Asked a question last year on well drilling, subject came up again on the “water from creek” discussion. D. Thomas asked to hear more, so here it is for what it’s worth.
Anyway, city limits are only 2 blocks from me now and lots of “storm water drainage ponds” going in right uphill from me. I’ve successfully lived off an 18 ft hand-dug well for 30 years (wife and I dug in 1971 that only went dry once in record drought of ’87. ime to get serious.
I started the deep well in ’73 but it was half hearted attempt, have done a little every year, but never got anywhere. Glad I kept at it all those years, state passed a law recently that grandfathers in old wells but has a fee for new stuff. Glad I got my water rights in 70’s.
1st cable tool try in ’74. Found a 5 ft. long 3-1/2″ dia steel rod as scrap, welded 1-1/2 rock bits to it, raised on capstan using wood reel on old reel lawnmower, only got a few feet in a few days – deep posthole is all.
2nd somewhat serious try, ‘circa ’84. Had a free 5″ auger from a powerline anchor, attached to old 2T Int. Harvester transmission and 5HP electric motor geared thru flywheel, tried that, just bounced off rocks.
3rd try, ’87 drought. More bouncing off rocks. Went down and hand dug portion from 15 ft. to 18 ft on Thanksgivig day ’87. (naturally, that’s when it went dry)
4th try, brute force, early 90’s. JD440 and bucket, dig really big hole, only ended up with personal “storm water drainage pond”
5th try, 40AC plat 2 blocks uphill started being seriously discussed early 90’s (actually building houses there today) , now I’m a little scared about my water supply (would cost me $7000 to hook up to water district plus $$/per month, not in my character). This final effort would literally last years, part time on and off.
a. surveyed backyard junk piles, had enough scrap steel for 25 foot tower to bolt to back of track loader. Built that and a slide to mount the old IH transmission and motor with winch.
b. welded up more scrap (figure I went thru 75#of wleding rod on this thru the years) for 8″ dia bucket auger, driven at 30 rpm by IH trnasmission via 2″ water pipe. Hit boulder at 15 feet down (first 50 feet is all cobble, hardpan, and glacial boulders) and sheared the output shaft of the transmission.
c. Over next winter, machined out 2″ 4340 bar for new output shaft with full 2″ dia. shaft-pipemshould fail first. Rats, now I stripped all the teeth off the transmission bull gear – an auger don’t work when it hits 1/2 ton boulders
d. Read some more about drilling. Rotary tool and mud pump seemed too much work, plus I might even have to buy some parts (ugh), but cable tool is said to be abe to go thru anything.
e. added a 4″ square of steel 7′ long to the old 1974 bit. Took bed off old ’71 Datsun, welded pitman arm driven by ’72 Impala rear end thru Datsun transmission/5HP elec motor driven (later GMC transmission after I destroyed all 3 Dat. trannys I had laying around) , 1/2 ‘ cable over pulley at top of tower on loader, started drilling at the bottom of the about 12’ hole I’d started in previous years. A3 foot stroke a second, all the neighbors came around to see what was going on<G>.
f. Previous years’s hole was lined with 10″ dia industrial spiral 12 ga duct, bit caught bottom, luckily was able to grab bottom and pull it out of the concrete seal. Now going great, got to 20 feet down in only 2 days. Then stopped, started bringing up black basalt chips.
g. Persistence – on and off trying some more, more balck chips, 2 feet in > month and suddenly the boulder was punched thru – dropped in a 21 ft piece of 8″ sch 40 pipe (had to buy it -ugh!) and cemented it in, at least 20 ft. is good.
h. lost bailer down hole – a whole summer of letting the cable tool pound and eventually ate the bailer into steel chips.
i. It is now all the way to Y2000, and the development up the street is giving me serious concerns about my shallow aquifer. Time to get serious!
j. Finally get past 45 feet, then apparently part of the big basalt boulder at 20 feet falls down uncased hole in hardpan, takes many more days to chip that away. Pour in gallons of bleach and cap over winter. Come spring, drop in another 21 feet of steel pipe (6″ sch 40 this time).
k. Finally, this spring, make it to 59 feet, and everything changes to impermeable blue clay, time to stop. Pumps 7 gpm all day, biggest pump I have for 60 ft down. Dump in more bleach and cap it off till fall . We will see how it does this fall. (Relatively dry summers here, water table typically lowest late October or even early Nov.)
Attachments: Flushwell is 400 gpm chlorinated H2O from pond via 3″ fire hose going down 60 ft of 2″ pipe to flush sand – over 2 yds of black sand came up. Pitman arm is at the left of the pix, barely see back of Datsun cab – cracked the chassis in half twice from vibration fatigue!
#231 is yougest grandson enjoying the temporary “creek”
Replies
So, ah, how'd you get that nickname? Joe H
You da man! Great story!
Glad to see the kids in there - A kid ought to be able to play in the mud once in a while...
I gotta wonder - After spending all that time and effort, was it worth it, or do you think you would've been better off to have just hired it done years ago?
I have an Uncle who's probably like you - Likes to do everything himself to save money. But sometimes he wastes so much time working on unproductive things, I think he would have been ahead in the long run to hire something done and get on to doing something himself that he's better at.
I had a rough childhood. When I was born,the doctor advised me of my rights
Ron:
Worth it for 3 main reasons:
1. Very practical knowledge gained, unable to find anything specific on the web or in textbooks like I learned doing it. Also a good way to learn persistence and patience.
2. Where am I going to get good excercise? Told Gabe a few weeks back that mixing concrete by hand is better than paying money at gym to lift cast iron (day job is at desk).
3. I now also have a 22 foot crane for the back of my tractor <G>, that would have been a worthwhile effort by itself.
Another reason is it's in the blood. Great great grandfather was in your So. IL neck of woods (Venedy, IL) and built his own sawmill, grain mill, coal mine, forge shop, etc. etc. The coal mine operated till 1968.
I wasn't critizing what you did, was kinda curious/thinking out loud.
I guess it's in my blood too - I once set up 3 mowers together that would cut a 60" swath. Has $15 invested in them. But I got tired of tinkering with 3 engines, so I ended up cutting loose with some big bucks to buy a better riding mower. ($150) But I still use a 7HP push mower I made from parts of other mowers. (Really kicks butt, too)
Do you get ticked off when you can't figure something out? Or when someone tells you you can't do something? I sure do. Guess that's a personality trait or something.
So did I end up screwing around with those mowers so much that I would've been better off to just go buy a bigger mower sooner? Not an easy question - It's hard to know when to quit.
One should never generalize.
JUNKHOUND
Loved your story. Look forward to the fall follow-up.
Boss. Having a mind somewhat like Junkhound, I can say from my own experience that cost (or should I say cost-savings) here is secondary if its even a factor. For me, its the challange and, as my wife says, the 'perception' of control over my world...I don't rely on others. Anyway, thats just my twisted view.
BruceM
Man, wish I coulda done what Junkhound did. But, I faced 75 ft of hardpan and GA red clay, followed by an interminable number of feet of granite bedrock. We cannot drink anything found before the bedrock, so you drill till you hit an aquifer. for us, 350 ft. I have a pile of granite sand that solidified beyond belief. Hired a guy w/ a well drilling rig as big as a SCUD launcher. That's the only thing that will find water around here. Avg well is over 300 ft. Some folks go 400 ft and never find water. My B-I-L went 600 ft near Hendersonvill, NC and had a totally dry hole. He still cries about it.
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
The spirit of Rube Goldberg is alive and well!
Junkhound I loved the story and the tenacity...keep on tinkering!<g>
Mongo
Junkhound: Thanks for the great story. Seems like you'd fit in really well up here.
On "Junkyard Wars" they make hovercraft, a car crusher, an airplane(!), etc. How about a plumbing version? Drill a well, build a pump. Get water flowing, make a hot tub. First one to be soaking in 104F water wins!
I've been kicking around sinking my own well (fire protection water and just for the heck of it). I know I've got 100+ feet of clean sands below 3' of brown dirt. And water is only at 45'. Seems a stretch for a post hole digger with some serious extensions. The bucket auger would be a nice approach. I like your decreasing diameters of casing as a way to avoid driving long lengths of casing. A tower would be fun, but a few of these 65' foot spruce trees could be pressed into service.
A lot of backyard mechanics up here work on their own planes (we're a long ways from the nearest FAA office). I remember telling one guy, "with 150 hp, you've GOT to have more than a 1/2" line to run coolant". Fortunately, he kept his eye on the temp gauge during run-up and therefore aborted take off until he fixed it.
David:
Wow, 100 feet of clean sand! You can simply jet that baby in. H.F. has a 3" pump for $39 that is easily adapted to run off a car engine (replaced AC compressor on an '84 Chrysler in my case) that could fill a 55 gal barrel in < 10 seconds. Blew sand easily from 60 feet down back out the 6/8" casing.
Had applications ready for Juneau, Ancorage, and Fairbanks ready in '71 in case I was "knighted" at work (Sir Plus!) when SST was cancelled, but stayed on. At that time it looked like I could pick whatever power company I'd be willing to work for in Alaska.
My boss from the '60s built his own Veri_eze (sp?) in the early 80's. I've never tried as I don't think I have the discipline for flight critical stuff at home (probably too much exposure at work to commercial/space protocols by comparison to quick and dirty home methods).
PS-tried your e-mail via the prospero link, came back undeliverable - do you have a new e-mail?.
Junkhound: my email is dthomas (at) alaska.net.
Jetting sounds really appealing. Lots of big around up here.
There are now bolt-together kitplanes that take 400-600 hours to assemble. I'm looking at a 2-seater that stalls at 28 mph and takes off in 90 feet (ground roll). Those early composite Rutan planes from plans were very innovative but also took a few thousand hours to build. My wood boats are stitch-n-glue, not strippers. Similiarly, my plane(s) will be pop-riveted, not laid-up. Leaves more time to paddle/fly that way.
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Junkhound. WOW! What an exercise in tenacity. (Also a great read.) Reminds me of two old friends one,a refrigeration mechanic)He drilled a well through his basement floor and reached water enough to pump coolant water to a commercial air conditioning unit erected right above it.
That unit was removed from an office building where it had cooled a whole floor of tenants. His house is cool all summer and the water is piped to irrigate all the grass and shrubbery on his property. The unit he got for free.
Also the motors and pumps for the asking Alas, he hasn't figured how to create electricity needed for the motors??/The other friend (A police man) had a small house on Long Island but it had a small 'crawl space' with only 36 inches of head room. Over a few years, he single handedly dug out sections (Mostly sand and rocks and sea shells)...dug and placed footings and built up foundation from reinforced concrete also added a few sections at a time, TENACITY???Steinmetz.
Edited 8/24/2008 9:35 pm ET by Steinmetz
> I know I've got 100+ feet of clean sands below 3' of brown dirt. And water is only at 45'.
How do you find out that kind of thing? Here in LA, nobody even thinks about wells.
Weekend before last, I put in a ground rod using 30 ft. of 1" type K copper pipe. I flattened the bottom end, and fed city water thru a hose to the top, and let the thing erode its way down into the ground. It took four hours. I think I hit a couple rocks along the way, it would sort of stall for a while until it eroded out around the rock and pushed it aside. What came back up out of the hole was mostly coarse sand. I plan on keeping a brass plug in the NPT fitting on the pipe so I can dip stick it in the future and see if there's permanent water down there.
-- J.S.
> I know I've got 100+ feet of clean sands below 3' of brown dirt. And water is only at 45'.
How do you find out that kind of thing? Here in LA, nobody even thinks about wells.
I just stand on my beach and look up at the exposed bluff. The seeps start about 45 down. (And I read a lot of environmental reports)
The local water resources board has groundwater contour maps (like topo map of the surface, but it show water depth) and info on soils types.
Theoretically, well logs that drillers must file are public record. But in many areas the boring log is blanked as the driller's proprietary information. Historically, that best way to be a succesful and profitable driller was to have a daddy and uncle who were drillers. So you grow up knowing where and how deep the water-bearing strata are.
But now, lots of people like me install a lot of wells for toxic waste sites. Look at the nearest gas station and the minimall that used to be gas stations. Look for a 9" to 12" round vault box cover that says "monitor well do not fill" or has a triangle in a circle. The well log for that will be 1) much more detailed, 2) note when water was found, 3) note signs of contamination if any, and 4) likely be part of a report that measured groundwater flow direction and velocity.
The environmental reports ARE public info, the whole thing. Just call your state Dept of Environmental Quality/Conservation/Protection or in California, the local Regional Water Quality Control Board or the State Leaking Underground Fuel Tank (LUFT) Program.
There was about a year when they called it the Leaking Underground Storage Tank Program. And the General Operational Director's door said, "L.U.S.T. G.O.D." on it. Then they changed it, darn.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Found this old thread in search of well drilling.
Wanted to pick your brain a bit if I may.
Been debating drilling a well in the basement.
I'm a couple hundred yards from Lake Erie and basement floor is already 7 foot down. A yard deep sump pit in there sometimes will show water.
Obviously it's all sand. What diameter casing might you recommend and how deep might be considered plenty?
No, I don't plan on drinking it.
H.F. has a 3" pump for $39 that is easily adapted to run off a car engine (replaced AC compressor on an '84 Chrysler in my case) that could fill a 55 gal barrel in < 10 seconds. Blew sand easily from 60 feet down back out the 6/8" casing.
Should I investigate something of that nature or just go rent a sludge pump?
Opinions?
I have these 20some inch 3ft long ceramic culvert tile bell fitting that are heavyazz mothers. Got to thinking if those sections were fitted one following the other the weight of them would push them down as the sand was removed. Too much outer friction? Won't slide down because of the bell edging?
Welllll.... am I crazy?
be well
Edited 1/4/2005 5:09 pm ET by rez
I wanna see ya get the drilling rig in there.yes, you are crazy.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I'll just do it>
No rig.
No fun.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I'll just do it>
I've got one that'll fit in his basement. Went down thru 130' of rock for me. Only 4" bore though. Oops, sand. Make that an 8" bore without the hammer.
Crazy is good.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
How about an update? Any new developments?My dad, brother an me pounded in a point well on some land I've got in N. Wisconsin. 24 feet, straight down through sand. Hit water at 7 feet. Took about 3 hours. When my brother gave it all he had, he could pound it down 1/8-1/4" with one shot.I built a house about 5 years ago and hired some guys who were real throwbacks--they had a well driver that took about a day and a half to set up, mounted on and off of an old truck, I don't remember the make but I think it was made in the '20's. Made a hell of a racket, and took them 3 weeks to get good water at that site! I've got a picture somewhere; if you're interested I can try to dig it out
Oh, for to have had some sand. I recall hitting one black basalt boulder about 3 ft thick (black chips came up in the bailer about pea gravel size, all sharp edges though) that took over a whole day to drill through (for 6" pipe) !
It took a day and a half to grind/pound/cut up the bailer I lost down hole (4 inch sq tube 1/8" wall, potato chip size pieces of steel would get bailed up with the 'new' bailer) !
steeple it over the house and go from there...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I've never heard of anyone drilling a well from their basement. I was talking with
a well driller in my area a few months ago who assured me artesian wells were
alot more common than I thought. I had been taught artesian wells, those that hit a
vein of water stong enough to force itself out of the ground, were extremely rare.
If you hit one you won't be moving to the Clampitt's neighborhood! Just a thought.
No profile, where is your area (reminds me, after Luka said to delete profile info, I forgot to go back and fix mine)
If you are in the Ozarks, there is a preponderance of artesian, in central Illinois, none or almost none up on the plains, only in river bottoms and more rightly called springs there. .
This is Boston area. The driller had a newer drilling rig. Must have been a $250,000.00 rig with all the equipment it had, so I'm sure he travels a decent distance from just west of Boston in Waltham were he is. He did correct me for thinking artesian wells were unusual though and any wells I've seen haven't been in a basement, made me curious.
If rez is to hit a true artesian like some of them around here, he'll wish he hadn't done it in the basement! I know of three on this island that get eighty gal per minute and take a digger to channel a stream to guide the flow away from the house.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I was thinking any water would probably be static seeing the house is 200yds from the lakeshore with a brook running on the other side of the house about 75ft away.
You guys really think there might be a possibility of hitting an artesian well in a sandy location like that?
Be the "Crazy One" !
Tim Mooney
ok, then who's going to get 'looney'?
be not going to go there either
Well Ive got an idea , but Ill give you the honor of tagging it .
Tim Mooney
First, the basement thingy with sand. If actually all sand, you don't even need a drilling rig, just a pump and adeaquate (big)water source. My water source was a 5 ft deep pond 40 ft in dia and it pumped dry even with the water running back in in under 7 hours or so. Pumped out about 6 yds of sand in that 7 hours.
Soil conditions: look at your state's web site, they may have a compliationof well logs (WA state just started last year, too late for me, think Ohio was first a few years back. Nearby well logs will tell what the soil is at what depths. 1/2 mile down the hill from me, 400 ft lower in the Cedar river valley, there are 30" dia wells only 20 ft deep that can pump over 1000 gal minute.
Can you flood your basement for a few days or weeks? I was 60 ft down (I hit a layer of blue clay which is the bottom of where the glacier was, 5 ft or more of sand on top of that, big cobble all the way to the sruface from there. If you have all sand and can flood the basement with a secondary sump pump to a holding pond (or 10 ft dia by 3 ft deep pool) you can just about sluice your 20" pipe down 20 feet easy. The first well I ever did (20 YO or so) was 30 " dia 20 ft deep with posthole digger, bucket and windlass and vacuum cleaner to blow air down the hole -lotta work in cobble and hardpan. In sand, you can just stack the tiles on top at the surface as they sink and the sand gets pump into the outside pool. Le's see, a 10 ft dia will settle out a little over a foot deep with sand (check the calc) for a 20 ft deep 20 inch tile.
Unless you have an extra car or car engine sitting about you can hook a HF pump to (you probably need a lathe to make the parts to interface everything, it took me about 5 hours to set up the HF 3" pump on an 84 chrysler 2.2L engine) , rent a big pump and have at it. Count on a weeks rental, it may take you 2-3 days to figure out what you are doing (G)
Attachment updates:
1 pumphouse pix is east wall of tower built to be able to pull 60 ft of pipe at a time. The upper roof is removeable, and 2 ton winch permanently installed.
2. "wellhead plus storage" is inside, kinda gets used for storage of extra saws and compressors, etc.
3. "tower down' is tower laying in the storage yard, have not used it since, bolted to the back of the dozer.
4. interior spiral stairs, definetely not "stan" quality, and a poor pix also, but eh grandkids like to climb it to the top of the tower.
I did not try to format the pix, no idea how well they will show on breaktime.
"4. interior spiral stairs, definetely not "stan" quality, and a poor pix also, but eh grandkids like to climb it to the top of the tower."Grandkids, AND visiting village idiots !;)I could see New York from up there !!!
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
Update.
Great water, all I want, zero problems since. Got a bigger pump to check out the flow 6 years ago, pumped 29 GPM or so all day one August.
Posted this update as brownbagg recalled this thread on a concurrent discussion on ground water.
Wow, your lucky with 29 GPM. The well on my property only produces 0.5 GPM at times, sometimes its 4 GPM. I don't know why it fluctuates so much, I talked to 2 different drillers and none could explain why.
The well is drilled to 500+ feet, pump sits at 430.The neighbor across the road gets 10 GPM at 120 feet at the same elevation I am . Another neighbor 300 yards down the road who sits 50 yards lower than me gets 30 GPM at 60 feet down.
It's hit and miss on Cranbrook hill were I live.Martin
Just hand dig that thing and be done with it .
"Been debating drilling a well in the basement."Why?........ if I might ask.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
I had to think about that,
and at the risk of sounding like a smart azz,
I guess because it's there and seems doable.
be being off the grid as much as possible
all that just so u'd have a reason to post a pic of your grandchild.... ur a good grandfather
p