I’m having a problem with a washing machine drain that I need help in fixing. The photos show the drain line. I think the vertical pipe after the trap goes upstairs to the kitchen sink, the red label is the inspection approval sticker from the town. The issue is that when the washing machine drains, the flow of water overflows the drain pipe. If you stop the machine before the water reaches the top of the pipe, the water quickly drains right out and you can start the machine again. I believe the drain pipe is plenty big enough for the water volume and I have snaked the pipe to the main waste line and it is clear. This is a new house for me and I don’t know if this ever worked correctly for the former owners. I’m thinking it is an air problem. Any suggestions on how to fix this?
George
Replies
This is a fairly common problem. The flow from the washing machine simply overwhelms the drain's capacity.
From the copper plumbing I'm guessing this home is 40-50 years old. It would be wise to power-snake the entire drain line from washing machine out to the yard. Crud (especially washing machine scum) builds up in the lines and impedes flow, without creating anything close to a full clog. (I have to do this in our 30-year-old home every 5-10 years.)
Beyond that about all you can do is restrict the output of the washer somehow, or install a laundry sink to act as a "buffer".
It is wise to assure that the hose connection to the standpipe is not too tightly sealed, so that some air can get in. If necessary insert some sort of spacer or a short piece of stiff tubing between the output hose and the lip of the standpipe, to provide "breathing room".
Looking at your pictures a bit more, it appears that that horizontal run may not be properly sloped. It should be sloped about 1/4" to the foot, and it looks a hair short of that. Measure the slope, and if it's closer to 1/8" to the foot it might be wise to adjust the slope (by cutting the vertical vent connection, removing a short piece, and reconnecting with a coupling).
More slope than 1/4" to the foot, however, won't likely help.
To small a pipe should be 2", to low a stand pipe height, should be 42" above floor. To much water in to short a time.
Here's what will work, not perfect but. I've done it on a couple of rentals because of the same problem.
Get a copper 3/4" to 1/2" reducer and you need to be able to insert it into the pipe so it doesn't jump out so you need to make a piece of pipe about 4"s long. And here's what it looks like.
3/4" copper coupling,4"s of 3/4" copper pipe,3/4"x1/2" copper reducer. The coupling end goes into the drain hose cause the Od of the coupling is 7/8s" and use a hose clamp to hold it leak free. Then the reducer slows the gpm flow to an acceptable amount. You'll get some howling from the plumbing purists but this is a cure that won't cause you any problems.
What does reducing the flow from the washer do to the washing machine pump? Seems like it could shorten its life.
I can't believe there isn't a plumbing solution to this other than adding some sort of overflow catch basin (sink). If a new house was getting built, how would the line be plumbed to avoid the problem?
George
Caution first part is snark.
Well it depends on what the cost of water all over the house in the current configuration is.
Couple of things, it's really a cost annalisis.Replace drain with 2"$?.
Only cause I have been into a washing machine do I know. The pump as we think of it is not the pump we think it is. It's a ? I can't remember what it's called but it's not a displacement pump/piston or scroll, it's a cheap arz sling pump? Kinda like a swamp cooler pump. So It doesn't cause it to fail. I had the same concerns.
Also as I said above, the solution is to size the drain properly.
Centrifugal Pump, Ahh that's what I was trying to remember.
Make sure that gizmo (about a foot to the left of the standpipe) that looks like a cleanout is really a cleanout and not a check valve. (Looks more like a cleanout in the pictures, but not quite clear enough to say for sure.)
What is the outside diameter of that copper?
It's a cleanout. I didn't actually measure it but I think that the pipe is 2". As far as snaking it, the house, ~30 years old, has a new Title V septic system (Massachusetts) so I think everything from the house to the yard should be pretty clear.
As long as it will not cause any damage to the machine, I'll probably just install the reducer ; though having a utility sink down there is not a bad idea, but those questions are for another note.
George
> As far as snaking it, the house, ~30 years old, has a new Title V septic system (Massachusetts) so I think everything from the house to the yard should be pretty clear."Pretty clear" is not the same thing as clear, when it comes to washing machine output. If the pipes under the floor weren't replaced, they're likely lined with scum, as is the horizontal pipe we can see.A 3/4" buildup of scum on the bottom of a pipe won't make any difference for most other uses, but can easily cause backups when the washing machine is spewing forth.If the OD of the pipe is 2" then it's probably 1-3/4 pipe.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
I like to go with the simplest things first...
1. Is that hose a tight fit to the copper? It shouldn't be. You need an air gap so the line is vented.
2. It looks like you've got 5' of horizontal line that's got no pitch. It's parallel to the mortar joint the whole way.
I'd cut the line, add a coupling, give it some pitch, and solder. While the line is open you'll be able to see if it's all loaded up with soap scum. I'd also think about giving that much pipe a little support near the end.
They're the two basic places I'd start to check...
Hope it helps... Buic
It is not tight. Taking the hose out of the pipe completely had no effect. Changing the slope is the first thing I will do. It is pretty flat right now. The picture is deceiving and makes it look like there is more slope then there is. If it should slope 1/4" per foot, then there should be about a 2" drop from the washer to the waste line. I know what to do at the washer end but what about at the waste line end? Do I need to change that connection to adjust the slope or can I just cut the standpipe and raise the horizontal section?
George
"I know what to do at the washer end but what about at the waste line end? Do I need to change that connection to adjust the slope or can I just cut the standpipe and raise the horizontal section? "
By the washer, you will need to cut 2" out of the vertical line, and repair with a coupling, so that you can raise it.
On the left side you don't want to raise that end. 4" to the right of that angled fitting, you might try cutting the line and putting in a straight coupling. There might be enough play in the fit to lift the other end the 2" you need. If so just solder it in.
If not you'll need to play with a couple of angled fittings, in the same spot, to give you the pitch you need...
Buic
Look at the system and keep it as simple as possible.
Was it originally working? What changed
Over time the new washers discharge lint to the drain, old style had a filter cleanout. This can build up in the horizontal runs. And you have a very flat run.
Also an older machine may not pump as many gpms as the newer machines. Resulting in the problem.
Go with the simple stuff before you start cutting and patching.
I can't see the washer, but front loaders use much less water. Maybe that would help.
I also wonder about the air issue. Does that hose seal tight? If it does, can you try something to test the air issue? Like some type of coupling to hold the washer hose, but let air in?
I guess this is the reason that horizontal drain lines for washers now require 3" pipe, at least here in Columbus.
Good luck! I didn't read all the responses, so if everyone else said the same thing, my apologies.
I have a 1950's ranch and from the day I moved in, I had the same sort of laundry overflow problem with 2" OD copper waste line, and I have a front loading machine. They do use less water, but it would seem that they pump out the water at least as fast as a top loader. I think that new machines in general probably just pump out water faster than older machines.As to the OP's problem, I tried snaking as well, both the line to the main and the vent, both to no avail. What DID work is some enyme drain cleaner that was advertised to break down soap residue. I picked it up in desperation in the plumbing aisle of Home Despot (don't remember the brand unfortunately, but it was a powder). Per the instructions, I poured it in with some water, let it sit for 30 minutes, and immediately after that, through the present, it has drained like a champ with nary a hint of any slowness or backing up of the washer output for almost 1 year now (knock on wood).
Edited 7/6/2006 6:58 pm ET by Ken37
Ken,
How did you do the enzyme thing? Through an empty load in the washer or otherwise? We had a main line clean out due to tree roots and when the washer is working, we have blooping from the drain and the nearby toilet. The roots have been the problem in the past, but calling them one week later with the same issue, it was flowing full. I have a few days before my 30 day warranty on the clean out is up, and still have the blooping, but with not overflow from the drain. Please do tell more, quickly, as I want this to go away! Thank you.
I used the enzyme cleaner by removing the washer house from the drain, pouring it in followed by a gallon or so of water. Then I let it sit like that for 30 minutes or so. I don't think You'd want to run a cycle through the washer, as it would push the cleaner past the are of partial blockage.
Thanks, Ken.
Tell me, do you think that if I poured some of the product in the floor drain directly in front of the washer, letting it sit and following up with the water, and the block is beyond that point it might work? Or is your technique because you felt the clog was directly between the washer drain and area where it connects to the drainage pipes?
Also, can you tell me the name of the brand of enzyme product you used?
My washer drains fine, it's the floor drain and the adjacent powder room toilet blooping in my case, so I am thinking my problem starts a bit further from where the washer hose drain connects (only about 6-8 feet to the floor drain area). I'm plumbing challenged - except to the point where I can write checks to the real plumbers! Thanks in advance for further advice.
Yep, I've also had some success at this using a drain cleaner. Definitely you don't want to use an acid or lye cleaner, especially with the copper, but one containing a peroxide chemical (like "Clog Gone") seems to be at least modestly effective against the soap scum buildup. I doubt that enzymes, per se, will do much.Note, I suspect folk are getting the wrong impression of what I mean when I say to snake it out. This isn't simply running a manual snake down the thing to poke a hole through a clog, but a good power snake that will scrape the walls clean. Be sure to run water through the pipes continuously as you snake it out.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
The drain cleaner I use is called Green Blaster. It takes two 1/2 cup applications, one right after the other. It is designed for slow flowing drains and works pretty well for me.
You may to check out the vent stack, too, some strange things can get in there, and it doesn't take much to slow the flow.
Good Luck
You could have a partially clogged lateral. A washer dumps more water than anything in the house and will show a problem first. Try draining a bathtub full of water, and before it is empty, drain the washer. If it starts flooding right off, the main lateral probably needs snaked.
Your over my head now, better to post to all.
After renovating the kitchen I have some more information on this problem. When I pulled out a base cabinet, I found that the wall was open and there was a capped pipe. It looked like there was possibly a sink there that was moved. The capped pipe is the vertical pipe that is next to the washer drain, shown in the fist picture in the original note. Could this capped pipe be the reason that the washer is not draining properly?
George
Uncap it and give it a try with the washer you might find that it is a venting problem. If so, you will need to connect this vent line.
Not sure what you mean by connect the vent line. If I uncap it and the problem goes away, then it is the vent line, and nothing else is necessary, right? The pipe is about 8 feet long, ending about 2 feet up the first floor wall and is now sheetrocked in (done before I figured out what it was). Rather than open the wall and uncap it, I am thinking of just cuttng it in the basement, leaving about a 4 ft length, and seeing if that solves the problem. Is there a recommended length for a vent pipe like this?
George
Is there a recommended length for a vent pipe like this?
Yes, vent pipes have to reach all the way up and out the roof. Otherwise you will be letting sewer gases into the house.
Well, usually you can connect up with another vent higher up in the wall or in the attic.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Yes, "we" know that is possible. But the statements/questions made by the OP sounds like they do not know this at all. Could result in a dangerous situation.
Whether a straight run or tied in with another vent (of proper size), it still has to get outside the house.
Actually, I do know that but wasn't thinking. Thanks for the reminder. What I will do is open the pipe to see if that solves the problem. If it does then I'll run the vent pipe outside. If not, I'll recap it, surrender, and call the plumber.
As far as running the vent outside, rather than trying to extend this up through the roof, I would run it across the basement (about 8 feet) and outside through the sill. Does this sound acceptable? Does a horizontal run of a vent pipe require any slope?
George
No, the vent has to exit at roof level, so that odors and poisonous gases from the sewers don't get sucked into the house through a window.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Can you use AAVs in your area? Wouldn't require another hole in the wall and will keep the gas contained.
AAV= Air Admittance Valve aka Studor valve/vent.
AAV= Air Admittance Valve aka Studor valve/vent.
Studor valve is what you want as it is gravity operated and will not wear out and fail.
AAV's use a rubber diaphram and spring and will eventually fail (may take many years but it will happen). AAV's are ment to be a temporary fix until proper venting can be plumbed.
Studor valves are a code approved venting method in many areas of the country.
The Studor valve is an Air Admitance Valve."STUDOR, INC is the distributor of the Studor¯ brand of Air Admittance Valves (AAVs) for the plumbing industry in the USA, Canada, Mexico and Puerto Rico."http://www.studor.com/
Right. What I was trying to say was that there are two different types of valves and one of them is a temporary fix. Studor is what he needs to be using if his local code permits AAVs.
If he ignores the local codes(not recommended) he still should use a Studor AAV.