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I just moved to the Minneapolis area from Texas and bought a 1939 capecod style house. The house sits near the airport and has been sound proofed and insulated to keep noise out. Problem is the first night I tried the fireplace, I smoked up the house pretty bad. I’m sure I have a problem with the house being too tight. The city which paid for all the insulation and new windows installed a direct power vent gas water heater in the basement and an air intake hose 5″ that sits near the furnace(gas) and also installed a continuous exhaust fan in the kitchen. My guess is that the fan and the furnace + water heater are causing the backdraft from the fireplace. Even with the chimney top damper closed we still smell soot in the house. If anyone has any tips on what I might try I would appreciate it. It sucks to have a nice firplace you can’t use.
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Light the fire and open a window near the fireplace for a couple minutes. This usually works to reverse the airflow up the chimney.
*Nick:First: it's possible you have far bigger problems than just the fireplace -- Carbon Monoxide. CO can kill; it can also cause significant long term health disabilities at chronic exposure to lower levels.Do you know if the furnace and DHW have been performance tested for proper drafting? They might have been b designed to draft properly, but that doesn't mean they actually do.How does the furnace draft? Induced draft or natural? (Pull the front cover and look for a little blower motor.)Look for 1/4" holes on the flues covered with shiny tape or with plugs in them. They would be evidence that someone's actually tested them with a draft guage.If your furnace is naturally drafted, there's a very good chance it's backdrafting. Some rough tests/checks: Look under the draft hood for significant rust; Also look above the flame shield for rust or stains. With all windows and doors closed (i) With the furnace running, check at the DWH vent outlet for actual flow. Open the garage door (if attached) andrecheck; open each entry door and recheck.If the furnace is induced draft, do the same with it (be careful on the roof!)Better testing would be a Buidling Performace Institute protocol Carbon Monoxide Analysis (that's where they drill the holes in the flue and test with a draft guage.)They won't be listed as such in the yellow pages, but some HVAC people are BPI trained, as well as some home inspectors. (Prices vary widely; expect to pay anywhere between $65 - $150.) Not all "co testing" is worthwhile. If the person testing doesn't get a probe into the flue gasesb andtest the drafting, they aren't doing an effective test. If all they do is test the air and stick their probe in a register, politely thank them for their efforts and as you escort them to the door, suggest that they increase their E&O insurance and read the fine print in their policy to make sure it covers gross ineptitude.Get and use CO detectors with LED readouts: the AIM 935 Low Level CO Monitor appears to be the best currently available (reads lower levels than most) but is hard to find. Look for it at http://www.aeromedix.com/. The best source for info on the Web which I've found on CO detectors is athttp://www.avweb.com/articles/codetect.html For the fireplace, open a window, and before lighting the kindling, semi-crumple a sheet of newspaper, light one end and hold it at the top of the flue damper to start the draft, then light the kindling.Also, be aware that fireplace design is pretty tricky, it's possible the thing never drafted properly.Oh yes, before using the fp, have it cleaned and inspected by a chimeny sweep.Bob
*Good post Bob.This house has the classic symptoms of not enough makeup air. Open a window until you can get a blower door check with all the combustion appliances operating.As for the fireplace, once you have made sure there is enough incoming air for everything else you can either add outside combustion air vents in the fireplace's area. Most times these actually terminate right in the fire box. Or, you can increase the size of your other combustion vents to accomodate the fireplace. Just exactly what to do depends on the kind of fireplace, how it is designed and a lot of other details that can only be answered by an on-site inpection by a qualified person.
*nick,I disagree here with the above posts...Every fireplace that I have used that let smoke out the front had problems with the flue, the firebox, the chimney height and the local terrain including trees and nearby mountains....The only easy cure if the window opened idea proves that it is not make up air is to buy a flue fan that goes on top of the chimney...It will solve your problem immediately and give you smiles for a long long time...You will have to remember to turn it on though a heat sensitive switch might be in the works...Go to a fireplace specialists near you to find one or search the net.near the well drafted stream,aj
*I believe current code, at least in this area, is new wood burning fireplaces have to have fresh air supply coming in from the outside.Code or not, it seems prudent to at least consider modifying an old fireplace to provide fresh air.And maybe this would reduce the amount of conditioned air in the living area getting sucked up the chimney ?Opening a window so a fireplace can be used is perhaps going a little overboard ?
*Is there a contagious disease causing people to not be able to read? The posts preceding mine and mine said to open the window until a check could be made. That means all the time the combustion appliances are being used. It is a safety issue. Now once the check is made then the fireplace can be addressed.Now AJ and Alan maybe you would want to continue to advise someone to live in an apparently dangerously ventilated house and not do anything. But the rest of us wouldn't.
*AJ,I suspect you're right to the extent that the conditions you mentioned are the most i likely causes.b But,if it is a makeup air problem, it seems to me that the flue fan idea is potentially deadly: it could cause the furnace or water heater to backdraft and introduce CO into the interior air.Bob
*Bob...Fred....With the fan...I would add the make up air source and yes, go ahead and check the CO...Add the make up air source....add the make up air source....near the stream,aj
*Bob, Thanks for your detailed comments. It pears that the city has done a blower door test on my place in the past and got results of a leakage ratio of less than 1.0. The results of those tests prompted them to install the direct vent gas water heater, the vent hose and a continuous exhaust fan 30cfm for fresh air requirements. The furnace is brand new, the old one was shot, could it be that this new furnace and water heater plus exhaust fan require more air than previously measured? If so I'm thinking the only solution is a larger air intake to keep the draft from coming down the chimney flue. By the way the furnace is a Lennox induced draft model with evidence of a draft test being performed on it. Any other comments would be appreciated.
*Nick,Tough to say; but I'd have a full Building Performance Institute Carbon Monoxide Analysis Protocol test done.Bob
*NickI'm all for safety, but I think we might have missed the boat. Forget the 'tight'. Forget the 'airport'. Forget the 'CO2'. Focus on the stated problem.I have never seen a house where a fire has already been established and where any of the factors you mentioned had even a minor effect. The power of the updraft from an open fire is enormous. The establishment of one, however, is quite tricky.My house is loose, and the 1947 cracks let air in and out. Sometimes the draft in the fireplace is with me, and sometines it is not.Sometime, I have to reverse a powerful draft, due to the cold temperature of the flue. It sounds that you may have the draft gods against you too. A tight house and a continuous exhaust fan...that means that the normal draft in the flue is downward, and when you want to have a fire, the flue is quite cool from the outside air.Before you spend lots of time and money doing...well... other stuff, try this. Think about the air coming down the flue. You cannot stop it quickly. You must reverese it slowly and methodically.Roll up a single piece of newspaper, not to tight, and light the end. Hold it in the fireplace near the throat but to one side...deliberately to one side. The heat from the paper should form a small rise of hot gas on that edge of the flue.Once you can create a 'river' of hot air rising on one side of the flue, you can progressively change the "net flow" in the flue from down to up. Be patient. Move the paper around. The smoke will tell if your being successful.It may even take several papers to achieve the upflow you need.Depending on how you stack and light a fire, you may need to establish updraft with the paper longer. My fires start quick and burn fierce. I get a real good draft going before I light the 'pyre', lest I want a living room full of smoke and wife.Give it a try. You have nothing to loose, but the sports section.James [email protected]
*Nick:> The power of the updraft from an open fire is enormousExactly. That's why there is a CO concern. He's got a tight house, a continuously running exhaust fan and (apparently) draft induced watre heater and furnace.Those draft inducers aren't all that strong. Add your open fire updraft, and there is a chance of the flue gases being pulled into the house. Even if the furnace and water heater don't produce CO when operating narmally, change the air flow around the burner and they can become major CO producers.> You have nothing to loose, but the sports section.You burn my sports section before I've read and you're going up the flueBob
*Nick- another simple trick, take a piece of aluminum foil or cardboard about 6" wide and to the approx. length corresponding with the width of the firebox opening....secure it to the top of the opening, so that it extends below the angle iron lintle that bridges the firebox opening,(attach it to the face in the event cardboard is used, it is out of harms way).Light a small fire or use the rolled up newspaper (preferably the stock exchange) but in a cone shape, light the small end, turn the broad end up and visually inspect how the smoke rolls up the chimney. a flashlight turned at the right angle, held at the top of the fireplace opening will reveal any backdraft. That is referred to as a lintle extension, available through most sweep or chimney supply companies. It simply downsizes your fireplace opening to allow the draft. Also available are raincap/spark arrestors (not sure of the name, we call 'em "wind beaters")that are designed to increase the draft. I agree with the others, I'm all for safety, but try this before you spend hundreds of $ on this test an that test..... my bill is only 2 bits. jon
*The issue of the furnace and water heater possibly backdrafting need to be addressed. Find a feather or some "angel hair" and hold it where the air is supposed to be flowing. Which way does the air flow?To start a fire, crack open a window, turn off the continuous vent fan, forget the newspaper and instead use a piece of "fire starter" stick (wax impregnated sawdust) and some good dry kindling. Get your fire going, turn the vent fan back on (it will not overcome a draft from a hot fire -- it will work as normal). Then close the window.Now do the airflow test on the furnace and water heater again. Well, are you actually running your furnace with the fireplace in use???
*I've got a question about my boiler. It is apparently about 14 years old, but we've lived in the house only 5 years. This winter, for the first time, we started hearing a tapping noise in the hot water pipes, and traced it to the boiler. We called the HVAC guy whose sticker was on the boiler, he came out and looked at it, and said it is from hard water scale. First he said it was no bid deal, but later he recommended repalcement, at an estimated cost of $4500. My question is this: is there anything we can do to get the lime out short of spending $4500?Thanks for any ideas, nc
*Call more contractors
*I agree somewhat with Alan. Is it possible to introduce fresh air to the fireplace, so that it is burning outside air (and not inside air you've already paid to heat..)? we recently built a home with a full masonry (rumford style) fireplace and ran a 6" PVC pipe from the outside directly in to the firebox (well, obviously not directly in to the firebox- PVC melts..). Works like a charm, as long as the owners close the glass doors and force the fireplace to draw air from the outside.
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I just moved to the Minneapolis area from Texas and bought a 1939 capecod style house. The house sits near the airport and has been sound proofed and insulated to keep noise out. Problem is the first night I tried the fireplace, I smoked up the house pretty bad. I'm sure I have a problem with the house being too tight. The city which paid for all the insulation and new windows installed a direct power vent gas water heater in the basement and an air intake hose 5" that sits near the furnace(gas) and also installed a continuous exhaust fan in the kitchen. My guess is that the fan and the furnace + water heater are causing the backdraft from the fireplace. Even with the chimney top damper closed we still smell soot in the house. If anyone has any tips on what I might try I would appreciate it. It sucks to have a nice firplace you can't use.