I have a Bradford white water heater that was in my hosue when I bought it. It looked near brand new, so I had no plans of replacing it. Its a 40 gallon gas. I’m not exactly sure of it’s age, but the yellow energy tag says that it’s calculations are based off of a 1992 figure. I don’t know if that shows its age or not. Anyway, my question is this. When I am the first to use the shower in the morning, I can only get about 10-15 minutes of hot water out of it. If my wife showers before me, and i wait an hour or so, I can get all the hot water I need and then some. I figured that since the house had a mixture of old galvanized and copper pipes before I ran the new pex, that the whole bottom of the heater was full of sediment. So on Friday, I turned off the water, closed all the valves on the manablock, opened the drain, and removed the releif valve. I drained 40 gallons of crystal clear water from the thing. So I closed the drain, and ran about 5 more gallons of clean water into the heater. this time I got a slightly cloudy result. So I continued this till I got nothing but clear water. I looked into the unit throught the side tap for the relif valve, and the dip tube looked brand new, so I’m ruling that out. I stuck a fish tape into the hold and trid scraping it around the bottom, and it didn’t feel like there was any thing down there sitting on the bottom of the tank. So I closed it up, replaced the relief vavle, and re-lit it. I’m still getting the same results from the first shower every morning. Second shower is fine and 5 days a week, I take the second shower, but it’s the two days that bother me. What gives? I’d rather not replace it since It would be very dificult to remove from the basement. Is there anything else I can try to get the thing to heat 40 gallons of water?
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Replies
Beats me, but I am watching this thread closely - I have exactly the same HW heater.
Not that well versed in HWH but it sounds almost like the thermostat is allowing the temp in the tank to get too low (hence the first shower water supply is cooler), once drawn down the burner kicks in and heats to temp X; temp X is achieved in the hour or so lag time and the 2nd user seems to have a limitless supply since that water did not have a chance too cool off in the tank.
You could do a little test by measuring maximum water temperature at the bathroom sink under several different conditions 1) first thing in the morning 2) after that first shower and 3) after an hour or so to give the heater time to recover but not cool off too much in the tank.
I don't know what the "delay" is in term of degrees but there must be some range built into the thermostat - someone will come along and shed more light onto this.
Good luck,
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
That actually sounds like a possibility. I'm no expert on HWH either, but liek i said, I'd rather not replace the thing. It did sit for somewhere between 3-5 years before I bought the house. I don't know if the thermostat could be damaged for non use.
When a water heater sits without any hot water demand, the water in the tank becomes stratified with the hot water on the top and cooler water on the bottom. That means that if your water heater has sat all night without the burner coming on, you could possibility have only 30 or 33 gallons of hot water in it. I don't know the flow rate in your shower but 10 or 15 minutes of 2 gpm would certainly drain the heater of the hot water in it.
If, however, the burner has functioned recently, the water in a gas water heater will have a much more uniform temperature and probably substantially more "usable" hot water. Hence, you get a better shower after the burner has run.
Compounding this situation, there is a dead band in your thermostat of probably 10 to 20 F. Hence, the temperature of your water heater's hotest water can drom 10 to 20 degrees over night without activating the burner. Hence, in the morning, you can not only have less hot water, the hot water is not as hot as well.
This is often called water heater morning sickness. I don't know of a good solution other than getting a larger water heater.
If you look at your serial number, most manufacturer's date code is very self evident...at least, you will be able to get a year of manufacture from it. If it is more than 8-10 years old, I suggest you replace it anyway to get one with higher efficiency.
Bill
Alright, so this is something that isn't repairable. If I have to replace it, I have to replace it, and I would rather use something more efficient. I'm limited in space though, so a larger water heater wouldn't be an option I don't think. I have onlt 50" to the bottom of the 3" flue. my current HWH is 48" tall by 20" dia. I can't really go any larger than that in either direction. I've considered the tankless, and I think I could make one of them work with a power vent, but I don't know anyone who has one, and I'm afraid I would't be happy with it. I could make anything shorter than 52" work with a power vent, but I don't know if I should spend the money since I plan to sell the house by this summer. I hate the standing pilot, but I don't know of any HWH with hot source other than power vented. Any recommendations? I got a price for an exact replacement for the Bradfore White at $410. Sounds kinda steep for a bottom of the line HWH form a good company. That price is from a plumbing supplier
Proposed action sounds a little extreme for a house you plan to sell this summer.
Any young children or oldsters in the house? If not, I would seriously consider jacking up the thermostat setting a bit or maybe an inventive installation of a small circulating pump in the immediate vicinity of the HWH - keep the tank stirred and avoid stratification - wouldn't take much flow - could even be on a timer.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I have a 17 month old daughter. I have the thermostat set two clicks above 120 already. I don't think I like overly hot showers, but I do like them warm. I rarely take a bath. it's been about 3 years. My daugher gets one every night, but she doesn't need much water. I agree that it's extreme to spend alot on a water heater, but If I'm going to spen $400 on a no frills Bradford, I'd rather spend an extra $250 on something that will make my house more desireable ot a potential buyer.
My 50 gallon gas heater does the same thing, the first run of water in the morning is cooler.Try running the faucet for 3 minutes or so and then wait ten minutes for the water heater to warm the new water and see if the shower will run as long as you want. It doesn't sound as if it's broken especially if you're moving soon.
Sounds like your supply house quoted full retail to you. My price for an 80 gal. electric Bradford White is $434.64, and my discount isn't as deep as most plumbers get. I put a 40 gal. gas HWH in my parents home 18 months ago for something less than $300.
Dave
Bill, sure hot water rises and one would think that as you say water could stratify. However, thermostats must be located near teh bottom of the tank . . right? It would be pretty stupid to locate it high in teh tank, just for the reason you mention. If it is low in the tank then the temperature of the water would be driven by teh coldest water in the tank and you would not have a stratified tank.
??
the thermostat is about 12 to 16 inches off the bottom of the tank. Even though it is that low, there can be a huge difference in temperature between the top and bottom of the tank.
I have a 40gal gas GE water heater and have the same problem. I got a simular answer from GE that Bill Hoover said. They also said that the very cold water in the NE doesn't help.
I take a shower at night after work and the same thing happens since it sits all day. What I do now is before dinner I run the tub for 2 minutes or so to get the WH to kick on. By time dinner is done it's about 45-60 min later and I have a real hot shower.
Headstrong, I'll take on anyone!
In addition to the stratification issue, keep in mind that the temp sensors/gas valves ae far from precision instruments: after the heating cycle, the temp will drop aways before it cycles on again and the tolerances for those cycles are pretty wide.
To determine the age: Bradford White uses a letter code in the serial number - it isn't perfectly sequential (e.g., no O, Q, R) but for a rough age, find the ANSI code date and figure 2-3 years after that date.
Note re water temps: the traditional concern has been with scald hazard when set too high (with 120-125 as the usual recommendation.)
There is a recent concern raised with legionella bacteria growing in water heaters kept under 140. The claims are that there are a lot of legionaires disease cases which aren't reported or aren't tied to temp.
So far,I'm skeptical, but it's early going.
The "new" recommendation is to keep the tank at 140 and use a tempering/mixing valve to bring it down to 120
With my mouth I will give great thanks to the Lord; I will praise Him in the midst of the throng. For He stands at the right hand of the needy, to save them from those who would condemn them to death.
- Psalms 109:30-31
this is frustrating. I never had this problem until I moved into this house. Atleast I never noticed it anwhere else. And ot find out that it's not a correctable problem is discouraging. I may try a new water heater to see if it helps, and just make sure I recover the cost when I sell the house. What recommendations does everyone have for a new HWH? Keep in mind I can't go much larger than 48" tall and 20" dia.
Put an insulation jacket on the WH and are the pipes insulated? It will help a little.
just a crazy thought but would installing a recirculation loop going back to the cold water feed help eliminate the stratification of the water?
Yes“A universal peace, it is to be feared, is in the catalogue of events, which will never exist but in the imaginations of visionary philosophers, or in the breasts of benevolent enthusiasts.” —James Madison
Have the same heater here and same age. Thermostat (aquastat) develops a non-responsive flat spot after remaining at the same temp setting for a couple years. When it does, I go down there and turn it up about 10 degrees. That resolves the problem although it makes the water a little hotter than desired. So after two weeks or so, I go turn it back down to where it was and all is well for another couple years or more. Am still running on the original thermostat.
Another option is what we now have to do on all "public" hot water systems.
By code we are not allowed to rely on the factory thermostat on the water heater for any domestic hot water system that might get used by the general public.
We install thermostatic mixing valves on the outlet of all public systems.
You can install a thermostatic mixing valve set at 120 to 125 degrees & then turn your water heater thermostat to a higher setting.
This accomplishes a couple of things.
1. It prevents scalding.
2. It provides more hot water volume.
“A universal peace, it is to be feared, is in the catalogue of events, which will never exist but in the imaginations of visionary philosophers, or in the breasts of benevolent enthusiasts.” —James Madison
I haven't priced one of those puppies in a few years, but IIRC the last one was well over the cost of a domestic HWH. Course it was a commercial office building.
What's a ball park figure for a residential model, say 3/4" supply both side and discharge?
Dave
ive seen the honeywell amx series go for about one hundred and change. real slick installation.
http://www.plumbersurplus.com/Prod/Kohler-K-13601-NA-Thermostatic-mixing-valve/47537/Cat/254
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill H gave a link for a Kohler, just over a hundred bucks.
I install ones for towers that run about 25K by leonard, but you can get small residential ones for a hundred & some change like others have posted.“A universal peace, it is to be feared, is in the catalogue of events, which will never exist but in the imaginations of visionary philosophers, or in the breasts of benevolent enthusiasts.” —James Madison
I have installed and rebuilt the 430 Hydroguard series made by MC Powers. 1 1/4" innies and outies. About $750- $800.
I guess I was having one of those "da" moments, it never crossed my mind to use one in a residential system.
Dave
I have a very similar situation and in fact started a thread here on breaktime to talk about it. My wife showers first, most mornings, she often complains about the shower being cool. I say often, because the shower is hot more frequently than not. When I shower all is well. At first I thought there was a correlation between when we had been away for a full day or two, in other words the tank sat undistrubed and unused for a lenghty time. I was thinking that prehaps teh termostate is buried in sediment and if no new water is introuduced into teh tank to mix things up the thermostat does not register a drop in temperature and thus teh burner does not light. Now there does not seem to be a rymth or reason as to when we have hot water in teh morning or not.
???? Good Luck. I have not fixed the problem and I hear about it once or twice a week from the wife.