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Well Pump Advice

gordsco | Posted in General Discussion on November 29, 2009 04:28am

First of all let me say I don’t know

about well pumps. Grew up in the city, moved to the country.

I have a shallow, dug well 25′ deep behind the house.&

#160;The pump and pressure tank are in my basement it runs on 110volts.

Lately, as in the last few days, the water coming out of the tap stops running for a few seconds when the pump kicks in.

Does this mean the pump is on it’s way out and if so, what pump should I replace it with?

 

Reply

Replies

  1. junkhound | Nov 29, 2009 04:50am | #1

    You have a waterlogged pressure tank.

    What does 'watterlogged' mean  -- there is very little air cushion in your tank.  You turn on the tap, pressure drops way down right away and flow stops.  The second or so is the lag time for the pressure switch to start the pump. 

    If you have a bladder tank, try pressurizing the tank (via the schrader valve, like a tire valve) to the correct air pressure.  If not a bladder tank, drain till water level is low and you get about 1/2 air in tank.

    Worst case your bladder in the pressure tank is kaput, new tank needed.

    1. gordsco | Nov 29, 2009 05:07am | #2

      I have plenty of water before the pump comes on. There is a momentary, say 2 second stop in flow when the pump kicks in.

      I replaced the pressure tank 6 years ago.

      I assumed the loss of water when the pump engages was backflow towards the well.  

      1. gfretwell | Nov 29, 2009 06:58am | #3

        It can also be a shaky pressure switch that doesn't pull in soon enough. You can watch the gauge and see what is happening. Open the valve just a crack so the pressure comes down slowly. When you see it drop suddenly to zero, that is your precharge pressure. The pump should have cut in by then.I have my pressure switches on quick disconnects and the wires are on a plug. That way I can have a known good spare that I can swap out in less than a minute. That is handy when it craps out in the middle of a shower.

  2. DanH | Nov 29, 2009 07:35am | #4

    What you describe doesn't make a lot of sense. Waterlogged tank is the first thought that comes to mind, but not 100% consistent with your description.

    There should be a gauge on the tank. You should observe that as the water runs down and the pump kicks in, to see what's happening. If the pressure continues to drop for a few seconds after the pump comes on it could be that the pump is somehow losing its prime and needs to self-prime before it can rebuild pressure. But I can only imagine that happening if there is a check valve between tank and pump, and that would not be normal -- usually the only check valve in a shallow well is a "foot valve" at the bottom of the well pipe.

    This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us to live in.  --Theodore Roosevelt
    1. dude | Nov 29, 2009 12:58pm | #5

      Tank pressure is normally 2 lbs less than pump cut in pressre when system is at 0 pressure ( make sure gauge is good )

  3. HootOwl | Nov 29, 2009 06:31pm | #6

    Interesting.

    A couple questions to help picture what type of well setup you have -

    Sounds like you have a shallow well jet-pump in that the pump is in the basement.

    Does the supply line/inlet line from the well enter the bottom or top of your pressure tank? (Or somewhere in between the bottom and the top?)

    Where does the 'output/oulet' line to the house exit the tank? Same place/location as the inlet line to the tank?

    How far from the well to the pressure tank?

    Is the pressure tank galvanized or painted? (Painted would indicate a bladder-type tank and in that instance, the supply line would almost certainly enter the bottom, not the top or side of the tank.)

    Can you 'easily' disconnect the supply line from the pump to the pressure tank ?..... to see/determine if water arrives immediately when the pump kicks in or if there's air first and then water in a few seconds. If there's a delay in the delivery of water with this line disconnected, it likey means that your check-valve/foot-valve down in the well has failed and is allowing the line to empty itself back down into the well each time the pump stops. Or......you may have a check-valve right by the pump itself and that has failed.

    Both a bladder type tank and a single-compartment galvy tank can be 'pre-charged'.  Both will benefit from doing so as regards draw-down - the amount of water you get without the pump needing to kick back in.  The only functional difference between pre-charging these two types of tanks (in the vast majority of situations) is that the established air-head from doing so will last much longer with a bladder-type tank because the air is separated from the water inside the tank and consequently it doesn't get absorbed by the water over time.

    To pre-charge either type of tank requires that you turn off the pump and completely drain the pressure tank from somewhere near the bottom of said tank (nearby union of similar if your tank isn't equipped with a dedicated drain for that purpose.)  Then you pre-charge the tank to approx. 2 psi less than the kick-in pressure of your particular range of pressure switch.  IOW, if you're running a 30-50 switch, you would pre-charge to 28 psi.  This is done thru the Schrader/tire-valve located somewhere on the tank or its associated plumbing. Once that's done, turn on the well pump again.  (If it fails to start it means that you put a little too much air in the tank.  Simply depress that Schrader valve until the pump kicks in and maybe let out just a tad more air.)     

    (IF you have a setup where the inlet and outlet of the tank are not the same or the inlet and outlet are both on the side of a galvy tank, but using different holes, the pre-charge procedure will vary a bit.  If that's the case I'll try to explain how to do that.)    

    Not sure at this point exactly what your problem is/might be (without having more info about your particular well setup), so without that.......will suggest that you first try the tank disconnect to determine if there is a lag in the actual water delivery from the well......and if there isn't......then try re-charging the airhead and see what you've got. 

    (A torn bladder will usually/frequently result in exactly the opposite problem you're having - water available from faucets,etc.....only if the pump is running.) 



    Edited 11/29/2009 10:38 am ET by HootOwl

    1. DanH | Nov 29, 2009 06:56pm | #7

      Also, one pipe or two running from the pump to the well?
      This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us to live in.  --Theodore Roosevelt

      1. HootOwl | Nov 29, 2009 08:15pm | #8

        True.  I just assumed a shallow-well jet-pump cause of the depth of the well.

        Might be right....might be wrong.  :-)

        Also just occurred to me that he may have a situation where the inlet and/or outlet lines are hooked up to the 'side' of a galvy tank, the well produces air-entrained water....... and the air-volume control is malfunctioning....leaving him with a very borderline air-logged tank situation. Pressure switch currently trips just as the tank is depleted of available water.......and water doesn't flow/can't flow again to the house until more water is put back in to bring the level up to where the outlet pipe exits the tank.  

        If that's the case........replacing the current air-volume control with a new one or removing the guckus from this one might be the ticket. 

        Edited 11/29/2009 12:40 pm ET by HootOwl

        1. DanH | Nov 29, 2009 09:58pm | #9

          Of course, usually the AVC fails the other way, and you get a waterlogged tank. But either failure is possible, I suppose.
          This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us to live in.  --Theodore Roosevelt

          1. HootOwl | Nov 29, 2009 11:17pm | #10

            Agreed, most usually the other way around.

            However, I've encountered several galvy tanks that were air-logged over the years from air-entrained water.... due to a clogged up orifice on the AVC which can't then breathe/relieve to atmosphere.  If more air is introduced with each pumping cycle than the amount of air that gets digested by the water...eventually the tank becomes air-logged. 

            Wells that produce air-entrained water, of course, would not be appropriate candidates for a bladder type tank.  Gotta stick to a galvy with an AVC.    

            Which brings to mind another possibility.  Perhaps he has a hole in the supply pipe(s) down in the well (above the foot-valve, if there is one down there) and that is what is causing/adding to... this water delivery delay.  Would likely be fairly easy & quick to assess all this stuff on site, but from afar.....not so much.  

            Edited 11/29/2009 3:25 pm ET by HootOwl

  4. Novy | Nov 29, 2009 11:20pm | #11

     I think you should pack it in and move to the city..............

     

    On a hill by the harbour

  5. gordsco | Nov 30, 2009 02:08pm | #12

    Thank you for the detailed description.

    The well is stacked stone, 3' in dia/ 24' deep and is about 30' from the house.

    The water line from the well enters the basement and is connected directly to a Myers 1/3 hp pump. The start /stop is 30/60. The line goes to a Tee connection at the bottom of the pressure tank. The pressure tank is relatively new(6yrs) and has a bladder.

    Watching the gauge on the pump when it starts, the pressure drops slowly to 30 then the needle immediately falls to 0 and the pump kicks in.

    I will try the disconnect to see if there is a delay at the pump.

    Thanks again.

    Gord

     

    1. DanH | Nov 30, 2009 04:13pm | #13

      You say "the pressure drops slowly to 30 then the needle immediately falls to 0 and the pump kicks in".If it occurs in that order -- 30 => 0 => pump starts -- then that would be typical of a bladder-type tank where the bladder pressure was higher than the ON setting of the pressure switch.
      This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us to live in.  --Theodore Roosevelt

      1. billzbz | Nov 30, 2009 06:21pm | #14

        Check your pressure switch nipple.  Galvanized nipples gunk-up and the diaphram in the pressure switch may be gunked up too (happened to me this summer).  If gunked up the pressure switch does not know when to turn pump on or off.  Use brass nipples.

    2. HootOwl | Nov 30, 2009 09:20pm | #15

      Both Dan's and Billz's posts are sound advice for what you describe.

      I don't 'think' you probably need to detach the supply line this time to determine the problem judging from your operational description, but no harm should come from doing so.  

      I would suggest draining the pressure tank completely, recharging to proper pre-charge (2 psi or so less than kick-in on the pressure switch) and then see what you have.  

      If that fails to remedy the situation, then I'd next turn to the potential that Billz suggested.  Could be guckus on the PS that is fouling operation a bit.....or....you might need a new switch to smooth out performance/remedy the situation.  Sometimes just a cleaning of that pressure switch diaphragm AND the pipe that it's mounted on will do the deed, sometimes not.  You'll need to remove the PS to clean the diaphragm and the pipe.  Turn off the current to the line feeding the PS, take note of exactly where each particular wire is on the switch, detach them and unscrew the device. Carefully clean out any visible guckus and remount. 

      The fact that you say your range is 30-60 currently makes me think that either -

       1- someone intentionally altered the factory setting for some reason

       2- that the switch adjustment screws have vibrated out of the factory settings

       3-  that the internal switch parts are failing / are worn out

       4- that there is guckus present which is impeding normal operation. 

      The normal factory spread on these things is 20 psi.  Normally available with settings of 20-40, 30-50 or 40-60....or thereabouts in actual operation....if relying upon a pressure gauge display. 

      PS- Make sure you drain the pressure tank before removing the PS or you're gonna get mighty wet. 

      If you need a new pressure switch..........any decently stocked hardware store should have them.....or a big-box. About $20.  Since we don't know what your orignal settings were on that switch, I'd suggest getting a 30-50.

      Edited 11/30/2009 1:37 pm ET by HootOwl

  6. McPlumb | Dec 01, 2009 01:07am | #16

    Hootowl and friends have got you covered on this in fine style.

    Only other thing I've seen is, that wasn't mentioned, when a tank is water logged the pump cycles more this can cause damage to the points on the switch. This arcing will make the points stick or become carboned and not make good contact. Best fix in this case is correct the other problems and change the switch.

    Most bladder tanks only have a 5 year warranty.

    Good Luck  

    1. DanH | Dec 01, 2009 02:06am | #17

      But the suspicion is that the tank is "airlogged" rather than waterlogged. When the pressure drops suddenly from 30 to zero it indicates that the bladder has filled the tank and can expand no further.
      This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us to live in.  --Theodore Roosevelt

      1. McPlumb | Dec 01, 2009 03:25am | #18

        Suspicion is the key word. There is no mention of any thing by the OP that would indicate this is the problem.

        Most common causes for the symptoms mentioned

        1 water logged pressure tank

        2 mineral build up, not allowing the switch to rapidly sense the pressure change

        3 carbon build up on the points, delaying the contact

        1. DanH | Dec 01, 2009 03:47am | #19

          Did you read his most recent description? Pressure drops to 30, then goes quickly to zero, then the pump comes on.
          This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us to live in.  --Theodore Roosevelt

          1. gfretwell | Dec 01, 2009 06:36am | #20

            I bet a pressure switch fixes it.

          2. DanH | Dec 01, 2009 06:51am | #21

            Or just tweaking the pressure switch up or the tank precharge down.
            This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us to live in.  --Theodore Roosevelt

          3. gfretwell | Dec 01, 2009 08:35am | #22

            From my experience of living with a well for 25 years, if you have to adjust a switch that had been working, you will be back.

          4. DanH | Dec 01, 2009 02:54pm | #23

            It could have been on the hairy edge for years and something drifted slightly.
            This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us to live in.  --Theodore Roosevelt

          5. gfretwell | Dec 01, 2009 08:26pm | #24

            Usually when these switches drift it is because the operating plate is worn and they will never really be reliable after that
            If you don't mind screwing with them, go for it but I don't like being out of water at bed time or when I am getting ready to go somewhere.
            Like I said in the other note, I have my switches on quick disconnects so I can swap one out in less than a minute. I still put a new one in when I have problems with one that had been working.
            Usually I have more problem with bladder tanks than switches.

          6. DanH | Dec 02, 2009 04:34am | #25

            It would only take a half pound of "drift" if the unit were on the hairy edge to begin with. Or the "drift" could be due to sediment accumulating in the bottom of the tank, or a change in the temperature of the water.
            This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us to live in.  --Theodore Roosevelt

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