I recently purchased Punch Professional Home Design Suite I also have Key CAD and Turbo CAD. Don’t like any of them. D
The problem I am have with punch is that the instructions for it are vague. While trying to draw a foundation wall that has a eight inch 90 degree jog in it I can draw a 1′ jog a 11″ jog a 10″ jog but can not draw a eight inch jog. It keeps reverting to a diaginal.
Is there any design program that is out there that is easy to use and does what it is suppose to.
Replies
no, there isn't.. but i use Chief Architect anyways..
if you want 3-d.. and professional results.. you are somewhat limited to Chief, Softplan.. or Vectorworks... others swear by Autocad light.. or Acad..
but most design / build firms are sticking with the 3 i listed
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Love your response. Too true.
Is there too much of a disconnect between programmers and builders?
Someone is eventually going to make a fortune.
skipj
Look through all the setup and drawing options...see if there is something about a minimum wall length...it might be set to 10".
Do it right, or do it twice.
That is what I thought. If it is there I have not been able to find it yet in the program or manual.
punch is infamous for making it's own internal "corrections" to your work. I've heard that you can fix or over-ride a problem and have it show up again the next time you open the drawing.
That said, Maybe for this particular problem, you could draw tow separate 8" walls that bypass each other, overlapping by 8" to form the jog.
If you are doing this professionally, invest your time in Softplan or Chief. Letting your software makeone single error for you (God knows we make enough of our own without letting the software do it for us) will easily cost more than the total for a good design software, not to mention the agravation and time you have to put into problems like this..
Excellence is its own reward!
For right now this is for myself but In the furture I will be using it for customers for remodels. What I am doing now is the plimanary design for a house for me and my family right now we are just trying to get a floor plan done. The house will be two floors plus basement and that is where I started. Doing so I need the wall to jog out eight inchs then go back in line and I can't make it happen. I have over two hundred dollars in programs and I have found bugs in them all. I know that is not much some have thousands tided up in them but if these things are going to be marketed they should work fully.
No one would buy a brand new stove and be okay with it even though only three of the four burners work!
wally, if it was one house, i'd stick to the drawing boardMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You need to define what you want the program to do. If you only want 2d drafting, there are several programs available that will let you draw exactly what you want, just like the old fashioned drawing boards and pencils. If you want 3d drafting, with automatic textures and perspective views, then that's a whole 'nother animal.
Sounds to me like you only need 2d, if you're drawing the house for yourself and you need to work out the floor plan details etc. My personal pref is AutoCad Lite, which is very good and full featured, but it can be a bear to learn to a proficient level. Others here will tout different programs, and they can make a good case. I have very limited experience in 3d, and I'm struggling to learn Chief. Some people here are good at it. I suspect that I have brain lock, because the programs are different enough that not much carriers over and I'm having trouble unlearning Autocad.
A couple of hundred $ will buy a nice 2d program, and you can get a 3d for twice that. Generally (and there will be those who differ) the programs that you buy in the store are a waste of money.
Do it right, or do it twice.
For now just 2d what I need in the end is just a standard set of prints for the building dept.
Mike I have thought of clearing off all the junk on my old drafting table and booting up the pencil.
Another problem I am having with punch is defining the lot lines. Mine is not a square it is kind of pie shaped. With Punch I can't seem to do old angles.
just some background....
i've been drafting and designing since '70 on a board.. in '85 or so i picked up autocad and struggled... finally gave it up and went back to the board..
in '97 i bought Chief.. but i went to Maine and took a 3 day class..
a year later i went back for a 1-day , one -on-one.. since then i've been ok.. but , there is nothing easy about any of these programs.. and if you split your time between production and design.. it's hard to develop the proficiency of someone who does it for 40 or 60 hours a week..
all of the major programs have user groups .. and a lot of the discussion is about "work-arounds"..
i think Chief is great.. but it is a lot of work... the work is worth it.. we have capabilities for design that most of our competition envies... and the customers are just blown away by our drawings and presentations..
i know, from shows , friends and the internet, that those with proficiency in Softplan, Vectorworks and Autocad ..... all have the same experience.. the programs are powerful, but difficult to achieve high proficiency... unless you are the rare individual who happens to think just like the programmers who wrote the CAD program you're using...
me, i wouldn't go back.. and i won't switch.. but there is nothing easy about CADMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You might want to check out Design Workshop Classic at
http://www.artifice.com/dw_classic.html
if you're looking for a cost-effective 3D modeling tool. For a hundred bucks, it's a pretty interesting package. If you find out you want to get really serious with it, you can upgrade to the Pro version for $499, but the cheaper one will give you the preliminary design tools it sounds like you need now. Formerly BEMW at The High Desert Group LLC
From http://www.designcommunity.com/messages/16434.html
Try these Punch forums.
Punch has several sites for help
http://forums.punchsoftware.com
http://www.punchhelpers.com/
http://www.punch-alternatives.com/
Wally,
I've been working with various CAD programs for fifteen years (AutoCad, Unigraphics, CadKey) They all have "bugs" in them. Often stuff needs to be done in a certain order and certain way. No matter what you do, after you reach a "point of no return", nothing you do will get the program to do what it is supposed to do. Only after lots of experience do you learn ("serendipitously" discover) the work arounds and the proper order of designing things. That is until they come out with the next release. Then it's back to square one (actually more like ten).
Jon
Wally,
I have been enlightened by an architect friend about a program that he really likes a lot, does not cost a ton, and you can preview it all you want for 8 full online hours free.
Check this out:
http://www.sketch3d.com
I haven't used it but I've seen him using it, and it is pretty cool. Only $475 too! You'll find out fast and free if it can make 8" offsets.
Dog
I used Turbo Cad for years, and even beta tested versions 6 and 7. Then I had to go professional, so I went with AutoCad LT. It's a much better user interface, but there is no such thing as an easy CAD program. There can't be because drawing a building completely and accurately is not a trivial activity. Especially since you may have to submit your work to others, I'd recommend AutoCad LT, because it produces the most standard and reliable files for interchange with other programs.
-- J.S.
I am soaking all of this in and everyone has come up with good suggestions. Easy is not what I am after, I realize that there is a learning curve to it . What I want is one that is with out bugs first then ease of use second.
wally.. i used to subscribe to vectorworks user group.. and Chief's.. i couldn't subscribe to Softplan.. you have to be a registered owner.. but they all seem to wrok the same way..
they build on the current version.. their r&d has a chinese laundry list of new features they want to match from the competition, adn from thier programmers, and their power users.. then they write the new version and a select list of power users Beta test it..
they work out all the bugs.. then they release it.. the cycle is about 16 - 18 months.. after the new release the grunt users Gamma test it in the real world.. and all of the conflicts start to show up...they create fixes and release patches.. in chiefs last version.. they got to 8.06.. the current version has been out a month..
9.0 is is the most bug-free release i've seen, but it's not without it's conflicts.. they would never expand thieir base if they don't constantly improve.. and they can't possibly tell beforehand how hardware and users will find new ways to stress the program..
bug-free... never happen.. not if you want improved product... not with something as powerful as a 3-d cad program..bugs, patches , and work-arounds seem to be the norm...
i don't know of anyone with those programs who would revert to an older version once the patches are released.... most just operate with the older version until the griping settles down on the user groups.. then they upgrade.. i always upgrade as soon as the releases come out, so i can get all of the early-bird discounts.. i load it and put it in a seperate directory ..
seems like you can have it simple... or bug free..... or powerful.. powerful seems to win every time
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
i would like to jump in on this as well, i am also looking for design and build software and am intrigued by not being able to be proficient at it if not working 40 hrs at design, there must be something for contractors to solve problems both in the field and at the design stage with
skids..... i'm pretty proficient with Chief.. and i don't use it 40 hours / week... i'd guess the same could be said for Softplan & vectorworks & Acat Lt...
Acad (real acad ) is not a good program for homebuilders.. it is more for engineers.. and it requires a lot of training.. it is not 3-d so everything must be drawn.. most of the 3-d programs draw objects.. not lines..
the more training and use.. the higher level of proficiency..
BTW.. most of these programs have working demos.. like Chief.. you just can't print..
here's the site for Chief.. you can download a demo there
http://www.chiefarch.com/Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike
I like auto cad but your right it ain't for home design
It does have 3-d capabilities though, they are not very good, in that they are a little hard to learn, and you are limited in materials for rendering etc. but they are there.
This picture was done on autocad ages ago, well really 4 years ago, be warned the file is huge and I do not have a program to shrink it.
If you don't have high speed, don't bother trying to look
the back drop was stolen off the web, the trees and such are from the programs library.
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professional build the Titanic.
Edited 10/15/2003 7:00:42 PM ET by CAG
I thought you had downloaded irfanview by now, good buddy.
Just use it to open your file - save as - JPG - check new file size and re-size if needed - then save again giving it a new name..
Excellence is its own reward!
There are hundreds things I should have done by now, what you don't like 2 meg files???
When I get back from Chicago, I'll do it, and I'm off to the airport.... Later ya'll
Oh yeah, that's the "low" res. version, the high res is a lot bigger
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professional build the Titanic.
Edited 5/15/2003 1:17:46 PM ET by CAG
> Acad (real acad ) is not a good program for homebuilders.. it is more for engineers.. and it requires a lot of training.. it is not 3-d so everything must be drawn..
The full $3000 Acad is 3-d, the $350 lite version is mostly 2-d, with limited support for isometrics. I use LT 2000i, which is fine for plans and elevations. It really isn't any harder to learn than Turbo was. Anything that can really do the job is going to have a significant learning curve.
The one time I tried to do something with 3-d, I found the best solution was to take a picture of the house with a digital camera, and create the enclosed front porch in Adobe Photoshop.
-- J.S.
here's some 3-D i used for a presenttation.. i never bothered to clean it up so there are some anomalies...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I use Softplan and I think it is really easy compared to other programs I have tried to learn. I am pretty good at logic and self teaching from the book but I got up and productive in maybe fifty hours. you never stop learning and getting better tho.
Some times I work sixty hours in a week on it and other times I will go for weeks without openning it unless I need to check a dimension or something.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
thanks mike and piffin i appreciate the advice and will try them both.
I never mentioned it but I am a Mac guy by tradition. But my wife is a windows person it is like a republican and democrat living together enough said. But we just got a new Windows machine and my mac is get older ( performa 6115 with a sonnet G3 card that runs at300Mzh for those who care).
But maybe this is one for Apple to Solve next. If then can bring the world I-tunes and make music editing so easy that a child can do it Why can't they revolutionize the Cad world?
But the only mac programs I have seen for Mac are Abracadata Design Your Own Home Suite
Once again I meant for my last post to be to all. I keepforgetting to do that!!!!
VectorWorks is built for Macintosh. Or visit http://www.architosh.com/ and snoop around the forum. Lots of options. Don't give in to the dark side--save your marriage and get an iMac. Ditto the sentiments prior that all CAD is non-trivial to become proficient with...
"Don't give in to the dark side--save your marriage and get an iMac"
what's next? building houses out of concrete, you'll probably make them round as well!bobl Volo Non Voleo
If he weren't a Philly sports fan, I'd say he's just completely nuts. Um.. wait,. never mind. He is nuts.If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.
Mom's always said I don't think straight...
been looking at Sketchup tutorials
they have one of them mac versions of the program
bobl Volo Non Voleo
I looked at it once and have been reading their newsletter. Can't remember my reaction, but likely I didn't find them able to easily represent the shapes I need faster than I do with VW. Still, wouldn't mind watching over the shoulder of someone proficient with it.
No program of the level of complexity of CAD will ever be truly without bugs. From direct experience, I can only assure you that AutoCad LT is substantially less buggy than TurboCad. In Auto, I may have a minor annoyance a couple times a year. I've never lost any work due to an AutoCad bug. In Turbo, I had names for the bugs I reported, and they never fixed. I worked around those bugs every day until I switched.
-- J.S.
I develope software for industrial control.
The main program has a 25 year history And some modules in the existing code base are 10-15 years old.
But changes and features are still being added.
But there is always the time where I am check on something and find a section of code that is at least 10 years old and realized that it has never worked right.
And either no one every used that particular combination or they did not realize how is was suppose to work. This is all for a dedicated client so I would hear about any "known" problems that they had.
I use a well known program that is simple and bugs are fixed by the user whenever they arise.
Kind of old, but time tested and very reliable.
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
My attachment didn't load!!
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
t... when are you gonna get the upgrade to the auto-pencil ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I own a Computer Integration business and work with many differnet types of CAD systems, most of the 3D software my customers use runs $10,000.00 plus. But I have done a fair amount of design myself with AutoCad 13 and AutoCad LT. I have a customer who is using Punch and he seems to like it and is able to do quite a bit without any training. I hired an Architect a while back to design a house for me. He was so bad I had to fire him. Fortunetly I made sure he did everything in AutoCad, which is completely compatible with AutoCad LT. I just used my AutoCad LT to make all the changes (redesign most everything) and I was done. That's the big advantage to AutoCad is that it is used by many Architects. We sell AutoCad LT for $399.00. You can also get their symbol package. AutoCad LT is strictly 2D, no fancy graphics. I use an Epson 12x19 ink jet to do my drawings. If your working with a number of other sources AutoCad may be the best choice.
> We sell AutoCad LT for $399.00.
That's a good price. I've heard of it for $350 at computer faires, and in retail stores it's generally about $600 - 650.
I have LT 2000i, what price can you give me on an upgrade to the 2004 version?
Thanks --
-- J.S.
Sorry, the price I quoted was for the Academic version. I checked my pricing for the upgrade and all I have is pricing for the Academic versions right now. I'll get with my supplier to see what I can do.
Hi Wally,
Punch Pro has some bugs, but I guess it is a great software. I used it a lot, after I upgraded to Platinum and some months ago, I upgraded to Punch AS 18.
I am attaching a 3D image I did some time ago (water effects I did with Corel)
Good luck!!!
pmgca
I don't have a lot of eperience with it, but I am impressed by Pro/DESKTOP's Help files, and the price was right...when I downloaded it they were giving free registration to the first 1,000,000 users as a promotion. http://www.ptc.com/
It also geneerates take-off's, integrates with Excel, and uses constraints, assemnlys and abunch of neat stuff I haven't gotten into yet.
Hope this helps ya,
SamT
Architectural Desktop by Autodesk is about the best there is. It is expensive and very difficult to learn but completely untouchable in the hands of an experienced designer. Combine it with 3D studio Viz and you can not only design your clients house but give them a walk through tour of the house sitting on their site, with their favorite movie playing on the virtual tv and steam coming off their favorite meal sitting on the virtual table in their new virtual dining room...
... for a price and tons of practice time of course.
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
You are so right about the steep learning curve and cost for Architectural Desktop and Viz. For cost reasons I've migrated to IntelliCAD. Been pretty impressed so far, especially considering the cost. IntelliCAD 4 is being released now- it has solid modeling capability. There's an add on program for IntelliCAD called Arch T that resembles Architechural Desktop that I hope to get this summer. Arch T was originally written for AutoCAD and there's still a version for it. Caligari has TrueSpace which I hope will do for IntelliCAD what Viz does for Acad. I don't have the deep pockets Autodesk products require and hope that these programs will give me most of the capabilities of Architectural Desktop and Viz for a lot less money.
http://www.autodsys.com/ http://www.cadopia.com/products/icadMS.asp