to put up a ton of pics once the slate work commences.
Edited 1/10/2008 7:41 pm ET by theslateman
Nice home you're building. Best of luck and good weather.
Could you explain the screw jacks in the floor system. I'm not new to timberframe, nor well versed. But that's something Ive never seen b/4.
thanks.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Man. That, for lack of a better term, is pure framing ####!
I'd work for free on a job like this just to watch it going together. That joinery is un-freakin-believable.
Hope the pics keep comin' as this one progresses.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Edit: I guess I'm not allowed to mention framing pron, or whatever. ;-)
Edited 1/10/2008 9:31 am ET by MikeHennessy
Dude, don't even SAY "pron"!
Forrest - humbled
You're back!
Hey-wanna see the bear I just shot?
Bear ? I thought it was a beaver ? ?
Greg
My exposure was of udders...
big one(s).Liberty = Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
American Heritage Dictionary
Well, post a link ! ! ;^)
Greg
That's beautiful work. Looks like you are putting some fun back into carpentry. How do the fir beams hold up over time as far as shrinkage goes? Do you get a special grade that has been air dried for a time?John
I'm shopping for a frame. They mostly lead me to believe that doug fir doesn't check as much as others. That's all some shops will build outta.
I'm thinkin' white oak, they're thinkin' you sharpen the tools then. And expect lots of cracks.
I've GCed several DF timberframes. We have Canadian Timber Frames here, which makes frames, in Golden B.C. Their machine is called a Hundigger. I watched it work one day, quite amazing. It mills all the joinery from a digital 3D drawing.
They use green DF. It will check quite a bit, but who cares? The frames are still very beautiful. And expensive. Not just the frame, but after the frame goes up you still have to build a whole house around it and match it to the frame.
How do the fir beams hold up over time as far as shrinkage goes? Do you get a special grade that has been air dried for a time?
I built a few cathedral ceiling homes, one big one, with kiln dried douglas fir 4X rafters and beams during the 1970s and they've never had any shrinkage problems that I've heard of. The big one is in my neighborhood so I'd surely have heard of any problems.
One reason I'd favor doug fir for timber framing is it's great color spectrum with analine dye stains and polyurathane varnish.
On that big house I prefinished all the rafters and the ridge lumber before installing them, using pre-painted homasote panels as the roof deck. It's been a zero maintenance ceiling for thirty-five years.
I put up a number of beamed ceilings also at that time. It just seems the quality of lumber is so poor compared to 30 years ago, at least at the lumber yard, I wondered how they got such good material. I might need some one day. If I'm lucky.John
I know this is a vague question, but what kind of premium does a timber framed house cost over a stick framed one? Twice as much?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Depends who you ask.I hear a third to 50% more, depending on layout.
Frenchy says half as much - or something equally rediculous.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
We are finding it's 15% to 20% more expensive to do a timberframe.
I went to a log home show about 3 month ago. They had 4 timber frame companies and 20 Loghome builder there. I attended the timber frame seminar and they started talking about prices. According to one company the initial cost for timber framing was 50% more over stick framing, but the finished product has twice the value over a stick framed house. I guess you have to built in the right location to get this much payback for your investment. I don't know if these numbers are everywhere the same.Martin
Fast Eddie,
Regarding costs, it really depends on a lot of things.. I found it significantly cheaper to timberframe than to stick build.. plus I got better insulation and etc..
The timberframing you are looking at is done on a Hundigger (sp?) machine.. made in Germany that does everything according to blueprints.. Very spendy Very nice finished results..
Most timberframing is done with a handful of specialized tools. It's not that hard to learn if you stay with simple joints. (at least I didn't have any trouble and no I'd never done anything like this before)
The main mistake I made was to air dry my timbers in an attempt to minimize checking.. Don't do that! Yes, you get a lot less checks and those you do get aren't as ugly as green wood will check.. The down side is that the blades and cutting tools get dull so much faster. Plus the work load is massive! It took an average of 8 hours of work per timber on dried timbers but if they were green the average timber took me about an hour.. count the timbers in my house and you'll see where I made a major mistake drying them.. So it took eight hours and a minimum of two sets of planer blades. Whereas with green timbers I could do nearly ten timbers before I needed to replace the planer blades!
Since I did it myself I have less than 1/2 of what a similar sized stick framed house would have cost me.. I could have savd a lot more if I'd done it green plus even more if I'd built it like a traditional timberframe is built..
Mine is a double timberframe.. timbers inside, then SIP's and then timbers outside.. Infilled in the outside timbers I put stone.. real stone.
If I had a fresh sheet of paper I'd put timbers inside,, then ICF's and then stone.. no outside timbers (well maybe a few ornamental ones)
MY advantage is I made use of local woods.. I bought my timbers from a local sawmill. Just to give you a little idea of how cheap that is, the standard price paid for a 9"x7" x 9 foot long hardwood timber is $20-$22.00 so a 18 foot long one is about $44.00 (that's a nationwide price)
I have about 50,000 bd.ft. in building this house.. black walnut, cherry, white oak, hard maple, etc. all hardwood. Total cost for all of that wood was under $25,000 OH and I might add I massively over built. Floor joists are 2x12 spanning less than 10 feet 12 inches on center. Subflooring is 2 inch thick hardwood boards. Massive over kill! (But cheaper than plywood, cheaper than OSB. Heck it would have been cheaper than the same thickness of sheetrock!
Add the SIP's panels at around $3.00 per sq.ft. for walls and about $3.50 for the ceiling/roof and you have some idea of the basic costs involved.. the rest of it,, windows, millwork, electrical, plumbing, etc. should be around what they cost for a stick built house..
Not quite 2X unless you use SIPs; then 3X.
I agree, it's a good thing to know, where to get the premium grade DF timbers.
I'd guess that most of the big Oregon mills have selected logs which they set aside for special orders.
Some amount of checking in the timbers is expected. I'll never forget a friend of mine who built a timberframe years ago and was not forewarned about the sound that comes from checking. The first year they were in the house...on several occasions they were awoken with what sounded like a canon being fired inside the house. BANG! It always scared the #### out of them!
I'm also very interested in TFs and am strongly leaning toward Eastern White Pine. I know most of the other woods are stronger and can carry more weight and this means I'll have to use larger dimensions or reduce my spans but I just love the look of EWP. To me, it seems like a (Hundegger) machine cut EWP TF with SIPS would be heaven. I'm not real sure wether kiln drying or seasoning is a good thing or unecessary.
These timbers are not dried, they will check, twist little, and even produce a little sap in places. Almost all the joints are at least partially housed. There are a few metal devices chosen by the engineers to ensure more wood will remain in load-bearing beams that would otherwise be cut out for large mortise and tenons. The wood is from a small producer who picks over logs left by the big companies to find the gems (and they are gems).A little plug: to help keep costs down, visit Bensonwood Homes, a sub-project of Benson's company which is specializing in single-family home construction using a standard set of plans to offer choices in layout and size but also to avoid customization in the structure—leaving that for the skin. Pick one of these, and you'll get a fine house with superb insulation for just a bit more than the same space framed by sticks.
Very nice shots!!
I'll post some more here. It's very fine to have you willing to share your knowledge and design expertise. Lots of times it's only contractors who contribute and it's great your giving the other side of the coin.
As we talked today- there are lots of folks who'll enjoy this thread immensely.
Walter
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A few more from todays shoot.
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Why all the little jacks under each LVL?John
I don't know all the info to answer this query- so I'll let the owner speak to that if he's willing
I don't know, But my guess is that it is part of a system to keep the floors leveled over time as the timbers shrink
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Them's is Benson's method of incorporating a plenum for utility runs, reducing foot traffic noise, and HVAC, all while keeping a clean framed ceiling.
I'm not sure anyone else uses it.
Maybe mid span supports to leave room for hvac above the timber frame? Hang a ceiling down at the top of the timbers.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
i thought that was a neat detail too
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm trying to figure out why LVLs instead of I-Joists.
hard tellin, not knowinMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
LVLs are a lot stronger for a span.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Wow! Finally something I know a lot about.The stuff on the ends is a wax based product, the three kinds I have used are Anchorseal, Sealtite, and LandArk. It's the same stuff you might want to use on the end of IPE cuts. It keeps the end grain from releasing all the moisture. Most timbershops will use it on any endgrain cut (including inside mortises, etc).peteshlagor, you wrote "I'm thinkin' white oak, they're thinkin' you sharpen the tools then. And expect lots of cracks."White oak is actually significantly easier to work than fir, especially KD fir which I have used extensively. It is so much easier on hand tools, and blows out/splinters about 100X less than fir.The joinery on this frame is very interesting...I wonder how much is done by hand. Clearly much of the frame is cut by a Hundegger, but I'm not sure if it can do those valley cuts (probably) or the finished, exposed through tenons (probably not).Cool thread and project.
Edited 1/11/2008 7:10 am ET by jesse
Hi John, Those struts are an integral piece of our Open-Built system. This system gives the subs unprecedented access and flexibility for installing HVAC, plumbing, electrical, etc. Rather than nailing 2X6 or 2X8 T&G on top of the timber joists, we sit this floor system on them. Removable ceiling panels are then lain on top of the timbers covering all the systems above.
Is this a feature limited to only Benson built frames? Meaning, has you got a patent on the process?
Thanks for asking. Open-Built is registered to us and our floor system is just part of the overall equation. But if you look at the photos (or better yet, go to our web site, http://bensonwood.com/innovation/openbuilt.cfm) you can see how we're trying to make the building process easier for everyone.
Thanks for your reply. Are there any fire code issues? I know when I was in Calif. we had to have a fire stop every ten feet on furred down ceilings which this essentially is. John
Good question. We've never been called on this, but yes, you might have to put in blocking every so often to break up the space Fire rated ceiling panels are needed as well, plus some upsizing for char reduction on the timbers.
Greg,
Thanks for fleshing this out some more. Glad you took time to address this detail since I'm sure many of us here at Breaktime had never seen it.
Walter
We will try to answer all your questions.
--The fir timbers come from a fire kill area, so they are both POHC and standing dead and therefore very stable without kiln drying. Hundegger is our CNC of choice, however, all of the final finishing of our housings and all compund joinery is still done by hand.--The metal standoffs equipped with rubber dampeners are part of our OpenBuilt system that provides an open, organized and accessible chaseway between floors for all mechanical systems. It makes the installation of pipes, wires and ducts much more efficient and eliminates the tendency for tradespeople to carve up a structure that we at Bensonwood intend to last for 500 years. Gregg answered the question about fire codes. There will be no datos in our timbers, nor will the structural integrity of our wall panels be comprimised for electrical, plumming or hvac. Our envelope is completely sealed with the use of gaskets and foam. Nailing for trim and all cabinetry is built in, no blocking is needed and there is never a need to build in RO's. you have just awoken from all of your worst nightmares. --Part of the premium cost for timberframe homes compared to stick frame construction has historically resulted from what Ted calls the timberframe tax. This is the cost added to building a home by nearly all the trades charging more money for dealing with a timber frame. This is tipically atributed to the fact that in most cases timberframes have sip panels and closed floor systems. Sip panels and closed floor systems are (as we all know) difficult to deal with for trades people. Our OpenBuilt system is intended to eliminate these added costs by guaranteeing that the work of the trades will be easier, not harder, therefore making timberframe construction, in the least, more comparable to conventional built homes in cost. Our wall panels are framed with conventional methods in mind then insulated. The chaseways are incorporated in the walls mainly for electrical systems. They allow an elctrician the freedom to run wire anwhere throught the exterior walls without a drill in hand. Imagine wiring an entire timberframe home's exterior walls without a drill. Anyone interested yet??? http://www.bensonwood.com
If we have left anything out please post your questions.
The beam team in Stockton Springs Me. along with Ted Benson
""POHC "" Definition Please. Thank You.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I think I found it but I'm gonna have to go reread it a couple dozen times to figure it out.
Scroll down past the first paragraph.
http://gcisolutions.com/GCINOTES297.htm
Ok , the kilns stack gases are "scrubbed" somehow so as to make for cleaner air discharge? That right?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I was having about the same luck trying to get great prices on a Bosch CPK42-36
And I was trying the same tool-Google
What your gonna make me read it a dozen times?
Principal Organic Hydrocarbons (POHCs) are toxic organic compounds
Typo? I bet he meant FOHC, or free of heart center.Very interesting that it is from standing dead timber. I have seen a lot of coastal fir but never any standing dead, at least in house sized quantity.
Edited 1/15/2008 2:03 pm ET by jesse
That would make more sense. I have seen , and am aware of standing dead firs being harvested after fires. My understanding is that they have to be harvested pretty quickly though or the rot and bugs ruin them.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Yeah, I have actually worked with a fair amount of fire killed fir, but it was all local (to Montana). The quality of coastal fir far, far, far exceeds rocky mountain fir. It is much denser, and grows much straighter and larger.
Here is a pic of a local project I worked on. The drainage where the trees were harvested is visible from the house. We sawed all the timbers from logs.
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Nice Work there!
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Don't be a tease! We want to see some more. Very nice workmanship.
Walter
Jesse, were these timbers from the 2007 fires? Do they dry that fast, or did that wood come from earlier fires? Private, or did you have to deal with the FS?
Splinter,
Having trouble with e mail still, but Sphere helped me find the thread number I told you about. Try 90129
Walter http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=90129.1
Edited 1/16/2008 8:40 am ET by theslateman
Thank-you. Like many of the threads here, i'd only read part of it at the time and missed the grand finale. The transitions from one shape to another were a revelation. The last diamond rows at the ridge, though...that was brilliance. Nice as it is, it would just not have had the same impact without that feature tying the parts together. Did i read you had shingles ready for *siding*, though? (Yeah, pardon my hijack...)
Wow, you can really boost a guys ego!! Thanks for the kudos.
Yes siding slates will be hex pattern.
I think I've got a shot of them somewhereView Image
Ja, that's the pic. They look purty just sitting there...
They are from FS or state land up Rye Creek, near Darby. I am thinking they are from the 2004 fires, I believe we cut that frame in 2005...but I could be way off. They were part of a larger timber sale, we just bought them from loggers. They would have otherwise been destined for the lumberyard, I guess.They were still pretty green. It's a fine line between standing dead and dry or rotten with tons of ring shake. The timbers were definitely moving a lot after we sawed them...maybe 10% needed to be culled after milling due to twisting or bad splitting. It's tough to get good FOHC timbers from inland fir.Edited 1/16/2008 10:10 am ET by jesse
Edited 1/16/2008 10:11 am ET by jesse
I took some more pics today after a 14" snowfall on Monday.
Frame appears to be all completed and the panels are mostly on as well.
beamerb might be willing to answer questions if you have some- he's one of the beam crew there- and asked me about uploading pictures so he might share some too.
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Another batch of pictures taken this morning
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My last bunch for now.
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Hey Slateman,
Thanks for all of the great pics! I see in these SIP pictures that they are attaching lift loops to the panels with 2x4's. Can you tell how they've fastened the 2x4's to the SIP?
Just curious. I'm cutting the timbers for my own timber frame right now. In a couple of months, I'll be erecting the frame and installing SIPs. So, I'm in the market for all the tips I can get!
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
I believe that they're screwed into the osb- to be used as walking ledgers so the panels can be screwed into the rafters .
Maybe the beam crew will respond with more tonite.
I like that .
My first thought was - "Hey neat! pre-installed toe-boards!";)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Same screws (they look like they are using Timberlok (i think) screws with separate washers, I have used all GRKs) that they are using to screw the panels in. Then, you can screw a panel off, and use the same drill to release the rigging.
Thanks Jesse! If they're using timberloks, does that mean that the screws go through both OSB skins?
BTW, nice joinery on the frames in the other TF thread!
I started off with the dream of creating joinery that tight. Now, a year after I started making sawdust, I'll be thrilled if it goes together without sawing off tenons!!
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Edited 1/16/2008 4:18 pm ET by Hector45
Hector45
What I want to know is did they trial fit everything prior to shipping it or were they that confident in their work they hauled it from the Hundegger to the truck?
If they did the later than I really truely hate them! ;-)
I'm jealous of BOTH the Hundegger and the shop large enough to trial fit entire bents.
My timbers are hand-cut, from standing dead doug fir that moves like crazy, and the first time that tenon will see mortise is the day the crain and crew are on site!!
Should be a VERY interesting couple of days."Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Got any shots of your frame getting ready?
The did prefit the roof peak and valley section in the shop, but that was all, afaik.
Here are some shots of the wall panel detail as it sits on flexible tubing. Similar single part tubing sits between the panels as well. Also some shots of how the roof panels lock onto the purlin-type member in the main frame where it's more visible than the hook in the ell with the center timber "wall".
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Edited 1/16/2008 11:57 pm ET by HIRLASadding the actual pics
Edited 1/16/2008 11:58 pm ET by HIRLAS
Friendly "Bump"
You missed it.
He said they do hand fitting after the machine
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hector, it looks like those long screws go through both layers of osb and the foam, and into the rafters. That's usually how SIPs are installed.frenchy, most timberframe stuff is not test fit in the shop. In my experience, only some trusses are prefit (and often cam strapped together, drilled for pegging, then disassembled, whereby you can just get them close and start driving pegs on site. the pegs will pull everything together).
Jesse,
I was asking about the screws that attach the 2x4 to the SIP. Those are driven on the ground. If they are the same length as the attachment screws, then they'd stick out the back side of the panel by a few inches.
Obviously, that would be stronger, but I'd think you'd have to be careful with what you were doing. (ie don't drive a 2x4 attach screw in a location that will end up over a rafter, and don't let the exposed screw ends damage timbers as the SIP is maneuvered into place.)
Maybe I'm making it more complicated than it really is. "Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Hector45
usually the sheetrock is on the inside and the 2x4's are on the outside.. (at least in my case) I put the 2x4's on with 2" sheetrock screws.. I drilled the 2x4's so the screws slide in untill they went into the OSB.. (sorry Piffin) Never had a problem..
Edited 1/16/2008 5:03 pm ET by frenchy
That makes sense for 2x4 strapping. But these guys are lifting entire panels by 2 2x4's. I was trying to figure out how many screws it took to have confidence that those panels wouldn't take flight.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Hopefully the beam crew erecting this package will check in here tonite and respond to these questions.
They may even add some pictures if there is time.
Hector.
I used 8 screws per 2x4 used just two 2x4's and some of my panels were 12 inch x 4 x 30 feet.
jesse,
Pure hatred! ;-)
I cut each tennon and each mortice by hand and carefully measure them yet if I ever failed to test fit things that's the one that wouldn't fit!
The worst goof I did was offsetting the mortice pockets in one floor timber because I drew them wrong to start with.. All the bents are waiting to go up and it's getting dark..
No way could I have remade the floor timber.. (I was out of them and I didn't have the probably 10 hours that one took to make)..
If you ever come to my place let me show you how I corrected for a nearly 2 inch mistake.. 4 times :-(
I couldn't use wooden pegs because my inspector wouldn't approve them without an engineers sign off. Instead I used stainless steel lags counterbored to allow for phoney wooden pegs to cover them.. the look will be similar but the work isn't .. Instead of drilling one hole I had to drill a counter bore hole, a shank hole, and a pilot hole in each place! I'd guess somewhere around 12,000 lag bolts were used, Most around 1/2 by 12 inches..
The side benefit is they conform to European fire code requirements. but it sure was a lot more work..
stretchin it again , i see... that's 5 in one post....
hey.. i like this one... almost finished but snow on the floor ...
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Just checking to see if your watching your student!
I had 14 to post so I thought I'd do two fivers and a foursome.
Don't think I didn't wonder if you'd catch me.
Slate coming on March 1- then you'll see some pictures!!
Mike,
Once it's dried in I think they'll pour the radient floor slab.
Thanks for following along.
Walter
I don't think there is a floor poured yet there
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hey, waitaminnit! Are those braces running right over those windows in the second pic?? Oh, i don't like that...
I deleted that photo. Some things I just don't want to know about. ;-)
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
One day i'll have that kind of wisdom. Until then...just funnel all the dumb questions to me and i'll ask 'em!
Neat stuff. Timber framing and SIP's sure go together nicely.
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
John,
Thanks for breathing life back into this thread.
I haven't been there to take any more pictures, but need to load up some pipe stagings, etc. to set up the roof in the near future.
Looking forward to using new slate to apply to a new structure.
Have a great day. Walter
Here are some progress shots of this home.
I took some staging pieces to the jobsite today and with the owner and GC's permission I took some of the walls upstairs and readying the first floor to be re-barred and heat pipe installed.
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Mike Smith only likes 4 pictures per post so heres a few more !!
I hope your tuned in Mike !
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Tell or show us more about how these posts are being supported.
Prospero. ;-)
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Nice place to be indoors today. Does this cold hurt you r replacements?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
A mason friend and I dropped off some staging parts for setting up the roof later in the week, and went in to take some pictures.
We were only there for a half hour- but the wind outside today cut like a knife.
From there we travelled to Castine to purchase 12 rolls of lead for $60 a roll- basically half price.
The cold doesn't seem to bother the hip replacement yet- time will tell.
Walter
did you see my eyebrows raise as I read only sixty bucks?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Uncle Henry's scores again- look in last weeks issue.
Pete,
If you look back in my first post --- the 3rd picture down--- you can see the system that supports the bottom of the posts.
I'm just the photographer for now- so maybe Gregatbenson will chime in for more explanation.
Walter
Those metal supports were designed by Bensonwood. We knew that only the footings would be installed in the ground floor when we were ready to raise the frame. We knew what the datum elevation was supposed to be and relevant height differences between floors. BUT we didn't know the elevation of the top of the footings (and wouldn't know until we got to the site) so we had to have an ajustable support for those post feet that would ensure proper height and also ensure the posts were kept out of the concrete slab once it was poored. The supports had to also serve as a hold-down mechanism. This was our solution.
Greg,
Thanks for checking in and fleshing that out.
I think they'll be pouring this week.
Best regards, Walter
So the concrete finishes out at the bottom of the Lexan plate? How does that connection provide uplift resistance? Is the deformed bolt epoxied into the post?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Good question. The photo doesn't have enough resolution for you to see that the "deformed bolt" is actually a piece of a Timberlinx product. Here's their web site. It graphically explains how the product works. http://www.timberlinx.com/
So's you put one of the half links in the bottom of the post, locate it's corresponding point in the ceement, drill your hole for the concrete expanding half link, reposition and connect the two? The lexan goes at the base of the post above the connection? How's the lexan attached to the post? Or is it?
That's pretty close. The main thing after having one end secured (in the concrete, or other timber or steel) is to know how deep into the timber the "sleeve" portion and the "expanding T" portion meet.
Yeah... I could imagine that could be an issue.
How do you handle that?
Measuring and comparing distances to 1/16" is required because the expanding T only espands (and therefore pulls the timber tight) about 3/8".
You use lasers for that? That's pretty accurate woodworking. Are these holes drilled in the shop on that fancy shaping machine?
You have to remember that 1/16" is not abnormal accuracy for us. Infact, it's abnormal in-accuracy. Even when using large hand-held power saws, we're expected to be able to remove only half of the line made by a 0.7mm mechanical pencil. .....and we do allow the Hundegger to drill the hole where the expanding T is inserted, we usually had drill the hole for the sleeve portion.
How do you guys fight checking in oak or ash? Have you had any work recently with borer killed ash in the Great Lakes?
The guys building this home are extending the eaves, strapping the osb sheathing, then nailing 1x10 matched boards to have a suitable surface for the 100 + year slate roof.
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A few more of the roof sheathing
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The guys building this home are extending the eaves, strapping the osb sheathing, then nailing 1x10 matched boards
Excuse my ignorance, but why not just use Advantech or ply? Isn't all that 1x10 going to be covered up?jt8
"The unfortunate thing about this world is that good habits are so much easier to give up than bad ones." -- Somerset Maugham
John,
Those products might not last the 100 + years that the slate will be there, so we know matched boards are the best deck you can put down for a slate install.
Walter
The mason is getting set up to bring his double flue chimney thru the roof.
Some pictures of a temporary back pan to keep water intrusion out until we're slating this side. There will also be two skylights in this roof plane.
We'll be installing Sieger snow guards also to protect the standing seam roof on the lower roof.
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advantec is very dense too, so I would anticipate having a hard time hand nailing slates. Your hand already knows how hard to drive for pine or spruce. Having to wail away on Advantec could mean some breaks in the slates. Yes?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
And the opposite is true too..the last Slate roof I did was was on ( get ready) 1/2" osb ( not advantech) over 2' spaced trusses..that bouncy in the mid span was hell on copper nails and broken slate.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
That sounds like a roof not destined to reach the century mark.
You saw the pics..it was that Octagon one Dale and I did 2 yrs ago this month.
Man that whole roof system was wonky, we could feel the racking under us just loading the slate and when the wind would hit the big planes..I garuntee it won't see the 100yrs mark. Some real bad truss work and no bracing that we could find..we were glad to be outta that one.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I would anticipate having a hard time hand nailing slates.
Just the opposite is true. Advantech takes copper nails readily if you strike them true. I love the stuff.http://grantlogan.net/
Today we's learnin' about rawks. They's all kinds of rawks. These [picks up rock] is rawks which you throw. These here [throws rock at Rusty] is rawks that you get hit with. E.Cuyler
Good to know
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Masons had good warm weather yesterday and today to bring the brickwork thru the roof.
The GC's are sheathing the North side and drying in with Perma felt.
Slate scheduled to arrive the week of the 3rd.
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sheesh , walter, i expected to see them stripped down to their shorts
hey, are you going to make it out to Doud's in August ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I think my wife will be in Cambodia and Viet Nam for her work with Primary Source , but I haven't firmed up her times away yet. If she's gone I'll have to stay put here.
Theres a much better chance I'll be going to JLC Live in your neck of the woods soon.
Hows the Demo race shaping up in R. I. ?
Walter
well , Hillary is the odds-on favorite
but Obama's late surge may take the prize
personally, i'd like to see a smart woman run the country... but an inspiring black man wouldn't be so bad eitherMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
After today, i want to see a decent man instead of a vicious woman. Sheesh....I guess i'd also like to see the first WOMAN get in without having been First LADY.Carry on...i'll just wonder why the chimney flashing isn't spaced evenly...
Splintie,
She's going thru the 5 stages of grieving -- anger presently. It's slipping away and she can't stop it.
That's a very interesting analysis, but i blanche when i hear her scream "Shame on YOU!" and imagine an at-her-wit's-end mother scolding her recalcitrant children. If she and Bill get much more desperate, the next female candidate, instead of having doors opened for her by Hillary, will have a slew of recently reinforced stereotypes to overcome.
Slate tiles are coming to a drop nearby, but bad weather is close behind. The chimney is almost finished. Pup had a chance to stand on top of the chimney, or at least to pretend a moment; always going for the high point.
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Edited 2/28/2008 8:39 pm ET by HIRLAS
I talked with Dan and John today.
I'll help Dan remove my hoist and upper lifts of staging on Monday so that John will have room to trim the overhangs.
Sieger snow guards are enroute from Pa.
Dans roof staging around the chimney can remain until he returns in a week from Tues.
Walter
The slate has arrived from Vermont - 6 or 7 pallets of 16" long by R/W sea green .
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This picture shows an upper hole I've punched to test the ease of adding extra nail holes.
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A couple more of the slate pallets and the masons setting the bluestone cap.
The GC's will be trimming out the roof when weather permits -- then we can tackle the slating.
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looking forward to your work & picturesprobably should have perused thread more so excuse me if I've missed somethingI assume that is stone or brick covered w/ fiberglass insulation & tarp
is there an active heat source working on interior of house or is that to insulate intrinsic curing of mortarthere is little more beautiful for me than the olde scattered looking slate roofs w/ four or five colorations like grey to green to blue to brown etc - there does not appear to be a preoccupation w/ tamping down expenses on this beautiful project - would that mosaic look ( availability of product ) & scrambled courseline look affect their costs much??onward & upward, salud, John
John,
Yes after a mild spell in mid Jan. when the frame went up , we've had a real Winter for a change here. So yes the brick chimney is enclosed with the inside of the home heated and the cleanouts opened to let heat up thru the flues .
The slates will be random width, but all 16" long so there will not be staggered butts. Also the color is all the same - not as you've asked about a blend of colors.
Most of our roofs in Maine are our own black slate - unfortunately not made into shingles any longer. Also most are all of one size for both length and width.
New York and Penn. have numerous roofs of multi colored, graduated and textured roofs, but they are very uncommon here.
Walter
Those slates are no good. They have holes in them.................http://grantlogan.net/
Today we's learnin' about rawks. They's all kinds of rawks. These [picks up rock] is rawks which you throw. These here [throws rock at Rusty] is rawks that you get hit with. E.Cuyler
Well I'll be !! They do have holes -- but so do doughnuts and they're good right!!
Random widths? Do the other pallets contain the different widths?
Boy it's awfully hard to pull one over on you these days !!!
We've got 16 sq. of 12"x 16",3 sq. of 11" wide, 4 sq. of 10's and about another 4 sq. of 8's and 9's.
Gotta work on the mix we'll need for a pleasing effect, once laid on the roof.
Walter
Whew! I thought maybe you'd be doing a LOT of cutting!
We'll have plenty of cutting without making up different width ones.
We've got two skylights on the chimney side too.
did you put a cricket on the top side of the chimney??
I made a temporary pan to keep out water until we are slating the roof.
Pictures of it being made and soldered are back in this thread.
you do intent to put a cricket behind the chimney??? Right
thats what i asked i dont see one in your pictures
No you don't. Thats a temporary piece to keep out water. The roof is only dried in at this time.
Whew, those pallets look heavy. Tell me there's a boom on site. having to cart it all up a ladder makes my knees sore just thinking about it.
jt8
"Worry never robs tomorrow of its sorrow, it only saps today of its joy" --Leo F. Buscaglia
We had used an ele. Hoist spanning the highest tower of scaffold to get to the roof edge, then toted up armloads as needed. And, yup..it's a workout.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
John,
The pallets were taken off with a lumber truck boom lift.
When we bring them up to the roof level to be laid we'll use one of my electric ladder hoists. The pictures show a older gas model- but it's the same joy of not having to lug them up the ladder.
You still have to work them up the roof stagings by hand , but at least thats reasonably easy.
Walter
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the slateman,
You haven't had joy untill you have a telehandler with a 16 foot wide work basket. All your tools and materials are right at hand and you are walking on a flat surface with guard rails on three sides..
Even better is if you get the remote controllers now available you simply raise yourself up to whatever work height you like, no bending over, no feet at awkward angles . just lean over nail in place and move on.. Once done with one level you raise yourself up 8 inches or whatever to the next!
Did that on my 27/12 pitch roof and it was like shingling a wall that always stayed at the perfect height!
NO safety straps to trip over, no narrow walkways to share with material no bending over if you dropped something yu simply leaned over and picked it up.
Just too easy! Hard to feel like you earned your money..
Frenchy,
For some applications I'm sure you're correct about the machines of which you speak. When I'm doing work on turrets and odd shaped areas I often rent 60' and up man lifts for work and access.
I don't think roofing a 12/12 building thats 15' to the eaves is one of those situations.
Once set up with pipe stagings and walkways you'll see just how peaceful and easy this work can be. There will be no need for a diesel smoking ,loud, expensive piece of machinery that can't even be trucked over our weight posted roads.
I'm a small contractor who chooses to remain that way - so I don't want, need or expect I'll be paying a huge monthly payment just because it might sometimes be nice to eliminate climbing a ladder.
No sale here today Frenchy - but it's good you're still practicing for the next job.
Walter
the slateman
First I don't expect to ever go back to selling telehandlers.. the market is highly saturated around here with them and since they really don't wear out I see a very grime future trying to sell them..
Second.. think of it instead of a noisy, smelly, piece of equipment as portable staging.
I've got staging for those aeras where I cannot get equipment to my place but the time it takes to erect and tear down is much more time consuming than simply driving a machine over.
Let me give you an example of the potential time savings.
I did the driveway side of my house, the west wing, (both sides) about 19 square of hand split cedar shakes in the same time I had a crew of 4 do 12 square of 3 tab aspauhlt shingles.. The differance is that they were walking a 9/12 pitch and I was working as steep as a 27/12 pitch.
Now I'm nearly 60 years old and these were pro-roofing guys (hispanics) I'd guess they were in their 20's
I did it off a telehandler, they had to work off the scaffolding.. I did have the telehandler lift the shingles up to the ridge so all they had to do was walk the shingles down.
Frenchy,
You must be Piffins twin brother !
That story is quite hard to believe- you're telling me you put on 1.5 times as many wood shingles as 4 roofers put on asphalt shingles.
I was born at night, but it wasn't last nite !!
he did get your attention though, didn't he ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
He got my attention allright !
And I thought I was good !! A square a day laying slate is good -- sounds like Frenchy laid 19 sq. of wood in 10 hours !!
The slateman
Sad to say yes! What's more I put cedar breather under the shakes and believe it or not this was my first (and thus far only cedar shake roof)
Further my roofs had 6 dormers while the front roof had only 4 dormers. The differance as I see it was I was standing flat footed with no possiblity of sliding or falling with everything exactly at my side while they had to walk up and get the shingles and then walk back down and place them in place..
Me, I simply dealt them out onto the ledger board and ratttyyy- tat- tat they were in place. Move the ledger board up a run and deal again! Yes I did lean forward a bit but not a lot and everything was exactly at the right height for me.. no bending, no stooping, no problem..
Here's the final rub.. my roof doesn't leak!
Theirs has a leak that pops up if the wind comes from the Northeast. I'm pretty sure I 've found it, just a sloppy area around the tower.. I'll solder a curved copper deflector on the bottom half of the tower to prevent that from reoccuring. I'm not worried since those shingles were only there for a few years untill I can steam bend all the rest of my shingles for the front. but those too will be off the scaffolding and I'm not looking forward to the job at all..
That's gonna be well over a thousand shingles I'll need to steam bend and install and it's about 3 1/2 minutes per shingle to steam and bend.. Plus since I no longer sell telehandlers I won't have the use of one to "demo". all those shingles will go up via pulley.
Frenchy,
You should probably purchase one now that prices are down and start up your own roofing company.
With production at your level you'll be making money hand over fist.
Walter
the slateman,
Except I did mine in 4 days as did they.. That's not very fast on my part and it seemed dog slow on their part.. Now granted I worked longer hours than they did but my work was a whole lot easier than theirs..
Unless I'm wrong? Is putting up 4 3/4 sq. of shakes per day fast?
I think thats very fast production. On the other hand your shingle layers must have had their thumbs up their a**'s
you sure you weren't counting bundles not squares?
That question should be directed to Frenchy .
sorry
Not a problem - Frenchy will no doubt check back in.
frammer52
Go to 85891.6 and take a look It was squares..
Edited 3/7/2008 10:44 am ET by frenchy
Sure is a great thread. Been 5 days now so here's a bump.
bump
Peach full,easy feelin'.
Rez,
We've just started slating the South side of the main house roof.
Pictures coming up after I eat supper.
Thanks for the bump.
Walter
Finally getting some weather to start slating this great home.
The Perma felt is being changed out to 2 courses of Grace over our copper drip edge kicked up with a proper cant strip.
We're laying a R/W slate so we're mixing 4 or 5 widths of stone.
2 courses of Sieger snow guards are being installed to retain the snow on this 12/12 roof to protect the roof below.
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More shots of just getting going.
More in the Morning--- gotta go watch Countdown with Keith Olberman
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You gotta go back and put more wrinkles in the Gracie.
Peach full,easy feelin'.
Rez,
You're not one of THOSE types that think that sh** has to be totally flat I hope.
If so take a hike up here to the North woods to show us guys how it's done <G>
Actually I thought it was pretty good.
be I've done worse.
Peach full,easy feelin'.
Rez,
I thought you were busting my cajones there.
I've done much, much ,much worse than that. 85 degrees in a good breeze brings out my temper when laying Gracie.
Picture coming tom. of that big octagon bar you may want to borrow !!
Walter
Edited 3/14/2008 4:14 am ET by theslateman
That house looks sick.sick <- what all the kids are saying instead of "awesome"
Jesse, Thanks --I guess ??
Not up with the newest lingo. Walter
Those snow guards are so purty, theyd'd look nice just lying around my house.What is the reason for the several vertical red snapped lines, please?
Splintie,
They are quite attractive works of art in addition to being highly functional. How many building materials can that be said about?
We laid out a bunch of center lines for our random width courses of slate - got slightly carried away.
Walter
center lines for our random width courses
I'm sorry, that strikes me as a blonde joke. If the widths are random, how do you know where to snap the center lines?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Eddie,
Starting at the roofs centerline is the first line. We then gave ourselves other lines for reference at inch intervals.
Walter
Great thread and fine workmanship Walter, slate is a rare bird in this neck of the woods. Very interesting.
If making a day to day living wasn't a factor, my selfish dream would be to travel around and work with craftsmen like you and other fine folks on this project. Something about stuff like this feels so dang entrenched in old craft or something! Getting paid in knowledge and sore muscles would be plenty....
Threads like this and other's "picture and words" are as close as I may come...tooo cool, man. Beautiful!
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
Peter,
Thank you much.
I've also thought many times about travelling about and working on neat projects. I'd have to learn to say no more often here first though !!
Walter
If your a good girl, maybe you'll get one in your stocking --come late Dec.
You know what Bobbys says about me == don't you ???
Great! Two new front teeth AND a snow-retainer thingee for Christmas!It's hard to tell what bobbys says at all, but i've missed that particular wisdom in particular cuz i've had my head buried working on my place. What's bobby say about you?
He thinks I fly a sleigh, wear a red suit and smell like reindeer sh**
Just be careful when you put up your "Mission Accomplished" banner on the roof, 'K?
Thats a big 10 -4
Walter,
That sure looks good. Thanx for sharing.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Chuck,
I wished I were able to have your patience to complete that super job you're doing on your addition.
Thanks as always for looking and your kind words.
Walter
Looks good, keep the pics coming.
jt8
"A single rose can be my garden...a single friend, my world." --Leo Buscaglia
John,
I'll be resizing a bunch here in a little while and posting later.
Thanks for checking in. Walter
Some pictures of todays escapades on your home.
2 x 4 staging (temporary) to get skylight holes cut out and second course of Grace laid.
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More pictures of a copper clad Velux 304 being put in.
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The pics are great, thanks!
Wish I could be there, but I'm in Princeton, NJ right now and gaping at all the slate roofs on homes here. None so far have cut corners, but many have the snow guards; and several need a bit of repair!
Line me up some jobs <G>
I'll finish up now that I'm rolling.
Last picture is at lunch when we check the weapons!!
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Last batch and I'm starving !!
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Nice touch on those dubbed corners on the outside slates. I'm filing that away for future use. And I see who belongs to the pink toque.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
Grant,
Thanks-- It has a twofold purpose.
One is aesthetics obviously, but the second gives severe wind less to grab on the lower corners.
See I am more than just a pretty face !!
Walter
Eat well, sir!
You've darned well earned a King's ransom with that effort.
Beautiful thread on a craftsman's dream.Liberty = Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
American Heritage Dictionary
Why thank you Sir for the most wonderful compliments.
Keep watching over the next few weeks as we make more progress.
Walter
Walter,
Thank you for the great pics and descriptions of your skill and artistry.
I only use Velux Clad. I noticed your Velux were wood. Could this be a concern.
I think your copper flashing is superior to the anodized flashing Velux provides.
Chuck S
live, work, build, ...better with wood
Chuck,
The GC bought the Velux with exterior clad copper and the furnished copper flashings by Velux.
We're simply utilizing the flashings provided. It is done really nicely - a treat to work with -- I've put plenty of them in , but this is my first copper flashed one.
I've never used any that were'nt wooden interior.
I usually let the pictures do most of the talking - I should probably add more text, but lazy is as lazy does.
Thanks again for the encouragement. I'm loving your addition thread and wished my woodworking talents were approaching 15% of your skills.
Walter
Walter,
I revisited post 312. Thanx for the clarification.
With the attention to detail that you provide I doubt you have many lazy bones.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Chuck,
It was more about the lack of verbiage to go with the pictures than the actual work !
Walter
theslateman,
Is it true that red slate is the most durable? What does is the price of slate?
(I really like your work!)
Frenchy,
Thanks. slate goes from 400 a sq. and up.
The red is almost non-existant here in Maine -- none is quarried here, but in the New York/ vermont band of deposits.
I have never used much of it. I know it's dreadfully expensive and harder than the hinges of he**
Walter
Love the clipped corners, too!
I may review the tar strip on Hatteras for the same thing.
HmmmmLiberty = Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
American Heritage Dictionary
I may review the tar strip on Hatteras for the same thing.
My 1st thought as well. I don't think it will work.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
One more set before I devour something.
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Why do you use red chalk? Doesn't that stain the slate?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Eddie,
It's a holdover from the days when roofers used black felt for underlayment and many felt that red had more contrast and more visibility rather than blue.
Or the truth be known -- I'm a stubborn old fool who is too set in his ways to change!!
Slate has been used in Labs for many generations because of it's resistance to acids and such so I don't think a little chalk will prove deadly.
Only just below the skylights do we snap on top -- most field courses are on the underlayment.
What did you decide on that Bank building roof for widths and such?
Walter
We will use same-width slates. The gc has not submitted samples for approval yet, but has commented more than once that there is a long lead time, and the quarry says we need to be sure to order enough to get consistent coloring etc, and we keep telling them to sumbit samples for approval,. "Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Eddie,
Tell them you'd like samples of the black slate out of Quebec too.
Lead times might be less and I bet the stone is of comparable if not better quality.
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Edited 3/15/2008 9:17 am ET by theslateman
Hi Slateman,
in the picture in thread 99268.335 it shows staging that is sitting on already installed slate tiles. When you install the snow guards the mounting brackets are covered by the next course. How do you do this with the brackets for the staging when the next course is already installed? I hope this is not to stupid of a question to ask.Martin
Martin,
It's not a stupid question-- but I'm not fully sure I know what it is you're asking.
We stripped both asbestos and pine shingles off that roof then prepped and laid the slate. We installed the guards during the slating process. Every 8 courses of slates we install the wooden brackets with long tabs of scrap copper nailed above the last slates top---and it is slated over. We cut the tabs when the roof is completed from the top down to dismantle the roof stagings.
I hope that explains what you're asking, but if not fire another back at me.
Walter
WalterI like the idea with the copper straps your using, very smart. What gauge copper are they? Btw, keep up the good work, I like reading your stories.Martin
Martin,
We try and use up scrap 16 oz. copper for the tabs for our brackets.
They are a nice wide platform that distributes the weight of the people, slate, and planking over a larger area than just the narrow wooden shinglers brackets.
also theres no need to leave out slates to be hooked in later.
Thanks for tuning in.
Walter
Is that Saint Luke's? Went to school (SMTC) about ten years ago with a guy who was reroofing the Cathedral ......... heard some stories of hellacious winds. Is Monson slate still quarried>
That building --to give Eddie an indication of slate color --- is directly across from the Bangor House in Bangor Me.
Used to be owned by a church then a theater group- and lastly by a bank.
Monson is not quarried for roofing slate, but the green we're using on the timber framed home comes from Vermont from Sheldon slate owners of the Monson quarries.
They're online sheldonslate.com I believe.
Walter
We'll be doing a Boston ridge eventually , but while it was icy the other day these guys prepped our ridge slates.
John our GC ordered 11"x 16" unpunched slates that we've cut down the middle giving us a left and right which we then drilled with holes in a " 3 point hitch" pattern to help stabilize them once nailed in place.
Gravity wants to make the ends of the cap slates droop over time, so our nailing pattern and just a hint of cement to help will be our method to fight it.
Each course will be flashed with 16 oz. copper when we get there.
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Morning Walter,Great looking work!Grant beat me to the question about the clipped corners. But I've got one more. On one of the photos below the Velux, you've got some slate chips. Are those used as shims? Best,
Steve'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
Steve,
Very, very, perceptive !! I was going to note just that -- that was the reason for the picture-- but as my post above to Chuck says --lazy is ------.
Thanks for checking in.
I still haven't prodded my IT guy to help me with a site, but it will happen someday---remember that lazy thingy !!
Give Cal a little prodding over in "Breaktime on Breaktime" My last post of a few minutes ago.
Best regards, Walter
LOL. I wouldn't call it perceptive. I just like knowing how things go together and as Chuck can attest, don't mind asking questions that might be silly.Keep me posted on the IT stuff. My door is always open.And I'll make sure Calvin rounds up a few of those ladies for the golf game :)'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
Steve, That was far from silly-- you want the butts of the slates to lay down tight to the slate below.
When you've cut the top off -- as under the skylight, you sometimes have to shim it to keep the butt down properly. Yes it was perceptive.
Thanks again for the offers of help -- don't be surprised if I do bother you with some questions.
Walter
Walter,
The slate roof looks good. What company do you use for your slate. The only thing we would do different is a layer of felt or paper over the ice and water. I really like the deck that was put on, the TandG is the way to go. We did a project (new) that had 2" tandg, makes for a great roof deck. Don't you thing that the counter sunk holes need more attention from the quarry. Its seem I am alway punching holes becacause the quarries use that counter sunk hole drill.
Liam,
Yes the holes are not perfect -- but we'll make do like you say by adding as needed.
These the GC got from Sheldon Slate.
I'm not far from the Monson quarries -- I've seen some of your pictures at Joes where you've used it.
Now theres some fine holes to use for slating.
Carlos doesn't think much of my methods does he?!!
Walter
Start posting some of your work over here it's a great community and we all love pictures of work in progress
Heres a before and after showing the effects of gravity and no flashing in the before shot of hip slate caps.
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Are you saying that you do not want countersunk holes?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Eddie,
I won't speak for Liam , but the last picture in the post above shows a perfect Monson countersunk hole from the 19-teens.
Walter
Its seem I am alway punching holes becacause the quarries use that counter sunk hole drill.
Well, it seems to me he was saying that he was punching new holes in the slate because the factory hole was countersunk."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Well I am saying is that there not away done rigth. Haveing to repunch alot so that my nail sits rigth. Also know that I think about it, I have been getting some slate that are just drilled with out a countersink at all. That just wrong and there should be a better standard for the quarries.
Also I am on a job that every pcs of slate is cut at least one time and new nail holes are punched.
Why do you run your slate even to the drip? That seem to be a problem waiting to happen (Carlos will let you have it.).
The drip edge acts as the drip so I don't find a need to run the slate out beyond for a second drip edge.
Personal preference --- there will not be any problems with this method.
No danger of ladders damaging slates out beyond the drip edge.
i love the home your doing in vermont.
Start another thread here with your pictures of that job if you want.
Walter
Walter,
Where can one purchase the snowguards you used on this project?
Do you think they do a better job than other designs?
Thank you.lek
Contact siegersnowguards.com and ask for Kathy.
I don't think there is a better functioning , more appealing to look at , moderately priced snow guard available than their Model C in bronze.
Walter
Edited 5/13/2008 4:55 am ET by theslateman
ey mon what up with the plastic pipe flashin an all da fancy underlay?
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dis be my pipe flashin
you gotta make a rain line too mon
sorry bout da weatha mon!
We'll be making up one similar to yours today.
sorry about your weathah down there man!!!
We'll be making up one similar to yours today.
Won't that fancy cap on it ice up in your climate?http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
Not the fancy cap shown in his Googled search photo -- just the 20 oz. base with rolled cyl. of copper soldered onto the base.
Didn't feel up to posting more pics last nite. After that long recovery, my stamina isn't back to par yet.
Somebody near me has an English wheel and stretcher/ shrinker set up for sale. I might pick your brain after I call about it.
Thanks, Walter
Somebody near me has an English wheel and stretcher/ shrinker set up for sale. I might pick your brain after I call about it.
I've never found much use for an english wheel. If you need to make a one off type piece, I'd say they're great. But for numerous duplicate pieces, there's better machinery.
Like a shrinker/strectcher.
I'll help if I can.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
Here are some more showing our chimney flashing and Grace wrap so no wind driven water can find it's way into the structure.
Rain and wind coming -- and since we can look down the coast and see Brazil -- we're taking no chances with breaking out Velux units with flying slates.
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Nice Walter.
It was brutal out there today, wasn't it? I was out on Bailey Island (Harpswell) this morning on an oceanfront site and about froze my toes off.
Mike,
Spring will be here tomorrow so everything is wonderful !!!!
This morning was cold but less wind than prior few days. Your blood has thinned back out from your inside endeavors this Winter maybe ?
We're facing South on this pitch so when it's sunny it warms right up. The other side will be a little more chilly.
Whens Calvin gonna show us the Star Diner Dishes??
Walter
I've definitely become a wuss since coming back into the office!
It was quite windy where I was though. Probably 30-40 knots, and the snow/rain was starting. 34° when I got into my truck. That's cold for an office boy.
Man does that copper skylight look sharp. I rebuilt a couple with copper flashing on Nantucket a few years ago, but I don't have your skills--wonder how it's holding up.
Looking forward to spring! Wife and I have our new gardens all planned out. Tromped out their outlines in the snow last weekend!
I would like to see some pictures from the Star Diner. Seems like he might have posted some a few years back. The archer picture is pretty good stuff tho.
Walter,
Thank you for the detailed pix of the Velux and this thread.
You are a true Artisen. You remind me of a friend I visited today who is a Blacksmith. Marvin spent 15 years doing special effects in Hollywood, including the "Tree" in Jurrasic Park.
Kudos to "theslateman". Sorry for the View Image
Marvin at the trip hammer. This tool came from a belt driven, water powered mill somewhere in ME.
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Marvin does all Smithy work except as a farrier. He did shoe for a while and Marvin told me one time 'Why work on a 1600# animal that may strike(kick) me back'.
Here are a couple of Marvin's ballustrades. Sorry for the pictures of a picture.
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Marvin's tools
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Once again, I apologize for the thread jack. I just wanted to share someones craft and dedication that approaches yours.
Chuck S.live, work, build, ...better with wood
Chuck,
I'm no artisan compared with your friend - just an old stone roofer---no thats not stoned for those who might jump in here.
That is incredible work that Marvin does I'm really thrilled that you would share it!
Has there ever been a thread here that wasn't jacked ??
Where are more of your fine craftsmanship on the addition thread ?
Marvin looks like he has a very powerful upper torso from his smitty work.
Walter
Grant could have made that flashing , but that came out of a box!
We were just the installers -- the GC ordered and provided them -- my first copper velux. Hopefully not my last.
After the Fall and Winter off after surgery my blood isn't acclimated either.
A few more of the chimney unveiling
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Here are some of the interior brick work.
A Tulakivi unit is coming next week. I hope John or I are able to get some shots of it being installed.
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nice.... and you didn't test the 4-pic rule !
can you get us some when they do their mantle ?
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I believe there is soapstone as a top to the wood box , but I could be wrong .
John the builder is now taking some pictures too-- in fact some of these were taken by him, but he is not yet posting them.
I'll ask nicely on Mon. to see if he'll document the stove install.
You didn't chastise for that 5 spot yesterday !!
Walter
Those pics are all good. Inside or out. Keep 'em coming.
jt8
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."-- Mark Twain
How can you watch if your laying on the floor ??!!
Good luck healing up quickly.
Walter
I got to sleep in the bed last night. Such luxury! Spent some time at lunch reclining on a concrete floor, but otherwise it hasn't been too bad today. Not near as bad as Splinter's.
You got any new pics for us today?jt8
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."-- Mark Twain
Rain and mix of #### today so no work done on the roof.
We'll be there tomorrow so I'll have some tom. nite of bringing that side up above the chimney and finishing off the flashing.
Rain and mix of #### today
The folks south of us got flooded and the folks north of us are supposed to get 9-14" of snow. With any luck, maybe we'll get the sunny, Spring-like weather.
jt8
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."-- Mark Twain
John,
Rain turned to snow yesterday evening here and we got an inch or so.
Cold overnight and then NW winds kicked up steady 25 gusts to 40 +.
Arrived at the site at 7 :30 GC told us we were crazy.
Broomed off some snow from the roof - then set up some more pipe staging on the North side hoping the sun would come thru enough to melt some of the snow and ice . Took an early coffee then came out to begin a little slating. All the slates we left up on the roof and had tied down were frozen together so production wasn't stellar but we made some progress.
Warmed up after lunch and we made better headway, but the wind never did die down.
Got the other side of the chimney step flashed up so I could make up my top pan.I'll work tomorrow to solder that up and shingle over the back of the chimney.
Here are some pics from today.
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Some more photos from today's session.
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A few more for this setting.
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It looks like you've de-coupled a Little Giant Ladder for up there? How's that work out as a chicken stoop?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Purchased both halfs of that Little Giant at the local junkyard a few years ago for $15. The center knuckle was broken so it wasn't good for it's intended purpose, but it's perfect for a situation like this.
I needed extra height to get behind the chimney while the other guys were working our stagger towards the rake. I had my bracket set but they weren't high enough to install the others for that run.
Just saw on the news an EPDM roof blew off an MPBN building in Bangor today.
seeing these makes me think of Barry
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especially the no gloves bit
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Barry didn't like gloves either ayy !!
I buy string knit gloves from Northern Safety by the dozen pairs. Just got a shipment of 6 or 7 dozen pairs several light, several medium duty, and the balance heavyweight.
I wear them often, but I disrobed for the picture !!
I wear them often, but I disrobed for the picture !!
Yo, Santa! Do you go down the chimney at lunch time? ;-)
(my hair and beard are the same color, just not quite as long)
I'd like to, but that bluestone cap won't let my bowl full of jelly fit in.
I see you changed your cap colour for Grant
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Not surprising, the way the wind huffed and puffed! It was probably a ballasted job instead of anchored or glued
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Nope it was fully adhered -- picture on the front page of the Bangor Daily.
I have a bunch of helmets so grant had no sway.
I picked up that paper with the WOW photo this afternoon! It took that foam base right along with it. The article mentioned that there had been previous structural damage to the roof but didn't elaborate on what that was. Never seen one quite like that.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Beautiful work, thanks for the pics. Good to see that you and Mike M. are busy. Talked to my brother (midcoast) a week or so, he didn't sound very positive about the economy.
Thanks for the kudo's. Where is your brother located Rockland or further up?
He lives in greater metropolitan Edgecomb ..........works in Wiscasset.
Hey I live in Edgecomb!
More pics where I left off.
There are 5 here hope Smitty's not watching !!
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I've often thought we needed a good series on a chimney flashing sequence of details here. Good Job. This will get referenced quite often.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Paul,
I liked your idea and added the photos to a Shutterfly album -- I'll add the final ones on Monday. Heres the link to this far.
http://share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=8cbsmrhq0og¬ag=1
walter..... one of my nephews showed me a new ting yesterdayyour pics printed in a book and CHEAP and gorgeousi've done a book before or one of my customers... it was a big deal and expensive this is oline,,,,,,,, relatively easy.... cheap & fasthttp://www.blurb.com/ck it outMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/23/2008 11:23 am ET by MikeSmith
Mike,
I'm always up for a new way to showcase the work.
Thank you and Happy Easter.
Just charged up the point and shoots. Tulikivi man coming on Tues -- lots more pics of that operation.
Walter
Mike,
I just looked at it. What a perfect gift for a client as a documentary of the work on their project.
Walter
yes.... and what to do with those family slides i'm scanningMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Are those little copper hooks (?) on the bottom of the slates beneath the flashing there to keep the slates from flying off without the weight of a slate on top of them...or is it the drugs making me make up stories to satisfy my curiosity?
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Must be the drugs !!!
No those slate hooks help support the slate where nailing is scarce. In this case where the sheathing is held back from the masonry.
When doing repairs they are used more frequently to hold the bottom and nailing in one side only --- such as valley repairs.
Walter
Some more pictures of the chimney flashing.
Upper pan made up and soldered.
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Here comes the soldering up.
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Putting the pan in place and slating it in.
We'll set the lead on Monday and use a little Sika Flex to hold it in.
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The last of them for today.
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way cool walter.
don't know what i am most envious of---your pipe staging---or the presence of a port-a potty on site!!!!!!( man that would be nice!)BTW- the only place we even think of putting a cricket in-----is when a chimney is located smack dab in a valley
most of our chimneys are about 16" square--so a 24" back pan drops everything well clear of the chimney sidesalso we don't really get the snow/ice you probably do.got 15" a couple weeks ago-most roofs were snow free within 2 daysstephen
Stephen,
Thanks for looking in -- it's hard to tell who visits threads since most don't respond.
How is "butt boy " panning out?
I think we're past our accumulating snows at this point -- but April usually gives us one last dumping-- but like you said it goes quickly.
Walter
Looking good Walter!Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Cool pic with the reflected trees!
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And a little blood stain for good measure !!
That photo with the reflection of the poplars and birches is an art piece of its own
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Maybe you already covered this eariler.Why not go with a cricket for the chimney? Is a soldered cu pan equal or superior to a properly constructed cricket?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
The lead was already installed into the bricks while the chimney was being built.
This roof is 12/12 pitch 16" wide chimney 3' from the ridge.
this pan method is fine for this situation.
If it had been 3' from the eaves then a cricket would be required. this procedure is almost identical to the two Velux skylight flashings below us on the roof.
Walter
You have a point. I've never seen a skylight with a cricket!
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I wouldn't do a cricket for such a narrow chimney that close to the ridge either.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
So is your concern the volume of water, the speed at which it will hit the backside of the item being flashed, or both?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
All of the above.
I had a feeling that would be the answer!On another note, what do you feel the service life of this roof will be. 75 years? 100? More?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
We're trying hard to do a real nice install here. We've got a sweet 1x10 matched board deck for our substrate, copper fasteners , Grace and synthetic underlayment.
I've got to believe it's somewhere in the range of the two numbers you've mentioned.
All that and whether ice or debris is likely to collect and interfere with drainage
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
""All that and whether ice or debris is likely to collect and interfere with drainage"" That is a key to it. I have a repair for a friend to do later this spring. Archy shingles, wood framed chimney chase. 2' wide on the upslope side, BUT, a huge old fir tree plus some oaks on the lot and with no cricket he gets a leak after the debris piles up and blocks the drainage. So I will be installing a cricket even thought the chase is only about 3' below the ridge.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Looks like you're putting too much of yourself into your work. I bet that hurt.
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"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
When I was working with copper daily, it was a rare day that one of us didn't bleed..LOL
Every edge is sharp it seems. Lucky tho' ya get used to it and unless it's REALLY nasty..just keep on keepin on.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Just a small cut , but fingers bleed easily.
Hey there Walter-
Thanks for the link.
Good to see you back in action, and that's a good looking house.
Looks like lots of folks are appreciating this thread.
Passed your info along to the folks regarding that school building rehab.
Best
Dan
Dan,
Thanks a lot for checking in with us. We're hoping for a change in the weather soon , but who knows.
Thanks for the lead on the School on Islesboro. Maybe Ann could e mail a picture sometime or the folks out with you upon their return.
Good luck with the prep time before the shooting begins.
Walter
Hey there Walter
Will suggest to Stanley or Bill that they shoot you some images.
80 degrees on Coronado Island yesterday, too hot!
Best
Dan
Setting up on the North side to begin there.
A few good days here, but sloppy on Wed.
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Walter,Really good stuff!
My apologies if you mentioned this in other posts, but I notice you're not using a starter course. Is the fascia already canted, so there's no need for the starter course?
Thanks.lek
Doesn't this pic
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show a starter course?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,Thank you.
Must have been the weariness of the day and didn't catch it.
I guess I'll have to look twice before posting.lek
Early on in the roofing sequence it shows adding a cant strip prior to putting on the drip edge. This kicks up the starter slates so all subsequentcourses will lay at an angle on the roof.
Walter,What would you consider the minimum double head lap on a pitch like you're doing now?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
Most old roofs in our area were laid with 2" headlap. All the quarries sell their slate figuring 3" headlap now, that is what we've used.
With this pitch you could gain a bit by laying them at 2" , but theres really no point in doing so.
Walter
i think it was this pic that confused me... the first course is hiding the starter course
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and of course... this one makes it all plain as day
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Walter... i've got some of Barry's slating tools and slates out in the shop
makes me want to find a project to use them on
sweet work !
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/25/2008 9:09 am ET by MikeSmith
Edited 3/25/2008 9:10 am ET by MikeSmith
The Tulikivi started their set up today.
I'll be putting some pics up later after I eat.
Here are some pictures of the Tulikivi guys getting off loaded and set up for the install.
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A few more of the numerous parts required for this unit.
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Walter,
Is Tulikivi the Finnish soapstone firepalce kits?
Quality materiel.
Chuck S
live, work, build, ...better with wood
Edited 3/25/2008 7:20 pm ET by stevent1
Chuck,
Yes thats right on.
This unit is apparently quite complex.
Here are some more of the unloaded pieces. They will be starting the assembly process in the morning.
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And now some of our North side valley install.
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Several more of todays work.
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Finishing up with the last three.
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walter...... you know...it really is inspiring watching the slate go on
i could do that.... i've watched Barry & you..... i've got a lot of the toolshow much for a square of the slate you're using on this job ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
This green is $400 a sq.
It's from Sheldon Slate
Mike,
Post a picture of your slate tools. I'd enjoy seeing what you have.
If you ever need some advice on any aspect of an upcoming job, I'd be very pleased to help.
Here are some of my hammers.
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I think Steven King could build a story around that nest of slaters hammers.;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
We re slated his personal Library a couple years ago.
It's the white Mansard next door to his home on West Boadway.
ok... i don't have a lot of the tools... i have SOME tools
a slater's thief and a guillotine... and a gas powered lift
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a small stash of slate
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and a sample of the typical
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but you could sell me one of your hammers and then i'd be good to go , right ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/27/2008 10:21 am ET by MikeSmith
Edited 3/27/2008 10:21 am ET by MikeSmith
Edited 3/27/2008 10:22 am ET by MikeSmith
Nice looking stash.
I just bought another Belden hammer today from a group shop. Actually the mason who built the chimney on the house here saw it a week ago and then picked it up for me today.
You can borrow and use one any time you want Mike, but i collect them and would never consider selling one. You're welcome to use it as long as you like.
More Tulikivi pics and more roof pics after I consume mass quantities of grub.
Walter
Mike,
Looks like a nice older Stortz slate ripper, and a great old Parsons Bros. cutter from the Penn. slate belt. Both nice items.
Putting up a couple shots of the Cor- A - Vent ridge we'll be using showing the step flashing of 16 oz. copper and our cap slates
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Here are a few more of our roof work.
These show marking and cutting the valley slates. I prefer cutting on the face side of only valley cuts. Everything else is cut from the back to leave a ragged or chamfered edge. My logic for face cuts on these slates stems from the less turbulence from the water flowing down these , and therefore less erosion / corrosion to the copper valleys.
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Why do you not use the Grace in the valley?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Paul,
The first sheet of valley copper is 8' long locked onto the drip edge, so any backup would need to be way up the roof. It's not feasible for ice damming to occur that far up the roof.
I use 30 lb. felt creased down the center as padding from nailsheads, and any other small debris that might telegraph thru the copper sheet. Even though it's been swept by a gloved hand, there will invariably be some small boggers that defy detection.
I've put in lots of open slate valleys this way and never had a callback.
If I were to do a closed valley with step flashing for each course, then I would Grace it.
Notice the Grace is bonded to the valley, an inch short of the exposure line.
I noticed that edge seal after I wrote the Q. I think it showed in the next post
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Wow, look at all the custom pieces! Keep that camera hopping, now you've got roof work and inside work to keep us updated on.
jt8
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."-- Mark Twain
I really enjoy seeing the roof details close up.The Tulikivi was assembled dry before shipment, now it's a puzzle to put back together.
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Edited 3/26/2008 8:37 pm ET by HIRLAS
Good evening. I'm one of the many who lurk in the background here at breaktime. Just a quick question:I was wondering what the advantages / disadvantages of a Tulikivi fireplace were compared to a Rumsford fireplace. Or are they not even in the same category.Cheers, - T
Not even the same category. Tulikivi is like a Russian/Finnish fireplace, with chambers the smoke travels through to exchange all of its heat with the soapstone surround. One or two hot fires a day and it will heat a house.
At least that's what I've heard.
was wondering what the advantages / disadvantages of a Tulikivi fireplace were compared to a Rumsford fireplace.
Maybe someone with more experience in the topic will happen along, but my understanding of a Rumsford fireplace is that it is designed to reflect more heat into the room than a conventional fireplace. As such I suppose it would be an improvement over a conventional fireplace, but I would still rather have a wood stove.
On the other hand, a Tulikivi is a brand name of masonry heater/fireplace. As Mike has already mentioned, it snakes the exhaust through chambers extracting as much heat as possible. A masonry heater uses massive amounts of brick/stone/masonry to absorb all the heat, which it then releases to the room over the next several hours.
As such, the well designed masonry heater would be FAR superior to a Rumsford in performance. If I had the room for it and the $$, I would get a masonry heater over a wood stove. Unlike a wood stove which you have to keep stoking throughout the day, with a masonry heater, you burn one or two hot fires a day and it heats up the masonry...and then slowly releases the heat throughout the day.
And clever masonry heater designers can include things such as ovens, heated benches, etc.jt8
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."-- Mark Twain
John,
I took a lot of the Tulikivi in progress today, but I'm going to wait til morning to resize and post them.
Too tuckered out tonite. Time for a hot bath and my rubber duckys.
Walter
Here are a few of the assembly process for this soapstone unit.
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The next series of the install.
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Now for the last batch of these Tulikivi install photos for today.
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Walter
This thread is pretty cool. I'm probably never going to have a slate roof or a Tulikivi fire box(or whatever there called) but they're both fun to see going together.
BTW, how do they stick those pieces of soapstone together?
Doug
Doug,
They're held in place with clips and a really fine mortar of soapstone dust and i believe they said silica sand.
I'm hoping one of the guys installing it will chip in with more info.
That's cool, I've never seen a Tulikivi being assembled.
That sure is turning out to be a neat house. Timber frame, sips, radiant, slate roof, masonry heater. jt8
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."-- Mark Twain
I thought people would like seeing a " Fine Homebuilding " in progress.
Thanks for all the great photos. The stove is amazing, it's complexity.
I left a point and shoot with the guys installing. They will be there all weekend finishing the work.
Monday nite I'll bring home the memory card and put more pics up.
Roofers had to take a powder today.
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Man, it's as nasty up there as it is down here.
I'm enjoying your slating pics a lot, might have some repair work for you in Yarmouth if you're interested (I'll buy lunch;-), but seeing the Tulikivi go together is very interesting too. I've read a lot about them but never seen one assembled. I want one! Along with a stone roof.
Mike,
Yes I'd be happy to do some repairs in Yarmouth for ya. Even let you buy without flipping !!!
I'd never seen one being put together either -- I think I've only seen one in person in real time anyway.
Way too slippery today to put on slate. Perma Felt and a 2" March snow on a 12/ 12 are not compatible.
Thanks for checking in with us.
Walter
Walter,Thanx for sharing the soapstone heater system. So it is more of a grout than a mortar and the clips align the pieces. Your threads are what Fine Homebuilding is all about. Keep up the good work.Chuck S.live, work, build, ...better with wood
I'm just the mild mannered reporter for most of this thread. I knew I was excited to see this fine piece of engineering being put together -- so when we came down for a break-- shot a few pictures.
Really nice guys doing the install -- very patient with all our questions, a treat to work with.
As always you're way more kind than is deserved , but I do appreciate your input and encouragement.
One of the guys has signed up for an account here and will hopefully expound on the mortar and other questions.
Best regards, Walter
Greetings, I'm one of the installers of the Tuli Kivi (pronounced tulee keevee) that you've been seeing pictures of. I'm happy to answer any questions. Also feel free to check out our informative company website http://www.mainemasonrystove.com
The mortar that we use is a mixture of soapstone dust and waterglass (sodium silicate). Your typical wet mix refractory mortar (flue goo etc.) is a mix of waterglass and fireclay. This mix handles more like a glue than a mortar and typical joint size is less than 2mm. Also the exterior stones are mechanically fastened with clips and splines. This positve connection allows a masonry structure to be built without bonding (which is to say a one over two pattern seen in brick, block, and stonework.) Our heaters frequently exhibit vertical joins that run from bottom to top.
I'll check in for a few days if anyone has any ??s. --Morten
Morten,
Thanx for the info. I'll stay tuned.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Here's a pic of the connector and a couple of the progress. Not as nice as Slateman's, but I only had my phone camera handy.I'm fortunate to be able to get a Tulikivi, and a stone roof is just my way of not having to buy another one in thirty years while providing the timber frame the longevity it deserves.There are other ways to achieve a masonry heater which may be less expensive, more varied in design, and made with local materials. I happen to like soapstone and Tulikivi style.
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Edited 3/28/2008 10:50 pm ET by HIRLAS
I think my Sony is there if you want to shoot some others.
The Sony was there when you left, but they hocked it to buy beer."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Eddie,
You gonna hire me to come down and ram rod that slate job for ya??
We don't need another episode like the CMU columns.
Walter
What is that groove on top of all the pieces?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
There are metal splines in those grooves.
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Edited 3/29/2008 9:35 am ET by HIRLAS
Paul,
Here's a link to the lighting we talked about.
http://www.rejuvenation.com/
Walter
Thanks to you and Walter for sharing all this with us.Is that heater designed to downdraft before entering the flue?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Morty,
Hope you guys had a good day there. Not as many questions for you as I would have thought !
I guess other folks see these more often than I have.
You'll probably be finished up before we're back there on Monday. Hope we'll work on another home together.
I'll keep some slate hammers in the truck just in case we meet up. I'd love to see you juggle 5 or 6 of them !!
Best regards, Walter
Walter -- Thanks for the good company on the job. Steve and John made good use of the cribbage board today while Andy and I finished the heater. Snapped some good photos w/your sony. John took it home (or to a nearby pawn shop where you should be able to recover it at a reasonable price.) --Morty
Morty,
Thanks a lot. I'll get the camera back today I hope and post a bunch more tonite of the rest of the install.
Thanks for your help here and all our questions at the site !
Looking forward to the next time.
Walter
Morty,
Just got the camera back from the pawn man.
Going to resize some photos tonite and post a bunch after i eat
Thanks again for taking a bunch of pictures. I think people will enjoy seeing the work you guys put out.
Walter
and post a bunch after i eat
Just curious. What's theslateman having for dinner? Bon appetit.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
Talapia, salad and some rice.
Thank you Grant - I'll resize some later and post them.
I wasn;t sure folks were still following along.
Sphere needs one of these units !!!
shrimp mozambique toniteMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Man you guys are eating good in the neighborhood tonight !!
Kielbasa and kraut.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Edited 4/1/2008 6:47 pm ET by calvin
Guess Joyce won't be needing any kisses later !!!
Man, you've not even met the woman and you remember her name. You are one Brittanica right there.
Now tell me. What woman wouldn't want kisses later? Considering the garlic was universally ingested.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Cal,
I also remember we haven't seen any photos from the star Diner yet either !!!!!!
Walter I'm sure you're plenty kissable - even with kraut breath !!
Heres some more shots of the Tuli Kivi being put together last weekend.
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Morty,
Thank you for all the pictures you guys took.
I really enjoyed seeing how it all went together even if I did have to get the Sony out of hock !!
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Some more--- almost finished up.
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Inj the second picture of post 514 it looks like he is glueing the pieces together.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Edited 4/1/2008 8:07 pm ET by FastEddie
I don't know what to do about the diner. The girls are damn nice, but I don't know their proclivities to being internet "Stars". I suppose I could ask.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Just don't ask to take pictures of their proclivities. ;-)
We're only horsing around anyway cal.
Don't take us seriously.
we aren't we want pictures
The last of the Tuli Kivi pictures.
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How much does a product like that cost?
I don't know the answer to that question -- but you could try Mainemasonrystove.com or the Tulikivi site for more info.
thanks i tried both but no pricing
Walter,
Thanx for the update.
I bake Tuscan bread (or some other type, mostly Tuscan) every Sunday. Wish I had that set up.
Thanx for this thread. Most BT'ers have no clue the time and effort it takes to do a thread with imbedded pictures.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Chuck,
Thanks again. This oven looks great and the whole unit is a piece of art.
Gonna share more from the addition soon I hope !!
Walter
Most of the units we install run between $10,000 and $30,000 installed. This does not include the base or chimney. This one is a pretty big heavy unit with a pile of features. Pretty expensive compared to a woodstove; pretty economical compared to a custom fireplace. Of course if you want to spend more we have custom units appropriate for palaces for $60,000 and up. --Morty
Thank you. Very nice!
what is the gasketing material ? in the goode olde days it would have been an asbestos wool
what is it made of today ?
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Ah yes, We all long for the days of asbestos and lead paint. A simpler happier time.
The gasketing material is a ceramic fiber insulation. Similar to high temp mineral fiber. This stuff is installed between the core of the heater and the exterior wall to isolate the core for movement due to heat expansion. Nowhere does the core bond to the outside wall because the intense heat inside can cause the inner stone to grow. This is a standard across all types of masonry heaters to keep the outsides from cracking. --Morten
I've been known to give a high number for the temperature in the burn chamber. You have an idea that's more than the educated 20 yrs ago guess?
thanksA Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
1500 degrees fareinheight is what is suggested for a real healthy clean burn. Part of the reason some of those wretched backyard boilers are so stinky: low combustion temp. --Morten
Thank you, I haven't been exagerating.
Clean chimney temp.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Welcome to BT. Your knowledge of the ways of wood burning heaters will be very helpful to many here.
I wonder if you have the time to answer a few basic questions? There's been a great many discussions about burning wood for heat and hot water on this board. I'm currently working on the design of my next home so I'd really appreciate your advice.
Do you have any favorites types and/or brands of modestly priced stoves, say $2K or less? What do you consider to be the essential ingredients of a proper wood stove and it's installation?
By the way, my new home will be super-insulated, about twenty-five hundred sqft, three stories and not dependent on wood for heat. But I'd like to be able to use wood as a sole heat source, whenever it's necessary or desireable.
I think this description is very similar to what many of us are looking for in a house and heating system.
Impressive. It is much larger than I had imagined. What is that white cloth, and what is its function?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Eddie,
I believe it's a gasketing material, but if you addressed it to MMstove he could give you the real answer.
As to the glueing-- Morty covered that in a previous post. It's a mix of waterglass and powdered soapstone applied quite thin -- less than 2 mm he said.
Walter
Whats happening with your slate job??
Walter,Pardon my ignorance and/or inability to better follow the photos, but where/how does this Tulkivi connect to the chimney?lek
This heater connects to the Chimney at the base through a heavy guage steel damper. The flue pattern within the heater sends the gases to the top and then all the way back down to the base before the chimney connection. --Morten
Thanks. That is what I was getting at with wondering if this was designed to use a downdraft pattern when I saw the baffles
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Man, soapstone and doug fir--two of my favorite materials in the world--thanks for the pics....
Mike,
Thanks for taking the time to follow along.
Walter
hold on, so why do you have a fireplace next to a fireplace?
Can you hold the laser level while I shave?
That's "just" a fire box. The arch was the brick mason's idea--it reflects the arcs in the Tulikivi and supports the soapstone slabs above. In retrospect, a more shallow bucket, and less of a box, might have looked better next to the mass of soaptone, but would not hold enough wood for typical winter-time use; the alternative would have been a messy pile of wood spilling out of a smaller box and onto the floor.The pic of the small fire is a tease. The stove needs to rest for several days with air passing through, then go through several days of small smudges before it can be expected to start taking a lot of heat.
Well, here's hoping that the cold weather holds on for a bit longer up there so that you have time to let it cure and still be able to really fire 'er up.jt8
"If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles." -- Doug Larson
I don't know what to do about the diner. The girls are damn nice, but I don't know their proclivities to being internet "Stars". I suppose I could ask.
ASK.
please?
I suppose I could ask.
come on Calvin, you post pictures of the people at the fests and I bet you didn't ask their permission if you could post them!
Lets have the pictures already - no more stalling
Doug
Paul, one of those photos show the opening in the chimney-right at the bottom. See the round holes-maybe 4'' in the chanels on the bottom-cleanouts if it's the same as mine. There'll be some round plugs out front/side that allow you into that heat chamber-to suck out the ash that makes it's way down there. Not directly connected to the firebox.
edit: I'm gonna let the soapstone guys explain it. It appears that that is the ash dump down there. Mine has no opening out of the ash box except for the door.
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A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Edited 3/29/2008 4:32 pm ET by calvin
Yeah. You got it right the round holes iin the ash dump are cleanout ports for vaccuuming out accumulated fly ash (an annual chore.) They receive a soapstone plug that seals them shut. Most heaters have the cleanouts on the outside. Some parts of this specific heater model (TLU 2480 with custom bench set) make it more convenient to locate these ports inside the heater. -- Morten
Thanks morton.
We've got the ............13 or 16 something-a corner unit...tho not put in the corner.
Am I wrong in thinking our chimney is clean after 19 seasons? A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Morty,
Thanks for finding the thread and adding to it.
Just looked at the pics Hirlas put on -- looking sweet!
I may be down today if the snow isn't too slippery.
Walter
Some more slating pictures again -- actually finishing up the lead counterflashing on the chimney.
The front piece has been hemmed. The side pieces were left long during the chimney building. The dead blow mallet and the hand anvil are used to get the lead flattened back out then carefully cut with a 99E hand jointer so that the lead can duck down behind the slates abutting the copper step flashing below.
Sika Flex sealant will be used sparingly behind so that the wind doesn't wreck havoc with the lead.
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The last of this bunch showing getting the lead fitted.
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Very nicely detailed photos and descriptions, not to mention the good old fashioned methods.
It's a pleasant contemplation, appreciating how it was done by past craftsmen, knowing how long many of their jobs have provided good shelter. Gives me inspiration to think more in those terms. Feels good too.
Thanks, Peter
Edited 4/3/2008 8:51 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Peter,
Thanks for sharing those sentiments. Thats exactly the way I approach my work , learning from those who came before us, and trying to improve tools and techniques where possible.
Glad that people enjoy seeing old tech that still works to this day.
Walter
Walter I don't understand what I am seeing. Looks like the lead ir let into the mortar joints of the chimney, then cut off flosh with the top of the slate. But I don't see any flashing from under the slate goign up the chimney. I'm missing something."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I think you may have missed this post.http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=99268.242Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Yep, missed the copper. But I still wonder why the lead doesn't turn out on top of the slate.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Edited 4/3/2008 1:06 pm ET by FastEddie
I still wonder why the lead doesn't turn out on top of the slate.
What purpose do think that would serve? Not being a smartass - just curious.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
I still wonder why the lead doesn't turn out on top of the slate.
What purpose do think that would serve? Not being a smartass - just curious
I was wondering the same thing....in the photo it looks like water running down off the lead will fall in that small gap between the slate and the chimney. Granted, the copper flashing underneath will prevent leaks but from a layman's point of view it would seem that leaving the lead a little longer at the bottom would have added a little more belt-and-suspenders protection for no additional effort.
from a layman's point of view it would seem that leaving the lead a little longer at the bottom would have added a little more belt-and-suspenders protection for no additional effort.
Envision the high side of the chimney flashing. Water coming down the roof from above the chimney hits the back flashing and turns the corner and would run right under the lead laying on the slate carrying leaves and other debris which would in turn hold moisture under the lead which would freeze and damage the slate. Plus it would look like hell.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
Grant,
Thanks for keeping these guys straight while I was down laying more slates.
feels good to be back in the saddle again after 5 months laying around.
Walter
Stuart,
Grant has pointed out why that wouldn't be correct.
Besides being unsightly it would do just the opposite of what you would like to see done.
Lead is very soft so water flowing down the roof would quickly wear thru it if done as you pointed out. Lead shouldn't be used for base flashings, but only counter flashings.
Walter
Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense.
Stuart,
Thank you for following our work.
I hope I didn't sound harsh -- it was certainly not intended and hope you didn't take my comments that way.
Best regards, Walter
more to finish up our progress today.
One picture shows my acetylene torch outfit with soldering iron attachment.
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Walter,
Do you ever still use the coal fired irons?
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Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Chuck,
Yes I do. I own lots and lots of them with different shapes and weights.
Depending on what my task at hand is determines which I choose.
Here I was soldering the tops of the valleys as they intersect shots on that tom. nite.
Doing chimney pans or other ground related tasks I'll use propane plumbers furnace with hand irons. For lock seamed flat panel roofing I use the B tank set up. Any proximity to walls or flammables I use the hand irons.
Walter
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LOL, I thought you were about to show us a coal forge setup in the yard to heat up the irons. ;)
I've seen a TV show where the guy made a forge out of a wheelbarrow.jt8
"If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles." -- Doug Larson
John,
I try to adapt to new technologies as they pertain to an old craft -- so using coal would be applicable if you were doing a Museum exhibit.
I'm sure it would work fine, but time consuming as he**
Walter
so using coal would be applicable if you were doing a Museum exhibit.
I started out using a charcoal oven to solder. Used it for about a year until I realized I was gonna be soldering enough to invest in a propane oven. What a pain in the butt that charcoal oven was. Took about 45 minutes to get the coppers sweet and about 45 minutes to cool down enough to bring down off the roof. I'm glad those days are over.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
Grant,
I've never used a coal or charcoal burner for heating irons.
An older man who I worked with for a GC years ago was doing all the metal work on a big home, and I was re- slating the house. He had a smaller height burner than mine - that you had to fill with white gas. It worked great , but you had to have something to set it on so that you didn't have to bend over all the time.
The propane plumbers furnace I use sits up nicely so that the irons are easy to grab either on the ground at the bench or while its setting on staging on the roof.
Walter
Edited 4/5/2008 4:47 am ET by theslateman
I've got several propane ovens that attach to the tank with a 25' hose. Great for doing flat seam. You just move the oven with you and the tank stays put.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
Thats where I prefer the B tank set up with hose and constantly hot iron.
I use one of my hand anvils for a holder as i move around.
Grant,
Rushed out this morning and couldn't find a picture of the B tank set up for lock seam work. Found one now after searching.
Same principle as your oven - don't have to get up to reach the iron.
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Walter,
Where do you get all them nifty awls I keep seeing in your pics? I like ones that can be hammered in like you do, I keep busting handles on the stanly's I have and one Malco(?) cracked recently.
Thanks.
Is that a sievert head on the tank hose? I notice they keep loosening up heating and cooling..but thats to be expected with the swivel feature I s'pose. I keep a lefthanded metric adjustable wrench in my pouch..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
Duane,
Theres a local heating supply place nearby that I buy them from.
After my slate hammer, 99E hand jointer, it's my favorite tool. You don't realize how many tasks they're good for until you have at least three in your pouch at all times.
My torch/iron set up runs off acetylene and is purchased from ASCO in New Jersey. Thats Acetylene Supply Co.
Until you use the B tank set up burning acetylene for heat you won't believe the difference in solder flow.
Walter
Is there a brand name on them I can google? I also hve some Japanese wood handled socket type awls, too soft for anything like rough treatment.
I don't solder enough to get a new rig, but was curious if it was the same head. Do you run straight acetylene? I'd think that would be sooty? I have used mapp on my siervert, wooo-heee, almost too hot.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
I'll look in the truck later when the sun comes up for a brand name.
Yes exactly like a heating persons tank - acetylene only. It's only sooty when turned down really low.
Duane,
Just looked at ABC Supply on line.
They have the same ones there. Malco A1 is the size I like.
Thanks, I never saw them AT ABC, and I always wind up cruising the shelves when I am there..gonna have to ask at the counter next trip.
I broke the tip off the slate ripper I bought from you, welded it back on, but haven't had a chance to see if my weld holds yet. That was a first. Fishing cedar out from under a dormer soffit/fascia and 'toink' just snapped it.
Tapco rep was at Norandex two weeks ago..free lunch day. I got my brake tuned up for free and a new handle that was missin, for not being a roofer/sider full time, my tools sure seem to appear like I am, I learned a new trick on a portable brake to make a hem as good as the big monsters, there are two pivot locations on the swing jaw..ya pull it forward for a tight as heck hem. 6 other guys there some siding for 30 yrs, also never knew that.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
I believe that hemming like that is only on the Tapco brakes.
Didn't you read your manual when you bought the brake?
Bought it used, no manual. That explains that huh? LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
Go ahead and admit that you would not have read the manual even if you had it."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Ya got me dead to rights. I sometimes speed read em, but mostly just chuck em in a drawer in the shop.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
We're almost finished with the shorter slates at the ridge of the main roof,flashings are all cut -- ready for the vent and slates.
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We're going to slate up the two sides of the valleys on the dormer sides next and then cap this small ridge.
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looking great!! I've been wondering how you cap with slate, and I can't wait to see the pics how.
There's enough youth in this world, how 'bout a fountain of SMART??!!
Andy,
Thanks for looking in on our progress.
You might have plenty of slate roofed houses in Mass. near where you live. Later on you might want to repair a few.
Walter
I just spent the last hour or so perusing the Jenkins slate forum.
Bwahahaha.
Can't we all just get along?http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
Grant,
About two weeks ago a young fellow got a hair across it pretty badly with me as the whipping boy.
Didn't care for my use of Grace, my drip edge technique, etc.. He got really nasty and vitriolic towards me. I e mailed Joe to act as Moderator and he deleted some of the worst ones.
He hadn't posted in a while, but I think I'll check in prior to posting this now.
Joe might have suspended his privledges.
Walter
pretty day for a change.Wasn't it a nice one to be out and up?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hi Slate - just wanted to let you know you have yet one more groupie. I didn't find this thread till yesterday and so far have browsed through just looking at the photos. All I can say is "Awesome!". Now I'll spend the next couple or three days actually reading, especially the how-to stuff.
A client once said to me "When you love your job you never have to work for a living". Well, that may be an exageration, as there are always aspects of the job we enjoy more or less than other aspects. But your passion for your craft really shines through. You must be one happy camper doing what you're doing. Thanks for sharing it.
:)--------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
Ted,
I'm glad you've found this thread. I was in awe of the timber work and the Tuli Kivi masonry unit myself.Glad I was able to see those facets being done.
Thanks for the most kind words !! That helps ease those sore muscles getting large ego boosts like that !!
Best regards, Walter
Paul,
We get about a dozen days a year that are that pleasant for roof work. Nice temps, slight breeze, low humidity, no insects , bright skies.
Nice view from your place! Is that Vinalhaven or North Haven in the distance ??
That in the near right would be Job's island. The lump far off is some other small one. North Haven is further around to the left behind that point there. This orientation is acutally looking SSW
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I love the shadows the slates cast in this picView Image
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
If I know slate at all, thats not shadow, it's wet. Frost melt.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
It's only April. You think the hearty folks of Maine have the luxury of above freezing temperatures already?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Sphere,
Good guess , but not quite correct.
we did have lots of frost and frozen water between the flat piles of slates , but that was taken on the South side around 3:30 yesterday. Those are just shadows.
Walter
Shows what I know..LOL
Hell of a sun angle to make such a craggy sight!
Glad it's going well for ya, nothing like a well planned, well executed job.
I'll shut up now and go back to router-ing.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
we welcome the feedback -- it was a good guess.
Don't go away mad !!!<g>
We had a nice sunny day close to 50 degrees here today !!
We worked getting the dormer sides of the valleys up to the ridge height.
Notice the board spacers keeping our homemade brackets from damaging the valley slates.
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We worked up to the ridge here and added a 3.5" piece of sheathing board to each side to receive the cap slates.
There is no air coming in the bottom here so we're capping it conventionally.
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Now to finish up for todays work . We're capping with slate caps with 16 oz. copper step flashing between each pair of caps.
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finally, my question of how to cap is answered. intersting... so, do you have to caulk beteen the two cap slates?
There's enough youth in this world, how 'bout a fountain of SMART??!!
Andy,
The step flashing acts as the water barrier so no -- no caulking is required.
there is a gun there with Sika Flex in it a polyurethane caulk which I thought I might use just to spot the slate caps underneath to aid in securing them.
Walter
The clipped cornes at the rake are so sweet i'm going to do that on the next asphalt shingle job i have, considering your thread is the closest i'm ever going to get to actual slate.
I think a lot of folks like that detail.
As much as I'd like to take credit for it's design --I can't. When I salvaged several Monson slate roofs in Dexter, Me. for the roof of my own house , the rake slates had this feature. I figured that to be true to the recycling of these fine specimens , I should replicate that rake cut.
Hope you're healing up better each day !1
Walter
Great thread, roof and workmanship...
I do have one question regarding the ridge.
It appears that the copper flashing does not cover the board completely and also the board is not protected with any material (tar paper, grace etc.). It would appear that this might be a less than ideal situation? Just asking...
Thanks for being the one to ask . I noticed that as well and wondered.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Walter,Me 3!I was wondering if a composite could be used. I have never had much luck with pine or spruce that is not completely protected.Once again the clipped corners really are great looking.Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
I was wondering back at the lath that is spacing up the last two rows of slate, why it wasn't treated or a rot-resistant wood. That ridge cap is *mitered*, though...pretty impressive for a country place. <G>
Splinter,
If it were required I would have done it.
Walter
Chuck,
Look at 100 year old boards with no flashing and how they have held up a few posts hence.
I wouldn't dream of using treated or composites here --it would be totally unnecessary.
Walter
Dove,
Heres my response
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=99268.662
I may have missed it...
but do you have a detailed build up of this ridge in detail???
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Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=99268.347
I did miss that post...
thanks...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Walter,Thanx for the explaination and the pics of the near century-old hip.Chuck S.live, work, build, ...better with wood
Chuck,
Hard day today, capping the main house and breaking down. Hope I didn't come across as too testy earlier .
Here are some of our main roof ventilated ridge. Cor-A-Vent used to promote air flow ,then copper and slate caps -- with a little Sikaflex to help grab a bit.
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More of our capping session today.
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A few more before I retire for the nite.
Capping and breaking down the roof.
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why the clipped corners???
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Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Imerc,
It's all been spelled out at length further back.
Aesthetics, less tail for wind grab, felt like it .
Walter
I looked at the pic with the skylight and had an optical illusion that the edge was lilting up....those clipped corners. What an accomplishment, Walter. You deserve a day off, maybe two.
I've been really wondering how the whole house is looking. I don't know if you are done there, but if you go back, and if the owner doesn't mind, can you snap a few of all the elevations? I'm just sure the whole place is as beautiful as your roof and i want some eye candy, s'il vous plait. <curtsey>
Colleen,
We'll get some later when all the siding is completed and that pipe staging is down.
Thanks for all the kind words again.
I've got to go offload a heap of rigging this morning so we can complete the removal process.
Hope you're feeling better every day !!
Walter
An astounding job, incredibly well done! I've been amazed at the attention to detail and the care that has gone into putting up this roof. The random-width tiles don't let the eye find a pattern; gives the effect of a solid mass or skin.I hope you have a picture of the north and west ridge edges with that sweet little copper fold-down. People will be appreciating this roof long after this electronic forum has disappeared.-Paul
Is there any chance of getting some whole-house images from you or anyone? I feel like i've seen the tail, the trunk, the tusk...it would surely please to put the picture together.
Paul,
It is an incredible treat to work for a customer as highly appreciative as you.
I was apprehensive on day one when I took the liberty of photographing and posting pics of your truly fine home in it's infancy -- and then John asked me to send a link to you !! But it couldn't have been more rewarding !!
You've been most gracious about letting the world see a wonderful structure being put together with all the fine workmanship on many fronts.
I thank you and John very much for the opportunity to attempt this project.
I wished every client was as easy to work for and as quick with the praise as you -- it's made this job most pleasureable.
Very best regards, Walter
I guess this is a general roofing question, but how to put up and pull down the staging so it doesn't leave holes in the finished roof?
Edited 4/9/2008 9:38 pm ET by JoshRountree
Josh,
In some of the pictures posted you can see our wooden brackets and the copper tabs that are nailed into the roof above the tops of the slates.
We simply slate over the "tabs" and when breaking down the roof , remove our planks from the brackets -- then use a sheetrock knife to score the copper at the exposure line. While holding down on the slate you bend the bracket up and down to snap the tab.
Walter
Walter,
No offence taken.
The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Chuck,
I was quite tired when I arrived at the hacienda last nite from tearing down the roof and making a vented ridge assembly come together . I realized my responses were not as diplomatic as might have been --so to you , faulted, and others please accept my apologies for snapping a bit.
The step flashings only need to cover the gap between the slates, then it's transferred to the underlying slate to conduct it down beyond the edge of the wooden spacer. Each cap slate has a 2" end lap 7" exposure on a 16" slate so no chance of the board seeing any water.
Best regards, Walter
"The step flashings only need to cover the gap between the slates, then it's transferred to the underlying slate to conduct it down beyond the edge of the wooden spacer. "
Walter,
Thanks for the response and no offense was taken. You just answered the original thrust of my question. It appeared that the step flashing was too narrow "to conduct it down beyond the edge of the wooden spacer." Again, fabolous work.
Faulted
Faulted,
thanks, my tiredness led to my being a little snippy , but I'm nearly done now and feeling really good about the project.
the owner is happy with our work and that's very important to us.
Walter
Winding down the capping, heres our method for affixing the end cap.
2.5" copper nail down thru, covered with a double hemmed strap of 16 oz. bent to hold the bottoms of the cap slates , then a bit of Sikaflex to hold it for wiggling .
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Colleen,
Here are some of us winding down and the structure.
They haven't finished the siding yet , but I'll be back to snap some more before the end.
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Last set for tonite.
Getting ready to pull another load of rigging out of Dodge.
Making some copper caps for the deck supports.
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Walter,
I've been watching this thread silently, but with great interest. It's always the first think I look for on BT. What a showcase project... a Benson frame, a Tulikivi, and your beautiful slate roof, all in the great state of Maine! Thank you for taking the time to share your experience and craftsmanship with us!
Pete
Pete,
Thank you very much.
Everyone is being more kind than need be -- we did the job at hand as skillfully as we could. Not unlike every day for most Breaktimers -- maybe a different medium is all.
Thanks for following the process.
Walter
Pete,
Just looked at your profile and saw you're building in Boothbay !!
Congrats on being located in one of Maines prettiest locations.
Walter
Amazing work!! are you doing the lower roof in slate too?
There's enough youth in this world, how 'bout a fountain of SMART??!!
Andy,
Thank you very much. Glad you've followed along.
Walter
Hey Walter -- Don't pack up and leave just yet -- you still got that lower roof to do!
;-)
Gorgious stuff!
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Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike,
I've got a few loose ends - copper cylinder rolled for the stack pipe, returns to cap on the dormerside, and one more deck beam copper cap.
The balance of the roofing will be a standing seam roof done by a friend from Downstate a bit.
I'll ask John to take some photos of that as well.
Thanks for being along for the duration.
Walter
Wow! It appears a lot of elves have been very busy all over that place! I love the subtle curve in the top window.
Will you be doing the lower roof as well? That one looks walkable, so i guess you don't need the staging if you do.
The lower roof, garage and walk thru will be done by a friend from a ways off , but still a Mainah -- with standing seam.
Heres some of the " elves " way up on high !!
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Edited 4/11/2008 4:37 am ET by theslateman
Thanks for the detail of how the window goes in, along with the Cedarbreather (or whatever that is), too. I'm a little surprised at the face nailing on the claps, though.
What the he** are you doing up at quarter to three!!!
Having my last cup of tea and welcoming all you earlybirds. Aren't you happy i'm leaving the seat warm for ya?
You getting up early or hitting the hay late ???
'Morning, Walter! I was hitting the hay at my normal time as befits my occupation as a gainfully unemployed person. <g> I wish Mother Nature wouldn't be such a wastrel about spending sunlight in the early part of the day before i'm functional, though.
We always face nail claps in New England, and always have.
Maybe not all houses all the time, but it's pretty much standard practice. If you blind-nailed them the moisture cycles would make the bottoms curl out.
It does work on Hardiplank though.
and the face nail has to be high enough to clear the top of the clap underneath...
which means there is ONLY one row of nails in a clap.. so the clap can expand and contract without splitting
i think they figured this out in New England around 1650 or so.... at least we got claps dating back to that still holding upMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
i think they figured this out in New England around 1650 or so
They probably learned that in the weekend seminars "Piffin and This New House"."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Well, i've just gone on an extended Google about clapboards and nailing. The National Park Service suggests nailing close to the top and bottom to avoid the nail splitting the board in the middle, while Creative Homeowner drawing shows face nailing through both boards, but the text and photos show blind nailing. Most of the sites, especially the NE US ones, concur with your and Mike Smith's explanation, though.
I've seen face-nailed drop-lap around here, but the clap siding, at least the newer stuff i've seen, is blind-nailed, esp if it's that narrow. I may need to get out more...
Thanks for the reply and for inspiring my research mission!
I'll vote for getting out more !!!
Even though Mike and Mike suggest nailing thru only the clapboard you're nailing i. e. high enough to miss the underlying one --- I'll bet 80% of all the claps in Me. are not nailed that way.
I've done lots of repairs to older homes and demo'ed at least a dozen structures totally that were sided with them -- and not once did I see that detail.
Walter
Well, don't leave me hanging like that! How do you normally see the claps nailed?I've now been researching the oldest clapboards in America, per Mike Smith's post to me. Some lady in Ohio claimed to have the oldest clapboard house, though i haven't found a date yet. An article i read on residing a house in Maine showed that clap siding has already been replaced completely once before, as evidenced by old nail holes. The idea of four-century old claps still being useful, as Mike contends, sends my Frenchy-exaggeration-meter soaring! <G>
Colleen,
There are some homes in New England with extremely old clapboards , but they are not the norm.
Lots of places are detailed poorly , leading to early failure, and subsequent replacement. Most folks nail an inch or so from the butt -- nailing thru both the first and lower clap.
I built in 1990 and used CVG cedar claps nailed so as not to hit the one below , but thats the only one I know of.
Check out the radially sawn ones done here in Me. if you're still in research mode !!
One of the things i learned from my reading is that paint lasts much better if the raw wood is treated first with a clear, paintable, water-repellant. Apparently there's research documenting it from Purdue, IIRC. I see nothing but Hardie in my own future, frankly, having once shorn a Victorian of all her old coats and repainted, but it's a great tip for restoration work and trim.
Radially sawn...are you talking about the saw that works on a log mounted between centers and rotated for each clap?
Colleen,
Yes those claps should theoretically have a longer life span.
Here are two pictures I took today -- part of the 30 I took of this roof while working up an estimate -- these show dormer claps and their nailing pattern.
Now it's off for Indian food with my bride !!
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Will you be stripping the paint as well as fixing the hip? <G> Unbelievable...
I'm no expert, but shouldn't the claps be left higher off the roof and that last nail has got to be perfing the flashing...? Do you know how old that building is?
Indian food in Maine?!? I guess it's been a long time since i strapped on a bib and tackled a lobster in Kittery...
Edited 4/12/2008 6:15 pm by splintergroupie
There is a huge amount of work to do to the roof of that house.
Yes the claps are closer to the roof than I would install them -- I use a 3/4 " board laid on the roof as spacer fit to that and make sure to prime the cut well.
It was built in 1912 after the great Bangor Fire of 1911.
Same house as the hanging chimney thread.
Indian food was great !!
I've read that thread, but i'm still looking up terminology: cribbed chimneys, through flashing, etc.
As Ashleigh Brilliant wrote: "There's been an enormous increase in the number of things i know nothing about."
That is brilliant !!!
"Will you be stripping the paint as well as fixing the hip? <G> Unbelievable..."LOL, they don't kill painters like they used to.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Paul,
If you're ever near the old school out there thats being talked about being renovated -- snap a picture of the roof and post it please.
Theres talk that they might want it relaid.
Thank you, Walter
You mean on my island?I probably have some pictures of it already, but can shoot new ones soon. working down that way this week.The roof on is probably about a 16/12 and is asbestos right now. It is definitely due. I am currently working on another place that has the same shingles and is getting due. Problem there is that the owner wants to enjoy his summers with no work being done,and it faces NW so working there in winter is wicked cold and windy. I am attaching that one, but took a quick look and don't see where I have school photos so I'll shoot some of it tomorrow.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Paul,
Some folks have told me the school is slate !
If it's asbestos then it's time for a roof , but not relaying whats there.
Several people have wanted me to look at it -- them thinking thats it's really stone.
Thanks for the heads up.
Walter
I've heard it referred to as slates several times, but I'm pretty sure it is asbestos and that most people just don't know the difference.I'll be sure tomorrow. Probably can even pick up a few broken chips laying around on the ground under it.The walls are masonry - blasted from stone ledge right on site way back when.
Back in the fifties, the island still had 4 different small one room schools and the old widow who lived there wanted them to be able to consolidate, so she willed the place to the town for a school when she died.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Paul,
Thank you very much. Don't go to too much trouble , but if it's nearby I would be most appreciative.
Walter
I looked up the asbestos shingles on the web, since i hadn't heard of man-made imitations of slates. Here's a good site with pics of what were also called "Transite" shingles, if anyone is curious.
This reminds me of something i was musing about on account of this thread, making a poor-woman's 'slate' roof of Hardieplank cut into lengths, installed vertically. There are a few offcuts i've used for shims outdoors and they don't seem any the worse for weather. Long pieces get floppy[er], but the short cuts are stiff enough. Hmmm....i wonder which wheel i just reinvented....
Speaking of timberframes...rendezvous'd with Jesse yesterday in Missoula, taking some of the used carpet out of his and his bride's new house off his hands - or rather, out of their dumpster, the biggest one i've personally toured - for my garden. He's such a blooming youngster to do such fine work!
be thinking about the 19 pcs. of leftover Hardieplank i have stored and the garden shed i need...
Colleen,
This months JLC has an article about using Hardie to cut into patterns for wall applications -- like fancy cut cedar Or slate <g>.
Theres no reason they couldn't be used as roof shingles too.
Walter
Glad you and River didn't run off together !!
It always happens, doesn't it, that you think of a great idea and someone's just published it?
I was thinking about Riversong a lot since you posted. I've known several people who have been adamant that the starkest circumstances have nothing to do with personal happiness. All are men, all came from privilege, and all are tremendously intelligent and well-educated, leading to near-complete inflexibility in their expectations, politics, and habits. I assume a complete immersion in actual grinding poverty as a birthright instead of an abstraction - i'm not talking about living on top ramen at college - would take the bloom off their "pain is ennobling" rose.
Still i wish he was posting, though. I liked monitoring my reactions to him.
PS: I'm sending your pen back, with slight modifications.... ;^)
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=103712.1
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Paul,
Thank you very much.
You were correct -- slate they isn't. It's time for a replacement -- but man think of the removal and disposal costs !!!
You've saved me the cost of a fact finding mission. I'll buy lunch when you're on dry land !!
Walter
out of their dumpster, the biggest one i've personally toured
Do you often take tours of dumpsters? "Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Do you often take tours of dumpsters?
I toured the Missoula dumpsters a lot and used to be able to scavenge at "Northgate Mall", the Missoula city dump. I've found piles of new maple flooring, solid maple doors, new cinder block. The Salvation Army would throw out heaps of garbage-bagged clothing they hadn't even bothered to sort...lots of new, price-tagged stuff in there and a great source of shop clothes and rags otherwise. I stopped giving to the Sally Ann after i found out that dirty little secret. The "free" ads in the newspaper were also a great source of goodies...i LOVE those old cast iron tubs!
Out here in rurality, i've scoured the neighbor's fields for old tires to stabilize my sandy soil behind the prettier block retaining walls. It cleans up their areas, saves me $$$, and they get a tickle out of helping me. Tires make good footers for outdoor walls and small tires make excellent footer forms for posts. No, i do not have any of them turned inside-out for planters, LOL!
One of the best scores so far was when i first met my late mate in Seattle in 2001. We stayed at the house of a friend of mine who lived there who knew about a boo-tique bakery with ~ten dumpsters full of perfectly good, $6/loaf bread that had been pulled from the stores that morning, garbage bagged, and tossed. By cover of night, friend David and i dumpster-dove - cleanest dumpsters i've ever been in! - tossing loaves to Ian, who stowed them in the rig. We had glorious bread for months while Ian got to tell his rellies that the poor of America are forced to get their designer bread by dumpster-diving.
Ok, ok, point made. Did you freeze the bread?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Yes, the bread was frozen the next night when we got back to MT.
David told me later the bakery put the kibosh on that. What a screaming waste of raw materials and human effort to make and cart bread around to ultimately destroy it. <shakes head>
we used to use cement shingles and tiles in FL I have started a new thread for Walter on this new subject. Look for "Is it asbestos or slate?"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
http://www.wardclapboard.com/examples.html
Radially sawn is as you describe. Better than quartersawn even. Only problem with it is the claps are only available up to 7'. I like 16 footers when I side, if possible.
Priming all around is a necessity, IMO.
Mike,
Do you start at the top and work back down while installing them ??
That ought to stir up a little lively !!
Do you start at the top and work back down while installing them ??
What, you mean some people try to work from the bottom up? What will they come up with next!
Believe it or not I did one job for a buddy outside of Boston--I helped him out as he was learning on his own house--he liked to come up with his own ways of doing things, and didn't want to hear about the "normal" way to do it. As far as he was concerned, if it's the normal way he wasn't really interested in it.
Anyway, we installed quartersawn spruce clapboards (from the Ward mill), over 1" of pink board, with no furring strips, from the top down with 3" nails.
I haven't done it that way since!
Thanks; i'd seen that link and followed the clapboard article posted, but i hadn't read about the manufacturing process of the boards themselves. They actually say 70% of the order will be 5-6' lengths, with the remainder in shorter lengths! Whole lot of scarf joints!I guess i had the procedure backwards, too. I had the impression the saw passed over the log, but the log is on a carriage passed over the saw. I guess either one beats the Abe Lincolm method (riving).
Can you imagine hand-riving clapboards? While I love dabbling in old-timey techniques I am glad for modern conveniences!
I have. At CW-burg. White Oak , and NOT fun at all after the first two. I'da hated to do SYP or any hard softwood with the "whorls", I THINK they sawed them. Pit saw. Another, Not Fun job. (G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
Should've known you would have done it!
Do you use a wedge, a froe, or what?
Both. Quarter the log with wedge and sledge ( or Gluts and maul) a glut is wood wedge, useually dogwood or something real tuff.
Eights with the same. 16's depending on size.
The froe steps up to play when the fat end is no more than about 3-4" fat, any more and it won't rive, it'll just get stuck. Ya need a riving horse , basically a forked tree locked to another forked tree as a vise.
And the biggest rule is always halves and halves of halves..if you try to rive off a side ( not in center) it'll run out on ya usually, and slim out to nothing at the far end, by keeping halves equal, you can "steer" the split by prying harder on fatter side, and get it back on track.
Hand splits were about 4'5'6' long, any more than that and you were in trouble at the far end..and yes, they would be considered radially split. The sap wood is chopped off after ya split the clap. Cuz it will rot.
Oh, green wood is much nicer to play with than a log that has been cut a long time back, and the best boles are set aside for claps and shakes. The next best logs/boles are for trim and flooring, and the next best are framing and posts.
Not uncommon for furniture makers and cabinet makers to sneak into the log yard and try to swipe the nice true logs! But back in the day, they had plenty of Mahogony for them guys.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
Cool. Must have been a blast working there! I've never been but used to love Old Sturbridge Village in Mass, same idea.
Interesting that the best logs went for siding. Guess that's still true--we get AA extra clear white cedar shingles all the time, but only see knotty white cedar for decking, never for trim.
I immediately thunk of you when they starting talking olde tyme riving claps
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You don't really believe Frenchy stretches the truth now do you !!!???
In the further interest of hyperbole.....no, of course not, never!
Walter, I actually don't nail through just the one board, I nail 1/2" or 3/4" up from the bottom just like they did on all the old houses I've torn into. Mike Smith and I have debated it many times so I didn't bother this time.
His way is the way that's recommended now by the cedar board or whatever, with wood being less than it used to, but when I've tried it I get splits where I nail so I stick with the old-fashioned way you suggest.
Mike,
Besides my own house I can't think of another nailed high enough to miss the one below.
When I built in '90 - '92 I thought that new way was proper. I guess I've missed your debates with Mike Smith on these issues.
Walter
Besides my own house I can't think of another nailed high enough to miss the one below.
There's one on Vinalhaven. Look for the one with the splits in the ends where we didn't predrill.
Circa 1996 or so.
A very big tip of the hat for taking the time and trouble to post the photos and let us follow your job. When I see your work and Mike Maines, it's a reminder to me that imho Maine has more craftsman per capita than anywhere else in the country.
Thank you for viewing the house in progress and the kind words.
Walter
Walter,
Great job!
Thank you for the effort, as it's been a real treat following the thread.lek
Lek,
Thank you .
I'm glad others have enjoyed watching a new home of this caliber come together.
Walter
Walter, great work as always, your a true craftsmanI have one question: instead of putting the copper strap over the last ridge cap at the gable end, wouldn't it be sufficient to put peel and stick under the last slate and leave the nail heads exposed. The way I see it is: there is a top slate, than peel and stick, than copper step flashing. What are changes of water getting/under that setup? Please let me know if I am wrong with my theory, I am not a roofer, just a auto body man...
Martin
Walter,
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Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
nice job
Many thanks. Walter
Chuck,
No need for bows .I wished I was half as talented as you as you are !
At that point I'd feel like a true Craftsman.
Lets see some more addition pictures when you find time.
Best regards, Walter
Walter,
This thread is one of the best ever.
Rez should put it in the whole house index.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Rez is too busy trying to find enough food stamps to trade to David to attend the Fest !!!!!!
Thank you very much .
Walter
Martin,
That might have worked just fine too. There are always other ways to accomplish the same goal -- but i liked the look and the extra support given to the two end caps where nailing was at a minimum.
Thanks again for watching and the sentiments too !!
Walter
If you realize how little water strikes the ridge , and the fact that Perma Felt wraps the ridge below the wooden cant strip , then you begin to see that our work will last as long as the slate has life in it.
When you take apart 100 year old slate roofs and see the way they used to detail this situation then it becomes clear that this work is a huge improvement and will last a long, long time.
Here is an application from 1914 on a hip roofed house in Bangor
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Jon,
Yes that is shadows cast by the ragged edge of the slates from the quarry. Afternoon light I think.
I never looked that closely until you reposted it.
It was warm yesterday and today, but mornings with a heavy frost. Had to finish up on the South side on Monday morning -- it was too slippery on the North side.
Walter
Why is it called a B-tank?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Eddie,
Thats what the gas house calls them -- size designation I believe.
Thats what they call 'em --- thats what I call 'em.
Walter
I don't believe that I have ever seen a closed valley, with slate.
besides copper valleies are way cool...
Heres what one looks like while being replaced
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"I don't believe that I have ever seen a closed valley, with slate."That is how I was taught to do them, so that is the only way I ever did them.I am not arguing one way over another, just pointing out that they are not uncommon.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Don't think you might have a boring thread here. If I am downloading all these on a dial-up, know that it is worth seeing! I normally skip the photo threads for the time invested being too much.your shot from on top looking down made me feel dizzy.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
<<your shot from on top looking down made me feel dizzy>>Me, too! I had to grab the arms of my desk chair to keep from going over the side! <G>
hope matt swanger doesn't see it
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Colleen,
I tried sending you an e mail thru the forum and had it kicked back to me -- and got nothing from you.
Just telling you, cause last nite you said I had an incoming.
Walter
That's peculiar. I used the 'reply' feature, so i know the email addy for you was good. Well, just in case you were in any doubt about how worthwhile your efforts are, here's the email i sent first on Mar. 29:Walter!I'm just tickled pink and purple! Thank you so much! I just now found the package the postal carrier left for me outside my walk-out basement door. I've been using the deck stairs on the other side of my house bec there are fewer of them, so i hadn't been out that lower door in a while. I don't know how long the package was sitting there, but it's none the worse for weather. Yes, it's been snowing again, after a lovely false Spring... *sigh*That's really quite a beautiful bit of architectural art, isn't it? I figure i can mount a plate to the back of it for a surface to sit a candle or a plant on. I'll mount it higher so that the casting is visible. The mounting strap is much heavier than i imagined, so i won't be bending it as i expected, LOL. I used to collect all manner of such things from old mines and cabins and loved them very much, but after Ian died i gave away an enormous amount of keepsakes and tools - still not sure of the pathology/psychology of that divestiture - including lots of old machinery parts that were so beautifully detailed from the bygone era and antlers i'd carried around since i found them when i was a teenager riding my horse through the hills.I've been following the timber frame thread, as much as i can, since i've had a bit of a setback in my healing process and can't sit too long. You've given us all a great gift by documenting not only your process, but the framing and the soapstone stove, too. Best wishes to your wife with her trip to Asia with Primary Source, which you mentioned there. I looked that up on the web...seems like a fine organization. I have some friends who are teaching English in China who went there last year on vacation, touring and hiking, and were so relieved and impressed at how warmly they were received. Sounds like both you and she are great builders, in your own ways.Warmest regards,Colleen
Edited 4/4/2008 3:08 pm by splintergroupie
Colleen,
That was a very sweet message thank you very much.
I wasn't feeling at all slighted -- just wanted to be sure it arrived.
I knew you had been laid up so the furthest thing from my mind was to pester you. When we were both on the Fest thread last nite I thought it was a good time to mention it , but it was just to be sure you got it safely, since I knew you appreciated it's art form.
Rest up and heal quickly -- your presence is sorely missed here !!!
Best regards, Walter
More pictures showing the melding of the two sides of the roof above the valleys.
No the soldering isn't completed yet -- just enough to slate over the tops and continue towards the ridge. Got rained out at noon so we'll do more next week.
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A few more of the last courses at the ridge.
We'll be using cor a vent with flashing and slate caps -- but we need to add these two shorter courses for a watertight application.
We had to make our bundle of lathes a little thinner to space up the longer of the two slates -- then add another lath to bring the shorter one up properly.
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Do they ever do ridge caps of metal on slate rooves? I was thinking one of copper with finials at the ends would be such a crowning glory...is that considered tacky?
Hey..expect a call in two hours ok? Gonna start the stabbing..LOL.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
I was wondering when i didn't hear from you yesterday if you went ahead without me. *sniff* I'll keep the phone handy.
Wood Eye do that?
Yestaday was hectic..tonite, we stick em.
Back to Walters Slate..
Sorry Walter..Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
Splinty,
Yes in certain situations a copper ridge is spec'd and used.
We felt this home would be more in touch with it's surroundings using a Boston ridge -- slate caps laid 7" to the weather with 16 oz. step flashings laid with each pair.
A fancy city house of a Queen Anne design might require the detailing you bring up. Looks fantastic on the right structure.
Walter
The second chiro appnt set me back a bit, sorry to say, but things have improved markedly the last couple days. I'm weakened from doing so little for three weeks - i can't carry more than about 20# yet - but my flexibility is suddenly improved and i can see the end of this deal from here. Best of all, i'm pretty sure i'll still be able to get my hoophouse built in time for Spring planting! Thanks for helping when things looked pretty dark. The BT fambly comes through again! <low bow>
Glad you're on the mend finally !!
Maybe Spring will get here in earnest soon and all our spirits can be lifted.
Pif,
Thanks for looking in - didn't really think I was putting too many on -- but the feedback is nice to reassure me.
Walter
I used to do a lot of roofing in the70-80's and had never seen it done
with slate. I guess, diff places diff techni.
Walter,This thread is anything but boring. You have presented many subjects in an educational manner.
Thanx for sharing your expertise.Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
And done like a gentleman too!
You don't see that is roofers very often!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I heard that.
Well, technically, I am not a roofer.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Welcome to Poo-ville, can I have your socks?Seriously Folks, I need a home for 3 lovers of your life.
Me neither.
I'm officially retired from that sort of thing, LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
chuck,
As always , your kind words are highly appreciated -- thank you very much.
Walter
Mr. Slateman,Good evening sir. First I would like to comment on the knowledge and skill that goes into your work. You and your crew make it look so easy. It truly is a work of art. Thank you for sharing. It is a pleasure to watch and I look forward with great anticipation everyday to seeing the progress that is made. I've noticed that you are approaching the ridge. What, if any, concerns are there in regards to venting this roof. I was wondering, since this is a slate roof, that this material would naturally lend itself to a "hot" roof. I was hoping that you might be willing to share any thoughts, comments, suggetions, and/or experiences. Thank you again.Cheers,T.
Edited 4/3/2008 11:27 pm ET by TGuide
TGuide,
Thanks for watching and commenting so positively on our labours !!
It's hard to know if people are looking in and enjoying the pictures or thinking that there are too many and borrrrrring !!!
Since this is a timber frame with stress skin panels for roof -- then strapping and sheathed with matched lumber -- it's a perfect chance to vent the thin area between the two surfaces. In this way we hoped to ensure a long life for the surface of the panels. We know the boards will last a long time -- it's been proven over time.
We will use Cor A Vent for the ridge then flashed with each course of slate caps.
A ways back in this thread is a mock up of this scenario.
Again , I'm glad you and possibly others have found this thread worthwhile.
Walter
Heres the thread number where the mock up is pictured.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=99268.471
Walter:
Keep the pics coming. Your craftsmanship is never boring. Makes me want a slate roof over my head though!
Mike
Mike,
Thank you very much.
Walter
"It's hard to know if people are looking in and enjoying the pictures or thinking that there are too many and borrrrrring !!!"
You're kidding, right? Me and about 10,000 others are hooked on this thread like a housewife on General Hospital!
We're just keeping quiet so as not to disturb the artiste at work. ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike,
Thank you very much.
I know some regulars were watching and chiming in but thought maybe I was a little overboard.
Walter
It's hard to know if people are looking in and enjoying the pictures or thinking that there are too many and borrrrrring !!!
Boring is not an issue with this thread. Been a really good one.
Tell ya, between Grant's work and yours, I'm going to have a Hell of a time figuring out what to put on the roof when I hit the lottery and build my dream home!
jt8
"If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles." -- Doug Larson
Both copper and slate !!!
Both copper and slate !!!
Well, I suppose if its a lottery win house, I can do that. Maybe a main roof with slate and lots of turrets or special things that can be clad in copper.
The first threads of Grant's that I came across were dealing with built-in gutters lined in copper. Back then he went under the handle of greenCu (his current sign on being a play on Cu). But the real thread that made me go "aha!" was this one:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=41708.1
'bout halfway through the thread, some dude named Karl stumbles in with some copper questions and BAM! Before you know it, Grant has manufactured the pieces this guy needs and we see a turret roof go from crusty to fabulous. From that point on I've been keeping my eye open for a copper use (but haven't been able to do it so far)
Now I'll have to keep my eyes open for a copper AND slate project! ;)jt8
So what was that like?It was like coming THIS close to your dreams. And then watch them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don’t think much of it. You know we just don’t recognize the most significant moments of our lives while they’re happening. Back then I thought, “well, there’ll be other days.†I didn’t realize that that was the only day. --FoD
In Maine they say " you've got to get in to win " so I suggest you buy some tickets soon.
I'd bet Grant would enjoy working on a high level project for a fellow BT'er.
I know I would too.
Your lucky numbers are 3 7 12 31 45 56.
Thanks for that link; i'd missed that extraordinary exchange. I love how it gets going: "Anyone know anything about copper roofs?" heh heh...
Threads like that were the reason I stuck around. I'd poked around years before, but didn't stick around. But there were some neat threads in 2004. I got hooked.
jt8
So what was that like?It was like coming THIS close to your dreams. And then watch them brush past you like a stranger in a crowd. At the time you don’t think much of it. You know we just don’t recognize the most significant moments of our lives while they’re happening. Back then I thought, “well, there’ll be other days.†I didn’t realize that that was the only day. --FoD
I was on 'sabbatical' in 2004, so i'm still unwrapping presents from that year. The picture of that copper-shingled turret even made an appearance in a dream last night where i was busily bodging some curved wooden trim. I need more clamps...
Stuart,
Thank you for following our work.
I hope I didn't sound harsh -- it was certainly not intended and hope you didn't take my comments that way.
Best regards, Walter
No, not at all...this is very educational (and entertaining.) It used to be that to watch construction projects a person had to go out and peek through a knothole in a fence someplace - nowadays we can do it from the comfort of our homes. :)
Some more pictures of todays work bringing both sides up -- working the main roof side of the valleys.
We'll leave the dormer sides of the valleys till we're done with the main roof.
See how much easier open valleys are to work than closed ? Not to mention more functional and better water tightness.
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The first two pics in 99268.566 really shows that you and your guys like the pink and purple toques. LOL
Keep up the good work, great thread as always.Martin
Edited 4/3/2008 9:14 pm by myhomereno
I always believe on being on the cutting edge of fashion !!!
Same as Stuart ... kick out the water coming down the side of the chimney bricks. I can see where it would trap leaves."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
kick out the water coming down the side of the chimney bricks.
Yeah, lots less water hits the flashing junction coming down the chimney than coming down the roof. http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
Chuck,
Thanks for pointing him in the right direction.
Wouldn't want him thinking I screwed up !!!
Walter
TGuide,
We've had a Tulikivi "corner" heater since '89. What do you want to know?
As has been mentioned-Great radiant heat and excellent fuel economy. Clean burning, so hot that unless you abuse it with total pitch pine burns (and I'm not sure about that) your chimney will love you. A light ash appears on the flue liner vs. that brownish black gum of creasote.
Two burns in ours of maybe 15 lbs of wood, no bigger than your forearm will heat 2700 ft. One burn of about 20 will give you comfort at night and a moderate warmth the next day. The stone will still be warm on single burns. Couple that with some passive solar and good building techniques and it could be your sole heat source.
We use it to accompany our HW radiant floor. Still in the late fall and early spring when we don't want to heat up the mass of the floor, we'll heat with it on one firing a day.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Walter,
I have been meaning to ask about that pemafelt. Is it one of the new synthetics or the old bituminous tarpaper layered with kraft and foil? I haven't ever seen this kind before but it sure seems to have held well for all this weather we've had.
Where do you get it and how does cost compare - or is this provided by the GC?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Walter will give his review, but I've used it on several jobs. Here, it's about $30/roll cheaper than Titanium UDL and very similar in composition. I had about 8 months open time on it on one job (waiting for carpenters to rebuild dormers) with nary a leak. It's got about the same slip resistance as Titanium.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
Paul,
The GC installed it after they sheathed the roof.
I've never used it before, but like Grant said it's slightly less money and appears to hold up well.
Walter
I assumed those slates had nails in them, lower on the slate but still under the flashing. Are you saying the hooks alone are stabilizing them?
No I'm not.. They do have nails too.
tanks mon!
better if you resize pics so all can see
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Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/18/2008 3:48 pm ET by MikeSmith
sarri mon, i be new here what do ya mean?
Looks a bit like Ralph, don't he?Maybe we'd all look like that if we moved to Florida
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Dial-uppers have a hard time loading pictures bigger than 100 kb. Yours was 1774 kb. Mike used a program like Irfanview (free, safe download) to resize them.
Nice roof! Is that slate? Is that safe? Just kidding, I know it's not safe....;-)
that's a teak wood roof called ironwood from bali, indonesia. that house is on a private island in the bahamas and it's owned by lenny kravitz. it's the only roof i do that's not slate. you can see more pics if you want here http://rooferscoffeeshop.com/photo_album_list.asp?u=136
south.... is this how you get out to the job ?
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in '64 i went to work for Mike Burke on Windjammer Cruises
we berthed on Government Island in Miami ( at the causeway ) but we couldn't pick up passengers in Miami.. they flew to Bimini and we picked them up there to cruise the Bahamas
good times
edit:
hey .... your photo albums are great !
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/18/2008 5:29 pm ET by MikeSmith
thanks mike, that's the builders boat that we stay on, that's the builder standing next to the plane. we put ladders and nails and such in there, it's a blast. he's building 8 houses there in total and a resturaunt and a marina and what not. everything has that same style, all the beams are carved out of teak wood in bali. supposedly the carvings tell stories.
I like you motel!
the slateman,
Sure didn't seem very fast. I mean I was never rushed or hurried. Can't do it anymore though.. heart condition doesn't let me work more than 10 to 15 minutes without laying down to calm my heart rate.
Wasn't even taking my heart medication back then. <grin> Of course I was 6 years younger and 35 pounds lighter..
Funny, as I age I slow down, as I slow down I gain weight, and as I gain weight my heart gets worse..
Do yourself a favor, don't get old <grin>
As to the so called pro's I was sure disappointed in their rate of production!
MY Brother-in-law had his whole roof done in three days. should have used that crew!
hey frenchy, thats extreemly fast for someone that doesn't do it every day. I would like to offer you a job. Not quite as good as selling forks.
Walter -
I'm using a telehandler right now and have used it or another on two other jobs recently. But, they are all new construction or major remodels where there's no landscaping. I wouldn't even consider using one on 90% of the reroof jobs we do. I have a boom lift and we can use it sometimes by laying 2x8 sheets of 3/4" plywood under the wheels.
The telehandler I use belongs to a competitor of mine who bought it after he ran up a rental bill on it equal to what it was worth. The rental place was going to take it out of service soon, so they let him have it for the rent he owed. He seldom uses it, so I get it pretty cheap.
One of the framers we often come behind often lets us use his for free. If we jump around and get the roof done around the dormers so they can finish quicker, they leave their telehandler for us to use for a couple of weeks. They have several.
If you've never tried one, the job you're on might be a good one to check one out. But on most of your jobs, it'd be a no go.http://grantlogan.net/
Today we's learnin' about rawks. They's all kinds of rawks. These [picks up rock] is rawks which you throw. These here [throws rock at Rusty] is rawks that you get hit with. E.Cuyler
Grant,
I hear what you and Frenchy are saying. If this roof were 3 storys tall it would make sense then, but this is only 15' to the eaves.
I didn't build in the cost of one for this job , but on other work I sometimes do use them - manlifts, not telehandlers.
I'm old and set in my ways and own plenty of pipe staging and "pics" so I don't find it difficult to do it this way.
Also here in Me. our roads are posted for weight restrictions now that the days are above freezing so it limits being able to travel with large trucks on our back roads. This would limit getting a machine in and out.
Walter
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Hey, you've got my dog. Is that really a Bouvier? Mine is named Grindle.
The nailing isn't as much the issue as if the material will still be intact 100 years from now. Boards have proven their ability to go the distance -- perhaps Advantech will too but theres no need to roll the dice.
I think that fighting checking in oak or ash is a loosing battle from the beginning. You can do the obvious things to minimize it, but beyond that all you can do is to think about how the wood is going to move when you are thinking about joinery design.
Gregat Benson.
Checking can be minimised but at a massive cost.. not in money but in time.. I air dried my timbers for over three almost 4 years before use.. I should have dried them for about 7 in retrospect. I deliberatly set the most interesting grain or charcter facing out and didn't pay attention to heart center.. I could have reduced visable checking if I'd gone fror straight grain and put the heart center away from the line of sight.. but first I carefully sealed the ends..
If you use paint you will need to paint the ends really heavy, let them dry for a couple of weeks and then paint them again and again a month later and mabe once again six months later..
OR you can use that waxy stuff they sell for that purpose and apply it only once.. (but it's not cheap)
Now you need to sticker those beams up so they can air dry and cover the top with something to prevent the top from drying out too fast (and checking) but not the sides, you'll want air to flow thru and carry off the moisture You'll also need to do something to keep the timbers from moving around as they dry..
I used those cheap ratcheting straps and most of my timbers stayed reasonably straight.. although I did have to stop back once a week and retighten them for about a month as they shrank a little and the straps stretched a little..
after a month I checked them monthly and eventually every spring and fall.. By the third year only rarely would a strap have loosened up enough to get another click into it..
Now comes the really hard part..
I don't care how carefully you stickered them and how carefully you kept the straps tight.. some timbers will have twisted and and bowed..
A few looked like they were hootchie cootchie dancers but most were OK if slightly twisted or bowed..
Dry wood is hard wood. If I'd worked the timbers green I'd have about an hour per timber in planning it and cutting mortice and tenions etc.. Dry it took me over 8 hours per timber! Average.. Some of that was taking out bow or twist but a lot of that time was because hard wood doesn't plane very easily..
Plus I wore out a lot of planner blades.. an average of two per timber needed to be resharpened.. and those planner blades can only be resharpened so many times before they are worn out completely.. I bought 32 sets of planner blades for the two 6 1/4 inch portable power planers I had.. I'm now down to 12 sets..
There are other solutions.. if you don't use the heart center of the log you won't get checking*.. If you do use the heart center of the log.. look at the ends.. whichever the heart center is closer to is where it will check. Hide that side. (against the wall or away from the line of sight) it will check but you won't see it.. It's tough if one end has the heart center on one side and the other end has it someplace else.. Now you have to gamble.. which side is the heart center closest to the edge longest? That's the side you want to hide..
I used shellac on my timbers.. that helped seal up the public side and I had fewer checks than other green timberframes as a result.. you could use varnish or some other sealer too although I am a big fan of shellac..
It would be nice if you could erect your building and let it set for a year before enclosing but that means you will have to resand the timbers again.. take it from me it's a ton easier sanding timbers on a pair of saw horses than when they are erected and you are hanging off scaffolding!
White Oak and Ash have similar strength. You should be able to find a better price on ash than oak by about 50% plus ash won't require stainless steel fastners to prevent the effects of tannic acid. The only two negatives that I can see about Ash is that it has a slightly greyish cast to it when compared to the golden color of Oak. Amd Ash isn't decay resistant like oak is.. (that shouldn't be an issue since timbers are usually indoors)...
One last point.. Make your joints as tight as you dare.. I mean I had to force mine together. You couldn't see any gap at all when they were assembled.. today a few years after drying out you look up and the joints all have opened up .. if I'd been the least bit careless or sloppy it would stick out like a sore thumb.. Look at Bensons pictures in his books of the homes he has put up. All of the joints have opened up. (with the exception of timberframes made with recycled timbers)
* while you won't get checking you will get something else. If quartered the timbers will slightly diamond rather than remain perfectly square.. If sawn in half they will bow or cup around the heart center..
Considering Frenchy comments about the joints opening - does the use of these timberlinks allow for the correction of that after a few years?
Or is that considered over-reacting?
That's a good question. I don't know if it's over reacting (I guess it would depend on the amount of movement or shrinkage.) but if you have the ability to adjust when you need to, why not take advantage of it. However, from what I know of the one Timberlinx product we use, it would be difficult to adjust...if not impossible. They may have other products that can be adjusted, so it would be worth contacting them.
Not to mention that trying to tighten joinery after the fact would be impossible because you would essentially be either "stretching" a member (like a girt) or bending the other member (like a post).Green timbers = shrinkage in joinery. That's what pockets are for. It's also what KD Fir is for (preaching to the choir, I am sure, but for other's enlightenment).
peteschlagor,
Loose joints don't weaken the structure, the tapered pegs will keep it plenty tight. they just are unsightly..
Same goes for checks.. they don't weaken the timbers they are simply unsightly..
The concrete pad was drilled on site for the metal, I'm not sure how deep. The metal was adjusted as seen in the photo. A Lexan plate sits between the metal and the wood.
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Edited 1/29/2008 10:20 pm ET by HIRLAS
<<They were part of a larger timber sale, we just bought them from loggers.>>That's what i was wondering, if the FS would put up special sales for small amounts of high-grade timber, something like mini-sales for post-and-pole cutters. Is P-pine a viable species for your work, or are the knots too large?
yes it was a typo.
Sorry, fohc is what we meant.
(free of heart center.)
Wow - sounds like a super level of design detail. Thanks for the info.
Forrest - now if I can just find a customer . . .
You's guys have any difficulty working white oak or these ashes that are dying in the Great Lakes area?
""and even produce a little sap in places"" Sometimes more than just a little. I built a house (framed) that had one big ( 8" x 18" x 30') DF timber as an exposed ridge beam. Got a call that spring on the first hot days about sap dripping down onto the carpet in the middle of the living room. Long story short you cannot stop pitch from dripping, and really have no idea just how big the pitch pocket may be. The one I was dealing with was visually a mere 3" long x 1/8" wide on one side of an otherwise flawless beam. I ended up building a CVG tray that hung under the beam to catch the drips because we could not get it to stop. I checked it 3 years later and the beam was still oozing pitch on hot days.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Thanks for sharing the pictures of your new place.
Please keep em coming!
Doug
It looks like the machined ends have been paraffin'd or something...? Picture 047. Anyone?
Splintie,
I never thought to put my hand on that to see if it was parafin or some type of oil. You're probably right though- lets have Blue and Frenchy vote too!
Guaranteed to run for 300 posts! I was thinking it's a mechanical joint, but if it needs 'persuasion', paraffin might lubricate as well as keep the smaller profile ends from checking. Guess i'll pull up a stump and wait for an expert to drop in.
I think you've nailed it dead on with the parafin use.
I just checked my e mail and I like C model a lot. Switched to an air card recently for high speed - I can receive e mail, but I've got to get the bugs out of sending it.
Send me an invoice thru the site with your info and I'll send out a check Walter
I'll send it out tomorrow. I'll invoice when i have a shipping cost. ENJOY!
We'll name you as an honorary member of the 15-2 club.
He's the fellow who built my pergola.
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Edited 1/11/2008 5:24 am ET by theslateman
Will your name be appearing as "Mr. 15-2 of 2007"? Or maybe in 2008 with the aid of the Splinterboard?
One can always aspire to such heights!
Good catch there.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
My guess is that the pariffin is to seal the endgrain so that it does not dry out faster than the rest of the timber..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
They were using Murphy's Oil Soap the day they unwrapped the beams and started putting things together.
Edited 1/11/2008 2:40 pm ET by pdol
Phil,
Yes I saw that the day we had lunch together.
We're they using the green 3M pads too? Thought I might take some more pictures on Sat. to post here. Maybe they have rafters going up if they got any time in today.
What a Jan. thaw! This will finish off your road I bet.
Walter
They started the day with pebbly ice everywhere, then sleet, but they worked safe and mounted the pine sprig! Hamilton's came in handy for some neoprene gloves.The gable-end frames are strapped down at the corners to promote catastrophic lift resistance.Metal is used judiciously to minimize wood removed from load bearing timbers.
Nice photos of some great looking carpentry.
BTW, are you aware of the custom represented by the small tree afixed to the ridge?
It indicates that it's time for the topping out party. The home owner usually takes responsibility for putting on a full meal and drinks for the entire crew. In winter it would be better if you invited everyone inside somewhere, preferably at the end of the work day, with a day or two's advance notice.
It's a great tradition, one that enhances the experience of building a new dwelling for everyone involved.
Can't get 'em drinking until the kitchen ell is erected.
The way I have heard the story about the tree (From a German carp) is that the druids , who worshiped trees, would place a small tree at the ridge of the house or dwelling as an invitation for the gods to bless and protect the dwelling and also as a small sacrifice to acknowledge the gods gift of the wood used in the construction.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I'd heard the small sacrifice story too, but also that it was the signal to break and celebrate. This sprig came from a sapling fated for the forest floor when it was found bowed, bent, and facing the new building under the weight of a snow bank.
I'm glad to hear that you're interested in traditions of this kind. It's a part of our trade that needs reviving for the benefit of us all.
Following the ceremonial aspect of this tradition will lead to your new home receiving many good wishes, the blessings if you will, of all those tradespeople to whom you show respect in this way.
I didn't mean to indicate that it wasn't the time for a celebration, that too is part of the tradition. I always put one up along the ridge or in the peak of trusses on the houses I built. Always got asked " Whats that tree for?" So I started calling it the "Whatsat tree " Whole crew knew just what I meant.
Edited 1/12/2008 3:47 am by dovetail97128
I got excited about the machine used to make these cuts and did some research. Here's the Hundegger site:http://www.hundeggerusa.com/Unfortunately, the "Virtual Demo" site is repetitive and features some truly obnoxious music (disco...what were they thinking???), but you can see the machine cutting off timbers and making stairs parts. The "Timber Frame" picture link comes up empty...too bad...but here's a link from there to the builders of the present TF:http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/industry-news.asp?sectionID=1476&articleID=501141
You can go see one in action at Rocky Mountain Log Homes right by Lost Horse.
Hmmm...trying to figure out why they would let me in... Can i tell then you sent me? <G>
Splintie,
Thanks for the link. You going to be ordering one of these units?!
"gods gift of the wood "depends how you define gods.
They considered the trees living entities with spirits indwelling them, same as the deer they ate had a spirit to be thanked for the provision of life or a human had a spirit to be said goodbye to at the time of death. So too, they honour the spirit of the tree that provides them the shelter.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The celebration with libations toasting the spirits of the trees who gave their lives for this undertaking is only the minor effect that others see. The sprig is placed not to initiate the start of the ceremony, but in thanks to all those trees that have given up their living connection with the earth - their roots. We honor them with the sprig in memory of how they had once been reaching from earth to the heavens as they grew.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That's a lovely explanation Piffen but I'm lobbying for the human side of it on behalf of my fellow carpenters and the homeowners who benefit from their skills.
The tradition of a celebratory feast is worth reviving because it unifies those whose attitudes toward each other is often unclear up to that point.
It benefits the homeowner because conferringrespect in a tangible way, in the midst of the project, is the best insurance he can buy to guaranty the highest quality work delivered with a caring attitude.
wasn't minimizing that side of it - just filling in the background. two sides of a coin. spilling libations was considered an offering
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Looks fun to install.
I'm jealous
Wow- they made excellent progress even with less than stellar weather yesterday!
I expected to see very fine craftsmanship from these folks- and I think thats it's surpassed what I thought I'd see.
I may stop down today to take some more shots too.
Walter
cool valley timber...
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I just got back from the site and took some more to put on .
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Here are a few more to show the frame and the first one of the wall panels
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walter, you take nice pics !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Thank you! These are with that knock around DSC S85.
Calvin told me to keep the good camera for other venues.
Those guys will be off on Sunday- then start the panels next week they told us today. They're a great group of guys doing the frame.
Walter
Walter,
Thanks for climbing around that frame to get us so many nice detail shots. It feels like I'm right there with you.
Peter
Peter,
It's my pleasure. I was highly interested and had a suspicion that many here would love to see such furniture quality joinery that you can live in.
Walter
This is Pornography for carpenters!Take it all off!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Keep your bloomers on-this is just the foreplay!
You'll get to see whats behind the curtain in due time.
From what the guys at the site said- they told their shop and office about this threads being up and running- cause I told them on the day I first took pics that that was my intention. Therefore if this is so --- maybe they can enlighten us further about the seperate floor design, the panels configuration, etc.
Walter
Everyone likes a little good free advertising
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Pretty good wood!
Man, you must have some secret power or somethin'. I tried to say that back at post #24 and I got bleeped! ;-)
I could never build something like this for myself -- I'd never be able to force myself to cover up any of that framing up with walls!
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
MIke,
That's why it's a timberframe where the timbers are exposed..
I went one further, I did a double timberframe.. timbers on the outside as well as on the inside.. (but you wind up with 18 inch thick walls)
"That's why it's a timberframe where the timbers are exposed.."
Oh, no it's not! I saw them later photos where they were actually covering up that work of art with SSPs.
I couldn't make myself do that! ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
The wall panels are pre-sheet-rocked? Must be that waterproof kind... <TIC>
I saw a pile of something in the background of one picture there with tarp over it.Also, the way this was all laid out and set up impressed me. I don't know when it was delivered, but I know you saw Slateman's picture of his case tractor in another thread showing how much snow we have had here. The fact they are working over bare gravel tells me they did very well protecting things or that they timed the delivery perfectly.Right now we have had about five days of thaw, but before that,the snow was wicked. One of my guys who commutes on the ferry said I have a foot less snow than he did before the thaw. here's a shot out my back door a couple days ago.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Nice stack of hardwoods! I have my negative-BTU lodgepole pine here. Weep for me and my poverty of cellulose. *sniff*I recollected a stack of pink foam board under a tarp...Post #2, since i just looked again. I'm surprised the roof should go on before the walls, esp with that SR, because i would think the wall panels aren't necessary for bracing that frame first. What am i missing in this picture? And won't the Piffin screws rust? <G>Jesse? Slateman? Mr. Owner?be learning...
Well, I can't speak for these guys and this house, but I use galvanized sheetrock screws.That pile is about 1-1/2 cords of next years firewood - mostly maple that I just cut this fall. The pile of snow in the left of the photo is on a tarp that covers another couple cords that are yet unsplit, and the path shoveled goes around it to this years wood.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The foundation is a perimeter on ledge, 2 to 5 feet deep, and filled with stone; center pads for masonry and center posts are on top of that. This was all completed just before the December snows. The foundation was covered with pink boards, plastic tarp, and straw bales, then cleaned off the day before the timber crew arrived. No additional frost-proofing was necessary. The radiant-heated slab will be poured after the shell is on and the space can be warmed sufficiently. Each post rests on a Lexan spacer which is inset from the edges of the wood to allow the concrete to flow under the wood and afford space for hidden shrinking.We got lucky with the weather window, very lucky.Members of this timber crew are off to South Dakota or some such after this—we'll seem like a summer holiday.
Spring is coming though - I hope!;)I don't believe the frost went deep yet. Too much snow too quickly after only letting the frost go a couple inches deep.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That pile of firewood would look good out back of my house. ;)
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
splintergroupie,
if you look at my pictures that's how I did it on mine, screwed the sheetrock to the SIP and put the SIP up in place.. Seams all behind timbers saves that work....
I'm not questioning the SR glued to the SIPS before installation. I like that idea, but i've also read that it's a toss-up whether it's cost effective with having to handle the panels so much more carefully. What i was getting at, though, was not the sandwich make-up itself, but the exposure of the panels to the weather before the home is dried in.
splintergroupie,
Well I only gouged one panel putting them up, I'd say North of 300+ panels. Some as long as 30 feet. It will take just a little joint compound will fix it right up. Nice to not have to put sheet rock up off scaffolding.. Stack of sheet rock, stack of panels all done on the ground.. Nice thing about SIP's is you can't miss with the sheetrock screws.. ;-)
I used moisture resistant sheetrock and even though I didn't ever get the place dried in untill I got the roof on completely with ICE and WATER shield covering everything I only lost a tiny corner of one piece of sheetrock to the rain and snow..
It took over 4 years to get everything dried in..
Alrighty then! I just looked at the panels again. It looks like the rock was attached to the face of the panels over 2x2s or something. Curioser and curiouser...hope someone comes back with more pics of those.
Splintie,View Image
Like I said To Pif, thereb will be more shots of those panels- just lifted a corner of whats covering them to take a peek for now.
Stay tuned for more pics.
Looks like 6" to 12 " of the white stuff for Monday. The check will be in the mail on Mon. as well!
Walter
Windows already! Looks like the night-shift was in. <G>Thanks for your patronage. It'll be pleasant on a long, cold evening to muse that you're using my crib board to whup the tar out of someone. You don't tug on Slateman's cape/You don't spit into the wind...
It will be a treat to beat someone with a handmade board with such beautiful woods! Also knowing that they won't be pulling on my cape will be a plus!
Walter
A few more shots with some panels in place. Camera is acting fuzzy on the focus today on the close shots.
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The SR's are not glued but screwed down to a spacer board allowing a chase space for flexible wiring after installation. In areas where power lines go outside, there are flexible tubes laid in the panels at construction time in the shop. Windows are pre-installed (some—most of the 1st floor—were not available in time). They make a tight and true panel with no insulation waste by doing it in the shop.
Thanks for the explanation. I thought that space might be for wiring or addtional insulation, but i'd only ever seen wiring chases already cut inside the foam inside the panel. That's always struck me as an unwelcome anomaly to compromise the insulative value of the panel, and possibly the structural integrity as well, at least when the SIPS are used as the structure itself, not just as cladding.
splintergroupie,
On my timberframe where possible I ran the wires etc.. behind the timbers. I bought what is called a groove cutter (think of a skill saw with a Dado head) and it makes cutting grooves for wire chases nearly instant..
Where I had to go thru panels it was extremely easy to use a spade bit on extensions to quickly buzz right thru. I mean how hard is it to drill through Foam?
That avoids the issue of screws needing to hit the spacers...
Yep, lotsa ways to skin a cat, though your routing out hardwoods for wires seems one of the more labor-intensive. Not quite as labor-intensive as my making F&P wainscot to run outlets behind the baseboard, however... <G> Still, i really like that the envelope won't be compromised this way. I did all my plumbing and wiring for my kitchen on the face of the finished wall, below counter height, then mounted my cabinets that much farther out from the wall. I have deeper counterspace as a benny and my fridge doesn't stick way out past the cabs, but most of all i have an intact wall > no freezing of the pipes...ever. It seems crazy to me that people put their pipes inside exterior walls in this climate, but they do it all the time and still suffer the consequences.
splintergroupie..
That's a neat idea. a tidy solution to a potential problem.. I don't see why plumbing is buried in exterior walls anyway. Even without freeze up's sooner or later it's going to be changed. Move the sinkover here, add a filter, or another line for something that will become as manditory as a dishwasher is. Why add sheetrock repair to the change?
Since my timbers take up and additional six inches of interior I could have used those six inches to put plumbing in.. Instead I ran the plumbing straight down thru the floor..
Bear ? I thought it was a beaver ? ?
That explains so much <G>
Mike,
I'm only the conduit to get this thread going.
My portion of the work will be the slate roof install.
Walter
"My portion of the work will be the slate roof install."
I understood that -- hope you can keep the conduit open start to finish on this job -- including the slate!
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike,
I'm hoping that the GC's and owner will keep it humming- appears there is a lot of interest!
No need to worry about a lack of pictures once the slate is being installed- if you catch my drift!!!
Walter
Keep the pictures coming! We are in the middle of construction drawings on our timberframe house that is being built later this year in the California sierras. It's very exciting to see a frame go up and to use this building style. We were very limited in finding experienced crews around us. It will be a treat to watch this thread and see how things progress.
Thanks- again this isn't my workmanship but I thought many folks would love to see a project of this caliber as it develops.
Good luck with your TF home and reciprocate by posting pics then!!
Well, this is pretty pale compared to the work shown here.... but here's a pic from the first timbers off my saw horses.
NOTE: My first attempt at posting this picture was way too big. Here's a resized one. (What size works well here?)
Jon
Edited 1/16/2008 4:56 pm ET by Hector45
Edited 1/16/2008 5:01 pm ET by Hector45
Hector, looks great! Are the square holes in the tenons for wedged through tenons?With the screws...I meant that we used screws that were shorter but had the same bit, whether it was a nut driver or torx 30 or whatever.
Are the square holes in the tenons for wedged through tenons?
That's right. If I ever have an assembled frame, I'll be sure to post pictures.
Thanks for the info!"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
(What size works well here?)
That 255 you posted is on the upper limit. 150-175 works well. If someone wants a high resolution to print, then you can email them a copy."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Walter, thank you for sharing your work and being forthcoming with the ins and outs of slate work. Beautiful stuff.
Unfortunately out here on the west coast, slate is a rarity. I can only recall one house that I have seen with slate, and that was prime real estate on a lake.
Leland
Impossible is an opinion.
Leland,
Thank you for taking time to check in !
On the East coast we're blessed with the best deposits for slate so it is more common here by far.
Walter
Walter,
It's been a real pleasure and a neat adventure, following along and learning from a true craftsman of your caliber.
BTW, I recently plugged my laptop into my LCD HDTV so it can be used as a monitor. Your photos look great on the big screen.
Hudson Valley,
Thank you for watching and being kind with the encouragement.
we're winding down now. I'll have some last shots put up tonite or in the morning.
Walter
Thank you for watching and being kind with the encouragement.
Just paying sincere respects where they're due. I am fortunate to have learned the value of striving for quality and of respecting those who are similarly dedicated to that aim.
It's a real blessing to be in the company of a craftsman such as you are. It reawakens my wish to strive for something higher than mundane stuff like profit margins.
Per aspera ad astra
Thanks again , but we're not much different than most folks here -- doing what we know to the best of our abilities.
Profit's not such a bad thing either !!!
Walter
Beautiful work , great thread . Thank you !
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Dove,
Thank you for taking the time to view this thread.
Walter