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West System

quicksilver | Posted in Construction Techniques on May 30, 2005 07:05am

We’ve been using westsystem with 407 filler to fill and even float some needy areas in our moulding and flat stock work for about two years now. Of course the painter comes back over or uses in other areas bondo and then I’m sure even durabond gets put into the mix somewhere. Any way we always get a few call backs where the bond between the paint and the fill has broken. Making for an expensive repair. The work had all been primed before finish coated. Any insights? Is the epoxy worth it? It sands beatifully, the 409 filler sands even better.

Edited 5/30/2005 12:07 pm ET by quicksilver


Edited 5/30/2005 1:19 pm ET by quicksilver

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  1. BillBrennen | May 30, 2005 07:35pm | #1

    Quicksilver,

    It is not clear from your post if the adhesion problem is definitely between your thickened epoxy and the paint, or possibly with other fillers. If Durabond is being used, I can imagine a scenario where it gets painted too soon, and then the water deeper down rises up to lift off the paint film.

    Is all of this on interior woodwork? What sort of primer/paint is being used? Give us some more info and we can probably figure it out.

    I've used West/407 under oil paint, and never a problem with adhesion, either to the substrate or to the patch.

    Bill

    1. quicksilver | May 30, 2005 08:29pm | #6

      It is interior wood work and oil primer. Being that no one seems to have had any problems with the epoxy I'm going to chalk it up to the other fillers. Although I have never had problems with either. I never really stressed to the painter "no other fillers". Should I? I'm pretty sure that the painter, I'm married to her, only used the durabond post prime coat and the primed over again to do only a fine final float. When the bond breaks it seems like its whole paint skin. I've had this happen in about five or six spots, 10 to 15 sq inches.

      1. Piffin | May 30, 2005 10:10pm | #7

        Sounds like could be dust skein on the surface. is the painterette using a dust removal technique before painting an area? 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        1. quicksilver | May 30, 2005 10:37pm | #8

          Possibly not although she is big on tack clothes, I'll have to give her a little sh#t tonight.

      2. jrnbj | May 31, 2005 05:15am | #12

        Repeat after me....Durabond is not a wood filler.....

        1. quicksilver | May 31, 2005 12:57pm | #13

          I know. That's hard to get through to others.

  2. Danusan11 | May 30, 2005 07:38pm | #2

    Are you wiping down the fill areas before sanding the epoxy fills. Their is a wax that forms with a epoxy called (amine blush sp?). If you don't clean the epoxy after its harden, when you sand you just rub the wax into the surface, which could be why your not getting a good bond.

    1. RayMoore2G | May 30, 2005 07:48pm | #3

      That is an interesting tidbit that I never picked up in 20 years of working with west systems. The problems I've had with it related to thermal expansion. The epoxy is a plastic and will expand more than the substrate with heat and shrink more with cold.

      1. Danusan11 | May 30, 2005 08:01pm | #5

        Your right on about the thermal expansion, it is especially a problem if you fill over a countersinked screw and that area recieves alot of direct sun. Lots of times if I have to use screws to hold a piece, during set up I will wax screw, so it can be removed after epoxy sets.

  3. Piffin | May 30, 2005 07:59pm | #4

    We use the Minwax two part wood filler that is similar to bondo, it sands and holds paints well. I have used the west foir making up special fillers, but find it much more trouble.

    Durabond needs a different primer than wood and bondo type products though. I would definitely not use it on wood flat stock.

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

  4. alias | May 31, 2005 12:34am | #9

    quick- to be alittle picky there isn' t in my memory a 409 filler there is a 410 i believe thats brown/tan. the best all- around filler's/ adhesive that west system has in my very humble opinion 404/406 and for a second choice 403 . they span the best array of applications, very versatile . i'll jump on board with piffin, with the use of minwax wood filler/ and west system wipe it down with any number of solvents after it's dryed than scuff it up with a 120 grit than prime with my preference is zinsser gold two coats, than paint my again preference is oil based. when used in fairing and laminating etc. it is imperative to mix very well and than let it sit for five minutes than mix well again. here are some factors to watch out for temperature below 50 it slows down and the curing charateristics change, dont leave to long in u.v rays there is also a problem. and make sure all around the fill the moisture is as dry as possible, if necessary use a dryer to hurry things along. i use a trinity of west system, abatron and min-wax wood filler and so far it done me well. the advantage to using the higher number (407,410) is just the ease of sanding the lower that has amore complex densities and applications therefore it is more difficult to sand and is tougher . drys harder than the other, one thing i've also noticed is the hardner turns red that is from to much moisture impregnation. the redder the more moisture, i am very careful with putting a membrane. teflon tape on threads and tripled up wax paper work well when it just sits. it's diificult to keep it from not turning but the wax paper slows it down. slainte' .....b

    .." He who makes a beast out of one's self, get's rid of the pain of being a man"



    Edited 5/30/2005 6:06 pm ET by the bear

    1. quicksilver | May 31, 2005 01:35am | #10

      You could right but I could of swore it was 409 I was using brown/tan fairing compound. I had some trouble in the past with 405. We ran out of 407 and one of the guys thought that it looked the same and didn't realize looks aren't everything. He used it to fill some shelf pin holes (made with my Festool rig) that were deemed not true to the period he was trying to emulate. Anyway the 405 proved to be harder than the birch veneer, and was difficult to sort out. I am by no means an expert with the stuff, but it has served my well mostly. My aim is to take mostly out of that sentence. Thanks for you input.

      1. alias | May 31, 2005 03:23am | #11

        for interior wood fill like a shelf pin hole i would steer clear of epoxy and go with the min-wax..... slainte' be well b.." He who makes a beast out of one's self, get's rid of the pain of being a man"

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