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Wet Cedar

DeepCove | Posted in General Discussion on August 29, 2007 06:00am

OK. Go easy on me. I just signed in.

I just finished a cedar fence railing that the owners insist I paint white. The paint store assured me that their latex product would do the trick. The can even said no primer needed and two coats would do. As the owners wanted it done, I couldn’t come back in six months to paint after it had dried out. And IT WAS WET! So after three coats I still have bleed thru. Now, I’ve even had someone tell me that white being the worst colour possible to put on exterior wood, even oil will show the bleed thru. All things said and done, I told the owners I would return next mid summer and throw on a coat or two after it is thoroughly dry. Should I even bother with the latex again or go with oil? I hate oil. Opinions?

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Replies

  1. FHB Editor
    JFink | Aug 29, 2007 06:26pm | #1

    If you want to prevent bleed through apply a fairly heavy cut of shellac, then apply your paint over that. Oil is a pain to work with, but it is probably still the best for your situation.

    Justin Fink - FHB Editorial

    "Everybody wants to know what I’m on...

     

    What I'm on? I’m on my bike, busting my ### 6 hours a day…

     

    ...What are you on?"

     

    - Lance Armstrong

    1. Piffin | Aug 30, 2007 02:03pm | #4

      The shellac based Kilz is better than plain shellac, IMO, because it has binders to 'glue' it to the wood as well as the sealer properties of the shellac to prevent bleed through. 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      1. FHB Editor
        JFink | Aug 30, 2007 04:27pm | #5

        good clarification Piffin, I've used the shellac based kilz (or maybe B.I.N.) many times with good results. As a bonus, I really like the way shellac smells!Justin Fink - FHB Editorial

        "Everybody wants to know what I’m on...

         

        What I'm on? I’m on my bike, busting my ### 6 hours a day…

         

        ...What are you on?"

         

        - Lance Armstrong

      2. User avater
        BillHartmann | Aug 31, 2007 12:12am | #7

        Kilz is oil based.It is BIN that is pigmented shellaced based..
        .
        A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

        1. Piffin | Aug 31, 2007 01:44am | #8

          OK, OK I should have taken three steps over to that shelf to check all those cans to see which was which first...;) 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

  2. ajs | Aug 30, 2007 06:28am | #2

    I am putting up a cedar fence and gate and I found this reference to information in the Western Red Cedar Lumber Association's installation guide. http://www.wrcla.org/pdf/WRCLA_Guide_to_Finishing.pdf Page 11 gives info on painting. Their recommendation for unpainted wood is a coat of water repellant preservative, then a coat of oil based primer, then a coat of latex paint. You might be in touch with them to see if they have a recommendation for your situation.

  3. Piffin | Aug 30, 2007 01:59pm | #3

    ajs is right of course, but that won't help you now that you have latex already on.

    cedar is hard to prevent extractives from showing, and white makes it more noticeable. You need a primersealer that is designed for cedar or Kilz, then more latex finsh coat.

    Oil would have been your worst choice on wet wood. Latex will let moisture pass thru, but oil seals it, so the finish paint would have blistered right off as the water came out of the wood.

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. DeepCove | Aug 30, 2007 11:23pm | #6

      Ya, that's what I thought I'd be doing next summer, Piffin. A good coat of Primer/Sealer and another coat of the latex. Even though the Olympic stain I used specifically said that primer was not necessary on new wood. But it did specify 'dry' wood. But, like I said, the client didn't want to wait.

  4. User avater
    McDesign | Aug 31, 2007 03:00am | #9

    Gotta' second the BIN recommendation - it will stop bleeds, and smeels nice.

    Forrest

    1. hvtrimguy | Sep 01, 2007 05:49am | #12

      just a quick thing - I know there is a bin specifically formulated for bleed through. it's label is brown - regular bin's label is red, and the water based bin is blue. Go to a good paint store."it aint the work I mind,
      It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latini

      1. User avater
        BillHartmann | Sep 01, 2007 04:36pm | #13

        There is no such thing as brown label BIN.BIN is made by Zinser.Now ZINSER does make a two brown labelled OIL based primers. Cocer Stain and High Hide Cover stain.http://www.zinsser.com/subcat.asp?CategoryID=1
        .
        .
        A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

        1. hvtrimguy | Sep 03, 2007 03:11am | #16

          cover stain is the one I was remebering. It worked nice on some cedar posts I painted. still look good today."it aint the work I mind,
          It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latini

  5. User avater
    Sphere | Aug 31, 2007 10:44pm | #10

    You knuckled under to an uninformed Homeowner, or did they KNOW it was sopping wet?

    Either way, it is nothing but a disservice to themm and a waste of time and money,topaint something you KNOW will fail.

    I don't get where you let them "insist" on wasting your time and someones $$.  I'd very politly convince them that for me to paint something that is not ready, is something I won't do.

    I digress, it's your baby to go back and do over, I'd feel like an azz having to return and try to "make pretty" what I allowed someone else direct me to screw up.

    Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

    "If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"

    1. User avater
      dieselpig | Sep 04, 2007 03:08am | #20

      OK. Go easy on me. I just signed in.

       

      Well.... so much for THAT!   LOL.....View Image

      1. User avater
        Sphere | Sep 04, 2007 03:16am | #21

        That was just begging for it..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

        "If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"

  6. User avater
    user-246028 | Sep 01, 2007 02:35am | #11

    I hate to tell you this but if your are painting wet cedar the thing will be rotted out by next year or the year after. Any time you lock moisture into wood with paint or a sealer you create the perfect environment for rot.

    Some times you just have to tell your customer no. If they insist it be painted then they can hire a painter to do it. If you paint it, when the railing rots out the only thing the customer will blame you for the rotting railing. Your name and reputation is more valuable than one job.

    Dave

    1. fingersandtoes | Sep 02, 2007 07:20am | #14

      I have had very good luck using a water based solid colour stain on wet cedar. It seems to let the wood continue to dry, and six months later the areas that have lost finish are not bubbled - the stain has just disappeared. Very easy to re-coat.

  7. splintergroupie | Sep 02, 2007 01:02pm | #15

    Shellac or alcohol-based products are NOT suitable as an exterior primer.

    Let the fence dry out completely, then use an oil-based primer. Or switch to a solid white stain...lots less hassle. Where i live, you could repaint in a month or so, but you'd need to fill out your location in your profile for us to have an idea what your weather is like.

    Parroting Sphere...you're the expert not the clients. You may as well act the diva/divo.

    1. fingersandtoes | Sep 03, 2007 10:34am | #17

      "you'd need to fill out your location in your profile for us to have an idea what your weather is like. "

      He lives in Deep Cove. It's pretty close to the ferry. Does that help?

      1. splintergroupie | Sep 04, 2007 12:02am | #18

        It's the langauge barrier: i was thinking about Deep Cove located between Ogee and Dentil. ;^)I googled DC...beautiful, beautiful location. Gonna take a while to dry out, eh?

        1. fingersandtoes | Sep 04, 2007 03:02am | #19

          Yeah, just down the road near the ferry. As you can probably tell, living on an island off the West Coast we tend to get a bit solipsistic. For the East Coast version, see Piffin.

          It started to rain at noon and will likely stop in May.

          1. splintergroupie | Sep 04, 2007 04:06am | #24

            <<It started to rain at noon and will likely stop in May.>>We've been on fire since early July with no end in sight. At this rate, there's going to be some real dingey snow.When did "solipsistic" get off the list of ###banned#### words??? <G>

    2. DeepCove | Sep 06, 2007 04:00pm | #25

      BC coast is my location and Solid stain is what I've been using.

      1. splintergroupie | Sep 06, 2007 07:43pm | #26

        I googled your location...you have NO complaints! <G>You've been using solid stain? Ok, that's much better for you and that's not the same as "paint" - which we take to mean film-forming, which fostered the speculation about sealing in moisture and rotting the cedar.With a stain undercoat, just allow the cedar to get the tannins out of its system, then put another coat or two of stain over the previous coats. Rinse the dust off before staining again, but if you pressure wash you risk new tannins being brought to the surface. (Voice of experience here.)I don't know how long it will take your cedar to stop bleeding since your climate is much, much wetter than mine. Wet Coasters??? Some guidance for this fellow???

        Edited 9/6/2007 12:43 pm by splintergroupie

      2. fingersandtoes | Sep 07, 2007 08:02am | #29

        They think it's easy living here. My best West Coast quote from the last few months came from a carpenter in Sooke on the impending birth of his first child:

        "If it's a girl, I'm going to name her Autumn. It's my favorite month"

  8. grpphoto | Sep 04, 2007 03:43am | #22

    I wouldn't discourage the use of shellac, but the best deal will still be to use Kinser's oil-based stain-killing primer.

    George Patterson



    Edited 9/3/2007 8:44 pm ET by grpphoto

    1. splintergroupie | Sep 04, 2007 04:04am | #23

      Here's a one-year-old picture of my shop with drop lap siding taken down to bare wood, primed with a shellac-based primer and top-coated with latex. I was in a hurry and was told by the salesman this would work just fine! It began peeling almost immediately...

  9. mesic | Sep 07, 2007 07:39am | #27

    What's going on here? I'm laughing so loud I'm afraid it'll waken DW. Listening to all these professionals mess up and not one making a correction. I don't know nothing about the subject but ---

    Wet is what a piece of cedar would be if it fell into the river.

    Green is what it would be if it was a tree recently without being properly dried yet.

    OK, somebody should be able to make a funny out of that. We'll see.

    1. fingersandtoes | Sep 07, 2007 07:56am | #28

      Good point, although sometimes around here it is hard to tell. Lots of lumber arrives on site and is stored wet. It has often been dryer at some time in its life than it is when I install it. Green? Wet? It's a toss up.

    2. User avater
      Sphere | Sep 07, 2007 01:15pm | #30

      Could be a "Both/and" situation.  Green wood can "feel" dry or appear dry, Wet wood can be wet KILN dried ( from rain etc.).

      Bound moisture and free moisture would be more accurate in detailing the issue,  Free moisture is water that will evaporate quickly no matter the source, Bound, is slower to leave the prison, being locked up in the cells.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

      "If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"

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