Ok i’m wrap’n up alot of rough in details…
electric water heaters… for ease of future maint. and i think I’d be faster for my electrician… can I use a plug… and what type?
will a standard old type range or dryer receptical/pigtail pass code? reason for that question is because the old type 3 prongs are cheap on ebay…
can I do/use the same on my HVAC air handlers with electric heat… i have 6 units with split sysyems and 10kw of electric heat…
thanks in advance…. if i have a little information/facts on my side it’s eaiser to convince my electrician…
you have to remember I’m usually buy’n 20 – 40 of everything…
p
Replies
for ease of future maint. and i think I'd be faster for my electrician...
If you've got an electrician, why ask us? His job to know.
And as for maintainance...once a year test the t&p by pressing it. For that you don't even need to switch off at the breaker. Easy.
All the best...
To those who know - this may be obvious. To those who don't - I hope I've helped.
If you've got an electrician, why ask us? His job to know.
and your point is?
I deal with Lawyers way more than i like... I have found if i do the research, have facts & case law in hand then a simple NO from them is alot harder to come by...
with information and facts in hand they then have to think or do their own research ( my lawyer just accepts my research)
I hope that in your day to day life you don't accept as fact what one person who should know tells you on any front...
look at the big picture... small space waterheater/airhandler .... electrician installs an outlet before said fixture and he's done... after said fixture and space is tighter and he has to think....
I try to avoid anyone think'n more than they have to on my jobs it usually doesn't go well when they do... they seem to accept what one person repeated as fact... i'm sure you understand
p
What I'm trying to get at is your sparkie should know the elec codes relevant to your area. Admittedly the Q has never arisen (which means that I accept all I've been told) as to the option of a plug. But in any case I cannot see where any time would be saved. OK, maybe he has to come back to hardwire after the d/w is up - but who puts the plug on the wire? If it's you - and you're neither the HO nor sparkie - then there's liability and ins to consider. And doesn't his quote allow for finishing?All the best...
To those who know - this may be obvious. To those who don't - I hope I've helped.
Actually, the issue arose a few months back.Basically, there's little point in using a plug. It wouldn't significantly change the time required to swap the water heater out, etc. And some inspectors may not allow it.You'd have to get a plug suitable for the circuit ampacity -- most are 30A, I believe, so this would be a 30A dryer/range plug. But it should be 3-pin (old style), not 4-pin.[Actually, Bill's probably right about the 3-pin dryer/range plug not being the right one. It implies that the center pin may be used for a neutral connection, and that's not correct.]
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Edited 8/13/2006 2:10 pm by DanH
"will a standard old type range or dryer receptical/pigtail pass code? reason for that question is because the old type 3 prongs are cheap on ebay..."
The receptacles are not legal for what you are wanting to do. No EQUIPEMENT GROUND CONDUCTOR. The 3rd pin is a neutral.
What you want is a Nema 6-30. The dryers recpts are 10-30's
http://www.leviton.com/sections/techsupp/nema.htm
As to your basic question the concept was rasied here a while back, but I can find it. Maybe I was dreaming it.
I have not looked at this in detail, but I think that you can do it.
But I don't thing that you will save anything by doing it. While you can get pigtails with a 6-30 they are not common and don't even know if they would be stock at an electrical supplier.
So you would probably have to make them up.
And how often is a WH replaced. You still need to make the connections in the WH about the same with a cordset as with a whip of flex conduit.
"can I do/use the same on my HVAC air handlers with electric heat... i have 6 units with split sysyems and 10kw of electric heat..."
I am guessing so, but just a guess. You should post a separate question in the HVAC section.
Time to be wary of making assumptions.
The nameplate of the water heater will specify what voltage is used, and how many amps are needed.
A water heater needs a means to disconnect it; I know, it's often left out, but it ought to be there. The traditional way is to have the disconnect mounted on the wall next to (and not behind) the water heater, with the final bit of wire contained in "flex."
Can a cord and plug be used? This often comes up when the heater is a small one, using less than 20 amps of 120. Opinions are somewhat divided, because you really are not to use flexible cord as a substitute for 'permanent' wiring. Also, the pre-made cord sets are almost always of wire too small for the amperage.
Personally, I see nothing wrong with the idea... but the wire and plug need to be suitable for the voltage and amperage.. and be properly connected to the heater- strain relief is very important!
As another poster pointed out, the "usual" heater uses 30 amps of 240 v.... so you need four wires, at least #10 in size, and the appropriate plug and receptacle.
NOW- another 'loose end' to consider: Even if you never plan to have gas water heater, I'd consider having an ordinary 110 receptacle in the closet. This will be useful for either the igniter on a gas heater, or a circulating pump.
Only 3 wires including the ground needed on a water heater.
Only two hots and and equipment ground needed on a WH. Generally wired with 10-2/wg romex and the white wire wrapped with red or black tape on each end (at the breaker and the appliance.
Dave
Right, but only for 220V operation.
In our area, all new water heater installations involve a plug.
as i understand it for my air handling/heater units... they have to be in line of sight of the main panel or have a disconnect at the unit for service...
around here "code" has alot more to do with what inspector you have than whats in the book... the second thing that affects code is if an engineer stamps it as ok... it's ok... seems that gets it off the code peoples back...
3 wire as i understand it is all thats required for water heater and air handler/elect heat... stove & dryer need/required to have a neutral and a ground...
It use to be you'd add outlets...lights ect... as you saw the need, now with the cost of copper it's not as easy of a call... really isn't when you are building 20 units and every dimes comes out of my pocket... i could add 20-30k without blink'n an eye...
as always thanks for the input
p
3 wire as i understand it is all thats required for water heater and air handler/elect heat... stove & dryer need/required to have a neutral and a ground
All true except the AHU, which you indicated has electric heat. The fan motors are ussually 120v, so you need the neutral and the ground.
A plug is an acceptable disconnect means, but check with you local inspector. Generally a toggle switch is all that is used for the 120v fan motor on gas appliances and a small breaker box or knife disconnect on electric heat pumps with resistance coils. Both are mounted to the AHU at or near the point where they are made up inside the cabinet. The wire from the disconect going back to the service panel should be protected untill it reaches the ceiling or wall either wby running it in conduit or armored cable that is scured to a framing member.
There are limits on how far and what type of cord can be used for any appliance, with shorter always being better. The reason AHUs are hard wired is vibration, and the afore mentioned cord length. Without digging out the code book IRIC you are limited to no more than 6', but it could be as short a 4'.
As a maint. tech. I prefer the breaker, knife switch, or fussed disconect. I can turn the unit off/on more conveniently than fumbling with a plug and cord when trouble shooting a misbehaving unit. I have breaker and switch lockout devices in my tool box. I also have a pug cap/lockout, but who knows if it will fit your particular plug? Now I have to go the breaker panel to lock out the appliance if I need to break for lunch, make a head call, or run after parts. Big PITA for me, but I can't take the chance of someone energizing the unit while I am away.
Dave
the AHU i have came with an optional disconnect built into the unit... I don't know if it standard practice or code... but here if you can see the main panel from where the AHU is located a disconnect is not required at the unit...
input from a service person means alot... and i thank you
I could have saved a little money with goodman equipment (which has never let me down) but as a package deal for the whole project Bryant/Coleman had more of what the engineer spec'd and cost wise they were in the ball park... plus installing their AHU's you had more options as far as placement drain location service side ect...
I only have about 8-9 split units the rest are package units so none of it is a make or break situation... with copper line set prices like they are it sure makes package units look good
p
Edited 8/13/2006 11:25 pm ET by ponytl
I would guess that, 90% of the time, you're all correct...two hots and a ground, of the correct size...BUT... We don't know the unit he's installing. For all we know, it may be an "instant" heater, with a lower voltage control circuit. Or, it may be 120 v, with a hot, neutral, and ground. That's why I referenced the nameplate.
I have seen the tiny 120v units plugged in on lakeside cottages.
I have installed at least four of those in the past couple of years. They must be plugged into a GFCI receptical.
That may be the show stopper for a 240v WH.
Dave
I know that in our area (Chicago suburbs), you must hard-wire electric water heaters. The last time I asked a building inspector this question, he gave me a dirty look and said "what do you think?"