All,
Converting an apartment building to condos. Installing stack washer/dryers in the each unit. Electing to go w/ gas dryers verses electric….but need to decide on the washer type… “older” models with agitators or the new front loader w/ tumble action. With rebates etc, the new models are less than 20% more; but have energy and water efficiency which translate to ROI of less than a year.
Heard there were issues w/ the new washers install in second floor location (e.g. not on concrete). Thoughts? What about the front seal?
Just soliciating thoughts…
Ted
Replies
Most people seem to like the front loaders -- they're easier on the clothes, get them cleaner, spin them drier, use less water, use less detergent, etc.
There have been some complaints in the past (haven't heard anything recently) that the Maytag units would get mildew on the gaskets if the doors were left latched for a long time between loads.
For rental units there's also the problem that if someone uses standard detergent in a front loader they'll cause it to foam up and possibly make a mess. May require some 2x4 education.
Any washer not on concrete should be installed with a drain pan under it.
However, the problem of leaking seals is virtually unheard of (though no doubt someone could abuse a unit to cause this). Way back when, Bendix made the very first viable home washer and it was a front loader. They never had any problem with the seals, but GE ran a scare campaign about leaks and basically put Bendix out of the washer business.
I stayed in an extended stay hotel last year. The washers were front loaders and took standard detergent. The seemed to work fine.
My only problem was that the wash cycle was about 25 minutes and the dryer cycle was nearly an hour. So it was a frequent problem that people waited with completed wash waiting for the person ahead of them to finish drying. I recommend putting in twice as many dryers as washers.
Oops, forget that. I just reread your post and see that you'll be putting a set in each unit.
I believe that problem is due to goofy venting. These things ae usually in an inside closet with no direct path out. Either going up or down results in a lot of turns and length.
This is an application where the venting efficiency has to be planned in early. Or you'll pay for extra gas later.
I must be missing something. If you're going to stack them, wouldn't the washer and dryer both have to be front loaders?
There's a style where the dryer is on a sort of "hutch" shelf, allowing you to open a top-loading washer about halfway.
I have yet to find a downside to my front load washer. And I didn't really believe it when people said that it gets clothes cleaner. Then I had to use a regular after using mine for a year. What an amazing difference. I'll never have another top loader.
Rob Kress
I was just starting to shop for these for a new house. Do you recommend a particular brand? They all seem very expensive, but like you others I know rave about their cleaning ability...
We have the sears he3, which is the whirlpool i think, and we love them.
One of the specs I was told to look for is the spin cycle speed. The higher the speed, the more water is extracted from the clothes and the faster they dry when you put them in the dryer. Saves more money.Frank
That makes complete sense...I will use that as a parameter when I compare. All these new features can get daunting.
part of it is ; are they reliable- a $200 or more repair on a fl would blow water coats.
top loaders are pretty trouble free (whirlpool, maytag)
I wouldreally like to see the math calculations on the big savings in water.water is really cheap in many places.
DW vetoes front loaders ergonomically. We ended up with Fisher Paykel. Priced like a top loader, which it is, but as efficient as a front loader. Including incredible spin that leaves clothes amazingly dry.
I'd never heard of them until doing web searching. 2 hrs later we were off to buy one, from Lowe's no less. We're tickled.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
All good information. I'm still leaning to front loaders regardless of ergonomics as they are said to use less water and I gain all the space on top of them for folding. Good to hear the FP washer is better than their drawer dishwashers.
Any thoughts/info on Bosch?
If you want a front loader, that's fine. Read about them, the FP is as efficient as a front loader. Very different from other top loaders. Don't know anything about the drawer dishwashers.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
just ordered the Bosch intigrated DW for the new kitch I'll be installing in Jan here.you see no controls, theyre intigrated behind the wood front I'll be putting on the door..rather pridey at over $900 but w/ my contractor discount I save maybe $200..suppose to be harder to install for some reason but from all I've talked to its top shelf.
Be well
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life.—Robert Louis Stevenson
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
You'll be happy with it...quiet as a mouse and cleans very well. It (and the Kitchenaid with the hidden controls - which I have) are harder to install. I can't explain why, they just cause some headaches - the toe kick in particular. (I went with Kitchenaid for they racking system. Otherwise, they're practically identical.)
If you are adding a cabinet panel, I saw an article in the Kitchens and Baths issue of FH where the carpenter used matching baseboard for the toe kick and installed roller catches, so you could still get it out for repairs. Brilliant!
BTW - since we were talking about front load W/D, what's your opinion on that? Everyone seems to have one which is helping me a lot!
I've had both but I'd recommend the top loader I just bought over the front loader because.... the reasons people like the front loaders so much is because of its energy saving aspects.
The washer I got has the exact same energy features and more.
low water useage and little detergent necessary....the advantage of mine is that it holds larger loads and you dont have to bend over to get things out the same way.
The larger capacity is a big plus as well as the fact that it spins the clothes so damn fast you almost dont need the dryer....kidding.but not kidding all that much.
Its also less expense to buy.
Be well...washed and dried
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life.—Robert Louis Stevenson
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I assume the ergonomic problem is having to bend over to load and unload? You can build a platform to get them up off the floor. You'd want it to be pretty stout (ref other posts here about vibration), but a competent framer should be able to do that. And you don't even have to waste the space underneath. It can be storage. Unless you make the platform solid concrete.
Well, I do live in an all concrete house....
When I started my washer search I was under the assumption that only front loaders were very efficient. Turns out that's wrong. Mine has the same government energy certification of the front loaders.
Your assumption about bending over is correct. I also see no benefit to a front loader, especially after comparing results with a friend who has one. Most of the front loaders were significantly more expensive than the Fisher Paykel, which also doesn't use the 2 parts I've replaced in the past: belt and transmission.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
VaTom
Thats funny.before reading your post I wrote almost the exact same thing you did..the Fisher Paykel wins hands down.an amazing machine!!!!The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life.—Robert Louis Stevenson
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
We have the whirlpool duet version. Yes, it is more expensive than a regular washer and we were a little sceptical before we got it. But we were willing to shell out that much money cause we are cloth diapering and suspected it would do a better job of cleaning and save us a little money in utilities. And boy does it clean well.
Rob Kress
I believe the guts of the 3.1 cu ft units are all made by fridgidaire. This includes Sears and one other brand, maybe maytag. As I said in a previous post, they are expensive up front but pay for themselves quickly. The big decision is how many load and temp combos you want. I think we have 4 different loads and 7 different temps on ours. Once you get one you will understand why the rest of us rave about them, and we are guys for our holy savior's sake. ;-)
For economics, the front loader wins hands down. Major reduction in the amount of water used and in the drying time. I figure the reduction in utility cost will pay for the washer in 3 years. We have a state energy efficiency tax rebate of 25% so the washer cost was about $480. I'm pretty sure this tax rebate is only for end users in their own home. Have had the unit for two years and no leaks. They do vibrate like mad in the final spin, and as another mentioned, they need about 1/2 of the detergent. First load was pretty foamy but did not make a huge mess outside the machine, we just needed to wash again with no detergent. The kid is nearly 2 and we are still on the original mega-bottle of Deft.
I guess the real question is who will save on the lowered energy costs and water utilization.
I pointed out to my wife that this is an example of where wealthy people actually make money by being able to buy the better unit up front. A poor person will buy a standard washer or a used washer for maybe 1/4 to 1/2 the price of a high efficiency unit. But over the course of 10 years that standard washer will end up costing the poor person 3X what the high efficiency unit cost.
Question I would have, is how do you remove the water from a front loader when the extraction pump goes bad? Open the door, and have 20 gallons of water on the floor?
A top loader can be emptied manually....
I think the "problem" you are referring to is "excessive" vibration; I know our front loader spins at a helluva clip, it is on the ground floor, on an outside wall (tji floor joists, running parallel to the wall the washer backs on to)....I can see that if this sucker was in the middle of a relatively open span, the floor would probably bounce.
When the washer is running, if I'm in the basement (unfinished), I can hear it running and notice a small amount of vibration. If you're putting them in condo units, make sure they are in a well supported floor area, or I think you'll regret it.
On the other hand, they do wash better and are easier on the clothes.
Couple more thoughts.
1. Tom: If we shut off the frontloader in mid-cycle, the water level does not come up higher than the bottom of the door. So unloading with pump failure should not be a problem.
2. Less water and detergent into a septic system is a good thing. Especially if it is an old marginally functioning one.
3. We use even less than half the amount of detergent. About a tablespoon of liquid per load.
4. One feature I love is that in the spin cycle, if the load is unbalanced, the machine slows down until the load shifts and is more balanced, then continues at warp speed. The top loader we had would simply shut off with an unbalanced load. Very frustrating when you go to throw the next load in and the first one is not done because the previous load did not spin out.
5. We had a problem with mildew smell, but we found that a couple things fixed it. First, we used less detergent. even if it is not all foamed up, there still may be too much detergent. The detergent will not completely disolve and some remains in the machine and begins to smell. The other thing was to run it generally at the "warm/warm" setting. This helps the detergent to disolve. (We used to run it mostly on "cold/cold").
6. Ours is on the second floor. 2x10's 16" OC, spanning 8', with 3/4" OSB glued and nailed. It does vibrate a little bit, but I woudn't say it bothers me. It is noticeable though.
Bowz
I'd agree that the vibration isn't bothersome to us, but we do notice it; I'm thinking of a multiple unit building, where you have no control over the neighbors schedule....you'd want to make sure the vibrations aren't going to be an issue.
Of course, top loaders vibrate too.
The previous point about dryer ducts is a good one. You want to make sure the dryer ducts are as short and straight as possible, and accessible for cleanout.
Bowz,
We love our front load washer too. I add vinegar to the fabric softner "bin" and that helps with the detergent as well.
Paula
p.s. to original poster and others..... don't most condos have gypcrete between units? Wouldn't that help with the sound? You say it will be on a second floor, so maybe these are 2 level units.
We had Asko front load w/d dryer in our last house... loved it. Clothes last much longer and the cycle times were the same as the typical Maytag top load we have in this house. Water does not fill above the bottom of the door. No leaks. We'll get them again when the current machine fails.
Fishers and Paykel.....thats the new washer I got. Its a top loader.
Just threw out a Fridgidaire front loader after it kept breaking...was only a year and a half old.
The new top loader holds twice the amt of clothes as our front loader using about the same amt of water as the front loaders.the other "great" thing is when it spins the clothes.the clothes come out nearly dry. Truly amazing....and thats less energy the dryer needs to use. They call it an eco brand.
The delivary guys that installed it and took the other one said they know its a fantastic machine because in all the years theyve never removed one but have removed lots of front loaders like mine...
so what ever you do be careful the brand you get......and I researched the Fridgiaire to death....so to speak.
Be well
andy
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life.
—Robert Louis Stevenson
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I bought a house 25 years ago that came with a front loading washer, and never looked back. Would not buy any other kind. It's absolutely incredible that this country has not turned to front loading washers until recently, when they are the most common in Europe.
Example, on numerous occassions we have had guests use our washer and tell them not to add any soap. On some occassions there is so much soap left in there clothes that we have to end the cycle and start over, due to over sudzing.