I have never walked of a job once I started, but I’m real close to doing just that on this one. It’s not like I’ve never had difficult customers, but I’m working for one now that I think is going to be completely impossible to please.
Basically, she’s treating me as an employee who must do whatever she feels is important regardless of what we originally discussed or what is written in the proposal. In fact, she pretty much admitted to ignoring the proposal because she thinks that the work that needs to be done is self-evident and it doesn’t matter what was written down. For example, I wrote down that the customer was to select all colors (since I’m doing a lot of touch-up) and when I started, she just told me to do the best that I can. Of course, my “best” isn’t good enough for her and now she’s complaining about the color match.
I’ve already done several additional repairs that she claims we discussed when I reviewed the work and that has put me behind schedule. It was easier to just do them at the time it than to argue about it, but she continues to find more things that we supposedly discussed, but are NOT written down.
I hardly slept last night (I already have trouble sleeping) and every time I woke up, I found myself agonizing over how to deal with this job. I think it’s unprofessional to just walk regardless that I’m confident that it wouldn’t have any negative repercussions to my reputation. She’s slightly outside my usual circle and not the kind of person to give me any referrals anyway.
This line of work is a career change for me. I’ve been doing it for about 6 years and I chose it because I enjoy it… most of the time. I just don’t need this kind of aggravation. It has put me in a really bad mood which is affecting everything else going on in my life. I’m sure I take my job way too personally, but it’s worked for me so far and has left hundreds of very satisfied customers in my wake.
I know this is a lot to read. I wanted to try and get some of my thoughts written down to see if helps me to see more clearly what I should do next. If anything, writing it down has made me feel more strongly about just walking away.
Today will be the telling day. It’s only going to take one more straw. I’ll probably post back this evening with an update.
Maybe it’s just my turn to be the fire hydrant and I sure don’t like it.
Replies
I've only walked away from one job in my 20+ years in the truss business. I wasn't sorry that I did after it was all over.
Life's too short...
Don,
I'm almost ready to walk prior to starting what could be a nice job for a Dr. on a great home.
sometimes you can feel whats right to do.
I wrote down that the customer was to select all colors (since I'm doing a lot of touch-up) and when I started, she just told me to do the best that I can. Of course, my "best" isn't good enough for her and now she's complaining about the color match.
Okay, that additional charge is on her. After some of her other comments I would have stopped this awhile ago. You gotta make sure your getting paid.
I stepped off once. I shoudnt have taken the job to begin with but I was slow. Ended up costing me. I gave her back her deposit and left about $700 worth of custom ordered material on her site.
It was worth it to never come back.
Don, didn't your mother explain to you that women have the right to change their minds, any time about anything? ;-)
I'd tell her what you're telling us about the aggravation. Explain that you have to either make a fresh start with a clear agreement, including a precise list of items to be done and materials to be used...or you're going to pack up and go on to your next job.
Edited 6/11/2008 9:04 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I had a customer once that I kept thinking I saw the light at the end of the tunnel. I could gut it out for awhile. The tunnel kept getting longer.
People like this can be quite manipulative. Because you care about being a responsible, professional person, she may try to exploit that. Even though she disregards any sort of agreements, she will probably pull your strings by coming up with all kinds of ways that you violated the rules of decent society by leaving.
If you can't get control- leave.
There is no reason to get sucked into somebody else's private hell.
I've walked a bunch of times and never once regretted it.......
I make a deal, I stick to it. If the other party chooses not, there's no longer a deal.....bye bye.........
Don, pull out that written contract and keep it in plain view. Every time a new request is made, get the change order out and politely ask what changes are being requested. As she speaks, start writing them down on the change order.
Don't do another thing unless it was written and agreed upon in the original contract, as well as the change order.
You've mentioned that it was "easier to just do the changes". You've unleashed the bad genie with that logic and now you know that it was easier at the moment, but harder overall.
When you walk, make sure it's because your contract allows for it.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I agree completely with Jim. Get good at change orders. Not just for this job but for all your future jobs. In the future you might just have the change order back the next day but for this one I'd do what Jim said.
Right then and there in front of her whip that baby out. If she says something just say you have a lot on your plate and you want to make sure you get it down right so she is happy.
I worked for one contractor made lots of his money on change orders. How is the customer going to shop it around? Are they going to get multiple bids on it?
I'm not saying do this in an unscrupulous way. But if changes set you back and disrupt your flow they should have to pay for that as well as the work.
After all, it's not your fault they can't make up their mind.
All change orders should also include a minimum paperwork fee of say, $25.00. That won't really cover the real cost of writing and processing the change order so if the fee were $50 or $75, it would indicate to the client that you are serious about proceeding with the job as written and if they want to play the "add to the scope" game, the costs will escalate in a hurry even if the add on is only a "ten minute job". Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I learned on one job that you make money on every part of the job.
I worked for one contractor made lots of his money on change orders. How is the customer going to shop it around? Are they going to get multiple bids on it?
I'm not saying do this in an unscrupulous way
I knew a wise old contractor that said, "corners and change orders, thats where the money is made"
He told me that you dont gouge the customer on the change but there are no freebee's or discounts on the change.
Doug
You obviously care about your job & reputation. Walking off seems like a last resort. I would either (A) sit down and discuss your thoughs with her or (B) leave a change order / out of scope bill...
i get progress payments as i go and not their version of the amount done i tell them " no progress payment no more progress on job "
amazingly it seems to clarify their vision and concentration
my standard saying is " if you got the money i got the time "
Don,
I have walked off one job. Same deal. No end to the list and no making her happy. At one point I asked for her to simply tell me what it would take to finish the job to her satisfaction. Her reply? No answer. She just shrugged.
So I started packing and told her to keep the final payment that I would not be treated in that manner. Five times back and forth to the truck and each time it went from asking me to finish to darn near begging me. But I had made up my mind and left anyway.
Good decision. Never regretted it. He husband actually sent me part of the final payment. I still didn't make much money but at least I didn't lose any. I would walk. Life is too short as said above. DanT
I've been there too Don, and I feel for ya.
There are going to be times when you're better off cutting your losses. Given that you don't think this customer can hurt your rep, this may be one of them.
But: If you can survive the job with your sanity and shirt intact, then do so. You can chalk it up to a learning experience about how to nip problems in the bud.
If you can't...Remind yourself this is a business arrangement. If you are not benefitting from it or it is hurting you, it's a bad business to stay in.
There are some people who cannot be pleased, and ther are some who will intentionally try to take advantage of you. To sacrifice your sanity and business model by not acknowledging that does nobody any good.
I was a "Working" GC on a custom home several years ago...the owner, who was retired and living on site turned out to be one of the most miserable SOB's I've ever dealt with.
Trouble was, I had a firm contract for the project that, if I were to walk away, I could be held for breach of contract and be held liable for what a finish bid to complete might have entailed over my original contract.
I was not sleeping, I was eating Tums like candy and each day was like 50 hours long.
One day, he came over and started screaming and yelling at one of my employees (a good one) over some trivial detail about which the customer was completely full of sh!d.
So I told my crew to load up all our tools, unpaid-for consumables like nails and bolts and plywood, caulk, etc. and we left with two pickups stuffed full.
I immediately began getting threatening emails and calls I wouldn't answer for a WEEK.
So I finally called him one day and told him we needed a man-to-man talk. And we did and I gave him a printed set of guidelines for future behavior on his part and my part and that I didn't want him in the building while we were working and he was only to talk to ME at the beginning and end of each day. To do otherwise would mean a permanent walk on my part (partly bluff, but he believed me).
We finished the house after that and it went just fine.....a couple months after we'd finished and he was all moved in he called me and raved about how he loved the house and how he appreciated the worksmanship and blah, blah, blah.
He's really the only customer I've ever had problems with, but those problems were virtually killing me and, I'm sure, shortened my life.
So my advice to you is confront it early on and if things don't improve and you have the legal option of doing so, walk, even run and don't look back....it's not worth it.
Edited 6/11/2008 1:57 pm by Notchman
I can't possibly reply to everyone individually, but I certainly want to thank everyone for weighing in on my dilemma. I am most grateful for your comments and concern.
So, what did I do and why am I writing this before evening? I walked off first thing this morning. Even before I read any responses. I had to. My mental health was at stake. Once I started thinking about how I would actually walk away, it practically became impossible for me not to.
The customer assumed I was having some kind of nervous breakdown because of some disagreements we had yesterday. She thought it was out of character and that she couldn't possibly the cause, so something else must be going on with me. I didn't bother to argue the point.
I apologized for not completing the job and returned her deposit. She appreciated what I had done so far and without any prompting, she actually wrote me a check for a small portion of the work. It was not much, but it does cover all of my materials.
And so there it is. I feel much better... next customer, please.
Thanks for listening,
Don
Good for you! Life is too short as it is....
There is no better feeling than walking away from a bad client. When they are your biggest or only, it takes a lot more, but it becomes even more satifying after the deed is done.
Life will get better.
Pete
There is no better feeling than walking away from a bad client
Oh yes there is.........when they call you back for more workie. And you turn them down. THAT feels GREAT!
Only had it happen a couple times. But I was serious happy
course I deal with contractors not crazy HO
best one was contractor on the house next to ours. He built his and was into it for about a year when we started. He overexcavated onto our lot. (Took some of our dirt) to get his grade OK for the inspector. First Spring after we move in I called him and asked if he would share in a retaining wall. Not even 50-50 but just a smaller portion. Hell no was his reply.
So I did it on my dime.
And about 1-2 years later he calls up wanting some jobs scrapped out. I reminded him of his "help" on my retaining wall. and politely told him ...........NO!
Boy that felt good
Edited 6/11/2008 7:01 pm ET by Scrapr
Meanie!!
;-) Hope you didn't, and aren't getting burned in the Legend meltdown.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I am not into Legend. Or rather they aren't into me. We finished a couple projects last Fall. Got paid up right away like usual.
Now if the reciever comes looking for cash..........I'm all out
lol (i think)
Reminded me of a job I did in So. Fla. I agreed to install an irrigation pump and start it up. My contract was only to install, not supply the pump. The customer did not like some feature of the unit and refused to pay me until the pump supplier took care of the problem. The first freeze that winter the pump would not prime. (The guy stood to lose his whole crop of mangos on 20 acres.) He called and begged me to come and take care of it for him. My reply was, "I'll be there as soon as I can". Trouble was I couldn't get there. :) (I know, that was childlike but it still feels good.)Some times we have to stand up for ourselves.
Last total build I did was for a neighbour on the lake............kept pestering the hell out of me, then one day he went over the line......I just walked over to him..."Lookit, shut the f--k up and leave me alone........Can you do that?"He did.......even joked about it later.......you just never know what's gonna happen when you go ballistic on someone........He signed when he should have
He never complained again
He loved the house when I was finished
I think he even wanted to kiss me goodbye when I was finished
There's too many customers out there who WILL appreciate your work to put up with the few PITA.
I walked off one job, but have sat down with several others, basically saying they hired me thru word of mouth, because of my rep. Back off now, or I'm leaving.
One of my regular customers in Westfield was like that. I think part of it has to do with the assumption that some have that people in the trades aren't quite smart.
Stand up for yourself, and a bad customer can become a good one. But sometimes its just not worth trying to work things out.
Anytime you want to talk, have a beer, or whatever, just give me a call.
I have experience picking up the phone and making the dreaded phone call to tell a customer "this isn't working out"I've done it three times.The first time was an elderly woman. I politely told her I would not be able to paint her house.She because upset and really to be honest she just became angry and started rambling sentences and I thanked her and said goodbyeThe second time was with a young couple and I was their realtor helping them buy a house.He reacted nervously and did not know how to handle the situation and did not know what to say. He was very uncomfortable.He called me a few days later and said he wanted to keep trying and I told him my parameters again and he got nervous again and did not know what to do. I had stood my ground and told him what we were doing. He did not agree and I guess you would say "he gave up" and I walked away.The third time was interesting.I picked up the phone and told a Buyer I could not longer work as her realtor due to my schedule and that I didn't think I could realistically help her accomplish what she wanted in her price range.SHE REFUSED TO LET ME GOWe talked on the phone for 15-20 minutes and We reached an agreement and I continued and our "confrontation" actually improved our working relationship by airing out our issues and concerns.I think you should confront the other person and air your grievances.I think you have a 50-50 chance of losing the customer though
Thanks again for all of the comments. I try to contribute here on BT, but I get a lot more than I give.
Here it is 2 days later and I have absolutely no regrets. I lost an entire weeks paycheck, but I'll get over it. The more I run through my mind the various conversations we had, the more I realize how I was being manipulated. I think it's such a standard way for this customer to deal with contractors (and btw, I was the first good one she thought she had found... she told me that as I was leaving) that she doesn't even realize she's doing it.
And to those that warned me that I have a legal obligation to finish: I realize that I am incurring some liability if I cash the small check that she gave me. Anybody can claim breach of contract for any reason. BUT, she told me that she didn't care what was written down, here's what needs to be done. That's worse than a breach of contract, that's just flat out ignoring it. I could have dealt with some "scope creep" and I usually do, but this one had already started to creep beyond all reason and I could not get control.
Our reputations follow us around and so do theirs.
If she really is a PITA other people who know her will wonder why you did'nt walk!
DonCanDo
My next door neighbor is like that.. impossible to please. When she was having some work done she had the carpenters there litterly in tears over her insanity. The contractor who did the work for her was over there every day listening to her bitch about every single thing. 95% of which were insanity.
She built an addition on her house and had her brother do it. Since then he's not been back.
Some people simply aren't worth the effort..
Don
Now you can look forward to another day.
She is setting you up to not pay you. Negotiate again and state your position. Leave if you have to. You probably won't get paid anyway.
Good for you. Sometimes it's just not worth the aggravation to stay but , you also have to walk off in a way that you can't be construed to be at fault. In other words there should be some kind of letter sent (preferably registered - return receipt requested) stating that the terms of the original contract were not being followed by her in areas A, B, and C and because of that you are exercising your right to terminate the agreement.
Obviously, it would be good for a lawyer to review it, but even just sending it will put her on notice that you're not one to be messed with.
Good for you, and let this be a learning experience if it's the first time you have had to deal with this. Some customers no matter how hard you try can never be pleased and will nickle and dime your profits away. Some show themselves early others are harder to pick out.
Typically the easy ones will rattle off a whole list of things that other contractors did wrong and had to redo in order to get paid. Like...
See that carpet... I made them rip it out twice before they got it right.
See my historic car... I made them repaint it 4 times before they got it right.
See my new furnace... they had to add extra ducts to get it right
And the list goes on.
Well my hat's off to you, Don. Here's the other side of the coin.
I had a job fall into my lap last fall, had to be done by a certain date, they were willing to pay, could I make it happen?
I scheduled their 6 week job into a 4 week hole in my schedule knowing it would be tight, but looking forward to the challenge.
By the end of the first week, I had already had several runins with the customers, them ignoring the contract we both signed, getting in my face at meetings, enough that after calling "this shouldn't be this hard" meeting I ALMOST opted out of the deal to cut emotional losses.
But no. I vowed to take it as a character building exercise, a challenge to take on to please them and turn the relationship around, to keep my good name in the community, to make the profits.
Long story short, got to within 1 hour, ONE FREAKIN' HOUR of completing the job when things came to a head and there was no turning back. They blew their stacks for the umteenth time, and I fnally blew mine for the first.
Did they get a first class job? Absolutely.
Did we make the expected profits? Yes.
Were they happy in the end? I don't know, but judging from the letter they sent me with the final check, I'd have to say no.
Was I glad I stuck it out? No. It bothers me every day, 5 months later.
I would have been far better off to break things off as soon as I recognised how bad a match we were, but I wasn't man enough to do it. I hope I will be next time, but I doubt it. Now I'm the one left carying this anger around and they got the job they hoped for, and more. A lot more.
Good point about "tells" to a customer's future behavior. I was worried when a lady who wanted me to paint her kitchen (oil-based enamel) told me what she wanted and then took me into their living room and said--"Just look at that!" I looked puzzled and she said, "See, all those drips that the previous painter made?" I bent over and looked more carefully--there were some tiny little drops of paint on the woodwork under what he had painted. I almost panicked and told her maybe I wasn't the painter for her, but it did turn out alright and she and husband were satisfied with what I did.
I said in another discussion here that I am a man of my word and so on, but I did sort of walk away from a job once. I am an artist, and remodeling and painting houses are my day jobs (otherwised I'd be starving). Lady saw a four part painting I had done in a gallery. She liked it, but it had been sold and she called and asked if I'd make a copy. I said I would not (that would make the painting I copied worth less and I just won't do it), but I would be happy to make her a painting similar to it. So, long story was I went out to their house because she thought I should know about their tastes and to match colors of furniture (that should have been warning!). She and hubby showed up late--I was ready to leave when they finally arrived (and this was about a half hour drive from where I live).
She told me that she thought the other painting was on the pricey side but wanted hers even larger. We discussed what she wanted (husband didn't say much) had made some sketches and she told me the flowers were too artistically arranged in the sketches--she just wanted masses of color and she didn't like the shape of the vase. I asked how she wanted the background and she said--"You're the artist, do what you want there."
Anyway, after several visits on their part--one where they told me a fallen petal needed to look more lifelike and another after they had come in a big hurry and when they went home the husband and wife had two different ideas of what they had seen, they called to ask if I could have the painting done later that week because their in-laws would be visiting. I said I needed a little more time (had to frame it) and I would get it to them before their in-laws left at the end of the following week. So instead of getting it framed, I did it myself. (The painting being in four parts made the framing tricky--frame was like a window with mullions.) When they came to pick up the painting and give me the check, they raved about how wonderful the painting was.
A couple days later, they left a message on my answering machine that they had noticed some putty in the mitered corners of the frame (I am not a framer) and asked what I proposed to do to fix that, as it detracted from the painting. I left a message with them and ended up just writing them a check that basically sold them the painting for what the other one had been, knocking $100 off, and I told them to use that toward getting it professionally framed (which I knew the $100 wouldn't even pay half of). My wife was furious with them and ticked at me for letting them take advantage of me, but I was done with them. Of course, all the future jobs they had promised would come my way didn't, but if their friends were anything like them....
That seems like a classic product/service question. Are you selling a product, or a service?
Product - "Here's the completed artwork. Do you want it, or not?"
Service - "What do you want?"
Big difference, in my mind. And that single question - am I selling a service or a product - is the one I stumble on continually.
So, long story was I went out to their house because she thought I should know about their tastes and to match colors of furniture (that should have been warning!).
Sounds like she should have been shopping at one of those Starving Artists sales held at a Holiday Inn...."Sofa size paintings for $29.00!"
:)
Lol yeah, the one's where the crappy painting is $29 but the required custom frame is $400!
I told people that I could just about imagine Van Gogh (or better yet, Gauguin, who had a bad temper, if I remember right) making a painting for someone so it could "go with their couch." (I'd say that's what made Van Gogh crazy, but I think he only sold one painting (some say none, but I seem to remember that he sold one to his brother or a doc or something)--maybe that one painting was a commissioned painting like the one I did and that's why he never sold another (and what made him nutsy)!)
(Maybe that's what happened to Walter Sickert, the artist who a famous mystery writer says was Jack the Ripper (cannot remember her name right now--Sarah Paretski comes to mind, but don't think it's she)--He had one too many women customers tell him the brown in the painting didn't quite match the brown in her pet corgi's eyes! Next thing you know, he's thumbing the edge of the old butcher knife and eyeing some poor woman's throat!)
OK, here's the legal perspective: You have a contract. If you breach it by walking off the job just because she's difficult (and she's only difficult because you are letting her be difficult by caving to her demands for work outside the written contract), she may be justified in hiring someone else and then you'll be on the hook for anything additional over the original bid that the job costs -- and you can bet it'll be more than your original bid.
Don't walk off the job. Go back, proceed to promptly and efficiently complete your written contract -- to the letter. NO extras. If she refuses to do her parts (like picking colors, or whatever), she's the one on the hook instead of you. You can then stop work until she completes her task, provided she completes it in a reasonable time.
No point losing sleep over it. Just grit your teeth and deal with it. Git done and git out!
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
I walked off 2 in my life but left while i still had the materials in my truck..
After years in biz i have superpowers that detect insanity.
But even i can be felled by Kryptonite..
i have asked the neighbors what manner of people might these be???.
Several times my greed and hunger almost put me in over my head. Some times visions of sugar plum fairys danced in my head{boats and MCs}
Discretion be the better part of valor, I say.
Grab your kit and run from the Alamo if need be..
Get on your horse and ride away from the little big horn.
I'd opt for "What would it take to make you satisfied with the work done?" and let her put some thought behind her complaints. If she can't define what she wants done differently and listen to your response, then it's probably never going to be a good resolution for anyone.
Don't know what kind of color matching you were doing, but it's a good idea in future to get the ins/outs of that sort of thing settled on paper in advance. If a customer says it's OK to do the best you can do, then nail down "the best" to mean a color selected by and a benchmark sample approved by that customer. No sign-off on the benchmark, no work.
Have only walked off one job, for non-payment. Have had some I'd like to have dumped and probably should have.
I have actually drafted "Susan's Rules" to give out to customers, tho I call them project guidelines. I try to cover things that have caused me problems in the past, and I keep updating the info. Customers who show reluctance to understand the things on the list get a pass!