Can someone tell me how much space is needed between the toilet flange and the bottom of the toilet to safely set the wax ring?
I am replacing a vinyl floor and underlayment in a bathroom where the floor has settled enough so, even with 1/4″ underlayment and the vinyl, the cast iron toilet flange will now be close to 3/8″ above the finished floor. This leaves me with only about 1/4″ space for the wax ring.
Raising the entire floor is not a viable option so my other options seem to be:
1. Gamble that I have enough space so the wax doesn’t all squeeze out.
2. Lower the cast iron flange which has been there 90 yrs. and I assume is lead soldered. How difficult would that be?
3. Use thicker underlayment. Haven’t found any plywood guaranteed void free locally.
4. Elevate the toilet on a 3/8″ pedestal. My current solutionon the old floor. Ugly!
5. Other?
Thanks!
oldfred
Edited 3/8/2007 8:28 pm ET by oldfred
Replies
fred. There's a maranti plywood that works here-exterior glue-3/8's. And I would feel confident with 3/8's Arauco ply. Solid, ext. glue.
edit: Then there's the dbl ring if you have a mind to.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Edited 3/8/2007 8:41 pm ET by calvin
Thanks
Either I don't understand what you mean by a double ring is or my problem is the opposite. The flange is so high above the floor it almost hits the toilet bottom, leaving little space for the wax.
first i don't think it's a problem to only have a 1/4" seal. thats all it does is seal the sewer gases from coming back up and stinking the place up. it really does very little as far as sealing water. when you flush the water goes down the horn and should be centered over the sewer line. now if you have sewer back up ,then you got water,but it will probably leak anyway.
now the next solution is if it still bothers you is look for a fluidmaster waxless seal. it has a o ring that seals insde the sewer about a inch below the flange.they work really well. i know lowes has them. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Thanks for the all good replies. I get kind of belt and suspenders careful with toilets, especially on the second floor. (in fact this one overflowed and all the water leaked through the kitchen ceiling the day we moved in 30 yrs. ago.) One thing I dislike even more than messing with toilets is painting ceilings.
I just rebuilt the joists and sub floor around it so it's pretty solid. Think I'll check out the o-ring at Lowes. I've never seen them.
Calvin, good night to watch Spring Training - thermometer reading right on zero at the moment!
Darn near balmy here tonight fred. Currently 20. Still snow on the ground. Going to be tough finding the golf ball next week.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Plenty of snow here but only since the end of January. I think a few were still playing after Chrismas this winter.
http://www.fernco.com/FTS.asp
Have not found them locally but looks good. Available for 4" also. Someone here said they worked well a while back.
Bob
Will check them out. Thanks
The problem with the O-ring type units is that they actually require more thickness than a wax ring.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Then I guess that possibility is out.
It probably doesn't cost much to try.One thing you might try is to coat the top of the flange with some soft caulk, cover with a piece of plastic wrap (make a sort of "dish" in the middle to accept the horn of the stool), and the set and carefully remove the stool. The caulk should squeeze out to show you how much space you have all around. Then you can decide if one of the special gizmos might work.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Good idea. I can't do that till I put down underlayment and vinyl to get a final floor height. Or I could play around with some different pieces of plywood to see what I'd get.
Ripped off the old vinyl, and old 1/4" underlayment and rebuilt around the toilet a while back. Then I cut out a "temporary" I/2' thick piece of ply and set the toilet on it. Been working fine (and so far DW has been patient) so I know I'd be close to OK with 1/4". Just don't know how close.
Finish taxes this week and tear out the toilet Monday.
Thanks for your imput.
"(in fact this one overflowed and all the water leaked through the kitchen ceiling the day we moved in 30 yrs. ago.) "
of, do you remember what caused it to overflow 30 years ago? Something caught in the bowl's trap maybe? Just curious because of the timing.
Hmmmm... now that you mention it, it does seem sort of curious. As I remember it was a blockage that was easily cleared with a plunger, so I didn't give it much thought.
Anybody using plumber's putty around edge of stool base to even things out and maybe decrease rocking when Aunt Bertha plops down?
Have you seen Aunt Bertha?! :) My goal is to avoid shims or any type of build-up if possible. It's sitting solid on the temp. floor riser and I'm hoping it won't rock when I'm done.
Well, if Aunt Bertha can squish thru the plumber's putty, at least it keeps the mop water and godforbid overflow from sneaking under the stool. This commode probably uses 6 gallons or so to flush. 1919 vintage...
Oh yeah, how 'bout a marble commode platform like you'd use on hardwood floors...Local countertop guy might even GIVE you a piece of corian from a sink cutout... IF you unsolder the commode mounting apparatus, and you don't burn down the house in the process, THEN you gotta cut the pipe without breaking it, and clean it and resolder it IF it's not cast iron, if it is....good luck.
Edited 3/9/2007 1:49 pm ET by BZbuilder
Plumber's putty shouldn't be used there for several reasons, one being that it won't help rocking worth s**t.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
sorry fred, the dbl ring is for long distance runners.
I shouldn't respond with dinner on the table, spring training highlights on and after a couple buckets at the dome.
My apologies.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Use a plain wax ring without an imbedded plastic horn or reenforcing. Consider chilling the ring (to make it stiffer) and then slicing it in half (or maybe 1/3 & 2/3rds, using the 2/3rds part) to make it a bit thinner. (Rewarm before installing.)
Work extra hard at getting the stool SOLID, with ABSOLUTELY no rocking or other movement when anyone (incluging huge Aunt Bertha) sits on it. With such a thin wax ring you lose a lot of flexibility and the connection won't tolerate as much movement as a normal one would.
"Work extra hard at getting the stool SOLID"
Are you talking about the turd or the toilet?
Either. Just take pride in your work.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
To ALL,
Thanks for all the input. It now looks like more work than it's worth to remove two subfloors and stand on my head to remove the flange. I was foolishly thinking it might saw easily but that doesn't sound likely.
I may pop the floors if it looks doable, but more likely will check the finished level of the vinyl and, if need be,try for the corian build-up piece. Or maybe one of the white food prep cutting boards would be thinner and would work? Bandsaw and router should shape it easy.
I sure appreciate everyone's help.
oldfred
HEY! My Taunton message notifications are working again!
that was great!
Put a stright edge across the underside of the toilet and see how much space you have. If you have more than the 3/8" it will fit and seal fine.
I have found its easier to put the ring on the flange and use an angled mirror to guide you as you lower the toilet.
I like to set the bowl up on a pair of 2x4s on edge, line it up, get the bolts started, then flip the 2x4s flat to lower it a little, then pull them out. Lets you get down and inspect the mating all the way down.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Thanks. I did that last time I had it off and remember there wasn't much space, but they don't actually touch.
Cast iron flanges usally are approx. 1/4 inch from the finished floor to the top, if you come up with 3/8in. that may work, dry fit the toilet and see if it rocks on the flange, if so you can shim the toilet or replace the flange, hope I'm helping, lots of luck.
"If all else fails, read the directions"
Shacko,
I'm hoping someone can tell me what would be involved in removing the old cast iron flange and lowering it or putting in a new one. That would be my optimum choice if it were feasable.
I'm guessing this flange was installed in 1919 when the house was built. All the cast iron seems in good condition, but I still don't want to get too rowdy with it.
I have had to do this several times and it does not take that long but I have always had access from below so your situation will be a bit different.
Go rent a chain cutter and buy a Fernco coupler of the right size and work your way to the nearest vertical piece of pipe from the toilet. Sometimes you get lucky and there is space under the flange to do this and sometimes you have to go all the way to a stack. Cut the pipe while leaving enough space for the coupler to go back on to the pipe and not hit a joint. Then cut off enough of the pipe to drop the pipe to final height plus an 1/8" to accommodate the coupler. Then put it all back together with the coupler. You will need to support the toilet drain line so it does not put stress on the coupler and cause a leak in the future.
This is not always possible to do and you should try the wax rings first. If you can not get a chain cutter onto the pipe you can buy a carbide grit blade (not a hacksaw blade this one has no teeth just grit) for a sawzall and cut the pipe that way but it is hard to get a straight cut and it leaves sharp edges that you have to file down. Good luck
Day
There are a half-dozen ['twas I that was half-dozed] different ways the CI flange can be attached. You indicated that you thought it was with lead pipe. In some cases, if you can cut the pipe off clean you can attach a plastic unit with a Fernco, but not sure if you can (safely) do that with lead.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Edited 3/9/2007 2:31 pm by DanH
"I'm hoping someone can tell me what would be involved in removing the old cast iron flange and lowering it or putting in a new one. "
I've done this. You can chisel out the lead and oakum -- pretty easy job, but tedius. I used a cutoff wheel on an angle grinder to cut the CI to the lenght I needed and installed a new flange that attached via a rubber compression fitting so I didn't have to deal with lead & oakum since I don't have a plumber's stove. Took about 3 hours all told and has been working fine for 9 years now.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Edited 3/9/2007 2:59 pm ET by MikeHennessy
Note that you're talking about cast iron leaded in, not a lead pipe.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
heres a way to lower that flange and never go under the house.first you pry the old one off,they usally are held with some lead that has been hammered down around the flange. they make a repair flange [you can buy a pvc or a cast iron,i prefer the cast iron] that you actually insert into the pipe,set level with the floor and then tighten down three bolts that compress a rubber gasket tight against the inside the cast iron. last one i bought was at hd,i don't think lowes has them. they cost about 20-25 apiece.
if you get jamed up and can't find one let me know i will go to hd here and ship it to you.larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Everyone seems to be assuming a different scheme for how this flange is attached -- cast iron all the way, cast iron transitioning to copper (though I'd expect the flange to be brass in that case), and cast iron transitioning to lead are the three schemes mentioned.It's important to figure out what you really have before you start on any scheme.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
if you have cast iron all the way how else do they "couple " the flange to the cast iron. maybe they made a flange that was molded right to a 1'pc of cast but i've never seen it. around here the cast comes up and they either lead it in or use oakum to seal it. just wondering in case i hit it sometime. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
I've see where the flange and elbow were all one piece of cast iron. Was a 5-in flange opening to boot, making it a little tricky to get the wax ring to fit.Where it's been lead I mostly recall the flange being brass, and the lead being soldered to that.Of course, if this were a lead elbow it would be easy -- fit the floor under the flange, set a 2x6 flat on the flange, and give it a few good whacks.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
thats a interesting trick i will have to remember, i pretty good with a big hammer and 2x4.i can tear up more than i can fix in a day!larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Old style cast iron was called pack and pour, the flange was installed by packing oakum to approx. one inch from the top, the rest was filled with molten lead, it was then caulked. Lead pipe had a brass flange soldered on it. I would not beat on a lead pipe, remember MURPHY!!
The one that I worked on consisted of a lead pipe (and a bend IIRC).Into the side of that, just below the flange was a wiped in lead drain from the sink and from the tub.The flange was brass and the lead was just pounded over it.I was able to use a chisle and work the edge up on about 3/4's of it. Just enough to break it loose from the flange.Then worked the flange down aobu 1/4" and the hammer the lead back out and trimmed off the exess lead.This was about a 1970 house..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Larry'
A very generous offer. Thanks. As I wrote in the prevousu thread, if it looks easy, I might give it a try. Will check hd.
Thanks,
oldfred
I had this problem as well when I remod my 1/2 bath. I unsoldered the flange (yes its just lead soldered) cut the copper pipe down a bit and then resoldered the flange back on. Little dicey cutting the pipe down without the pro tools to do so but it all came out great.
Edited 3/9/2007 3:52 pm ET by Toolsguy