In our service area the public water company sent out letters to a wide area explaining that they are increasing the water pressure. The letter states to homeowners that some homes may require a pressure reducing valve to be installed ahead of the water meter and that the valve costs about $30 to $60.
I do a good bit of plumbing work for a lot of customers in the affected areas. I’m getting calls asking if they should be concerned and/or should they get the reducing valve. Since I’ve never lived in an area where there was an increase I have to be honest with them and tell them I’m not sure how affected they may be.
In areas where pressure is increased are there usually common items that begin to fail, like a water heater, or sink faucets, or toilet fill valves and such? I’d like to be able to better explain what the likely chances are that my customers that called may be affected.
Replies
The code limit is 80 psi.
However, I have PROOF that water pipes don't blow up at 120 psi.
I do suspect that I have to replace the seals in the Delta single handled facuets a little more often, but not sure.
But my last WH last 18 years.
If you do install PRV's remember that you also need to install an expansion tank.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
YOu mean an expansion tank on the WH only, right? No where else.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
It's my understanding that anything installed ahead of the water meter belongs to the city and is their problem.
On the home owner's side it's common practice to install pressure regulators to reduce pressure. Regulators protect the plumbing, the fixtures and the people using them.
Edit: FWIW...I installed my sprinkler system off the water main from a point before the regulator. I wanted the full street pressure, about 120psi, in order to run the system more efficiently. I used schedule 40 PVC on the pressure side of the control valves, as well as on all the runs. No problems.
Edited 10/18/2008 9:50 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
It is only common if the pressure is too high.And a lot of that depends on the terrain..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
It is only common if the pressure is too high.
The City of Los Angeles has been running their water pressure at about 120psi for as long as I can remember. That's over fifty years. Every home and business here has a regulator on it.
I suppose that the reason for that is to keep water available at steady pressure under heavy use.
I grew up in L.A. and we had pretty high pressure in some places. The last place we lived in LA was on a steep hillside street. Our street pressure was about 240 as I remember.
We were about 3/4s of the way up the street. I figured the reason we had such high pressure was that in order to get pressure up to the highest house on the street we would have higher pressure. Just think of the stack affect if you street main went up another 700-1000 feet!
Another thing is they usually have to fight fires at the top of these streets. We were surrounded by highly volitile sage brush or chaparral. I would want as much pressure as I could get if I was defending a house up there.
It makes sense to me. If you live in an area with hills and municipal water they need to get the water up the hill through the same pipe you have near the bottom.
In all my years in LA I don't remember seeing an expansion tank. Maybe the standard for home water supply systems has gone up or there are more sensitive appliances in the home since I was in LA. The first expansion tank I had in our house was in Kansas because we were on a well.
One of the water system that I did controls for was in TN.At the bottom of Lookout Mtn the pressure was around 1000 psi and stainless steel pipes where used.Most water pressure is from gravity flow from elevated tanks.Although they can use staged continuous running pumps. That is more common in far north areas where there is problem with water freezing in the tanks.And what your elevation is with respect to the elevated tanks determines the pressure. In areas where there are large differences in pressure the utility company sometimes uses large pressure regulators to reduce the pressure for local distribution..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Another thing is they usually have to fight fires at the top of these streets. We were surrounded by highly volitile sage brush or chaparral. I would want as much pressure as I could get if I was defending a house up there.
This house is in a tract about one mile from the foot of the Santa Monica Mountains National Park, a huge wildlife refuge and wilderness area between the San Fernando Valley and the Pacific Ocean.
Although there have been fires in that park, fortunately none of them has threatened any of the homes here. But after watching local TV coverage of raging brush fires and homeowners trying to protect their property with garden hoses, I decided to give myself a fighting chance to stop any fire that starts from flying embers, a significant threat during wind driven brush fires.
When I installed the new sprinkler system I added two hose bibs off the 3/4" unregulated lateral leading to the back yard. Now, using a 3/4" hose and fireman's type nozzle I'm able to throw about fifteen gpm to a range of about sixty feet...as opposed to the usual four-five gpm to about twenty feet from regulated pressure on a 1/2" line and hose.
If I owned a home adjacent to one of those brush covered hillsides, I'd have my own 2" firehose rolled up in the garage. Enough of it to reach the nearest hydrant with a nozzle and a wrench. I'm sure it's illegal but so what.
Edited 10/18/2008 6:39 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
We had a house almost go up in smoke when I was a kid. My dad stayed with the house and put out a corner that had started to burn. He saved the house with a garden hose on the roof.
We figured the main thing that saved the house was my sister left the sprinklers on over night a couple of days before the fire. She got balled out at the time for leaving them on and wasting water.
The problem with using water from the municipal system when there is a fire nearby is that the fire fighters use all the water. They will put a pumper truck on the hydrant and suck the whole area dry.
You will get just a trickle if that out of your hose. They take it all.
The only way to really fight brush fire independently is to have a pool of water and a good pump. But setting up for that is costly and most people just don't bother.
You can water heavily before the fire gets to you neighborhood. Or just eliminate all the stuff that can catch fire. I talked to fire inspectors that basically wanted us to remove anything around our house that would catch fire for 100 feet or more. I didn't want to live that way. I lived in the hills so I could be closer to nature. Not cut it all down. So we took our chances.
Edited 10/18/2008 5:31 pm ET by popawheelie
I've seen those Honda pumps at the local motorcycle dealer in Woodland Hills, just west of Topanga Canyon. According to the sales manager they sell pretty well to people who live further out in the hills and have to depend on LA County tankers, FD helicopters or their own pools for water to fight fires.
We had several brush fires in the hills last week during two days of Santa Ana winds. The fire departments have gotten very good at coordinating and protecting homes adjacent to hills. And the TV news helicopters have gotten very good at covering the entire event.
The newer water dropping helicopters have larger capacity tanks and more powerful jet engines than previous models so, with skilled pilots making drops, they're very effective at stopping fast moving fires when they threaten homes.
It all makes for high drama, live in HDTV.
Edited 10/18/2008 7:09 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I've gotten dumped on by a water dropping helicopter. Fighting a little fire. My first experience with brush fires in L.A. was fifty years ago. I saw the fires from my school and they wouldn't let my go home. My dad was up there saving our home.
Not trying to one up you. My wife (mid western ) and I moved out of there a while ago because of the fires, riots, earthquakes. I miss the ocean and the hills but that's about it.
To many people for my taste.
Around Denver its about 110psi. Had a client with a 1900 house and a 3rd floor apt. Little water to shower. Big diff between pressure and volumne. Newer houses have 1 1/2-2" incoming from main in street.
Mine was built in 1968 with 3/4". Had a brush fire West of Denver early summer and TV showed police (my old department) threatening homeower with arrest because he had a garden hose and was trying to wet down his property. Couldn't believe it. Looked up Colorado's so called "mandatory evacuation" law. Found some opinion by the AG but the court of appeals said "not mandatory". So I emailed the info to the Police Chief and the TV stations. Reporting seems to have changed but if the FD sucks the water dry.....? Tyr
Maybe they should build the water tower at the top of the hills.
In the mountains of So Cal they do use water tanks at the top. But only where there isn't a resevoir.
We swam in the tanks after a day at the beach when I was a teen.
True. There's a resevior in the hills above this area of the SF Valley. Been there for more than sixty years. And a fair sized tank above. Fire Company up there too. Good planning.
Edited 10/19/2008 1:04 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
What is the pressure, and what will it increase to?
Generally, 50-60psi is optimal, anything over 75 should be regulated. Most appliances should be able to handle up to 100psi when in good condition.
Toilet floats may need adjusting (water level too high in tank), old water heaters may blow (though they would have blown soon anyway). Really old pipe may blow out, but that was gonna happen anyway too.
According to the letter it's increasing to 100PSI or more.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
Then regulators are needed. And, as mentioned, any time a regulator is installed an expansion tank is needed.
Corporation: n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. --Ambrose Bierce
And, as mentioned, any time a regulator is installed an expansion tank is needed.
I've never heard of or seen any expansion tanks on houses here, all of which have regulators.
I have never heard that either.
Interesting side. Our church is on city water that gets up pretty high when there is no demand. It has a regulator but evidently has a little leak-by pressure buildup when not in use. When you hit the water fountain the first bit launches about four feet and then settles down quickly and the regulator handles demand quite well. I guess I will have to see if I can take it apart and see if it can be repaired. Will be a pain to replace as they did not use unions to install. For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
If you can't repair it just put a sign near the fountain saying: Baptismal fountain, be prepared to receive His blessing.
Water fountains have a pressure regulator in them. I repaired one at a school my kids were in. The diaphragm failed so I made one out of some material I had around.
Edited 10/18/2008 11:46 am ET by popawheelie
Edited 10/18/2008 11:47 am ET by popawheelie
Water fountains have a pressure regulator in them. I repaired one at a school my kids were in. The diaphragm failed so I made one out of some material I had around.
Old inner tube, right? ;-)
I cut the circle off the cuff of a vinyl rubber glove. It was tuff and flexible. Who knows if it lasted. We pulled the kids out of that school and moved to another state.
You need an expansion tank. The cold water in the pipes expands as it sits in the pipes and warms up, causing the increase in pressure. And if there's a water heater on the line the heating of the water there causes an even more significant increase in pressure.Like I said, just because an expansion tank isn't there doesn't mean it isn't needed.
Corporation: n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. --Ambrose Bierce
I didn't mean to infer that expansion tanks weren't needed in good water supply system. I think a lot of homes don't have a very good water supply system. They work, but just not very well.
I do not think that this is a case of the water heater causing the back pressure. It does not seem to take long to build up. I thought that buildup caused by the water heater will not build up too quick after pressure is let off. But certainly worth checking out. The church has a pretty high end heater with the heat traps and flow gadgets.For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
Substantial pressure build-up from expansion is unlikely in less than 5 minutes, but likely in 15-30 minutes.But I recall now that I've seen water fountains that behaved as described even when not in a situation where water pressure could build up in the pipe. I suspect the pressure regulator inside the fountain sticks.
Corporation: n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. --Ambrose Bierce
Edited 10/18/2008 9:47 pm by DanH
This is a pretty old water cooler. My BIL said he had one I could put in to replace it. The more I think about it sounds like a sticking internal regulator because it acts kind of weird. I changed out the bubbler and while trying to adjust the stream sometimes it does absolutely nothing. I had cranked the supply stop pretty much closed. I could have the reach of the stream right where I wanted it and release the button and push it again and nothing comes out.
Thanks to all for the input and sorry for minor hijack although related to post.For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
The pressure buildup could be from the water heater. A check valve prevents water from flowing back into the main. This is nwhat happened to me. Hot water expands and has to go somewhere.
Just because they're needed doesn't mean they're installed.
Corporation: n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. --Ambrose Bierce
beside installing a expansion tank i would suggest they install air hammers on the refer , washer , dishwasher if or if not a prv is installed ,except if the pipeing is pex