Hi, I just had a new washing machine installed yesterday. I had one of those Maytag Neptune washers that molded all around the rubber gasket. Yuck! I finally replaced it with an old fashioned top loader. The problem is, it appears the pump is not strong enough to pump the water up to the drain pipe. After the spin cycle I’ve still got 1/2 a washer full of water! Check out the photo … is there any reason under the sun that the copper pipe has to be so long??!!
Thanks.
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Replies
In this part of the world a standpipe needs to be a minimum of 18" with a max of 42 I believe, but we are also not allowed a trap over 18" above floor level. Your trap looks to be at least 40" above the floor. Looks like an attempt at 'making do' which at times will, but should anything ever back up in your main drain things will get pretty stinly pretty fast. Consider a sump with ejector pump and check valve. It will make it work properly and ease and backup worries.
Pete,
Thanks for your post. The standpipe is 24" long (length above the trap). The distance from the floor to the bottom of the trap is 48". Sorry, but I'm not educated in the plumbing department ... could you explain what you mean by a case of "making do" and also "sump with ejector pump and check valve". The washing machine specs say that the top of the stand pipe can be anywhere between 39" and 90" from the floor, so technically, this set-up should work. To get the last load to drain I held the drain hose up as far as I could while it was spinning ... I only tried this because it looked like the drain hose was pinched where it entered the stand pipe. The washer drained, but I'm not sure if it's because I was holding the drain hose higher to eliminate the fold or because the washer was already 1/2 empty. I'd just like to know what I'm dealing with before I call the plumber. I hate being at the mercy of a plumber who may or may not know the best approach to fixing a problem. Thanks again.
My 'making do' coment was about finding yourself in a less than ideal situation and trying to find a way to make things work. In a perfect world your washer tub would be above the trap and you would not have to deal with making the pump push the water up that far.
My mention of a check valve was to solve any problem you would ever have should a stoppage occur in your main drain line. As it looks from the picture should that happen, ( yes a long shot but it does happen) the first over flow point seems to be your basement and if you don't go there often, finding that a back up has happened would only be after it's too late.
A sump and ejector pump would involve someone making a hole in the basement floor approx 2' in dia and 3' deep in installing a 'sump that would catch the waste and via a pump send it into the main drain. the pump discharge line would have a backflow preventer /check vale to prevent any return to the sump thus avoiding and flod/backup.
Just my 2 cents ....
too bad you dont have a floor drain. 2+3=7
My guess is that your hose is pinched at the drainpipe opening. Get a U bent pipe available at all big boxes and hardware stores.The bend of the pipe then hooks into the drainpipe and eliminates the rubber hose getting pinched.
You will need to also get a hoseclamp to secure the hose to the U pipe.
F
There he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.
—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
Thank you to everyone who posted a response. I am so grateful for this message board! Yesterday I did a simple test. I pushed up the drain hose so that the fold in the pipe was eliminated (created a rounded bend over the stand pipe) and taped the hose to the stand pipe. I've run 3 loads and the water drained out every time. The washer actually came with a long plastic drain pipe with a rigid end shaped to hang over the stand pipe, but the guy who delivered and installed the washer said the new drain hose wasn't long enough. I opened the package and in fact, it is long enough, so now I only need replace the hose!
Happy holidays to all!
-- Cynthia
Having also just purchased a new Maytag washer several months ago, I too had some questions about the drain pipe.
Before I contacted a plumber, however, I went back to the store where I purchased it and spoke to their service department - digital pix speak a thousand words in explaining things.
They were able to diagnose the problem from the photos and provide me the parts to make the repair. 30 minutes work at home and everything was solved.
You have a problem, Houston! The pump in the washer is a centrifugal pump. Can only pump water so high - its "Head." Put an infinitely high vertical pipe on the end of the hose, & the height the water rises in it would be the max "Head" your pump has. The water would just stand at that level. I have no idea how much that head is for a washer pump. Also, a centrifugal pump, if you totally stop flow out of it will merrily continue to spin, but nothing happens but a bunch of water in the pump gets agitated. Not like a positive displacement pump, which cannot be run to stall conditions.
Next - whan the pump pushes out all the water it can, in your situation, there will still be a slug of water in the hose reaching from the outlet of the pump to the top of the hump in the hose. Can't get rid of that slug of water because there's no water left for the pump to push it out. Stop the pump & it all drains back into the bottom of the washer tub. That will be a fairly large amount of water.
Add to all this the problems that exist if there is a crimp in the hose that restricts flow to the point that the pump cannot evacuate all the water in the tub in the amount of time it runs. You can have a pretty big residual.
Hope I've given you some issues to consider when you examine the system.
Don
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
BEFORE YOU GET TOO CRAZY about the plumbing make sure that your problem isn't that the spin quit early becuase you had an unbalenced load.
make sure the washer is level, that all feet are firmly planted and put in a light load of shirts and underwear.
been there - done that!
IMO, you answered your own delimma. The level should have no bearing on pumping. If you straightened out the hose by lifting and the level pumped out, you need to reconfigure the drain. The specs you gave said the washer would pump 90", so there should be no "head" problems. They make heavy duty springs to go around the hose to keep them from crimping, Or hard pipe a 90 degree pipe then install your hose at the drain.
Semper Fi
Jar: I am guilty of not reading the entire problem. Didn't see that the pump should be able to lift water 90 inches (More or less). The rest of my comments stand as valid factors bearing on the problem. IF you pump 90 inches straight up, when the pump hits air on its intake, it cavitates & stops pushing water. You now have a 90 inch column of water that will fall back into the machine when the pump stops. Betcha it approximates a gallon or more. That's a gallon of DIRTY water that sits in the bottom of the machine to start the next load.We have a Neptune w/ the standpipe at the top of the machine; that's about a 36 inch column that drains back into the machine when it stops. How much water is that? When you empty the machine of clothes next time, turn the drum by hand & listen to the water slosh in the bottom. Considering the relatively small volume of water a Neptune uses, the residue in a 90 inch pipe would be a significant factor in getting the next batch of clothes sparkling clean. Now, someone will argue that the last water out of a machine is rinse water, and it should be clean. Yep - but what about the dirty water from the last wash cycle? It doesn't all get pumped out, either. After a while, you reach some steady state in cruddy water in the pipe, since you NEVER get the tub completely empty.The only solution to this is to put an anti- back flow valve right at the outlet of the pump. Wonder why they don't? Ever notice that the first thing a dishwasher or a Neptune does is turn on the pump to clear out any excess water in the tub before it starts filling? Anyone wonder why?DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
I'm not sure that I follow all that was in your post, but I just got rid of the Neptune I had. I did not pump all the water out ... I could definitely hear all the water sloshing around if I turned the drum manually after the cycle completed. And yes, the old water from previous loads actually ruined a few loads of white clothes (from dye that had leached out of new colored clothes). And the rubber gasket was virtually covered in mold! I was told by a mechanic that even if I replaced the gasket the mold would return before long. I've been told the new Neptune washers are made with a gasket that is treated to resist mold. My new washing machine is a very standard Whirlpool top loading machine. It looks like all the water is being pumped out now ... I don't believe there is any water in the drain pipe, but I don't know how to be sure that there is no water left somewhere in the machine that I can't see since it's not a front loader. Is there any way to test that?
Thanks again!
Don, I just noticed your tag line, do you laser etch glass?
As you said, you would have to place the back flow device right at the outlet of the pump. The manufacturer probably trying to keep costs down. God forbid they spend another dollar or two. It could be also that it would be one less component to fail or plug in the future. Also the pumps they install may not be able to overcome the water head and the back flow preventer?
Semper Fi
I have a very similar situation. My drain is up in the floor joists. I had to connect two hoses together to do it. I also have a long horizontal run.
My 6 year old machine pumps just fine! My wife reports no water left in the machine!
I went to this set up because the previous owner pumped into the sump and then out. I could not understand pumping it twice. (and I redid the sump to go to daylight instead of septic)
My machines manual says up to 96 inches. If yours says that and won't , I'd go back to the store!
Ward
OK a couple of things
Uniform plumbing code says tail piece above trap shall be a min of 18" & a max of 30"
It also says the trap shall be at least 6" above the floor but not more than 18"
I see by your pic that can not happen cause your waste is going out in the middle of the wall.
Most washers I have seen can usually pump that high ----not with any efficiency, but usually can get it done.
A self contained sump pump would probably be the most reliable fix for the money spent.
& BTW the reason for the long stand pipe is for sudsing so it doesn't come back out of the pipe.
I didn't read all the responses to your question so I may be duplicating what someone else said, but here goes.
We had a similar problem right after I moved into my new house. The drain pipe was too high off the trap and as the washer pumped the water out it caused the waste water to foam excessively, this super sudsy water caused back pressure in the main line to the point of restricting the pumps flow volume. The end result was not all the water would pump out. It took months of head scratching to solve the problem, On the suggestion of a plumber friend I finally tore the drywall out and raised the trap so I had a 20 inch total drop.
By the way we have a Neptune and it works fine once we fixed the height of the drop pipe.
the way the hose is tape into the pipe. dont you need a vent there. 2+3=7
Not sure if someone else suggested this but how about building a platform for the washer/dryer to sit on. Maybe make it out of 2x12s and a sheet of 3/4" plywood - framed like a conventional floor. It could also serve as step to help see into the washer if that were an issue by using a full 4x8 sheet of plywood, and rasising the dryer would make access easier.
Thank you so much for the dimensions on washing machine drain set-ups.I've worked on old houses and I've seen traps lower than what you've described and I've seen set-ups where the drain pipe sat too low and if I remember correctly the washing machine would try to fill up and somehow the water would drain right out of the machine since the drain pipe wasn't high enough and needed to be slightly above the final water level in the tub when it filled up.During the past week I looked at a vacant house that had a sewer smell in the laundry room. I got under the house in the crawl space and saw that there was no trap for the washing machine drain. Instead of having a trap someone had installed a car radiator hose with hose clamps.Thank you again for the dimensions.++++++++++++++++
-Do the thing you fear and the death of fear is certain-
First thing to do is test the washer with the discharge at a "normal" height: get several buckets and have them at about at the height of the washer. See if the washer discharges fully.
If so, you've got a "problem" (think positive --- you've got an opportunity to get creative <G>) 'cause your septic line discharges through the basment side wall (Private septic system?) and you're dstandpipe can't get much shorter than what you have.
But maybe you've got a defective washer
One other possibility: some of the newer washers discharge at > 17 gal per minute, which is pretty much the most a 2"stand pipe can take.
Did you seal the washer discharge (and is that other the DW drain?) into the top of the standpipe?
If so, it might be that the washer isn't fully discharging because of the standpipe flow rate. Guessing, here.
Assuming the washer dischargers properly in "test mode" into the buckets, the fixes include: different washer with a stronger pump, or a utility sink with an inexpensive sump pump with enough head to do the job.
Yes, it's private septic. The other hose is from the water treatment system which flushes once every 5 days at 2AM, when I would not be running the washing machine. Actually, I don't think there is anything wrong with the washing machine. Since I taped up the hose (temporary solution) it appears to be draining properly. Thanks again to all who have posted.
i never could understand why clothes washers always seemed to be hooked up in such a haphazard manner, ie hosebib connectors to a rubber hose and that mickey mouse drain usually hung over the side of the laundry tub or stuck into a standpipe next to it
dishwashers, which use much less water, are designed and installed in a much better manner
last time i bought a washer a couple of years ago, i replaced the cheapo rubber hoses with those stainless braided hoses, installed 1/2 inch ball valves and fastened the drain hose to a standpipe with trap and a dishwasher type hose adaptor
the standpipe ties into the laundry tub drain below the trap and extends up to the rim of the tub
i've had my share of washing machine disasters over the years and this helps me sleep at night
Hi there, if you do a search on Maytag Neptune lawsuit. Many people had similar problems with there top of line Maytag washer.
Bruce
Washing machine, pumps, septic system and lint questionOur washing machine in the basement discharges to a laundry tub. From there a centifugal pump pumps the water up to the main house discharge pipe about 7 ft off the floor. We are on a septic system. When we bought the house 11 years ago the previous owner warned us that we had to filter the discharged wash water or the lint would clog the impellor of the pump. So we have always strained the washing machine discharge water through an old sock or nylon as it empties into the laundry tub - to be repumped to the septic system.In the past 11 years we must have filtered out 3 cubic feet plus of lint. Lint that would have gone into the septic system except for the filter. I have got to think that with much of the lint being synthetic fibres, that much lint could not be good for a tile field.We are now moving our laundry up to the main floor of the house. I am thinking that we should keep a filter in line to keet the lint out of the septic system. Any thoughts?
An ex-boat builder treading water!Edited 12/20/2005 12:26 pm ET by BowBear
Edited 12/20/2005 12:27 pm ET by BowBear
I think that kind of stuff is suposed to be held in the septic tank and should never reach the field. This is one reason why a spetic tank needs to be pumped periodically - probably every 3 to 7 years depending on the number of residents, etc.
Pumped if you are a paper HOG! 35 years and still going strong.