WarmBoard radiant floor heating experie
Jake69
| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on
Does anyone have experience with this product? I noticed their ad in the most recent issue of FHB for the first time and showed it to a client. We are about to embark on a gut renovation of a 5 story brownstone and I am recommending radiant heat throughout. The client is skeptical mainly because of accumulated experiences with plumbing leaks over the years (they are landlords).
I would like anecdotes regarding experiences, pros and cons, on this product and other installation types so that we may evaluate the options.
Thanks for your input
Robb
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
– Benjamin Franklin
Replies
Robb,
I am looking for the same info on Warmboard. I went to their website and got nothing so I don't know if that is a good sign. I will watch for other input.
Thanks
Bill
Check the archives. A Warmboard rep named Barry LaDuke used to hang here and he was a good guy. Haven't seen him in a while though.
I think a pro was that it was responsive (especially compared to a high-mass system). Con was cost.
Rob, I looked into warmboard but was way too expensive for me. I was quoted $4.50/sq.ft just for the board. I decided to go with a product called Thermofin.
Post your question on the "wall" at http://www.heatinghelp.com, those guys are radiant experts. -Ed
Warmboard is an excellent product, though as has already been mentioned, it is a tad expensive.
Depending on layout, sometimes the board joints need to be supported by between-joist blocking. After install, the tubing should be installed. Unless you protect the tubing and board, it's possible it can be damaged by other trades working on the job.
Thermally, it's a very good...no, it's an excellent product. Practically, there are some installation limitations. Financially it is a bit pricey.
Have you had any long term (>10 years) experience with this or similar in-floor heating products? What are the reasonable expectations for longevity? How prone to leakage due to minor installation irregularities or abuse? When is the system likely to exhibit signs of failure? What do those signs look like; is it major flooding or does the affected tube run dry loosing just a minor amount of fluid?
My clients concern is that they will come home after a few weeks of travel to find that a small leak on the top floor has run down through the floors below (causing major damage to multiple finish systems). They had just this experience with an icemaker in their built in refrigerator. It cost a few hundred to repair the fridge but about 20 thousand in collateral damage to custom flooring and plaster ceiling finishes - not to mention the disruption of the repairs.
I'm interrested in thoughts, experiences, and opinions from everyone.
TIA
Robb
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
Robb,
The first RFH install I did was in '95.
The first time I used Warmboard was last year. One thing I dislike about Warmboard is that the tubing is exposed to construction damage. Damage is unlikely, but it has happened.
Realize that RFH runs at about 12psi, compared to domestic water pressure (ice maker, for instance) running at 40-50 psi if the house is on it's own well, and up to 80psi if the house is linked to a town/city water supply.
All PEX runs should be installed so that there are NO unions/joints in floors, or in walls, or in joist bays. All tubing runs should be of the "homerun" variety...starting and ending at a commonly accessible manifold, usually in the basement of the house. Any tubing that is enclosed in the framing should be a continuous run of tubing.
Will the tubing fail on it's own due to overload from water temp/pressure? No. I usually don't use absolutes, but I will in this case. Again, I'm referring to quality tubing, cross-linked via the Engel method.
Can a PEX union/manifold connection leak from poor installation? Yes. I've never had one leak, but I'm sure it could happen.
Can tubing be damaged in the installation, or afterwards...yes. Again, I've never had any problems, but I've heard of them. After installation, the tubing should be pressure tested with air to discover any suprises before it's pressurized with water.
I recommend RFH with no reservations whatsoever. It's the best heating system available. Most comfortable. Easiest on the house. Easiest on the body.
I have it in my house. And if I didn't, I'd rip out what I had and install RFH.
Most systems have a water make-up valve installed that will replenish the water in the system if the system falls below a certain operating pressure...say, 12 psi. So, yes, if you did have a leak, theoretically, it could leak while you're on vacation. Realize that if the PEX is embedded in a slab, it's not going to be a gusher of a leak...just a slow wetting of the area. If you had a staple-up or some other dry installation, yes, a leak could leak quite a bit of water. Still...I'd have to say the only way you could get a leak was from damage during or after install, or damage caused by a poor installation. I honestly can't see the tubing failing of it's own accord. A staple-up installation (tubing stapled to the bottom of the subfloor) would only expose upper floors to leak damage, as any leak in the first-floor tubing would simply leak into the basement.
You could turn the water off to isolate the loops/manifolds/system if leaving the house for an extended period of time. If it's the heating season and the climate is unusually cold, an anti-freeze additive can be added when the loops are filled for freeze protection. If it's to be added, it's typically done during the initial filling. Still, it's highly unlikely that the fluid in the tubing would freeze even without a glycol solution. And, if it did, PEX, unlike copper, does have some flex in it to absorb the expansion.
re - Most systems have a water make-up valve installed that will replenish the water in the system if the system falls below a certain operating pressure...say, 12 psi.
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Hi, Mongo -
I think something needs to be mentioned as a precautionary measure worth considering.
There may be some varying viewpoints on open or closed automatic fill valves. (I use mine only when refilling the system after a drain.)
It may be better to not leave the automatic fill valve open once you are certain the system does not have any leaks and it is properly pressurized.
If left open and there is a leak, continuous introduction of makeup water will cause premature corrosion in the (cast iron) heat exchangers, etc. if the water doesn't get a chance to go "dead".
A low water cutoff switch such as Guard Dog can be incorporated as a safety measure and this will give a clue of a water loss in the system.
A continuous slow leak that is replenished with an open fill valve may not give you a heads up until damage has been done to the system.
I'm waiting for WetHead's take on this as I know he would have something to say about this.
Alan
Alan,
Valid point, good post.
Thanks, Mongo -
All credit goes to the gang at The Wall and Dan Holohan's books.
In my case it was a combination of deteriorated underslab section of piping (from the 1950s) that was causing water and pressure loss, and a defective fill valve that wasn't regulating the pressure and causing the check valve to bleed water.
Bypassed the underslab sections and installed a new fill/check valve assembly but only after much head scratching and a season of noisy pipes.
It's been two heating seasons and I occasionally peek at the pressure gauge on the boiler throughout the year.
Take care,
Alan