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Discussion Forum

water seeping thru bath tile grout

| Posted in General Discussion on March 3, 2004 09:07am

Hi

Just had a new shower installed last fall, custom tile wall/floor. At the time the installer said he put grout sealer on, and recommended I re-apply sealer in a few months. So, I dried out the shower in prep to do so, but a few of the grout lines just stayed wet — then I realized that water was actually seeping up from underneath!

These are the grout lines along the bottom edge of the tile, where the wall meets the floor, from one corner extending out about 1 foot.

The shower floor does slope nicely toward the drain, but the edge where the water is seeping up is not at the “low” end of the shower.

The grout in this area does not look smooth and solid, it is a little rough and cracked.

After 3 days of leaving the shower dry, with a fan on it, the grout line is finally dry.

I talked to my installer who said he put in a rubber liner that extends up the walls about 2 feet, and so any water should drain into the drain.

So the question is this: Is the solution to simply reapply grout and then sealer? Or do I have a bigger problem than that?

Thanks

C Smith

Reply

Replies

  1. DanH | Mar 03, 2004 09:29pm | #1

    Grout isn't waterproof, even when sealed. Likely the moisture you're seeing is seeping down through the walls.

  2. suntoad | Mar 03, 2004 09:30pm | #2

    First of all, there shouldn't be a "grout line" where the wall tile meets the floor tile. It should be a good polyurethane or silicone caulk. Probably your main source of water infiltration is there.

    Second, having a shower pan liner beneath the mortar bed does not guarantee any water therein will actually make it down the drain..The weep holes at the flange may have been clogged (a common error in hack tile jobs). Hence, the mortar bed beneath your floor tile is likely saturated with water, becoming a breeding ground for molds and bacteria. It will soon smell like it too. Caulking it now will probably only make things worse.

    Should have used Kerdi.

    1. rez | Mar 03, 2004 09:59pm | #3

      Go ahead, keep it up. Just about when I finally find the balls to think about attempting one on my own instead of buying a molded pan I hear this stuff.  :o) 

    2. User avater
      dieselpig | Mar 03, 2004 10:45pm | #4

      Suntoad,

         Can you really tell all that from this guy's post?   That his installer is a hack?  That his bathroom is gonna smell like a landfill in a week?   That his shower pan is full of mold and bacteria?  Or even that his installer DIDN'T use Kerdi?  Why scare the crap out of the guy possibly for no reason?

          He's probably ripping his installer a new one on the phone right now based on your "thousand mile away" diagnosis.  Would you appreciate if someone was trashing your work without even seeing it?  How about if you got that phone call that went something like this..."well the guy on the internet said that cuz you didn't use Kerdi you must be a hack and he also said that my bathroom is full of mold and bacteria"

      Be part of the solution, not the problem.

      1. User avater
        EricPaulson | Mar 04, 2004 12:33am | #5

        Well said DP.

        My guess at a worse case would be that there is no preslope under the shower pan and or the pan may not be draining due to closed up weep holes.

        No preslope is NOT uncommon, in fact (go ahead shoot me) I would say that more often than not you will NOT find preslope under most membranes.

        I would guess that if it dried up in three days after how many months of use that no big problem exists.

        Mold, bacteria??????? It's all around us and we'd all be dead with out it, stop whining and learn to live with it.

        Eric

        This is my 1000 mile guess.

    3. User avater
      JeffBuck | Mar 04, 2004 03:02am | #6

      so no-slope kerdi instead of a no slope pvc pan is better?

      What .. makes for a better swimming pool?

      I'm not even convinced there's a real problem here ....

      Could be ... but no one's gonna know just how much water is sitting there till someone decided to rip it up.

      I tear out lotsa 40 .. 50 year old lead pans ... flat bottoms ... holding gallons of water under the crumbling mortar bed ...

      but like the original installer would probably say .... that's why that lead pan was in there .. to hold all the water.

      Current installation mathods are definitely better ...

      but not many 50 to 100 to 150 year old homes fall down around here on a daily basis.

      JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

           Artistry in Carpentry                

  3. sungod | Mar 04, 2004 03:40am | #7

    Go to the supply house and see what a real shower drain looks like and have someone show you what the weep holes look like.

    Then take the grill off the drain and shine a light down it to see if you see the same thing.  You may find the wrong drain or you may need to drill out the weep holes

    1. Scooter1 | Mar 04, 2004 04:24am | #8

      If there is moisture creeping up from the setting bed, then that setting is wet, right?

      If the setting bed is wet, then water is not draining on top of the membrane like it should.

      Two possible causes for this: (1) Clogged Weep Holes; or (2) No pre-slope.

      If the weep holes were clogged, the moisture would be on the low end of the shower, therefore I assume the weep holes are fine.

      That leaves no pre-slope, and I am now assuming that moisture from the walls is pooling at the perimeter of the shower and because there is no preslope, is standing around on top of the membrane in the affected area.

      Regards,

      Boris

      "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

      1. suntoad | Mar 04, 2004 08:35am | #9

        Sigh.

        Pig: My “thousand mile diagnosis” is actually more like two thousand. Regardless, whether or not the installer is a hack was not my main point…excuse me for causing an arse-ripping, but, for grouting the wall/floor transition instead of caulking it, the installer is either 1.) grossly negligent, 2.) grossly slothful, or 3.) incompetent. I’ve no idea which. I only offer possibilities.

        I concede the point that the fungi issue really is no big deal. I was using it to illustrate my point. Which is: Kerdi IS better than a shower pan UNDER the mortar bed. The difference is obvious, and I won’t belabor the point to knowledgeable professionals. But, yes Jeff, “no-slope kerdi instead of a no slope pvc pan” IS better.

        Moreover, an installer who “grouts” the edges of a built-up shower floor DESERVES a call-back.

        Nuff said.

        1. smith2423 | Mar 04, 2004 07:14pm | #10

          Thanks for all your thoughts!

          Now for the "plan" of what I say, and ask to have done?

          Seems like the logical thought is that

          1. there may be no preslope

          2. the installer may not have used caulk as is recommended.

          So,

          Do I ask him to rip up the floor and put in a preslope, re-do the tile?

          Do I let him convince me that yes, indeed, he did put in a preslope (I expect denial of a problem, but who knows...) and if it dries out after 3 days, must not be a problem, thus caulking will work?

          If I do that, then will that solve the problem, or make it worse, which depends on where the water is coming from:

          If it is just seeping in from the place it's seeping out of, then caulking those lines would work?

          If it is seeping in from above, then caulking those lines would just hold the water in underneath.

          Question:

          Is it normal for water to enter good sealed grout from all along the walls? I cannot see anywhere that water could *enter* from above. The walls are tiled from floor to ceiling, with good solid grout lines between all of them.

          1. AngeloD3 | Mar 04, 2004 07:52pm | #11

            Hi, Just finished fixing a similar problem last Dec.. Water was seeping out of tile grout lines in a number of places. The floor had a suitable slope and the flat areas of tile (glass stall enclosure joined garden tub) also had water seeping out. the house is about 15 years old and the new owners (1 1/2 years) did not have this problem before. as it turned out, the problem was the removal of the rubber seal around the glass enclosure inside of the stall. Water seeped into the channels from showering and went down into the substrate through the screw holes inside the alum. channel.

            Apparently the previous owner had a deteriorated seal and just remove it so the home inspector would not notice and have it replaced.

            If you had a new enclosure installed, insure it is caulked correctly on the inside and the seal around the glass is in-place. Heed all of the advice you have been given, good luck.

            Benny

          2. Scooter1 | Mar 04, 2004 09:20pm | #12

            I would ask your installer if he installed a preslope. If he says yes, then he should be able to explain why water is pooling on sloped membrane. Makes no sense to me.

            If you rip it out to prove him wrong, ya'all better be sure, because you are betting that it is not sloped. I think that is a safe bet.

            A no slope Kerdi bed is better than a no slope pvc bed--at least you can see the pooling on the Kerdi bed. But Kerdi showers are not inherently any better than the traditional pvc membrane shower. One must use their proprietory drain, which s u c k s in my opinion, one must apply the Kerdi membrane all the way up the walls to the ceiling, wherever there is tile, which is outrageously expensive, and Kerdi is not Code for most cities. That being said Kerdi is a fine product and has good concept of putting the membrane where it ought to be--closer to the setting bed, rather than underneath the setting bed. Its main benefit for me are for walk in shower applications, where the entire floor become a shower membrane.

            Mr. Smith, I would call your tile contractor on this. I would gently ask him if the membrane was installed directly to the plywood subfloor. If he is as stupid as I think he is, he won't recognize that the question is a trap. When he says yes, pull out the specifications of the Tile Council of America and tell him you want it re-done. If he refuses, rip it out and have re-done--this time properly--and bill him for the cost.

            Regards,

            Boris

            "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

          3. User avater
            EricPaulson | Mar 05, 2004 12:05am | #13

            Go ahead and throw hammers and what have you at me but........I've been doing tile work (among other things) for about 25 years. I can count on one finger the number of shower bases that I have pulled up to find preslope and it was done with wood shingles. I have never done a preslope and infact was unaware of it until the recent article in FHB. duck......

            Only a handful of the many lead pans I have pulled up leaked and those were probably close to fifty years old.

            I have my plumber use pvc membrane and he has never mentioned preslope either. I use a very well packed mud base. Often if I have time I will skim coat it with thinset prior to setting tile. I beleive that this may enhance it's ability to not absorb water. I always grout the floor prior to setting any wall tile on cement board held up a bit from the mud and pay attention to packing the space between the walls and tile very well with grout.

            I have never seen a caulk job not go bad especially at this intersection of wall and base.

            Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to sound like a know it all expert. I am bringing this to attention to further this discussion. I haven't had any of my jobs go bad and some of the older ones were in asphalt coated lead.

            I was taught early on about the importance of the membrane being able to drain and based on what other people are saying, it is important, so why goad this homeowner into busting on his contractor because MAYBE the tile and mud base has allowed water to seep through to the membrane?? Isn't that what it is for?

            On one hand he is being told that it (base) shouldn't leak , and on the other he is being told about the importance of weepholes. I would say you can't have it both ways. If your floor or ceiling is dry beneath the pan than we don't have an issue. Call me if you see water thank you good bye.

            I should go back to the article, but won't the membrane bucle because of the preslope?? ie it is not laying flat?

            Eric

          4. Scooter1 | Mar 05, 2004 02:29am | #14

            Good post.

            Here come the hammers.

            A Plumber makes a drain. Plumbers must make the drain pitch, correct? It would be negligence for a waste drain to be flat, right?

            Plumber makes a shower pan which has to drain. But the plumber doesn't make it pitch? I don't get it.

            Why is a pitch required for a drain, but not a shower pan. Help me out here. Maybe you can 'splain that to me.

            The tepid soapy water sits on a membrane unable to drain through the weep holes. Why is this a good thing? This a receipe for a mold magnet.

            Regards,

            Boris

            "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

          5. User avater
            JeffBuck | Mar 05, 2004 02:39am | #16

            I have to fight with my plumber each and every time I make him lay pvc over the preslope ...

            I keep telling him when we do his house ... we'll do it the easy way ...

            He insists I'm the only tile guy/GC that makes him do it the "right way" ... he still doesn't believe me it's necessary ...

            I also tell him to let all those other customers he knows a guy that'll come in and do it "the right way".

            Someday he'll see the light.

            JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

                 Artistry in Carpentry                

          6. User avater
            EricPaulson | Mar 05, 2004 04:02am | #19

            Jeff,

            Preslope is actuall spec'd in the TCA hand book? That's interesting.

            Why does your plumber give you a hard time about installing the membrane over preslope? How close does you process follow that of the article in FHB.

            You and Boris are both suggesting that most shower pans do not include preslope. Yet, if that were true and the lack of preslope was so detrimental to the longevity of the shower, the two of you could literally start a franchise to correct all the 'bad' shower pans out there.

            I don't care how much the bed leaks (theoretically) it aint never getting past the pvc in a hundred years.

            I know I'm being a jerk but you guys are not throwing a convincing argument in favor of doing preslope other than the suggestion of some mold.

            Please be so kind as to adress my inquiries and the ones I posed to Boris.

            I will try this next time I do a bed, but you guys ain't winning the case in my book.

            Eric

          7. User avater
            JeffBuck | Mar 05, 2004 06:24am | #24

            plumber bitches about setting his drain assembly in mud ... something about tapping that little bit that's in his way out that bothers him ...

            I don't know which article you're refering ... but I've probably read it.

            over the ply ... I felt .... preslope ... pvc/drain/gravel around weepholes .... then mesh .. which I use to help form the curb ... holds the pvc w/o nails ... the second layer of mud ... second layer is sloped .. but all the same thickness ....

            The backer walls ar held up about 6 or 8 inches .. sometime I install the walls .. sometimes they're held up and waiting for my floor ...

            The preslope is run level around the base ....

            The pvc is run up the walls and folded in the corners ... no fasteners or holes below about 6 inches ....

            The mesh is bent and run up the walls .... helps to form the corners ...

            The second layer of mud is run up tha walls ...

            I make a little .. 6 to 8" ... swimming pool .... the wall mud is troweled out to the same thickness as the wall cbu ... and I use the square edge of the trowel to make for a nice square joint ....

            The curb/mesh get's packed tight and built up with mud ....

            all the way around ... up ..over ... down.

            the curb top slopes about an 8th of an inch in ... usually.

            the walls have either felt or poly behind the backer ...

            that felt or poly is run down and overlaps the pvc pan liner by a coupla inches ... 2 or 3 .. I make my overlaps as if I was doing exterior flashing ....

            I'm not here to sell ya on anything ....

            TCA recommendations ... just following the most recent logic.

            Makes sense to me too ... that's the biggest part for me.

            If I've left anything obvious out ... just the allergy medicine talking.

            Jeff

            Buck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

                 Artistry in Carpentry                

          8. FastEddie1 | Mar 05, 2004 07:12am | #25

            Regardless of the pre-slope isue, and the non-caulked joints, I wonder if the source of water might be a leaking valve body, or an un-caulked escutcheon plate?  If he let it sit unused for three days, that woiuld have allowed the water to drain down from inside the wall, then the next time the water flows, some leaks out of the loose fitting or works its way behind the escutcheon, and the back of the tile gets wet again.

            Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!"  Then get busy and find out how to do it.  T. Roosevelt

            The craftsman formerly known as elCid

          9. suntoad | Mar 05, 2004 08:04am | #26

            Good post(s) Boris.. But, how come when I post like that, I get a "lose the attitude" response from Jeff?

            As for the source of the leak--why are we ignoring the obvious? The wall/floor transition was GROUTED.. AND, the grout has, as expected, failed. The water infiltration is occuring at the GAPING CRACKS around the perimeter of the floor. Cheez, every time they take a shower, the water is just pouring in under the floor...carrying with it the oils, fats and dead skin, and all of the flora and fauna associated with dirty human beings...to feed the fungi at the Little Shop of Horrors under the shower floor. Which probably was not presloped, and which undoubtedly has no exit strategy for the filthy water laying on the pan...Hence the water has saturated the bed and is now seeping out at the TOP surface from the open fault lines once grouted by an installer who deserves a call-back.

          10. User avater
            jonblakemore | Mar 05, 2004 09:46am | #27

            Jeff,

            Next time you do a shower, would mind taking some pics? 

            Jon Blakemore

          11. Buglehead | Mar 05, 2004 12:07pm | #28

            Here is a thought about the mold problem and those old flat metal pans.  Lead and copper are both toxic heavy metals.  (Asphalt is full of carcinogens, so the mechanism may hold for hot-mopped pans also.)  Maybe that is why the old shower pans without any preslope have not gotten all smelly.  What I am suggesting is that the, say, copper compounds from the corroding pan are acting like a preservative to keep the biological activity low in the wet setting bed.  This is just a theory.

            Now, contrast that with a CPE or PVC modern pan, done without any preslope.  No toxins to discourage molds/bacteria.  Whaddya think?

            Bugle

            P.S.  Preslope was code in early 80's Colorado when I built a CPE pan for the shower base in my own house.  Also the flood test, but inspector told me most guys didn't do it, and he didn't make them, either.  Declining standards in action!

          12. User avater
            EricPaulson | Mar 05, 2004 03:54am | #18

            ........duck...hey.....whao......easy!

            A Plumber makes a drain. Plumbers must make the drain pitch, correct? It would be negligence for a waste drain to be flat, right?

            I can not disagree with that.

            Why is a pitch required for a drain, but not a shower pan. Help me out here. Maybe you can 'splain that to me.

            Because that is why we pitch the mortar bed, to handle the bulk of the water and direct it down the drain??

            The tepid soapy water sits on a membrane unable to drain through the weep holes. Why is this a good thing? This a receipe for a mold magnet.

            Here we go again with the dreadful mold..eeeeeecchhhhh. Why wont it drain trhough the weep holes?

            There exists here a diachotomy (sp). We need a membrane to catch the water that's not supposed to seep through the tile, grout and mortar bed and oh, by the way, lets put extra holes in the drain assembly to get the water out of the membrane.

            Boris, based on posts of yours that I have read I have the utmost respect for you and your work. You are obviously a notch above what I do, as I do not do tile and stone as a full time occupation only as needed in the realm of the projects I take on be it bathrooms, kitchens or what have you.

            I have to argue the system though and at least the suggestions made to the HO about his tile guy. He may well have done a very good job that may outlast the dwelling it is in and people are suggesting to rip his contractor and the job because he MIGHT get some fungus UNDER? the mortar bed????? come on now, that's just plain silly.

            I am really interested in an answer to my question about the membrane not lying flat because of the preslope. Also, how close is the preslope process you do to the process outlined in FHB. How much more time does it take you to accomplish this over just laying the membrane flat and if it does take more time how do you justify the added cost (in addittion to the time it takes to explain to the ho that your way is the right way) in a competetive enviroment.

            I hope you don't think that I am being an a z z hole here I just want to rectify this in my own mind.

          13. Scooter1 | Mar 05, 2004 04:31am | #20

            No buddy, you are not an a s s h o l e , just curious, and thats fine with me.

            The water sitting on a flat membrane won't drain to the weep holes, right? I mean it can't, its fricking flat, right? I mean dump a gallon of water your countertop, will it all flow into the sink? Of course not. So hopefully we can agree that a signficant amount of water will be sitting on this stupid membrane, OK? Please say yes, or I will think you are stupid or are

            an a s s h o l e.

            You are correct that 100% of all copper and lead pans are built in a flat environment. That is just the way they do things out East. Yes, you are correct that most of the time, nothing ever bad happens. I can't figure out why not, but you are correct.

            But I do know that water darkness, and soap will be an excellent recipe for mold. They need water and a food source. I also know that if you keep the grout continually wet, mold will appear first on the grout lines. I won't debate with you whether mold is good thing or not; I like it on cheese. I don't like it in showers.

            The preslope process adds a full half day to the construction.

            I tack in a screed strip around the perimeter, like a 1x1, using a laser level or a water level. I strike a line at about 3 feet then measure down from there, or take some straigh edges and place them on the top of the bottom flange of the drain and strike a level line at that point. One is supposed to use a quarter inch per foot JUST LIKE THE PLUMBERS WOULD DO FOR WASTE LINES (is this starting to sink in yet?). I goose the preslope even more, and go for three eights. I want that moisture to really move out and down that membrane, OK? No standing water on my membranes, OK? I then set that screed strip at that slope. This whole process takes about an hour.

            A moisture barrier (felt or poly) is put down (I use Aquabar 500 AND roofing cement to bullet proof it); then 3.5 pound diamond lathe. Most guys use 1.5 or 2.5 lathe. This takes about 30 minutes.

            I then take one bag of Dry Pack Deck Mud and mix it up with plain water very dry. Using a straight edge or a simple 1x, I strike off the elevation of mud and pack it down, really tight, really slapping that baby with a wooden float. If necessary, I smooth out the rough edges with a steel float. This takes about and hour.

            The next day I patch any dips and knock off any mountains with Custom's QuickFix and lay the membrane. I usually try to file out the weep holes so they are a tad larger than manufactured. I really want that water to go out and down the drain, buddy.

            Before I add my final deck mud setting bed, I might also add a drainage mat, called Troba, which is a waffle shaped mat which elevates the setting bed about a quarter inch, and helps the setting bed drain moisture onto my now very steep and slick membrane, and out those enlarged holes and down the drain.

            You are probably starting to get the picture--you really don't want any moisture in the setting bed--it does absolutely no good, and can be downright unhealthy. You see, grout is not waterproof, and indeed will pass most water right through it into the setting bed. While sealing helps, it is not 100%, is expensive, and is rarely done enough, and when done, the homeowner uses ####s h i t t y cheap sealer.

            That moisture that goes through the grout will end up in the setting bed. You've seen wet concrete right? I mean it really stays wet, and a daily shower will keep it wet. And if there is no drainage mat, and no pitched membrane, and/or the weep holes are clogged, well, then we have mold and mildew.

            The homeowner can not be trusted to seal or dry out the shower. If he gets mold, I get a call back; even if I fix it, I've probably lost a customer and referral. I don't want any callbacks, I want a shower that will last for 20 years and I want endless referrals for a good job. It has to be bullet proof.

            If you think this is anal, you oughta see what I do to walls and the wall floor joint. But that is another story..........

            Hope this helps you understand. Oh, and finally, the Tile Council of America, the trade group for all tile manufacturers says the membrane must be sloped. This is not the law, but is a standard of care. Oh, and finally, at least in my town, a sloped membrane is Code. I can't put one in on a flat subfloor. The inspector won't clear it.

            If the above doesn't convince you "in your book", and the TCA and LA Code doesn't work, then I have nothing more to add.

            Now, like Dr. Laura says "go do the right thing."

            Regards,

            Boris

            "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

            Edited 3/4/2004 8:37:32 PM ET by Boris Yeltsin

          14. User avater
            EricPaulson | Mar 05, 2004 05:30am | #21

            Thanks Boris,

            That was very generous of you. You use alot of products that are not readily if at all available where I am even at a tile supply house.

            You also mentioned us in the 'east' that the jobs don't go bad. I think that this is one of those situations where a skill has been lost and there is no one left to passit down. Perhaps it is time for me to pick it up and hopefully passit down to some lucky person.

            It would be difficult for me to justify the addittional cost for this operation in a competetive situation. I am guessing it would add aroound $3-500 to a shower.

            Just so you know, I do good work, even with out the pre slope I've never had a call back for the 50 or so shower bases I've done in the last 25 years or so.

            Thanks agin for your time Boris. Your quote is cool.

            Sixty!!?? I just tuned 46 today!! Hows those knees holding out??

            Eric

          15. Scooter1 | Mar 05, 2004 05:46am | #22

            The cost of adding a preslope is about $10. $5 for the mortar; $2 for the lathe; and a couple bucks for the poly or felt and roofing cement.

            And like I say, it takes a half a day or less. While the preslope is curing, I can go ahead and layout my membrane, and prefold it. Or I do the preslope in the afternoon, and do layout and snapping lines in the morning so there is no wasted time.

            Knees? I don't have any. ACL went back in 1987. Knee pads bind, so I use double carpet scraps and pillows at this point.

            Do you have a building inspection department where you are at? Or are you in the sticks? Jeez, like I said, here in LA, I couldn't get a shower approved without a preslope. It is Code here.

            Do they inspect your showers ever, like even a flood test? Tell me you do a flood test, right? We have to do one and the pan has to hold water without leaking for 24 hours. The inspector comes out one day and then the next to check it out. Sometimes they get lazy, but the flood test makes sense to me.

            Regards,

            Boris

            "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

          16. User avater
            EricPaulson | Mar 05, 2004 03:25pm | #29

            I'm about an hour north of NYC. If it's new it would be part of the waste line test. If it a no permit job, yes we (me?plumber) fill li and leave ot over night. No PS requires in any of our codes that I know of.

            Thanks again,

            Eric

            Have you tried Glucosamine/Chondrotin for those knees?

          17. Scooter1 | Mar 05, 2004 07:03pm | #30

            Nah, the only drug I take is coffee. Gave up the smokes a couple decades ago. I'd like to get some Vicoden but Rush won't sell it to me.Regards,

            Boris

            "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

          18. User avater
            EricPaulson | Mar 05, 2004 11:30pm | #31

            Glucosamine Chondroitin is a supplement........it aids in joint funtion, keeps'em lubed so to speak. It works great for alot of people. Ain't cheap though, runs about $25 for a sixty day supply.

            Eric   

            (a preslope convert)

          19. smith2423 | Mar 09, 2004 07:26pm | #32

            Hi guys

            This whole conversation has been amusing and educational. Here’s the update, and more questions.

            First, thanks for all the ideas. I did get the Tile Council’s specs. Fascinating. Also chatted with the installer, did ask the “trick question” that Boris suggested (is the membrane attached to the subfloor?) and got an intelligent reply (of course not, gee there is this layer and that layer, etc etc).

            Also took a look at where the glass panel and shower door are attached to the curb, as Benny suggested. Wow! Imagine that… the glass (actually the metal frame) was caulked all around…EXCEPT on the inside, lower edge…. And when I looked closer at the vertical grout lines on the inside of the curb below where that was attached, in a few of them it actually looked like a little hole/crack with RUST color coming out…

            So, this makes me relieved in that I am hoping that the entire culprit was a lack of good sealing of the screw holes, allowing water to enter (the shower heads do spray directly on that seam).

            Nonetheless I pursued my questions and inquiry, and went looking for weep holes. Did not see any so phoned my installer. Here’s what he says: He uses a trench drain, not a regular drain. From the trench the water goes into the round hole in the center. In that hole he runs first the membrane and then a pvc fitting, such that the membrane is between the downdrain pipe and the pvc fitting. He says that any water getting into the area between the tile and the membrane will drain out thru there.

            Do any of you use that process? Pros and cons?

            At this point, can I fix the grout and take a shower and see what happens? If I do so and the problem was more than the screw holes, what would I look for?

            (By the way, the grout does NOT look like the description that Suntoad gave, gaping grout lines, water pouring into the floor. It’s more like little cracks that you would not notice [indeed I had not] unless you are looking on purpose, or unless you do like I did, which was to dry out the shower and notice some spots staying wet. Seeping water, not pouring ;-)

            Thanks!

            C Smith

          20. Scooter1 | Mar 09, 2004 10:02pm | #33

            By now, you know what kind of showers I install, and you will have probably guessed what my advice will be. You will not like my advice.

            You will never be happy with this year old shower. Showers are one of the most expensive areas of the home, on a square foot basis, and it is crazy to do anything but a first class bullet proof shower that lasts decades, not months.

            The grout on your shower will always give you trouble. You will be replacing it every year or two, and with the standing water on a flat subfloor, within a couple of seasons, you will start to get a moldy mildew smell and build up.

            Mold needs two things to grow: water and organic matter. The dirt and soap scum will provide the organic matter. Because of the flat membrane, you have the water pooling under the tile. Because there is no pre-slope, you will also have dirt, soap scum and water pooled on the flat membrane. This is a receipe for disaster.

            I have never heard of a trench drain, and did not understand what you were saying. The shower drain is very, very important because it comes in two halves, and they clamp together over the membrane to form a perfectly waterproof seal. The top half of the drain assembly has some weep holes which allow the moisture to exit the shower. I have no idea how the membrane attaches to a "trench drain" to make the assembly waterproof.

            Moreover, I don't understand why, in God's name, the tile setter just didn't use a SHOWER drain in a shower. This isn't a trench, it's a shower for Christ's sake. Get a clue!

            Given the fact that Code here is a quarter inch per foot slope, just like the same plumbing codes, and the Tile Council has been requiring sloped membranes for about 15 years now, I do not understand why any tile setter would in good conscience do something that runs against all the codes, the TCA, and common sense. I shake my head about this level of stupidity. At this poiint I have no confidence in your tile setter and must conclude that he is in fact an idiot, and should be working at Denny's. Like I said, the cost of a preslope is about $10. It takes one of my guys about 2 hours to pitch the membrane. The shower drain assembly is another $10 for a cheapie pvc job and about $30 for the cast iron ones I like to use.

            You can also limp along replacing the shower grout every couple years until it gives you more problems. Let the shower dry out completely for about a month, and seal the heck out of it with the best penetrating sealer, like Aquamix Gold ($60 a gallon), and keep it sealed every year. Towel drying the shower after each use will also reduce the mold and mildew, as will freqent dousing with a mild bleach solution. If this a guest shower, this is what I would do.

            But if this is your main daily use shower, you will never be happy and will be cussing this clown out until you sell the home. Hopefully you won't have a mold problem then and have to replace the shower just to sell the home.

            I'd rip out the shower and start again. I'd bill the contractor. He deserves to be sued at this point. I already hate him.

            Regards,

            Boris

            "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

          21. rez | Mar 05, 2004 06:01am | #23

            If you think this is anal, you oughta see what I do to walls and the wall floor joint. But that is another story..........

             

            Good lord Boris, put Natasha to bed and tell us about the walls and floorjoint.

            This post has got my attention big. 

          22. User avater
            JeffBuck | Mar 05, 2004 02:36am | #15

            Mr. Smith, I would call your tile contractor on this. I would gently ask him if the membrane was installed directly to the plywood subfloor. If he is as stupid as I think he is, he won't recognize that the question is a trap. When he says yes, pull out the specifications of the Tile Council of America and tell him you want it re-done. If he refuses, rip it out and have re-done--this time properly--and bill him for the cost

            Great answer ....

            nice trap.

            JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

                 Artistry in Carpentry                

          23. Sasquatch | Mar 05, 2004 03:08am | #17

            Using grout at the bottom instead of caulk is a problem.  The purpose is to allow the inevitable movement of the pan in relation to to walls.  In this case, the use of grout has worked in your favor.  It has led to the identification of a pooling problem which is unrelated to the movement problem.  You now know that there is moisture seeping out of the wall where there should be none.

            What do you do about it?  Stop drying the grout.  Let it get wet and describe the problem in a letter to your installer.  Ask him to come back, assess the problem, and provide a solution.  You are armed with excellent information from the other respondents.  Use this information wisely.  Let the installer know that you expect a complete fix.  It will be better for both of you if you establish that condition now.  Call the better business bureau and find out whether there are any complaints against this person.  Use that information to proceed carefully but forcefully to get what you paid for. 

            Do not allow the installer to solve the problem by removing grout and applying caulk.  You do have a potentially serious problem which could affect the framing in the shower area, a situation which might not be evident for some time, depending on how much use the shower gets.  Hence the need for documentation.  The paper trail will let your installer know you are serious and will put you in a better position if you should have to resort to legal action.  If at all possible, try to work this out first.

            If the water is coming in from above, it could be a simple matter to seal the valve area properly.  I hope this is the case.  Assuming the grout on the wall is properly applied, it is unlikely that water is getting behind the wall there.  That leaves pooling, which has been addressed by others.  I assume your plumber did a pressure test before the tile work was started.

            Good luck

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