Nothing bothers me more than to do something that’s not needed. Recently, I was putting hurricane clips on trusses for the first time in my career. Here in Michigan, hurricanes are…well…non-existant. In fact, we’ve got at least 10 million homes that have never lost a roof except when a tornado hits it and then the whole thing explodes while the house next door loses only a shingle. I worked on houses that were hit by tornados and that statement isn’t an eggageration.
I think Simpson musta lobbied to get our Michigan state code amended to requre metal ties. I see them as useless, dangerous, costly and quite frankly just another few bucks out of the carpenters pocket because I don’t remember any builder tossing in a few bucks to compensate us for our extra work.
Anyone else tired of useless codes?
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information…don’t listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Replies
Anyone else tired of useless codes?"
Blue,
Yeah me. but here in the state next door we call 'um tornado clips. IMO they are better than nothing, but I would like to see something more substantial than what code calls for, not eliminate them altogether. Not unheard of out here to have 100 plus MPH downdrafts coming out of T-storms.
WSJ
Ever see any houses with the trusses ripped off becaue of those 100 mile an hour downdrafts?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
Once the roof goes, the rest of the house follows pretty quickly.
WSJ
How many houses do you know of that have disappeared? I know of two...they were both in the direct path of a huge tornado that hit in the late 70's in Bloomfield Hills. We were in there the next day doing roof temps. This was a huge tornado and a few houses lost their roofs. One house stripped the top plate with the trusses. the simpson ties we use don't attach to the studs so I suppose the trusses will now take two plates instead of just the one when it launches itself.
I see the entire idea as idiocy. They are attempting to fix something that isn't an issue. Simpson is pulling the strings...the pencil necks are choking and making themselves important....and it comes out of the pockets of the last guy in the food chain...the carpenter in overalls.
I should remind you guys that we have 5 million houses built here in Michigan on basements without sill plates or sill anchors....another Simpson dominated product...
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
Since when did Simpson have a monopoly on roof fastening systems? Lots of ways to satisfy code. They are just one way. There are better (superior but more costly???) ways. but for the most part, code doesn't require one to go that far.
WSJ
How many houses do you know of that have disappeared? I know of two..."
Blue,
Not to beat a dead horse, but.....
Back in the 80's, (I think it was '85) I had the privilege of driving down Dune Road in West Hampton LI NY 2 days after Gloria past though.
Amazing how many houses on the bay side had there walls severely damaged by the roofs from the houses on the ocean side blowing off and striking them.
Something to think about.............Of course, that doesn't happen in MI. LOL
WSJ
Workshopjon...I think its perfectly rational and sensible to use clips on ocean properties and high wind areas. I think its totally rational to build differently in different seismic zones. That makes sense, saves dollars and most importantly saves lives.
The cost in Michigan to install hurricane clips will surely exceed the dollars that they save. The injuries in Michigan will surely exceed the injuries that are caused by roofs blowing off...in Michigan.
Ying and yang...
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Simpson doesn't have a monopoly...but thats the only type of metal fasteners that I'm seeing.
The point isn't about simpson...although as I think about it...I'm noticing a pattern. The point is that sometimes the "fix" wastes more money than it saves. Many of the "fixes" are dubious.
Anchoring the sill plates is dubious. We used to cut nail them down. Now they have to be strapped or bolted. Okay...the tornado hits the house...and all that left is the sill plate with ten toenails sticking out...because there's no adequate fastening of the rim joist to the sill.
Pointless.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
blue .. will you stop with the rants already ?
your new code is the IRC , right ?
the IRC requires building for wind uplift..
obviously the state of Michigan has a design wind load for your area..
the stupid little inconvenient hurricane clips that you are "forced " to put on are required by the engineering calculations for that wind design load..
get over it...
our wind desing load is 110 MPH.. and 6 miles south of us it's 120 mph..
try building to those specs
what do you want to do .. go back to one toe thru the truss heel ?
don't be sillyMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
No Mike...our new codes aren't Irc.
And can you please explain to me why both you and 4lorn are so upset because I wan't to discuss something? What could possibly be wrong with me pointing out the idiocy of fastening a truss tighter to the plates...than the plates are to the studs? I'm simply pointing out that the powers that be are stupidly creating a superstrong link, right next to the weakest link.
Of course..all you Dems love rules and regulations....you don't think people like me should be able to think...and god forbid...actually talk about the idiocy imposed upon us by ..probably other democrats trying to save us from ourselves!
And since you and the other DEms know so much...why do we need clips on trusses...but don't need them on conventional?
This is just plain stupidity....and you endorse it and think it's better. "If it says Simpson...it must be better"......NOT!
I won't tell you what that makes you...
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I forgot to ask you Mike...
Do you have any thing that you do that you know that is stupid? Or...is your code perfect?
Remember...now...were not changing policies here...were just discussing it. It's okay..you can admit that your government isn't perfect...it won't hurt and they won't hunt you down and take your license!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
yes.. the energy code has been amended to allow foam on the outside of our foundations .. it also allows them to cut the foam OFF at the finish grade..
so the coldest part of the foundation is the only part allowed not to be insulated..
now.... that's dumb...
but other than that.. why don't you drive around someo f the hurricane areas or read some of the engineering reports on the houses that failed
also you could clarify your position.. i'll even give you some wiggle room..
do you want to amend your code to require the clips on conventional rafters?
heh, heh, hehMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
You are missing the point. The codes are full of things which make no sense either structurally or otherwise. Blue has brought up some legitimate issues as to the need for hurricane clips ( truss ties) and the fact that a " chain is only as strong as it's weakest link". The parallel in this case being allowing a connection of the plate to the studs with two spikes nailed into endgrain and foam sheeting which will not provide any structural connection between the plate and studs. Osb yes but not foam.
I brought up the issue of anchor straps and/or bolts to tie the sill plate to the foundation wall. This is another case of the weak link because the joists and box sill are still only secured to the plate with toenails ....... so what happens if the house gets blown away???
The plate stays attached and everything else goes.
Mike you and others live in coastal areas subject to hurricane force winds and in those cases homes need to be built differently ( and are)
Blue is pointing out the inconsistencies in the code ( and rightly so). There are some really stupid things in it in several areas not just framing.
As to the two issues mentioned here I have personal experience on a wide scale with them. In 1985 we had a major tornado go thru the area . It was on the ground for almost a hundred miles and did tremendous damage. One particular locality had required anchor bolts for years while others didn't.
there was no difference in the types of damage involved. Most houses that got hit were leveled some with nothing left above ground (including block) while others retained their subfloors and nothing else. Some lost everything but the mudsill. The point is that none of the connectors saved any of them.
Most of the country is not in siesmic areas or hurricane prone areas and does not need to adhere to the type of codes needed in those areas. And even if we did need to build to those standards .... they are not being used in the codes prevalent here.
I am in NE Ohio , Blue is in MI Similar to most of the Midwest.
Just because something is in the code does not mean it makes sense or needs to be.
As builders we live with a lot of things that make no sense and it is certainly not wrong to want to change them.
So come down off your high horse.
Thank you professor...you stated my position most eloquently.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
mark... YOU're missing the point..
anyone who builds in a wind-zone knows exactly what you're talking about..
our structures now have to be tied from the foundation to the the ridge..
my contention is that blue is leaving out some info.. i bet his code already specs a lot of this .. he just hasn't been called out on it yet..
he's bitching about hurricane ties..
i bet the language in his code requires all of the structure be tied..
all of this has been slowly incorprated into the codes since Hurrican Andrew..
and it does save structures..
Blue stated over and over again that he's been doing this for 30 years and GRAVITY and toe nails are sufficient to hold his houses on their foundations...
HE SAYS the hurricane clips are silly..
<<<Recently, I was putting hurricane clips on trusses for the first time in my career. Here in Michigan, hurricanes are...well...non-existant. In fact, we've got at least 10 million homes that have never lost a roof except when a tornado hits it and then the whole thing explodes while the house next door loses only a shingle. I worked on houses that were hit by tornados and that statement isn't an eggageration.
I think Simpson musta lobbied to get our Michigan state code amended to requre metal ties. I see them as useless, dangerous, costly and quite frankly just another few bucks out of the carpenters pocket because I don't remember any builder tossing in a few bucks to compensate us for our extra work.>>>>>>>
then , to justify his position , he goes on to say he wouldn't mind so much , but they don't require it for regular rafters.. just trusses..
hah, hah, hah... BS is still BS
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/17/2004 7:28 am ET by Mike Smith
Mike.
I will respond later when I have the time to write but I will say this for now...... IT AIN'T IN THE CODE!!! And for you to assume that it is...... is just plain wrong.
We are not in a hurricane area...... you are. There is a difference. YOu very seldom get hit with tornadoes.... we do...... and there is nothing short of reinforced concrete walls that will stop a direct hit by one.
Califonia has to build to siesmic codes..... does that mean we should make the rest of the country build to their codes as well.
Where does it stop??
AS I said you are missing the point and you don't get it.
I have no objection to having things in the codes provided they actually make the house better and are actually needed for the area they are being built in.
Mike do you even realize the history of requiring anchor straps on a foundation??
They were used before the days when solid "top" block were available and were the only viable way of anchoring the mudsill down to the hollow block. You obviously can't reliably cut nail a plate into just the webs of hollow block hence the bolts or straps.
Somewhere along the way some code writer got the idea that they kept the house from blowing away and ....... viola.... they are still required as of about the last fifteen years (here anyway) but it doesnt make the house any better and most reputable framers still cutnail their plates rather than rely of the bolts.
Same thing is true with the hurricane clips.
And a lot of other code issues.
And there are a lot of things that reputable builders do that are not in the codes but are necessary if you don't want callbacks.
Just because an item made it into the code doesn't make it necessary and just because it isn't there doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.
There ought to be a good reason for doing it and in the case of these two items ..... there is none .
I work in four counties and the codes on these particular items are all enforced exactly as Blue stated.
gee mark.... what IS the design wind load for your area ?
it is in the code... even in your code
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"YOu very seldom get hit with tornadoes.... we do...... and there is nothing short of reinforced concrete walls that will stop a direct hit by one."SO YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT YOU CAN NOT BUILD A HOUSE THAT CAN WITHSTAND A DIRECT HIT OF 40 MILES AN HOUR!!IS THAT WHAT YOU ARE TELLING me!!!!!!!!!!!Yes and F0 tornado starts at 40 mph and goes to 72 mph.And F0 & F1 (73-122 mph) tornado's are 74% of all tornado's.http://www.tornadoproject.com/fscale/fscale.htm"The Fujita Scale is very subjective, and varies according to how experienced the surveyor is. We have many readers who have tried to do their own "surveys" of tornado damage when storms have occurred in their area. However, the less experienced the surveyor is, the more likely he/she is to be awed by the damage, and the more likely they are to give it a high rating. Brian Smith of the Omaha, Nebraska area NWS office, a former student of Dr. Fujita and an expert frequently brought in to do site surveys, tells of hearing about a tee-shirt with the words "F-3 My Foot" printed on it.Media hype and inexperience with tornado damage also plays a big part in exaggerated F-Scale claims seen on television or in the paper. A reporter may see a collapsed concrete block home and be very impressed, never noticing that there was no mortar between the blocks. They may be aghast to see a park whose trees have been leveled, but not know that the species had very shallow roots, planted in soil that was soft and soggy from torrential rains, and thus easily toppled. They may see a roof that had been blown a quarter of a mile from its house, and not know that the roof was attached to the house with only a few nails, and when lofted into the air, acted as a "sail." They may see a light post that is bent at a 30 degree angle and think that it must have taken a 600 mph wind to do that, not knowing that a van had been blown into the pole, bending it, then been towed off to help clear the streets. For some of the media, the exaggerations make for a better story than the actual facts. Fortunately, they often make up for this by printing helpful stories about aid available and inspirational human interest stories.As if doing a site survey of a track is not difficult enough, tornadic storms may also be accompanied by complex combinations of strong downbursts and other straight line winds. Separating tornado damage from other wind damage makes for a daunting, difficult task for even the most experienced surveyor. "One of the problems is that new stores often make it sound like the whole are got hit by an F4 when maybe on a little bit, if any did, and most of it was much smaller storms. Storms that should not have destroyed homes."The Seymour, Texas, tornado of April 10, 1979 is a prime example of a tornado that is destined to be misjudged on the Fujita Scale. This spectacular funnel was probably capable of F4 damage, had it passed through a town. It produced only telephone pole and tree damage, and thus could be rated no higher than F2 damage. The Seymour tornado was in the same family as the devastating Wichita Falls, Texas tornado, which remains as of this writing, the most damaging in US history. Video of this tornado is used in the Fujita Scale segment of Tornado Video Classics II
"And look at this.OH and MI get an avearage of 1-5 tornados per 1000 sq miles.But OH and the very southner tip of MI can expect peak winds of 250 MPH.
Bill
Good link there you posted. We've experienced what would be F2 type damage here (in my neighborhood) from nothing more that downdrafts. I've had an anemometer above the peak of my roof for seven years now, and have recorded peak wind speeds of over 70mph. Due to how it samples, it always reads less than actual. About eight years ago, a local Milwaukee news station (FOX 6) recorded a gust of at least 100 (the limit of their instruments) NOT associated with a tornado.
I'm sure MI sees the same weather as WI.
Jon
About 6 yrs ago, Mackinac Island was hit with 95 mph gusts.
http://www.pub.umich.edu/daily/1998/nov/11-12-98/news/news12.html
MI,
Pleeeeeze, That article , [cut and paste] " On Mackinac Island, a wind gust of 95 mph was reported Tuesday. Sustained winds on the island were 82 mph, said National Weather Service "
Can't be, at least according to Blue........MI just doesn't get that kind of weather.
WSJ
Thanks for proving my point WorkshopJon.
I've built a structure on Mackinaw Island with some very large trusses. I know for a fact that the trusses did not have any hurricane clips and I also know that that building did not ever lose it's roof!
I rest my case.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Mike, its not like you to make a false assumption, be corrected, then resume with the same false assumption...and then toss a coupla personal insults (you probably shouldn't be accusing anyone of bsing without some sort of proof) for good measure.
Mike...trust this explanation: if the code called for more than just hurricane clips, the inspectors would be drooling and relishing their new found power as the wrote red tag after red tag.
I want you to explain to me how the ENTIRE STATE IS MISSING THE NEW CODE EXPLANATION! Do you really think that EVERY CODE AUTHORITY, INCLUDING THE BUILDERS ASSOCIATION would miss something so major as "tieing the entire structure"?!!!
If I go back into my deleted Builders Association memos, I'd probably be able to find the email alerting us to the new code change. Would that be helpful for you to understand this conversation?
Let's try this...lets pretend that I'm correct...and only the trusses need to be tied to the plates.....and the plates only need to be tied to the studs with two 3" clipped head .131 nails. Just for fun...tell me...do you thing that that makes any sense...financially, for safety, or for any reason?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Hi Blue,
First, Simpson wasn't responsible for the change ... and I'm not saying how I know :)
I think if you take a look at page 2 of the August 2004 Bulletin it may help clear up the reasoning for this change.
http://www.michigan.gov/cis/0,1607,7-154-10575_17573-46130--,00.html
Thank you MICrazy!
I hope Mike reads this....maybe he'll get off his "Blue is leaving something out-he probably hasn't been caught yet" kick....no doubt 4lorn will jump on that bandwagon and accept it like fact simply because Mike says it...so it must be true!
So.....the first reason is that some trusses are splitting when nailed. Their solution...require these clips on every truss. My solution: when a truss is split, add a clip.
They want to make it easy for the inspector to see the clips...at the expense of the carpenters. Go figure...
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Re: "my contention is that blue is leaving out some info.. i bet his code already specs a lot of this .. he just hasn't been called out on it yet.."I think your on to something there. BED is on an anti-government jag. To support this argument he presents the various building codes as a case of the 'evil them' lording authority over the 'good-ol-boy', 'underdog', us. I previously pointed out that the national code formulating and modifying bodies are open to input to any who care to educate themselves and get involved. Further the local authorities who adopt the coded, from the elected heads down to the individual inspectors, are open to input. This is not a case of an ivory tower group on high handing down arbitrary decisions and edicts on the hard pressed masses. If 'Professor and BED' feel it is it is because they have failed to become educated as to what the code is and does and how it is created, modified and adopted.Further neither actually points to anything within any codes. BED says he is required to install hurricane clips but he can't seem to name the code being referenced by the AHJ. Is this the UBC the IBC or the code defined by 'the Department of Soul Rot and Satanic Dark Secrets'? I don't know. Seems neither BED or 'professor' know either.There also seems to be some confusion over the difference between what the code says and how it is enforced.Along these lines there are IMO two main points: First is that codes are a package. There are conceptual outgrowth of a design philosophy. While local code authorities are free to adopt a buffet view of the code it has to be done with great care. Leaving out sections without replacing them with a functional equivalent can undermine the dependant structures and cripple the functional utility of the entire code. Most local authorities understand this, mostly because they take the time to educate themselves, and tend to adopt any code as a piece and make changes only on the edges as local conditions require.The second concern is how a code is implemented in an area and population previously unused to following modern, engineered and coherent, codes. I have seen this in electrical contracting in counties that were previously without inspections or with very lax enforcement.On the practical side the AHJ wisely doesn't try to enforce every detail to the very limit at first. They start with the broad strokes. The most glaring deficiencies. Those changes that will save the most lives and the greatest amount of property. As one inspector put it: "we try to bring the contractors along slowly. Through education and gentle pressure'.Given BED's case expect the AHJ to enforce the hurricane clips first, even when they are unsupported by the structure and of limited utility. A minor benefit but mostly to get the contractors up to speed and more comfortable with the idea of following a structured and coherent code. Later they will push the code on the top plate to stud connections. Still later it will be stud to bottom plates and bottom plate to foundation connections. A step at a time. Every step of the way you get a stronger house and eventually, when the entire system is in place, a much stronger structure.In some sections of my area it took five to ten years for the bulk of the National Electrical Code, NEC, to be enforced and the vast majority of contractors up to speed and used to using and complying to the NEC. In all its intricacies. Everything I have learned talking to inspectors supports this general view as to the likely path that will be taken.Of course I'm in Florida and BED is a snow bunny. Not that I think this changes much. Code officials, from inspectors to knowledgeable contractors to design engineers polishing concepts to improve the codes, are an adaptable and communicative group. They share information and strategies. What has worked down here, for the most part, will likely be the strategy used in BED's backwater.
Mike to take it a little further,
In a hurricane area I believe that some form of continuous tie is required from the foundation to the roof ( such as metal strapping or long bolts ) . Someone who builds in those areas can jump in and provide the details.
In the areas in which Blue is talking about there are no such requirements so there is no continuous structural integrity built into our codes. Which brings us back to the chain is as strong as it's weakest link argument detailed in my previous post.
Another thing is that there is a difference in what a lot of inspectors look for and enforce which could be the topic of a whole new thread. There are things that good builders do which are not required by code but that need to be done anyway. Conversely there are a lot of things we do that mean absolutely nothing but code requires them.
Just because it is in the code doesn't mean it makes sense.
and for the record I am not against having building codes. There are actually some things I would like to see in the code that aren't there. I just want them to make sense economically and have a demonstrable value to them. Not just put there because they sound good on the surface.
There ya go Mike...jumping in and getting on with the spirit of the thread perfectly!
So they allow anything exposed above the grade to be uninsulated...well, that's a start.
I'd like to discuss hurricane efforts but we don't have hurricanes and therefore don't need to implement those efforts. Aside from the rare tornado that explodes an entire house, wind uplift just isn't a problem here in Michigan. Overzealous codifiers think it is.....they have to be important you know....
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I realize that at this where I am jumping in again, this thread is only half gone, but here is what I am seeing in this to compare Mikes and Your comments.You see that the weak link in your code is that the clips only do so much, and that to be effective, more ties need to be added to foundation so your solution is to do away with the one improvement they have made so far. Mike sees that his code allows a weak link in the foundation insulation. But he does not suggest doing away with all the foundation insulation just because one part is weak. Instead, he goes one step beyond the minuimal requirement and provides value to his cuistomer, finding a way to insulate the way thing. His approach raises the standards, while yours defends the lower standard.I don't see this at all as a rep/dem issue or a conserv/lib uissue. It is a simple quality issue. I am not bound by any enfiorced codes, but I look to them to learn the minimum standard, and then find a way to improve on them.Come to think of it - maybe that's a libertarian viewpoint. You know, provide great value and let t6he marketplace decide...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, your mischaracterizing my complaint. My complaint is centered on the fact that a fix was made to our code, where no problem existed.
We don't have wind problems like coastal regions, yet the codemasters have created a half assed "fix", that wouldn't fix anything, for a fix that isn't needed.
You want to jump in and question the quality, instead of questioning the need.
If you bothered to read ( I don't blame you for not reading) the explanation given by the Michigan code writers, you'd have read that the reason for the change was "because some carpenters are splitting the truss with toenails". That should be your first clue that the fix is not needed....here's why: if there really was some incidences of truss connection failure, they would have cited that, instead of the lame splitting excuse. Its obvious that the relatively minor incidence of split truss has not caused any measurable roof failure claims or the numbers would have been cited.
I see this as just another intrusion into our lives by do gooder governmental bureaucrats interested in maintaining job security...and I see substantially more of the same on the horizon....especially if experienced, knowledgeable tradesmen like myself keep quiet and just accept what ever they tell us.
Luckily, I'm on the twilight years of my trade/craft and I don't forsee me being involved in any way in the building industry...at least not in the wholesale aspect of it. All I see is poverty ahead for skilled rough framers while the guys selling retail (the builders) squeeze more and more and pay less and less.
Mike is REQUIRED to build the way he does. His houses will blow away if he doesn't. We already have a very substantial track record here in Michigan which PROVES that the changes aren't needed.
As we all know though, common sense doesn't prevail at the governmental level.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I did indeed read all this blue eyes, you devil.But i don't for one minute believe that is the only reason for bringing this requirement into the code. it is just one stated reason from one person.And i am not mischarachterizing. I am reacting to what you have said. The confusion is all yours. You started out complaining, then shifted to saying you aren't complaining but want a discussion instead, then when i enter trying to discuss, you shift back to saying that I mischaracterize your complaint. That gets hard to follow since a few posts back you claimned to have no complaint.I'll accept that you have a strong OPINION that your state needs no clips because in your BELIEF no roofs get blown off, but that does not make it a fact.I like you and your entertaining style, but I hae always had a problem with anyone trying to justify taking the least best way of doing something. that is what you seem to be continually doing...Look at it a different way. Are you going to tell me that there are NO builders there who would not pay an extra couple bucks for a superior product? or like this, If a builder is going to recommend one of his framing subs to his mother or his brother, or the governor, for their own custom house, would he be more likely to recomend blue because"he is the fasterest framer in town" or because, " He really puts together the best stick frame i have ever seen"The reason I ask is because you arecomplaining that competition is driving framers into the poorhouse. But there is another kind of competition than pricing competition tjhat will last longer and stand out brighter, and that is quality.It's too bad they don't grade the lots there to keep water from puddling aganst the foundations. We get a house up out of the water here.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I did indeed read all this blue eyes, you devil.
Did you read the link which was the "official" explanation by the State of Michigan? Thats what I was talking about. Someone posted it...thats when I learned the "why" of the change.
But i don't for one minute believe that is the only reason for bringing this requirement into the code. it is just one stated reason from one person.
It is the official stated reason....I believe it because if a house ever loses anything during the two windstorms per year that we get...every television crew shows up with tall trucks and lots of reporters. A tornado went right over our sub and landed in the next sub. The roofs were not torn off...and they don't have clips....but the attached garages were blown away completely....they even lost their straps, which were properly nailed to the bottom plates!
And i am not mischarachterizing. I am reacting to what you have said. The confusion is all yours. You started out complaining, then shifted to saying you aren't complaining but want a discussion instead, then when i enter trying to discuss, you shift back to saying that I mischaracterize your complaint. That gets hard to follow since a few posts back you claimned to have no complaint.
I'm a confusing guy. I just wanted to start a thread to find out how many other tradesmen were being forced to do stupid things.
I'll accept that you have a strong OPINION that your state needs no clips because in your BELIEF no roofs get blown off, but that does not make it a fact.
Its a fact. Sometimes you just have to take the man for his word...and then comment on it based on the word. If you want to debate my truthfulness, then so be it. The facts are that if roofs were blowing off anywhere....the word would get around...the news would show it...the builders association would report it on the weekly emails that I receive. Just face it....wind is not a factor in Michigan.
I like you and your entertaining style, but I hae always had a problem with anyone trying to justify taking the least best way of doing something. that is what you seem to be continually doing...
I ALWAYS take the least way of doing something...as long as I get the same satisfactory results. I don't mind the competition doing things more slowly and adding parts that aren't necessary...it helps my bottom line. In fact, one of the reasons that I was able to operate so profitably during the last decade was because the oldtimers refused to use guns...and therefore all the hours were substantially higher than ours. Now...the guns salesguys have put everyone in guns and our margins have disappeared.
Look at it a different way. Are you going to tell me that there are NO builders there who would not pay an extra couple bucks for a superior product?
I'll put it this way....if I told the builder that I wanted him to order me the extra osb to put over the rim joist, he probably wouldn't hire me. They don't want us to waste their materials and this would be viewed as a waste. Additionally, the extra time to do things like that wouldn't be well received. They won't hire crews that take extra time to do extra work. Time is money and crews that can't get the job done in the alloted times are sent packing. Big customs are no exception, but its a little harder to pinpoint a framing schedule. Semi custom homes are usually homes that have been built and they therefore have a known framing schedule. If you take 3.5 weeks to frame a 3 week house, you probably won't get a second house.
or like this, If a builder is going to recommend one of his framing subs to his mother or his brother, or the governor, for their own custom house, would he be more likely to recomend blue because"he is the fasterest framer in town" or because, " He really puts together the best stick frame i have ever seen"
I jsut finished the builders personal house. He hires us because were competent and timely. Take away one of the equations...and I don't get another house. Slow framers are relegated to the worst builders...the ones that don't pay well and rarely pay all. From slow they go to "out of business". From there, they come to me looking for work. I'm not hiring...I'm downsizing.
The reason I ask is because you arecomplaining that competition is driving framers into the poorhouse. But there is another kind of competition than pricing competition tjhat will last longer and stand out brighter, and that is quality.
Hahahahahahahahaha All the houses that get framed in Michigan pass inspection. IF they don't, the framer doesn't get paid. I've finished one house that the framer walked off....the first floor deck and all walls were done and he knew it would be better to walk off without nothing than to continue and receive the 20k. I got the 20k to finish it...and I just barely made it. Quality is subjective...it doesn't mean putting more stuff in that isn't needed.
It's too bad they don't grade the lots there to keep water from puddling aganst the foundations. We get a house up out of the water here.
All grades are set to a civil engineers drawings. The brick ledges must be within .2 of a foot to pass. The finish grades must also meet that standard. The grade must be 8" minimum below framing members. If you run the osb down to the mudsill, the damp concrete will cause the osb to absorb water and deteriorate. Sorry we don't live in a desert.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Here is somethi8ng for your education, blue.You have based your argument on your assumption that there is no need for designing or building to handle high winds because you assert that theer has never been structural roof damage due to high winds in you state. So I tickled my Google and low and behold, ther ar a multitude of events which have escaped your notice out there. Start with this one.
http://www.wlns.com/Global/story.asp?S=525672
notice the parts about roofs being torn off, walls knocked down, and trees knocked over and uprooted in a storm with winds up to 110MPH. I can't recall wind here over 90 MPH, so should I use this as an argument that I should build to lower standards than you?Here's another one where the winds were running 85 to 103 MOPH and a couple hundred homes were destroyed
http://www.spc.noaa.gov/misc/AbtDerechos/casepages/jul7-81991page.htmso it seems reasonable to design for hundred mile an hour wind loads on your buildings since they do happen within the state on a regular basis.
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Those articles pretty well substantiates everything I'm saying Piffin. You had to go back quite a few years to find any wind damage and nothing in there tells me that the connections are failing on trusses.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Go back a few years? I didn't look at dates, just grabbed off the top page of the Google results. There were ten or twelve pages.And doesn't it stand to reason that older house - being built without clips and codes - would be more likely to fail, proviong you wrong?Several accoujnts of roofs blowing off houses does nothing to convince you that that connection failed? Sounds like I could show you piss and you'd call it water.Fact is that you claimed no roofs get blown off in your state. I had no trouble at all finding out that it happens regularly. The thing about roofs coming off more often on garages - They are learning that garage doors are too weak and they are first to fail. That lets the wind in under the roof and lifts it up. So they are starting to require better garage doors and ties to foundation in garages.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Go back a few years? I didn't look at dates, just grabbed off the top page of the Google results. There were ten or twelve pages.
Well, I looked at the dates and you were already back a few years. Tornadoes come through every season and cause damage. I've already established that. Most...a huge majority of the damage is to mobile homes...yet no ones talking about eliminating them.
And doesn't it stand to reason that older house - being built without clips and codes - would be more likely to fail, proviong you wrong?
It would stand to reason that if roof systems were flying off walls, it would make sense to tie the roof system to the studs and the studs to the foundation.
Several accoujnts of roofs blowing off houses does nothing to convince you that that connection failed? Sounds like I could show you piss and you'd call it water.
I stated early on in the thread that I know for a fact that when tornados land in the neighborhood, direct hits result in missing houses.
Fact is that you claimed no roofs get blown off in your state. I had no trouble at all finding out that it happens regularly.
I stated that no injuries/deaths have occurred by trussed roof systems detaching from houses, and I believe that there will be serious injuries and deaths related to installing more hardware that is being put on for show. The hardware is ridiculously over engineered compared to the next immediate connection which is two spikes in withdrawl on the end grain of a stud. I can tap those off with my finish hammer. Furthermore, I worked on a house that was missing the trusses and the entire top plate!
The thing about roofs coming off more often on garages - They are learning that garage doors are too weak and they are first to fail. That lets the wind in under the roof and lifts it up. So they are starting to require better garage doors and ties to foundation in garages.
They aren't requiring better garage doors and the ties to the foundation haven't changed. They still bury simpson straps in mortar and 4" hollow core blocks. The trusses are now tied and are by far the most significantly engineered connection...far exceeding any of the other possible failing points.
I'll say it again. If they want to make a comprehensive overhaul of the entire process and create equally strong connections from the foundation to the roof, like Mike is doing, then I'l agree that the current hurricane ties makes sense. That obviously isn't going to happen given the current rate of economic loss due to winds in Michigan. Our wind loss is a tiny blip on the scale and the cost of doing all the extra wind protection stuff would far, far outweigh the cost benefits. The only other possible reason that it should be considered is because of health and safety issues and no one has shown me even one incident of severe injury or death from truss/plate toenail connections!
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
;)'It would stand to reason that if roof systems were flying off walls, it would make sense to tie the roof system to the studs and the studs to the foundation."Finally, we agree.BTW, the links I showed youwer for windstorms, not tornadoes. You guys lose roofs from other kinds of wind than from tornadoes too.
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I stopped following this thread a while back.
It has occurred to me recently though that the title, Wasting Time and Resources is an apt title for all of the energy that goes into the Tavern.
Mine included.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Wasting Time and Resources is an apt title for all of the energy that goes into the Tavern."
Touche'
Jon
I can't imagine building without nailing off the sheathing at the sill. The list of shortcuts you take is getting unbelieveable, Blue!
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That brings up another consideration. If you are going to nail into the new treated lumber, you need to use HDG or SS or within a few years your connection may be corroded away.Les Barrett Quality Construction
There was an article in I think, JLC dealing with this and the fact that framing crews were starting to add extra charges to cover the necessary cost to do it this way - then there were the crews blindly ignoring the paperwork and continuing to nail things off with the old nails.
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Les, it's okay if the nails corrode away here in Michigan because the 5 million homes that never had mudsills are still standing perfectly in the same spot they were built in.
I don't remember putting a mudsill down in the first five or six years of my career. They didn't start using them till the early eighties.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
You do have a good point that should temper all of our thinking.Les Barrett Quality Construction
Sorry that your so shocked Piffin. It's not a shortcut...it's how we do things in Michigan. We have 10 million houses or more standing quite sturdily and I've never, ever, ever, seen one that had the osb or plywood, or foam run all the way down to the mudsill.
I wouldn't want that on my house....the osb would absorb moisture from the foundation and cause mold.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
discuss... no.. you want to dis something
i bet if i checked.. that your code does require tieing from the sill to the rafter.. you've just been caught on the obvious thing.. hurricane clips
and , yes , they do save homes.. and yes the code does improve the minimum standards we build to..
there are several ways of tieing fromt he sill to the rafter..
ours have to be tied from the fondation to the ridge..
until the latest code i could achieve most of that by making sure my plywood tied everything from the foundation to the double plate.. and the hurrican ties extended that to the rafters or the trusses..
ever look at how they build them in Australia ?
or California ?
why should Michigan be imune from the same forces of wind uplift as it's neighboring states..
WHAT IS your design wind load ?
do you know ?
it's printed in your code book..
take that design wind uplift to a PE and ask him to spec the tie downs... bet he exceeds your code
and don't come back and tell me he/she doesn't know what they're talking about Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike...I haven't been "caught" at anything. It's just a simple code change that recently happened. Before, we didn't need hurricane clips. Now, we do. Got it? Last year...no clips...this year..clips!
I finally actually nailed some on my self personally, and while I was doing it, I was thinking..."hmmmm, I wonder why its so important now, especially since we already have 10 million or more homes in the metro detroit area and no roofs are blowing off?!"
Then, because theres so many osb, or ply threads, I thought I'd toss out this question to see if others around the country have to do useless things too? It's not really a big deal...I don't mind our goventment imposing useless criteria on us, even though it puts our guys a little further away from getting a raise. It adds four hours to our jobs, which just comes out of our bottom line once again.
No big deal...but it is not needed as evidenced by the existing house stock.
And no, I don't care to build like the Aussies. Were doing fine right here in Michigan.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Uh, Mike - six miles south of you - wouldn't that be right out in the bay?Ooops - just REAL close to it, right?Even protected little valleys inland can get some strange winds on occasion. I remember roofing a chalet style in a small secluded valley in CO one winter. Started out as a nice day but they had forcast a cold front coming in with a wind shift.I was shibgling along about lunch time when I suddenly heard this wind come down off the west slope and when it slammed into the house, it actually LIFTED my 2x10 roof plank, with me and half a bundle or so of shingles up three or four inches off the roof jacks before letting it back down again. I would have loved to have a photo of the expression on my face right as that was happening....I was on a condo job as part of the framing crew a couple years later. Several buildings. One of them was framed to top plate of the thrid floor and crane had just lifted truss package into place, then lunchtime. We sat down to eat when we felt the same kind of sudden downslope wind. It hit that building and we watched it lift 8-10" up and then come all the way down like a house of cards. Fortunately, only one guy was in it and he was laying down for a lunchtime nap on the third floor when it went. He got the rest of the day off to change his shorts.No tie hardware was required there and then, but that would have held the structure together.
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the code demarcation line for the 110 / 120 mph cutoff is the North Kingstown / South Kingstown line
and SK & Narragansett both have large Inspection staffs and lots of time on their hands..
of course they were also the coastal communities that had the greatest damage in the hurricane of '38... remember that one ?
u do ? .. damn .. u must be older than me..
made your plans for JLC _Live in Prov. yet ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
let's just say that you'll be complaining about social security payments before I will, Mike.The hurricanes I remember were BOB that came over my front porch in about '89 opr so with about 88MPH winds and the remnants I saw of Camile on the Gulf coast in about '68.
I also drove through one in '71 on the Fla panhandle that seemed more rain than wind and I can't remember her name.But most of my personal experience with wind is from out west. I lived in Lubbock Texas for three years and saw lenty of tornado action from a distance and second day removed.
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We had a series go through this area 1 1/2 ago.
Been several news articles about it.
And the last few months JLC story on it.
Tornado come in several grades (I think 5). And they plot the strength of the storms over the path that they took. And they will change from time to time.
You are right a direct hit with the strongest one is toast.
But all hits are not direct. And all storms are not max strength.
The reports shows that a number of them could be saved for a small increment in cost.
Bill we had a tornado touch down in the next sub. They tore the entire garage off the house...not the trusses!
Two houses away, there was no damage.
Should we start putting lightning rods on every house because sometimes lightning hits houses?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
I am not sure, but i have always thought that they give a free trip to the bahamas to the architect that specs the most simpson stuff! Probably at the same awards cerimony that they hand out the 50,001 Mile engineering award for the car engineers. RZ
I'm beginning to think that too robzan. It is getting ridiculous. For instance, instead of simpson ties, we could simply nail a 2x4 block of wood into the wall and truss. It would be faster and safer and instead of having zero roofs blow off...we'd have...well...zero roofs blow off!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
"Should we start putting lightning rods on every house because sometimes lightning hits houses?"
Now that is completely different comment from the first one, ie that they don't do any good.
In any kind of "safety" upgrade there is always the cost/benifit trade off.
That ranges from upgrading building codes, even having building codes, to air bags to number of fire stations, to vacinations.
It is always will a relatively large number of people spending a relatively small amount of money in the end worth saving a few people a large expense.
But I have never seen numbers for this.
And I would not be surprised if no one has run any good research on this.
It is easy to go in front of a group like the code people with some numbers like $35,000,000 damage was done last year on 400 homes. We feel that with an extra $250 per home those loses could be reduced to $20,000,000.
Well that all look very good.
But no one mentions that it is not 400 homes that the $250 is going to be spent on, but rather 100,000 homes that are built this year and the total cost is $25,000,000 to save $15,000,000 in loses.
Now all of these number are made up to show the concept. Good reseach might show that in the long run that there is a large saving, or it might show that it is a net cost.
Now I'm confused. Are you saying ligthning rods don't work?Big Macs - 99 cents
FD,
4Lorn would know better that me, but from what I've read on the subject, most residential installations don't do much other than making the house a more likely candidate for a strike.
Not that they can't afford protection, just most aren't done right, and do more harm than good.
WSJ
The farm house is about ground zero for lightning strikes. Power line poles are charred near the ground. The maple in the front yard is charcoaly black on one side. A few years ago the old blacksmith's shop burned down after lightning struck it.
I've lost three phone line surge surpressors in the last year.
Before Dad moved west he warned me not to stand between the kitchen and the bathroom in a lightning storm. He said there was eerie blue light.
I found a place on the web, http://www.lightningrod.com. I was thinking about putting some rods up when I reroofed. I was thinking of two rods on the ends and some on the chimney. I would make it look more like the old farm house it is.
The roofer I got a bid from, he shook his head at me like I was a nut case when I asked if he could add lightning rods. When I read the above, I was beginning to wonder if lightning protection was just a myth. Big Macs - 99 cents
When I read the above, I was beginning to wonder if lightning protection was just a myth. "
Farmer,
Not sure if you're referring to your link or the thread.
It is my understanding (and I may be wrong) that lighting follows a path that it kind of creates as it goes via ionization. (super-heated ionized air is more conductive) If you try to protect your house with lighting rods, they my or may nor redirect the bolt. In any event, they should (assuming they are doing their job) vaporize or at least melt.
I have heard (read???) that the lighting grounding cables that NASA uses for the tower used to launch the Space Shuttle measure 24" in diameter and are constructed of serrated stainless steel. Obviously large enough to carry the current.
I personally doubt a 1/8" ground wire, regardless of the alloy, would carry the wattage of a lighting bolt.
WSJ
1/8" grounding rod?
Are you assuming or?????I got a bid to rod-protect a house which included a 1" coper ground wire top to bottom. I have worked on other roofs that had a ( I am guessing) 1/2" to 5/8" rod wire.
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agree with the point on cost / bernfit analysis, but that it should inclusde some factor for lives and injuries saved, and not just for property damage.everytime i see on TV a rep[ort of earthquaks in Turkey, China or India, or Floods in pakistan, etc, and the resulting property damage and loss of life, I marvel at how few lives are lost in siliar things in this country over the past fifty years, I believe to a large degree because of codes written and enforced.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I agree with your point:"agree with the point on cost / bernfit analysis, but that it should inclusde some factor for lives and injuries saved, and not just for property damage."There is also the peace of mind knowing that given anything short of a direct hit or storm of the century the house will survive relatively intact. Further reinforced by the value of the houses contents and especially anyone sheltering inside.Never underestimate the value of peace of mind. Billions are spent on insurance that is not used. The value coming primarily from the comfort of knowing the insurance is there.
A true cost/benifit analysis will include eccomonic cost of any potential cost of life.
A true cost/benifit analysis will include eccomonic cost of any potential cost of life".
And Bill, what is the value of a life? Be careful.....I made a lot of non-friends in "Ethics in Marketing" class debating that one.
Jon
In this aspect it can only be in "eccomonic value". I know that is cold, but really that is the only way to compare the trade off of what is typically one set of damages against another. Althought it is often not done directly as an if you do A there will be 200 deaths and if you do be there will be 199 deaths. But in fact that is what is works out to be.Now it is easy when you are dealing with things where the number of lives are high. But not when there are real small like we are taling about with the trust clips and the incremental cost is small. IT is too easy to say you why wouldn't you spend the extra $75 to save a life and then have a picture of a child that was crushed when a tornado blew a house down on her". BUT - Completely ignoring the fact that this particular house was not only in a F0 tornado and it did not collapse becuase of lack of ties, but the house was in dangerous condition to start with and none of the others around it without clips fell, that this was the only death in a area of 1 million homes that where exposed to this storm, and that while it is ONLY $75 to "save a life" that is $75 per home and means $750,000 annual cost for the area and if what would be the affect of spending that amount of money for tornado warning alarms or community shelters. Or even something completely different such as more school crossing guards.
Bill, your numbers look good...a little low..but good. Were spending at least three hours at $58.50 each per house...and that doesn't include the nails, clips, or wear and tear on the tools.
The key thing you missed is the eventual harm that WILL occur to the tradesmen. There will be eye injuries from shooting nails into the plates. There WILL be fall injuries from tradesmen falling off ladders. There WILL be cuts from handling the clips.
I'm just wondering if were spending more money and making an even trade on the injury/death data.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
That might make a good argument for not using pneumatic nailers too!
or
gaurdless saws
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That would be a good argument Piffin, but we have to use saws, and we have to nail. So, the choice is ours...we're the ones doing the installation.
That saw really bothers you doesn't it? If it does, and if you want me to use a guard, I'll be glad to...but only after you win a debate about it. If you want, I'll start a new thread about it.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue Eye
I've been following this thread regularly, What gets me is that you keep saying it adds to the cost of a house and the $ come out of your pocket. If EVERY GC has to comply, I don't see how, since it's a level playing field. The loser, would be the consumer, if what you say is true (that they are useless).
I as a consumer building a house (OK not me, but if I were) could care less about spending what amounts to chump change, on clips if it even slightly reduces the risk of 1) my roof blowing off, or 2) my neighbors roof blowing off and striking my house.
If they are useless, come up with, and propose a better system, not whine about the current one,
WSJ
Jon, you're obviously believing the guys that are saying theres a problem. If you fundamentally believe that there is a problem, then the clips make sense.
I KNOW there isn't a problem. Roofs aren't blowing off. If it was a problem, then we should not only put the hurricane clips on, but also tie the studs to the plates...which is something we're not doing. You probably can't understand this, but it's critical to understand what I'm talking about. The plates will lift off the studs with a very minimal effort, yet were now tieing the trusses to the plates like...like...a HURRICANES COMING!
I don't have any better idea to offer other than to say if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Three toenails has worked and will work. The do gooders and "better to overbuild it" crowd have imposed their will, even though its wasteful.
the other thing mentioned is the economics. Thats a tough thing to explain to a non contractor, but lets just agree that since I'm in the business, I'm telling you the truth. The truth is that were not getting paid enough for me to continue contracting, and I'm one of the more "profitable" contractors. I'm averaging over $51.00 per hour per man and going broke. I just got off the phone with my partner and we were discussing strategies to cope again. To you $200 per house is chump change...and I agree...except that we've been getting hit like that and much bigger at a pretty steady rate and now we've moved into red ink territory and neither of us can figure out how to fix it. We're already bidding jobs that are substantially more than the builders are paying, so we cant' just go and get an increase.
I call this the "shakeout" cycle. We'll be able to hang on, but I don't like it. And the money doesn't start working out till the end of the cycle...which might take 5 years.
You the consumer are reaping the rewards of earnest thrift measures that have helped the average American house owner enjoy many benefits, including record numbers of homeowners. If it weren't for guys like us, streamlining the building process as much as possible, average Americans would be priced out of home ownership just like the Europeans are...the Europeans who insist on building everything to last centuries...
You have to pick your poison...
blue
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
the other thing mentioned is the economics. Thats a tough thing to explain to a non contractor, but lets just agree that since I'm in the business, I'm telling you the truth. The truth is that were not getting paid enough for me to continue contracting"
Blue,
The guys you are competing against have to install clips too. You are getting paid to install clips. That's factored in the price, or should be. NOBODY gets out of installing them, but you would like to. If you're not makin' money, hate to say it, you're spending too much time here.
WSJ
I'm not making money any more, but it doesn't have anything to do with what I'm doing or not doing.
When the new codes came in, I didn't hear any builders agreeing to chip in an extra $200 for our labors. The hourly demands just go up, but the framing prices remain stagnant.
It's just one of the sad facts of our existence.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
The hourly demands just go up, but the framing prices remain stagnant. "
Time to Unionize Blue...
WSJ
I'm not making money any more, but it doesn't have anything to do with what I'm doing or not doing.
I can't even begin to think of a way to reply to that.
LOL, I'd rather not win that debate, because it will only happen when you or one of your men has a gash in your leg.
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I didn't mean to imply that only engineers and academics need apply for code councils or boards. Most of the bodies are open, at some level to anyone with experience in the field. Most seem to have one or more seats set aside for a contractors with little more than a few years experience. The idea to provide a balance to too lofty a process. A 'hands on' practical point of view.Additionally the various board members typically maintain snail-mail, e-mail and regular public meetings. All designed to allow public comment and input. Similarly the code process itself is a series of proposed changes the goes from committee to committee. Each iteration being open to commentary, lobbying and input.This process is at odds with the idea that codes are assembled on high and imposed on the unwitting and helpless contractors and tradesmen lacking any potential input in the process.Once written the adoption of the code by the locality is similarly open to commentary and input. At each level engaging the process is not difficult. It is helpful to have some background and minimum education on the subjects one wishes to comment on. At minimum a working knowledge of the terminology is very helpful. As is having something intelligent to say.
Thanks for that dissertation on getting codes written 4lorn. Now that I've alerted you to several useless fasteners that are now code, maybe you can start an email campaign to get the code amended.
Do you know of any useless codes that you have to follow?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Re:"Do you know of any useless codes that you have to follow?"At one time I thought I did.Then I looked into it more and found out I was wrong. Good thing I didn't go on any bulletin boards and bitch about it.One of my teachers was on one of the minor NEC boards and went out of his way to inform us about how it worked and how we could make changes if we really thought it necessary. He also made it clear we needed to understand what the code was trying to do, why and how before we jumped on any apparent inconsistencies or mistakes.The codes are not perfect. If they were they wouldn't be rewritten and reviewed regularly. They are not perfect but they are very good and getting better. Evidently some local officials thought that the changes were due and beneficial to your area. You might look into talking to the local inspectors. Possibly an insurance company or two. They might have a wider perspective as to the number of homes that have been damages by failure of the truss to top plate joint.Of course the code was likely accepted as a package. Most are. So the real driving factor may have been in other areas. The hurricane straps just came along for the ride. A minor improvement with minimum utility that is a statistical and structural wash in your area. A minor improvement little needed but at minimal cost. Possibly of more utility in higher wind zones but enforced to maintain uniformity and to simplify enforcement.
Then I looked into it more and found out I was wrong. Good thing I didn't go on any bulletin boards and bitch about it.
You bitch about things....I discuss them.
I discuss things...you whine.
If you don't like talking shop...stay in the tavern.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Re:"You bitch about things....I discuss them.I discuss things...you whine."LOL. Good to see someone gives you some credit. Too bad it had to be yourself. Nothing like a whining, self-aggrandizing, complainer.Keeping up with standards is part of being a professional tradesman. These standards will improve with time. Which is why we no longer use mastodon hides or wattle and daub. Welcome to the twenty-first century. Do try to keep up.
$lorn, Its obvious that you aren't understanding this topic. You probably don't have any idea of what our hurricane clips look like. If you did, you wouldn't be talking with such a low grasp of the situation.
Are you related to Gabe or Joe? Your beginning to sound a lot like both of them....
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Actually I do know what they are, some of their variations, and have even installed a hundred or two. I have helped build a few houses outside of my normal job. Given a little time I could come up with a rough calculation on the structural side of it.Seems like the electrician knows more about this than the whining carpenter.Expect the AHJ to start upping the standards for sheathing or demanding those all-thread rods. Your more than welcome to come back and whine about that when it happens. LOL.
Re: ... "do something that's not needed."
Assuming you were qualified to make such a call, a few courses and certifications in engineering, statics and structures, you could apply to be on one of the boards that write or approve the relevant codes.
Seeing as that you likely do not quality you will just have to keep sniping and griping. Leaving the important decisions to those who get educated and trained.
Oops... I didn't think I was going to stir up the "everything that the government does is right" crowd with this thread.
The only thing I'm qualified to do is observe....I've observed that in my 51 years, I don't know of a single house that had it's roof lifted off. I see the new codes as fixing something that aint broke.
I remember the days when they allowed joist angles. Never heard of any joist failing....all of a sudden joist angles are good enough...Simpson hanger are now required....
I see a pattern....
It won't be long and we'll be tieing our trusses with threaded simpson rods to our foundations....
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
FWIW, I had it out with 4 L over junction boxes a while back, and I am still a scarred man. Don't mess with this guy, he'll tie ur undies up in a knot so tight ur balls'l turn blue and we'll have to give you a new name!!!! I'm still in therapy because of him. It's hard to argue with an expert.
I agree with you to a point. I know of a product that was introduced to the UL at a point in time. It was something not being used by the trade at the time. UL says ok we like that product and we will make it code to use it. Well guess what. Code changes and all of a sudden new product is mandatory. Trades people I talked to said it wasn't an improvement but an added expence and a PIA. Can't guess that a little green got passed around eh?
Another FWIW; I visited a site on Block Island (mid to north atlantic) where a Lindal Cedar home was being built on a bluff overlooking the ocean. They had strapping from the rafters all the way down to the foundation. Sometimes these devices are needed and serve a purpose, best to work with it and charge appropriately.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Firebird,
I remember that thread about hidden J boxes. I think the clincher was when someone pointed out that the wiring -- no matter how good it was -- still has to be inspected.
The UL device you mentioned is probably the AFCI [Arc Fault Circuit Interupter] which is pure fraud. They have a 30ma ground fault detector built into them which seems to do most of the work.
As for the hurricane clips, they seem to make sense. Nails have poor pullout resistance.
~Peter
I bet everyone is expecting another clever tirade about Mrs. Stewart, but you are now disappointed.
The hurricane clips would make sense...if we ever had houses that were getting their roofs blown off...we aren't...and every time a tornado goes through, the news vans are out there showing some trees smashing a house....shouldn't we just cut down all the trees?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Eric...suck it up...you gotta fight the forces of evil....go get scarring therapy!
Okay...I've got an electrician on the bandwagon....hey...I'm not here trying to argue this stuff...I'm just wondering if I'm the only one that is noticing the stupidity of our "construction" leaders.
Wonder if anythings happening in the plumbers worlds too?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Wonder if anythings happening in the plumbers worlds too?
All the time.
That's right sir, the price of that new water heater just went way up because some idiot decided to store a can of gas next to the water heater and some jury may find the maker of that water heater responsible.
"It won't be long and we'll be tieing our trusses with threaded simpson rods to our foundations..."
Actually, I did just that in my spec house. (That I now live in)
Like Bill Hartmann said - All hits are not direct. And all storms are not max strength.
I think wind design is the most overlooked issue in new houses. Toenails aren't enough to keep a roof on in winds upwards of 100 MPH. And winds like that aren't uncommon here in the midwest.
I want that roof to stay on if my Wife and kids are in there.Transvestites are men who like to eat, drink, and be Mary.
Boss...I'm 51 years old and the highest wind I've ever heard of is 60mph....and that happened last year. If a roof ever blew off...it makes the news on every channel. It just aint happening.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
The interesting thing to me as how well so many of those old homes across the midwest have stood up through so much wind. That, said I used to volunteer on tornado clean-up crews when I was a kid. Whew! You could see some amazing stuff right after a big tornado.You're unique! Just like everyone else! Scott Adams
Hello Boss,
Just reading thru' the thread and noticed that you said (Post 33?) that you had tied your house from "crete to truss".
Just wondering how you did that. i.e. what kind of strapping or clips or rod.....??
I live in a seismic zone, southern British Columbia, and winds are not a factor, but earthquakes are inevitable.
I am inquiring re my own old house, (nearing 100 years) and my reno customers.
Thanks
Alan
"you said that you had tied your house from "crete to truss". Just wondering how you did that. i.e. what kind of strapping or clips or rod.....??"
Starting with the J-bolts in the foundation and working up - I put coupling nuts on the J-bolts and ran threaded rod up through the bottom plates of the walls. A nut and washer were added to hold the bottom plate down. It looks roughly like this: (Closest drawing I could find)
View Image
Then to attach the bottom plate to the studs, I used the Simpson SP1. It's shown in the lower left-hand corner of this picture. Again, it was not exactly as shown - This is the best pic I could come up with.
View Image
I made sure every other truss stacked on a stud. So every other truss was tied down to a stud with a Simpson H2:
View Image
This is not in any way an "approved" system. I just did it on my own because I wanted to. We have no (enforced) codes here, and no building department.
The trouble with the voice of experience is that it won't keep its mouth shut.
Thanks for the reply and pics, Boss.
That system must give you a good feeling of security!
I thought of another useless thing that the inspectors make us do.
They want us to put a nail in every hole in those POS plastic nailing fins that won't hold anything in on the clad windows. I'm in awe that any inspector actually thinks those fins hold anything. After the window is nailed.....about fifty nails, the entire window will shake at least 1/2". If we put 12 nails total in...it shakes a 1/2". If we put 50 nails in...it shakes a 1/2".
Only a moron would actually believe that those POS plastic fins do anything but balance the windows till either the caulk grabs it, or the trimmer shims and nails the window jambs.
We don't do many clad jobs....thankfully. I told Frank that were just going to tear those fins of the next job and pitch them in the rubbish bin. I'll figure a different way to mount the windows.
I just crack up when I think about those inspectors worrying because their arent enogh nails in the fins. Some of those guys are clueless.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Just had an inspector ask us to replace those nails with #14 screws...I think this guy gets a cut on #14 screws locally. I asked him if I could use 1/4 lags because they were cheaper, as a joke, and he said no he was worried about splitout.
Unbelievable! HOw many #14's are going into the truss plate? We have to put in five nails in the plate and five in the truss. Quite often the five in the truss is overkill and weakening the wood.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
The same, but we are drilling pilot holes, we is a very cost effective reflection on the bid. I only did it where I thought he could see it and oddly enough all the ladders were packed away for the reinspection. Oh we have a reinspection fee of $39.00 per trip plus mileage if it's beyond a 50 mile radius of there coffee pot. My favorite personal inspection was in Stehekin, Wa. It can only be reached by float plane or ferry, so it's an all day commitment. Google it up, it's 55 miles up the end of Lake Chelan, the gateway way to North Cascades NBational Park. The project we were doing was for the National Park Service with inspection by both the county and the Army Corp of Eng. These two authorities could not agree about anything with the Corp flying up once a week and the county, maybe once every two weeks + a state electrical inspector. You couldn't get cover inspections because of the electrical being so far out and you couldn't cover anything because the county wanted nailing inspections on sheathing. Supplies came by ferry, you sent your truck up on a barge a month before, and there was only one phone that worked, a publc satellite phone, which you placed your order for misc. material on by 9:00 am for nextday delivery by ferry. This was a fueling facility and generator backup project + a few out buildings, one supplier had to fly a gas island pump up in a Beaver DeHaviland. Boy, did we make money on that one. You don't want to pay a crew to sit at prevailing wage while you wait for an inspection.
Pye, that story reminds me of the time we spent on Mackinaw Island....no vehicles allowed....hauling everything by drayline.
The pilot holes are a good idea. We've been bantering about shooting through the jamb with the longest galvanized finish nails that we can get, but pilot holes and galvanized 16d casing nails sounds stronger.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
blue, don't be getting too blue or wound up about this, but I'm getting a good laugh out of ya here. A week or so ago, you were the biggest fan the code ever had when refering to the fact that it backed you up when you didn't want to add blocking in floor framing. Now suddenly, the code sucks....or is it blows?
Depends which way the air is moving, eh?
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Don't laugh too hard Piffin. That code that eliminated the useless bridging is exactly the same one that required the hurricane clips. Obviously someone sold that legislating group a bill of goods. Maybe if they'd look at reality about the clips, the same way as they looked at reality regarding bridging...I wouldn't have this beef.
Do you know of any useless code that you are forced to follow?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
blue, I think you have a valid point in there somewhere. Not every bit of code is likely to be needed on every building, BUT this is like cooking hamburgers to 180 degrees: Not all burger has harmful bacteria that need to be heat killed, but to be sure the fast food places have to follow the rule anyway. (not to compare framers to burger flippers! I hasbeen a framer, but I only flip burgers at home)
This is a highly political topic as you can tell when these crazed liberals such as 4Lorn1 and Piffin band together and jump on you!
{G, D, & R}
You're unique! Just like everyone else! Scott Adams
Ewe meant to say 'those hard core conservatives like Piffin and 4Lorn' didn'tchu?'sides, I ain't yumpin on him, just bouncing a little on the mattress.;)
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LOL
It's always curious to see who we agree with on certain topics, isn't it?
If 4Lorn1 is a conservative, he must be some new type.... ah! a Neo-Conservative!
I just made that up... maybe it'll catch on.
; )You're unique! Just like everyone else! Scott Adams
Good analogy Hasbeen...the only problem I see is that burger flippers have a better future and will soon be making more money too!
The professor made a good point over in the Tavern (Luka's chasing him out right now with the fly swatter). He said something about those foundation straps buried in the courses of block and mortar...which hold about nothing!
I'd redirect you to the thread..but Luka's already upset enough...I wouldn't post any more construction stuff in there...
Sofar though...we've established that we need to anchor the heck out of the sill plate....so it will stay when the rest of the house flys away....thats good...green wood is expensive! And....we need to fasten the trusses to the plates, so when the tornadow hits...the top plates fly away with them....that's good becasue theres a fairly good chance that the entire stack will land in the yard and we can lift the trusses and plates back up all at once.
Lets see... the joist angle issue...I think we should pass a law and make it mandatory that we tear into all the existing housing stock, remove the offending joist hangers that have worked so well and re-install the flimsy simpson joist hangers. That way, when the tornado hits.....when were hiding in the basement, we can look up and see how beautiful the simpson "buckets" are.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I think you should have ties all the way from the crete to the top chord.Tag, You're it
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Piffin...I agree...and that's exactly my point. Were now putting hurricane clips and nailing them into the top plates....which are nailed into the studs with two 3" gun nails. The foam sheathing probably won't hold those plates down either despite the fact that there wide crown staples every 8".
It's a colossal waste of time and resources. Somebody sold the code people a bill of rights...or the code board is loaded with "important" people who feel they have to keep adding layers of "safety" or they aren't doing their job.
The problem I have with it all is that I know for sure there will be a lot more serious injuries installing these clips and theres no tangible benefits.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I think that before a roof blows off, the wind gets in at a weak point. The ties help to eliminate the weak points at the edge of the roof. Once a strong wind gets under part of the roof, no amount of hardware will be able to resist the force.
It's kind of like opening a bag of potato chips. If you just pick a spot on each side of the bag and pull, you will be frustrated. If you pick the right spot, the bag will yield. If you keep applying force at that point, you will have chips all over the room.
The same thing happens to a roof.Les Barrett Quality Construction
I t sonds like you have replaced plywood sheathing with foam. In that case, you are right, and you should have added one of the other tie straps to hook the plates to the studs and so on. I stilll use ply or advantech sheathing. Fom belongs on the inside3 of the wall anyway. Putting it outside in a heating climate causes other problems. whoever is designing the houses you are building needs to go back to school.
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Well Piffin, you better send that advice to about 2000 custom builders in the Metro Det area. I'm not involved at any level in the design or specifications. They hand me plans, and I stand it up.
I'm sure your statments regarding the placement of foam insulation is debatable by someone other than me. I don't know anything about insulation. All I know is rough framing.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Some places require metal ties from sill to truss. I've installed them in Scottsdale, AZ.
Nothing much is required here, but I spent a lot of extra time and $ staggering OSB so that a 9' sheet split lengthwise from lower wall across the floor framing and onto the upper wall. It's OSB, but it's still an improvement over not doing it.
I also built in a noticable low spot and we don't get the same wind the neighbor above us gets.You're unique! Just like everyone else! Scott Adams
Hasbeen...I would understand this new stuff if they made us tie it from foundation to truss...but we don't have to. The stuff we are doing adds nothing to the structural integrity of our systems. It's a false hope.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I don't know what type building you are doing, but don't you use sheeting on the outisde of the walls? And if you do, don't you face nail the sheets into the sill plate? And if you do nail sheeting to the sill plate, what, besides an H2.5 or similar, would be providing the same holding power between wall and truss and the anchor bolts and nailed sheeting provide at the bottom?
In thinking back, the homes I built where I had to tie from sill plate to truss were built with no wall sheeting: it was metal wind bracing, a felt paper backed stucco netting stapled over the studs, and three coat stucco. I used to hate it. Wondered if it would break if a kid bounced a basketball on it.You're unique! Just like everyone else! Scott Adams
Hasbeen, we "platform" build. Each floor has its own deck. The decks are toenailed to the sill plate. The wall sheating does not nail to the sill plate....good grief...I hope that detail isn't next on the list!
I'm not opposed to doing those things....but it isn't necessary in this climate. No houses are losing their walls or roofs unless the tornados make a direct hit. When it hits direct, there is no way of stopping the damage. Like I said, I worked in tornado areas after one hit. I was putting a new roof on a house. Across the street, there was a basement left with a chimney standing. Next door, the house had one shingle missing and a broken window.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Yeah, platform framing is the standard I'm used to.
Maybe I've got the term wrong, but to me a sill plate (or mud plate) is the one that sits on the foundation. The plate at the bottom of each wall I simply call the bottom plate.You're unique! Just like everyone else! Scott Adams
Has anybody else read the OCT issue of JLC?It has a good article on exactly this based on tornados in MO last year.Right now my copy is burried so I can't give the details.
Hasbeen our terminology is the same. It is called a mudsill because in the golden olden days (before my time), the sill was actually set by carpenters in a mud bed. The mud bed was probably critical when stone was used for fondations.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Did you check the house next door that had only a missing shingle and a broken window to see if it had the hurricane clips?
Hehehehehe..no pizza...hurricane clips weren't invented yet.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
But you lowland dwellers have to worry about mudslides, septic overflows, and avalanches, LOL
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You're right about one thing...
If I saw an avalanche headed for Walsenburg I'd be worried all right!You're unique! Just like everyone else! Scott Adams
I thought Durango was home to you
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Nope. I'm on the other side of the big lump.
There was someone from Durango posting here for awhile, but I can't remember the name. I want to say he's a designer of some sort.
Here, we just get excited if the "rivers" actually have flowing water in them!You're unique! Just like everyone else! Scott Adams
Your turn to rattle me. What is a joist angle?
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I must be showing my age....
A joist angle used to be required when joists were nailed into headers. They are (we still keep a box of them) about 3" x 3" x 9" (they also come in 7", 5", 3"). In the real olded days they were rather beefy...approaching 1/4" in thickness. Eventually they lost a lot of weight and are now about the same as a light joist hanger.
We used to put one on each joist.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Since when does a safety issue get decided solely on money issues? If a device saves just one life all of that "wasted time and resources" is worth it.
End of discussion. Next topic?
And,yes, some things ARE black and white. This is it.
pizza
Not to argue with you on the subject but you obviously no little about actuary science.
Since when does a safety issue get decided solely on money issues
It is done every day, from the car you drive to the food you eat.
Doug
Yes I know nothing about actuary science. But I know the value of life.
Your not one of those over analyzing eggheads that will analyze every little decision and boil everything down to some statistic so much that you forget the goal of saving a life.
Pizza don't be silly. Our entire manufacturing process ALWAYS make decisions knowing that some lives will be lost that could be avoided.
Make me king and there will never be another traffic fatality...of course we'll all be traveling at 5mph!
I will stick my neck out and say that there hasn't been a fatality related to roof trusses blowing off in the state of Michigan....EVER! I think its safe to say that there will be many serious injuries related to installing hurricane clips and dare I say...deaths too!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
"Make me king and there will never be another traffic fatality...of course we'll all be traveling at 5mph!"But what about the people with a heart attack that will die during the now 4 hr trip to the hospital?
Not true Bill...everyone would just move closer.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue, can you give me a little more detail on the injuries and possible deaths associated with the installation of hurricane clips? Seems this is a real concern of yours. Would just like a little more info on what type of injuries you are experiencing and what it is that might cause the death.
Shoeman, I smell a trap...but here goes.
I personally haven't experiencd any problems. I'm estimating that many of the truss clips will be installed off ladders. Working on ladders will lead to injusty, some serious, some leading to death. I reason that the less time spent on ladders, the safer the workers will be.
Understand that my personal point of view is that there have been zero deaths in Michigan caused by roof truss connection failure. I'm from the school that says if it ain't broke...don't fix it.
Remember, some of these truss clips will be installed on ceilings as high as 20' or more. If I remember from my OSHA safety class, the average height of falls that lead to deaths is 4'.
I hope I sidestepped the snare...
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
really not a snare at all, I assumed the injuries you were reffering to were similar to those we face in the trades every day
Rather than just assume, I wanted to know if there was some type of injury potential that was specific to hurricane clips - you were driving the injury thing home on many posts and I just thought it better to ask in case there was something specific I should be aware of to prevent injury when I install clips.
So thanks for your reply
stay snare free
Given your statements, I assume that you don't drive and are a lobbyist for eradication the most dangerous tool in the world: the automobile.You're unique! Just like everyone else! Scott Adams
Code? What's a code?
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Aluminum wiring ,plly butlyn pipe ,rier retardent roof sheathing ,all code approved i believe
Around here, we don't see any aluminum wiring. It may be illegal...I don't know. We only use fire retardent roof ply on multi-families to create a fire break between units. I don't know anything about the polly butyl pipe.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Maybe it doesn't work the same in new construction but in repair and remodeling I always look at a new requirement as a new price increase. Especially at first when few understand it we try to become the expert and cash in.
In our area they started adding check valves to the water system so during a line break the didn't lose so much treated water. Because of this they now require expansion tanks on all water heater installs. Are they a real neccesity? Only in a catastrophic moment whent he check valve happens to be in your neighborhood and you and 10 of your friend all have water heaters running on a water system with no pressure at the same time. But hey, they cost $40 each plus fittings, 40% mark up and a half an hour charge to install, bingo and extra 40 bucks on every job. DanT
Dan, if we were getting compensated, I'd be a lot less aggravated. Basically, every framing crew is scrambling for their financial lives. The only ones doing well are those whose wives are working...
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Square D's parent group has recalled it's entire line of arc fault breakers....the rumor is ever ckt.brk. regardless of brand uses the same faulty chip.
Have had to put those clips on some scissor trusses once since I've been here in VA. Not really understanding the 'toenailing'reason as rafters are toenailed along with ceiling joists.I guess it may be the number of nails used,eh?I DIDN'T DO IT...THE BUCK DOES NOT STOP HERE.
Thats the other odd thing Framer...we don't have to put hurricane clips on conventional framing! Three toenails still hold the conventional stuff!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
Earlier in my career i worked a a superintendent for a builder in the city of Detroit. ( I must have angered the Gods) The city insisted on the Hurricane clips on 46 of my homes. The inspector finally told me that they went to a tanning conference with guest speakers. This is why they wanted the clips.
The final outcome was a carful look at the code and if the home was exposed to a Long distance of open area eg. a lake or a fairway ( I cant remember off the top of of balding head but the exact distance but it is ruffly a 1/4 mile the roof trusses need to be secured) Most Builders are afraid to lock horns with an inspector unless it is going to cost time or cash.. this is why you got stuck with 10 extra hours labor on the job.
It pays to know which code "book" BOCA 95, 98 etc. is applicable to each building & community and have a copy (About $50.00) then you can reed the actual paragraph and make a valid argument with your Builder & the Knuckle Head inspector.
An old saying "those who cant Teach" Or Inspect
MICK
Mick, I've run into the same type of local yokel power trips. That has ended, to a large degree because we've adopted a statewide code. The local inspector no longer has the authority to create those type of personal requirements.
I'd be interested in hearing more about your experiences with Detroit as a superintendent. What/where were you building...and when?
I pulled one permit in the City of Detroit when I was young and dumb. I'd never do that again!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I rest my case."
Huh???
Blue,
Been following this thread for a while. Would you PLEASE STATE at what mph wind speed range at which you think H/T- clips either 1) offer some benefit, or 2) state that they do not offer any benefit at all at any wind speed.
WSJ
Jon, the clips themselves will hold a lot. Certainly they will hold more than toenails. My point is that there isn't a great deal of problems in this area. You mentioned 82 mph winds on Macinaw Island, but didn't note any roofs flying off because the trusses let loose. I now state that toenailed trusses will withstand 82 mph winds, which are rare in Michigan.
It's been established that the clips are now used because some trusses might be split if improperly nailed. I've accepted this explanation, and now will adjust my position to state that clips are a great idea to "fix" said splits. In the absence of these splits, I am correctly stating that they are overkill!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I just want to point out that different buildings produce different uplift. It's not just a function of where it is located. For example, a 50 or 60' truss is going to produce more uplift than a 30' truss at the same location. Pitch of a roof also affects uplift. You're likely to have a little more uplift with a 4/12 pitch than you would with an 8/12.
To say toenailing is adequate for 82 mph wind may or may not be the case. If the roof didn't fly off, were the nails loosened up? Could they withstand another gust? In some cases, it may be enough, in others it may not be.
I don't like the term "hurricane" clip. I know we don't have hurricanes in Michigan, but they're to prevent uplift. And as others have stated, they do no good if the path doesn't go down to the foundation.
And lets face it, you go to Mackinac Island for the fudge, not to see if any roofs blew off :)
let's face it blue.. you don't know what you are talking about..
and i'll give you this..
you can outframe me in a ny minute.. but you obviously have a great disdain for engineering principles..
you sound like all the olde timers i've spent my career around..
" this is how we've always done it"
that's the same bs as " you can't teach an olde dog new tricks"
too bad.... you're smarter than that .. i'm disappointed
and
as for your lame "safety" example..
we've been installing them on the inside .. standing on the floor.. with our N88RH guns
don't take much time .. and we put a nail in every hole..just like the mfr. call for
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/17/2004 10:21 pm ET by Mike Smith
MIke, I gotta say....you're also sounding a lot like gabjo.
I have no disdain for engineering principles. It's been established that toenails, when done properly conform to the MI uplift requirements. The code was established becaue some carpenters improperly nail and cause splits. So, they decided to put clips on ALL trusses, instead of just the splits.
I find that to be over the top...especially since our trade is collapsing under the weight of other expenses and our incomes are declining. Basically, were taking the hits from every angle...this is just another coupla thousand dollars per year out of our pocket and it adds nothing in terms of real value.
I had to laugh when you so pompously proclaimed that you "we've been installing them on the inside .. standing on the floor.. with our N88RH guns ...don't take much time .. and we put a nail in every hole..just like the mfr. call for". I'd like to see you stand on the floor in the last house we did. We had 10 clips...15 maximimum to install on 8' walls....which I need a step ladder for. You're fortunate that your tall and can reach up that high...we can't. But I'm really interested in watching you put the other 60 on wallls that ranged from 11' to 20'! I'm offering you ALL MY MILKBONES and a lifetime supply of Blue's Premium Milkbones, if you can stand on the "floor" and install those!
I'm curious...what do you think about strapping the mudsill and toenailing the deck to it? You think that some great engineering feat too?
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I have read this entire thread and I just don't get the big deal. I mean I spent 20 years in mid level management of maintenance staffs. Often you make a rule that is meant for the majority not the minority.
If I saw a consistant problem with framers not toe nailing correctly I would make the same guidline. Why? It is easy to inspect. You can do it from the floor in most cases. Now I don't know if your inspectors are busy or not but if so I would not want to make a rule that would tie up their time so they slowed down production of inspections and using the clips, even if a few nails were missed would seem a lot more reliable than 6 split toe nails on 6 different trusses.
Was this rule made for your company? Maybe not but I am sure more than half the framing companies in your area is not as experienced as yours so they are trying to find a solution to an issue that will solve a problems that could occur, protect the public to some degree and reduce inurance liability in their state. Frankly it all makes sense.
Just because it affects your company negatively doesn't make it wrong or for that matter a bad idea. If your profit margins are so tight that this item is going to send you over the edge then it is time to find another business. Or figure a way to do it quicker. Or look into getting it changed. Instead it has simply turned into an emotional rant on your part and made you look a little silly. Try and be more objective here. DanT
This is exactly the kind of thinking that gives management a bad name. Combine power with a logical argument and a complaint and you get a management solution. This is one reason we are up to our necks in nonsensical requirements on a nationwide basis. Les Barrett Quality Construction
Dan, you probably wouldn't understand what the big deal is, unless you've dedicated your entire life to saving seconds on everything you've handled and framed. I have. It really is annoying to work and scrimp and try to do a decent job...saving seconds that turn into minutes...saving minutes that turn into hours...then WASTE those precious hours doing something so useless, knowing that it will chip away another few thousand dollars out of a already way too low-paying job. It is extremely frustrating. Lets see...do I drop my full coverage of the truck and risk buying PLPD...or maybe just skip my retirement fund....?
The margins are way too thin and we already are moving our operation away from rough frame contracting. It's sad...when I started in the trade, we all earned a good living if we went to work every day...now....I don't know any legal contractor that is doing anything worthwhile. I know of ten that left the business this spring.
I've said all along...if this was actually accomplishing something...I'd have no beef.
Sorry for looking so silly Dan, maybe in my next life I'll be one of those non-thinking conformists.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Well, I think if you had the oppurtunity to meet some of the people that know me well you wouldn't here the term non-thinking conformist in the conversation about my personality.
But it is a matter of intelligence in my opinion to realize the value of an issue prior to picking your battles. If you are in business to make money as you have alluded to in the past when discussing your various partnerships and adventures then frankly the luxury of emotional battles can be an expensive one and are simply not advisable.
You can decide that people here who advise against bucking the code on this one are "non-thinking conformists" but I say most of them are turning a profit and are focussed on business battles they can win and profit at. Not he ones they cannot.
Choose as you wish but I think you have simply taken a business issue and turned it into an emotional issue. All of us have areas that we wish wouldn't change with time, but it always does and we can't stop it. At one time I was considered one of the best Quadrajet rebuilders/modifiers in my area. They haven't made one of those in 25 years or so. On to fuel injection!DanT
At one time I was considered one of the best Quadrajet rebuilders/modifiers in my area. They haven't made one of those in 25 years or so"
Dan,
Um' Edelbrock still makes 'um brand spankin' new.
Couldn't resist, but I agree with what you said there.
Jon
You are correct, I was speaking of the originals. Maybe you remember the ones you kicked in the back two barrels and the car died, lol. If it did finally kick in it could be a wild ride! Most guys in my area replaced them with Holleys but I learned, due to economics, how to make them run well. When set up correctly they were hard to beat. When not they just guzzled fuel. DanT
When set up correctly they were hard to beat"
Dan,
Very true, but few people knew how to work them, and they had limited CFM potential. While they were probably the most sophisticated carb ever, with extremely precise fuel metering, you need to know your stuff to modify 'um, and EFI did away with that anyway. Holley's were always so simple to work on, which obviously why they are still so popular. Plus at WOT, the fuel curve doesn't much matter.
Jon
Anyone here ever used recycled steel banding (from the lifts), in addition to or instead of, the usual clips?
pierre, if we wrapped twenty layers of the heaviest steel band around a truss and fastened it with 30 hardened steel nails...it wouldn't pass. We have to put those simpson ties on.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
blue.. i tried to respond to this yesterday.. but the damn thing wouldn't post
<<<
I'm curious...what do you think about strapping the mudsill and toenailing the deck to it? You think that some great engineering feat too?>>>
we have to secure our sill 4' on center, and 2' from every corner..
and then we tie everything from the sill to the ridge..
one way we can eliminate a lot of hardware is by making sure our ply ( osb , if you want) ties from the sill to at leas 16" up onto the stud..
AND.. from 16" below the palte to 16" above the shoe.. tieing the 1st floor to the 2d floor
the ply ties the double plates to the wall..
and the hurricane clips tie the rafters to the plate..
we also have to block ALL edges of our roofs within 4' of ALL perimeters.
if we use a ridge vent then we have to block the edge at teh vent and 4' down from that
RI recently amended the code to allow substituting 5/8 T&G ply roof sheathing for the edge blocking... guess waht we'll be using for roof sheathing from now on ?
here's a pic.. showing the middle row of sheathing left out until after the 2d floor walls are erected.. so we can tie the 1st floor to the 2d
View Image
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/19/2004 9:31 pm ET by Mike Smith
Mike...see..we agree again. Everything you are doing and required to do makes sense to me. I wouldn't mind doing any of it. My beef is doing things that I know makes no sense. I just feel that my life is precious and not to be wasted. I don't put three nails where two is correct. I don't put studs 12" oc. I don't put joist hangers on joist that are bearing...
I don't see anything wasteful about what your doing...you have wind issues.
Oh..wait...I do see something wasteful in your picture....WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU DOING WITH MASONS SCAFFOLDING ON A ROUGH JOB?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
rough.. smooth.. whatever.. we always stage so us olde timers can get close to the action...
View Image
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/20/2004 7:42 pm ET by Mike Smith
That scaffold is way too high! Only a Leprechan would build it so close to the beam!
I better head over there and show you how to get set up....
Seriously, why aren't you putting the sheathing and paper on the walls while they're being framed flat? Do you have nail inspections that require the sheathing to be exposed before covering?
I'd kill myself before I'd set up all that scaffolding to sheath the walls!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
blue... our staging is going to be used in the sheathing, papering, roofing,windows, triming, siding , and painting..
we have enough so we can stage the whole job..View Image
so . ...
would you really kill yourself ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/20/2004 9:54 pm ET by Mike Smith
Yes...now so more than ever!
What prevents you from putting all the sheathing, paper, siding, windows and trim on while the wall is laying flat? Is it the nail inspection issue?
I don't see anything that would preclude me from installing everything while the wall is prone.
Heres a coupla pics. the first is the round wall sheathed and ready for paper. The second shows the same wall standing. The third shows a different wall getting its gable.
No scaffold necessary. I noticed that you like to use big cranes...which I think is very wise. I think you aren't using them efficiently enough. You coulda had both of those gables sheathed, papered and laying flat waiting for the big guy to stand them up.
I'll come over and get you started....you gotta promise to give the scaffolds back to the mason though!
If I was the painter, I'd paint it before I stood it too!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
actually.. the scaffold was just right for guiding the beam into it's pockets and leaning over the peaks to fasten the ends..
then , without moving the scaffold, we staged the entire beam so we could set our rafters...
View Image
you're welcome to come give us an education though...we can always learn new tricks
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/20/2004 8:36 pm ET by Mike Smith
Thats a beautiful frame job Mike.
About the only other thing I would do differently is I wouldn't be so anal about splicing those rafter exactly in the middle. I prefer to lay them and nail them together. I'd probably drop the beam a little lower to facilitate a greater lap. Structurally though, there isn't much difference between out styles.
I prefer to set my scaffold much lower...low enough so I can walk end to end without bumping my head. That would mean I would be placing the highest plank 6'2" below the bottom of the beam. At that height I could reach above it and nail the rafters together. The reaching over the peak would be accomplished with a quick "perch" nailed onto the inside of the gable walls. I typically nail a 2x4 about 3' down so I can curl my toes into it and bend over at the waist. I feel safest that way when leaning over.
I prefer to set up plank scaffolds built into the walls. I have a variety of methods that I use but mostly I just keep adding planks till I have enough to get all the way around.
Heres a pic of a typical set up for me. I had to frame the boxed ceiling..probably an hours worth of work. If I had more work up there, I'd probably lay in a few more cross planks and overlay it with osb....maybe 6 sheets overlaying each other.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Mike, I noticed you had to custom cut each rafter...shortening them up 1/16th each time....I hate when that happens.
In my younger days, I used to frame roofs like that alone. On a deal like that, I wouldn't even use a scaffold....at least not in the common areas. I'd set the beam by hand (remember I said in my younger days...I was pretty stupid then) using the old one end at a time...on my shoulder....crib it after I get it up another two feet. Then we'd go do the other end. In those days we used a four man crew including me. They'd help me lift it with the proper size lift sticks. We'd have a new temp stick leaning and ready to put under the load. After about an hour of pure bullwork, the beam would be flying!
Then, I'd put the rafters up myself usually. I'd have them humping and stocking and I'd cut them all. If I had to do the 1/16th less per rafter, I'd number them. Then, after I had them all cut, I'd push them up and lean them on the lower scaffolding that was near the bearing wall. I'd then set and nail all the bottoms and climb like a monkey and nail the tops.
I'd get help on the valley and jacks after I cutthe package.
Usually there was some other wing of the house the rest of the boys would work.
Now that I think of it....I did it the same way on two months ago...the only difference is that I used the boom truck to send in the microlam valleys!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
blue.. nice framing.. but it would take some head scratching to figure how to pre-build everything and still get all my ties in place..
a lot of what you showed is the way we used to do things.. not as elaborate as your pics though..
but the continuous ties from foundation to ridge has slowed things a lot
.. i noticed in piffens link the following..
<<<THE STORM THEN WEAKENED PRODUCING DAMAGE CONSISTENT WITH 60 TO 80 MPH WINDS AGAIN FOR THE REMAINDER OF ITS WAY ACROSS EATON COUNTY. THE REST OF THE WAY ACROSS EATON COUNTY THE STORM TOPPLED OR UPROOTED TREES...TOOK OUT SOME POWER LINES...BLEW A HOME OFF ITS FOUNDATION AND BLEW IN GARAGE DOORS THAT THEN CAUSED GARAGE ROOFS TO LIFT UP AND CAVE IN. >>
the first paragraph was grand rapids county.. and the one above is eaton..
those wind damages sound like the same story as the wind damage in hurricane andrew.. once the wind gets inside the structure it lifts the roofs.. thisis what is happening to the code all over the US..
it's also why they are now designing windows to take an impact of a 2x4 shot out of guns... (REALLY ! ).. watch for code changes comming to your area..
some of it is climate change.. the storms are getting stronger and more frequent.. don't know if it's a long term change or a short term change.. who knows.. it might evn be some of your boy GWB's " non-existent global warming ( heh,heh, ... dig, dig )
anyways the pics are from our first frame under the new code.. so we're still adjusting.... i learned a lot.. i could save 2 days on just the connectors and blocking.. ( 2 days x 5 guys = 10 man days )...
and we're not framers.. we're builders, so we don't specialize.. probably shouldn't even be doing our own frames, we're too slow... but what the he*l.. gotta have some fun
as far as setting the beam.. it was an 8 x 18 x 40'.. i was thinking of setting it with our Proctor Wall Jacks.. then i thought ... wait a minute.. 4 guys screwing around.. with a 1000 lb. beam ... say 2 hours... ( $400).. or hire a crane for $200 and set it in one hour.. .. hmmmmmmm.. one is a pretty sure thing .. the other is a best case / worst case.... mebbe i ain't as dumb as i uster be.....
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/20/2004 10:18 pm ET by Mike Smith
You're all right Mike...I'd work for you...but I aint sheathig any wall vertically when I can do one flat...I'll just come in late on those days!
You might be right...climate changes might be happening...but if they don't make us strap the plates to the studs... nothing I'm currently doing is going to help...IMNHO (the n stands for NOT).
I put on a couple of dozen more hangers today. I laughed as I realized that simpson has designed our hurricane clips to have two holes within a 1/4" of the edge of the 2x4 bottom chord that we normally use. The wood splits as I nail those holes...but oh well...the engineers know better! I also find it somewhat comical that we now need 10 shear nails per truss, instead of the three toenails that WILL hold unless they split the truss bearing.
Does that make sense? Wouldn't 3 nails in the plate and three nails in the truss be enough? The engineers don't care...they're not filling them! And god forbid that the inspectors would actually think about the question of needing 10 where 3 used to hold...even in high winds!
Heres a pic of an engineering folly. The truss company has designed a vaulted hip end jack system. They hung the bottom chords lower than the supporting hip truss, thus creating a need for an elaborate hanger, with lots and lots of holes to fill. Frank already had it framed and then discovered that he had to insert those engineering wonders of hangers.
I mentioned that I would have trimmed all the jacks by about 1'' and I would have thrown all the hardware out because the jack would no longer be hanging down below the girder.
blue Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Heres the pics...I had trouble on the last post.
Forget it...i'm gettin errors.
I'll post them as soon as I reboot.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
One more time:Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
We have been required to use hurricane ties since the early 80s. Before that, the rafter to plate connection was three toenails. Often the toenails would split the heel and there was no connection. I can see why clips are standard. Toenailing connections were a joke. The roof was just floating. Most framers used 16ds instead of 8ds and the heel would explode. Clip connections are face nailed and clinched. Now THAT is a good connection. Combine that to the shear wall and you have a floor to ceiling fortress. It seems common sense to me that clips are better. Whats the problem?
You should try building in a seismic zone. You will have the Simpson catalog memorized before long.
Dogwood, were not in a seismic zone. We don't build shear walls.
Our wall have foam on them. We've essentially beefed up the truss to wall connection to about 100 times more strong than our plate to stud connection. I see a ton of irony in that.
I've nailed thousands of trusses with 16's without incident.
I positive that the truss uplift calculations don't take into account the closed overhang systems. The overhang systems themselves would easily take up any slack that occurs because of several split trusses.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
You know I was reading my FHB mag last night and noticed a roof truss article by Larry Haun. He uses hurricane clips and even recomends Simpson. Seems to think nothing of it. (G) DanT
Dan, Larry Haun also uses a wormdrive....enough said!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!