Wall Layout from center or edges?
blownonfuel
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
Hello. This was mentioned in another post so I was wondering if I could get more feedback on this subject. I don’t want to start a debate just would like to hear why some start in the center and some from the edges of walls.
What do you feel you gain from starting in the center or the edge? How does it help you with the technique you choose?
Thanks
Replies
There's no variance for error with a center layout,(mho). There is only one dimension for the center and two for the edges hence a possible layout error. But that said if you just pay attention to what your doing and it shouldn't matter much.
When framing, my Dad taught me to lay down all the plates on the slab before I start nailing anything up. Walk it through and double check everything before you pull 'em up and build.
Nothing worse than framing a 40' wall, standing it up and finding your 3 1/2" to long on the slab or all your channels are a stud off.
I'm no expert and most of my layout experience was from commercial a while ago.
These are just thoughts on it that's all.
I would always try to figure out what was the most critical dimensions in the layout.
I think every plan is a little different and the type makes a difference.
For me it was a central hallway that had to be a certain width by code.
It was long and straight so establishing that was first.
Then the rooms were laid out from that. But we had to look out for windows on the exterior wall and not lay out a wall in the middle of one.
Also, we found that if we just laid out rooms down the building at the end we would end up with a funny room size.
In residential a bathroom is probably more critical than an adjacent bedroom since the bathroom is usually more cramped.
Or a kitchen size is critical because of all the stuff $ that goes in there.
If you are building the walls. Maybe layout should follow the order of the walls going up? Because the long walls go up first?
Just some thoughts on it. Like I said I'm no expert.
Edited 7/9/2008 1:49 pm ET by popawheelie
Most af that I agree with but do it in design and planning stages.He was talking stud layout within the walls, but didn't make that really clear.
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From the post I had no idea. Funny, really.
I always lay out individual walls from the ends. Where else would I hook my tape?
on the nail.
That would work.
I guess I'm guilty of starting this with my comment.
To get the context - I was answering the Q about why on hip roof layouts.
For me it saves steps and time when calculating and cutting the hip rafters, since a layout from center means each two descending rafters will be the same size. That means fewer chances for error calculating them. To my eye,it looks better too.
So with walls, when I know I am roofing over a wall with a hip, I layout from center.
On an addition I layout for studs from outside corner in
On new, it might be from north to south and from west to east. What gets confusing is when a guy does layout from his left to his right all the way around. it is a lot less confusing for mechanical subs when things line up.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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You just peaked my curiosity Piffin that's all. Everything I have been reading up to now in those "how to" books never mentioned doing layouts from the center. I'm glad you mentioned it.Thanks
There is no right or wrong really. Like Boss mentioned, I worked construction for 20 years before hearing of anyone laying out from center.
'course most of that time was in roofing and not framing.Then I worked with a guy whose carpentry background was in boats and yachts so he laid out from the keel - and then applied that to houses. Much of what he did made little sense in home construction, but that one stuck and saved work long run for me. i've seen other framers do it since then.Like Jim mentioned in the other thread, he was originally taught to layout from center, then dropped that over time.
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some times layout from center is job salvation.... finding what whet askew...
but how many lay out from left edge to right... turn around and still lay out from left to right....
learn both and use them as checks and balances...
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Thanks Piffin. It makes sense to me now. I could have worded this post better had I really understood what you were telling me. I know now though.Thanks again.
Segundo did do a good job of putting it in words!
He must be bucking for an attaboy!
;)
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From the corner, cause that is how they are laid out on the print!
When you work for a production framing co., everyone lays out the same, from the corner. I can see some benifits for laying out from the center, just never did it, less mistakes.
I never head of laying a wall out from the center until this thread.I always laid them out from an end. somewhere or another that should allow a sheet of something to be put up without cutting it.
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if you layout from the center, what happens when your outside wall comes up short or long ( even worse) outside walls are the definitiion of the building so why not start there?
sorrry, beg my forgiveness,, read op wrong
i'll go back and try again
you need to build the roof first, on paper anyway.
then work your way down.
what that means is you have to think about what you are supporting when you layout framing for a wall. depending on the plans, what is being built, you may have bearing points to consider. Best to have the layout of the roof figured so you can calculate where the studs should go, there could be other variables as well affecting wall stud layout such as intersecting wall channels, window and door openings etc.
as a previous poster suggested you should plate the entire structure first, then mark wall intersections, then door and window openings. then you look at your roof framing sketch, and layout for the rafters on the top plates (just light marks for reference, they get covered by double plates) then you lay out for your wall studs and every chance you get have them directly under a rafter.
I will also take into consideration other things such as plywood layout/waste for roof and walls. depending on circumstances it could be best to start from the center, or at least identify a reference point from the center and measure to a start of layout point near one end of a wall and then drive a nail on which to hook your tape and do the layout.
Thanks Segundo. That makes good sense. I'm glad Piffin mentioned it in my other post. I did not really understand what he was saying so my original post may not have been worded correctly but I understand now what he was telling me.
Ok I missed the point of the orig post but I mostly got it. Exactly what you said tho lay down the plates and mark out all the openings the consider the roof rafter layout as others have said.
I miss my old man. He'd stand walls then he'd start cutting every roof part and organize it on the ground. He never measured anything after he double checked the spans. He just wipped out his little blue book and went to cutting. All his HAP cuts nestled tight to the top plates and there was no fade either way on his ridge cuts.
A good, old school carpenter. I don't do enough any more to stay as good as he was.
jagwah...........just wondering if you use that little"blue book"......I used mine cutting a hip on the ground and still think I cando it faster than with a calculator or framing square ...that was two weeks ago and I saw a note in it about payroll from 1976.
I think mines about that old and ya I grab a calculator now adays. I keep it around more or less foe nostalgia.
I didn't read all the way through your post because I have to take off. But for us, the priority is the sheathing for shearwalls. So I don't worry about stacking rafters over studs because we framed 24" oc anyway with a double topplate.
The priority is sheathing and stacking studs for the trades. I've thought about laying out from center, but it doesn't seem worth it.
Tim, I think you have got it right!
We stack everything and it looks really clean and all the trades commend us for consistently making thier jobs easier because most of our work is remodel and additions and if you cant duct or plumb from existing to new, I think you're screwin the next guy
Most framers layout from the corner of the house. I framed mostly new construction for 20+yrs, and thats how we did it. I think that thinking about center layout could be important if you cut rafters, but otherwise it's not important.
Stacking studs from first floor to the second is standard. If they aren't stacked, good indication the framers didn't know what they were doing!
Both Piffin and Secondo have shared some great insights. I think, I think like that too. Top down and divided by two when possible/practicle.
There is another cool time saver for starting layouts from center and that is that you can butterfly your plates for layouts, or gang layout both sides at once. (Garage walls with gable or hip roof over the centered door, for instance)
With layouts that start from the ends you can gang layout lots of walls, or at least get them started all at the same time. It would be cool if lumber yards/mills would pre-mark layouts on plate materials. Say 16” o.c. on one side and 24” s on the other (Like some OSB sheathing has). Save a lot of time on general layouts.
Whatever style I pick, I like to mirror the walls in the rooms to stack my joists. But right or wrong, if it’s all wrong, it’s all right. (Because it’s all the same)
Gee, interesting thread. Never seen anyone lay out from the center as a general practice. Round here, almost all roofs are 24" oc and walls are 16" oc, so we generally don't worry about the roof. If there is a floor system 16"oc, I will start all layouts on the bearing walls from the same end as the floor system is laid out. No structural reason for it, but it helps the trades out.
I usually hook the end of the "by" wall, windows be damned. I used to scratch and figure and try to make my layout fit window studs--that is, use a king stud on layout, but I have given that up. On the "butt" walls, I burn 6" from one end. That way I have full sheets on at least one corner of every wall. The only time I have laid out from the center is when using 4x8 siding and you need nailing on panel edges yet have a symmetrical siding layout.
I watched Larry Huan's video on framing floors and walls. It is entertaining if you haven't seen it. His layout method was to start from one corner. When he got to a window, he would rehook his tape and restart his layout from the far king stud. This saved studs and time, I guess. I don't think he was using plywood. I'd think when you got to nailing base trim, you'd be cussin the framer if he had done that.
Wall measurements are from the outside to outside on the exterior walls. Interior walls are from the inside of the 2x to the inside of the 2x. For me it makes no sense to give a measurement to the center, then you have to make another mark back half the thickness of the 2x to snap your line, makes no sense.
As far as marking 16" centers, that's easy also. Layout your outside front and black walls first and make a mark and then take a chalkline and snap the line on each 16" center mark on the front and back walls and they will mark every single interior top plate. You don't have to take out your tape because all your 16" centers are marked for your studs and floor joists above. Can't make a mistake that way, plus everything is nice and straight.
Edited 7/9/2008 8:50 pm ET by Framer
Dont' want to start a debate???!!!!! Huh? :)
I always treat every wall and partition with the same royal treatment that they deserve: I analyze each situation and lay it out to maximize the benefits of the 1ayout and minimize my time investment. One size does not fit all...
In the oldend days when T1-11 was the rage, we used to build a lot of houses with brick on the first floor and t1-11 on the second floor. I learned to plan for my groove to eliminate the "slivers" of panel that could occur. In those days, I was working in a contemporary neighborhood and the builder didn't use corner board treatment. To close the corners, I had to rabbet the edge of the T1-11. If the edge of the corner piece was a groove, I'd be in trouble. We used alot of 4" oc T1-11 so the chances of a groove coming in at the corner was high. Planning was key. Plan well and the corners were easy and looked good. Plan poorly and the job would look like the other crew's work.
So, I learned early on in my apprentice career to think about the real goals of every stud layout and the materials that were going to layer over each wall I framed. Sometimes it was critical to get a stud in the center of the wall where a T-11 lap joint occurred, other times it was better to layout for plywood, other times it was critical to layout for the second floor joist.
There are more answers and all are possibly right, and possibly wrong. There might be ten different considerations on any given wall.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
It makes sense to me now Jim. There really is more than one way to skin a cat. Like other mentioned, it just depends on that particular layout you are working on.I mentioned that I did not want a debate because it seems that on the JLC forums if you don't do things like some of the "gurus" on that site you get cut off at the knees for doing it another way and the war of words start flying. I can do without that.
Off with your knees! Actually, the topic is one that has been debated over the years between carpenters over lunch or coffee. It is an interesting and important topic for a variety of reasons. And....I've seen tempers rise over a 3/4" difference of opinion LOL! In the olden days, before trusses, the mark of a good framer was to have the studs line up directly under the ceiling joist or rafters because everything was framed 16" oc. Technically speaking, it wasn't critical, but it looked better on the outside endwalls. That all changed when trusses became the standard method of roof framing...they had 24" centers and often the end jacks on the hip sets had a layout that didn't consistently stay on 24" centers from end to end anyways. The old guys used to argue about wall layouts and occasionally it was pretty amusing. You'd never know someone could get worked up about a wall layout LOL.One of the heated debates was where to put the stud layout on the main wall that typically ran down the center of the house and carried the lapped ceiling joist. Do you put the lap under the center of the lap or under one of the ceiling joists? I vote for putting it under center. That same debate occurs when there is a second floor. Do you put the stud under the center of the lap, or under one or the other joist? Sometimes, I vote for one or the other, depending on how chopped up the plates will be for the mechanicals going through. Other times I vote for centering the stud. It depends on the house. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"the mark of a good framer was to have the studs line up directly under the ceiling joist or rafters"Man, and all this time I thought the mark of a good framer was no bent nails or hammer marks on the lumber!!! LOL.
When you analzye the layouts, everyone will have their own agenda, so one group will love you, the other will hate you and call you a schmuck. Since I knew I never could win with everyone, I always pleased myself! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I shouldn't say "always". In my anal days, I pulled every stud layout in the house from two datum line. YOu could stand in the upstairs and look throught the entire length of the house and see the same studs lined up all the way through. When I came to my senses (I realized that it was a useless, fruitless exercise and waste of lumber), I started consciously analyzing every wall and partion layout and I found countless other more important criteria than my anal "line everything up everywhere" edict. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Yeah Jim I understand. I guess it's different strokes for different folks.