As of yesterday, no hot h2o in upstairs bathrm (sink or shower/tub.) It has worked the past year that we’ve been here. It stills works everywhere else in house. 3 changes the past week: very cold weather, rarely above zero; use of fireplace almost daily (it’s one floor down, directly below this bathroom; I replaced the exhaust/condensate line on the furnace, which was leaking from numerous joints…
I checked all valves. They’re open. I checked for any signs of leakage all over the house… none. I made a few exploratory holes around the fireplace, and no supply lines run near the firebox.
Any ideas what could be going on before I open up more walls… to my wife’s displeasure.
from frigid Hardin, MT,
Bill
Replies
Very possibly frozen.
More details needed.
Copper, PEX, PB, CPVC, galvanized steel?
And is home run system with a manifold (more common with PEX) or the trunk lines with tap offs at to feed each location?
And where is are the pips run to this bathroom.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Thanks very much for your reply. I found the ice block and cleared it about 5 minutes after my post. The hot line (copper, coming off a trunk) runs through the soffit with about 4" of fiberglass insulation separating it from the 10 -20 below temperatures. I got a hold of the past owner who said this has happened before, so he knew exactly where I had to to look.It's running now. I guess I'll add a couple of more layers of insulation there. thanks again,
Bill
I don't know what the overall construction is.But often soffits are sometime open to the attic.And if the pipes come up a plumbing chase then you have nice open path for cold air to circulate around the pipes.And FG will allow air to flow.You want insulation between the pipes and any cold. Not "infront" of the pipes are toward heated side.Best to get some sheet foam. Polyio is the best if you can get it or use the extruded stryfoam (blue or pink board).And put it behind the pipes and seal it in place with great stuff..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Got it William, All the insulation is on the outside of the pipes... away from the conditioned space, toward the outside of the soffit. And yes, some darn cold air has blown through there, so the single blanket currently there isn't close to enough. I'll take your advise on the board styrofoam and fill the cavity between that and the pipes with FG. Does that make sense? pipes with wrapped insulation-then-fg padding-then-Polyio surrounding so there are no air gapsthanks,
Bill
Glad you found it.
I had my own missing water problems years ago after moving in to a brand new home. Found the frozen pipe where it ran through the cold air return. The cold air returns they do around here are made by using the stud bay between the walls. Well this particular pipe was in the very middle of my basement. The cold air return found it was just as easy to pull air through the multiple holes drilled by the plumbers and electricians than it was to pull it from the house.
The bonus was, once I fixed the holes, the furnance decided it didn't want to run as much!
It also snowed in my basement the first year there. Great contractor but his guys were a little rambunctious. They missed a couple of small pieces of plywood triangles where the cantilevered bay went over the foundation. Had a nice neat little pile of snow under both corners of the bay.
Contractor was also a good friend so I never complained about either issue.
Which brings up a good point, I don't do major business like this or buying/selling a car with friends or relatives. We picked the friend over a cousin in law to build the house and the cousin in law wanted to know why. I told him that we are going to see each other at weddings, funerals, and holidays. On something big with lots of money involved someone might get upset about something and the money you might save me (or the money you might make) isn't worth hard feelings and trying to avoid each other at every get together. He understood and now we can talk freely at all functions.
In addition to adding insulation between your pipes and the outside, you need to leave the pipes themselves uninsulated and open to what warm air can reach them from the inside.
When pipes run through outside walls (which they should not do anywhere north of, say, SeeYou's place), this means ventilating the stud bays from the warm side. In your case (a pipe running through an exterior soffit! Good Grief!) I am not quite sure how you're gonna do that: to warm up your pipe, you'd have to put warm air into a roof structure, and you don't want to do that either ('cause it will cause other problems).
It seems to me the ultimate solution is going to be to re-route the pipe.
Until you do that, you might want to wrap that pipe with a heating wire on a thermostat.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I may have misunderstood but I thought the OP was talking about pipes in a kithcen soffit above the cabinets. I sure wish my builder had put mine in after drywalling the ceiling in the kitchen but alas mine are open to the attic too. My house is old enough that IC cans weren't popular/readily available so I had to crawl up there and box over them and then filled the soffit up with loose fill.
Rather than filling the soffit with loose insulation, it's better to cover it over, making the area "conditioned space". Otherwise the joist bays are left open to the attic and considerable heat can convect up the joist bays into the attic, even with the area filled with insulation.Of course, it's often easier said than done to seal such soffits after-the-fact -- I know I had a dickens of a time in our house and did an imperfect job.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
Thanks. I have to go back up there again anyway so I'll take another look. Sure would have been nice if the would have just thrown up the drywall before the put the soffits in.
Yeah, that's the way it should be done, but it makes the framing of the soffit a hair more difficult (plus it means that the framing can't be completed until after the drywall's up) so your hack contractors do it the other way (if the inspector lets them).
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
I may have misunderstood but I thought the OP was talking about pipes in a kithcen soffit above the cabinets.
I may have misunderstood, too; this is what he posted:
Not real clear, actually.
In any event, if the soffit in question has cold enough air in it to freeze a pipe, the pipe shouldn't be running through it. (Don't ask me how I found this out....)
There are a lot of owner-built (or owner-remodeled) places up here with this kind of problem; the usual solution is to punch holes in the gyprock both below and above the pipe and install vent grills in those holes. There has to be flow-through ventilation of warm air into the rafter- or stud-bays. A single hole isn't enough as the warm air can't flow into a sealed bay unless blown in through forced ventilation.
If simple venting won't do it, Pete Draganic's suggestion of wrapping the pipes with electrical heating tape is a good one (albeit a temporary solution); my uncle's summer cabin in the Poconos was subject to freezing pipes in the crawlspace and that's how he solved it. Cheaper than keeping four big whonking space heaters running all winter down there....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Thanks for all the responses, even those that had little bearing on the question (see below). Regardless of his nickname, I'm going with the Dinosaur's advice and setting up flow-through ventilation around these pipes (yes, I will insulate and wall them off from the very cold air in the soffit)... I'm really not sure why it seems surprising that air blowing through the soffit at -10 to-20 would freeze pipes... makes sense to me, plus, it happened. On the less relevant topic of hot h2o freezing before cold... yep, it's really true. Lots of stuff on the "internets" about it. I found this link the most complete, though it's not for those afraid of a little science talk... http://sasuke.econ.hc.keio.ac.jp/~ken/physics-faq/hot_water.htmlI did my own experiment last night, and it worked. Glass starting at 175degrees froze 12 minutes before identical glass starting at 70degrees. The cold gets a faster start, but the initial frost layer insulates it, and the hot keeps freezing steadily... see explanation in link above. I think dissolved gasses and convection make the most sense. But hey guys! Water inside pipes is most likely an entirely other debate... hence the irrelevance.
Put more insulation (rigid foam is best) between the pipe and the outside. Put **NO** insulation between the pipe and the inside.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
i'd recommend electrical tape (the heated cable type) on a thermostat to keep the pipe thawed in the worst weather.... or a clever rerouting of pipe.
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I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
"I guess I'll add a couple of more layers of insulation there."
Insulation will not warm up a cold space. It only holds in what heat is otherwise provided. Add insulation and plug up any sources of cold air infiltration, then open up the space to conditioned air. Just cutting a hole and installing a register cover to open the area up to conditioned space is usually enough.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Hi, I'm over here in Stevensville - i feel your pain. You've got frozen pipes and the sooner you get the wall open and some heat on it, the better. For heavens sake, don't leave the valves to the area open when you do this bec when it thaws, you'll have water everywhere. This is especially true if your place was plumbed with CPVC (hard plastic tubing). Copper pipe tends to split and weep and might buy you a bit more time before you have a gusher. I've had PEX and PB (flexible plastic) pipe completely freeze and then thaw without incident. Also, be diligent about leaving the cabinet doors under all your sinks open - this helps a lot to keep those supply lines and drains clear.
The problem with not fixing this sooner than later is that the frozen area is expanding as i type and you read. I don't know about Hardin, but this heat wave of over-zero degrees we're having on the west side of the Big Sky is expected to reverse again by the weekend.
Be certain that any heat source you use is monitored. I like using heat and a fan, but heat tape can be good if you can get it to the right spot. It's a sad irony how often firefighters get called out this time to year to fight home fires started by folks trying to heat frozen pipes.
Best of luck to you. I promise you that cutting out drywall on purpose beats replacing it...and soaked insulation...and wet wiring...and carpet...
Edit: Just read your reply to Bill, Bill. Congratulations!
Edited 12/17/2008 2:36 pm by splintergroupie
BTW for the future, the hot water always freezes before the cold.
Hot water molecules are oriented more similar to ice molecules than cold water molecules therefore freezes first.
Strange but true.
Actually, I believe that's been debunked.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
I googled it and they say it is true. I learned it years ago but what I have observed is that the hot water side always freezes first. (when both hot and cold are out in a soffit)
I might be nuts, wrong, and crazy (happily, of course) but seems to keep proving itself.
"BTW for the future, the hot water always freezes before the cold."So, when you need more ice cubes fast, do you fill your ice trays with hot water?BruceT
That is what they say.
I never fill the ice cubes but give er a try.
1 tray cold and 1 tray hot
"the hot water always freezes before the cold."
Hey, I remember that gradeschool science experiment. Put two ice cube trays in the freezer, one with hot water, the other with cold and see which freezes first.
Doesn't work as well if you jostle the trays around, tho'. ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA